AVTAK starring Dalton as 007?

Since general consensus appears to be that Roger Moore should have exited the series after his "All Time High" in OP, I have a question: do you think AVTAK would've been better if Timothy Dalton had played Bond?
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Comments

  • Willie GarvinWillie Garvin Posts: 1,412MI6 Agent
    edited November 2005
    Only if the screenplay had been completely rewritten from top to bottom retaining the title and nothing else.As it stands,AVTAK is one of the worst SPs in the series.It's own author,Richard Maibaum,couldn't stand it.
  • Lazenby880Lazenby880 LondonPosts: 525MI6 Agent
    edited April 2003
    By definition if Dalton played 007 in AVTAK it would be better. It would probably have been re-tailored towards Dalton's style as Bond as The Living Daylights was, but for it to have been as good as that movie it would have to have been re-tailored dramatically.
  • HardyboyHardyboy Posts: 5,906Chief of Staff
    No doubt Bond would have been tougher, the jokes would have been toned down, and it would have seemed more like Dalton was performing his own stunts; but as others have pointed out, he'd still have a lousy screenplay, poor production values, and Tanya "Screech" Roberts to deal with.
    Vox clamantis in deserto
  • bobfagent 004bobfagent 004 Posts: 55MI6 Agent
    NO WAY! Roger Moore is so much better, because he gives us comedy, and we all need comedy! I would never want Dallton for AVTAK. He shows no comedy whatsoever, and I always thought he portrayed Bond as a vicious killer in LTK. I know he was avenging Felix, but it was still brutal, setting Sanchez on fire!
  • Steve Rush DI5 AgentSteve Rush DI5 Agent Oxfordshire, Great BritainPosts: 59MI6 Agent
    Perhaps if they'd gone back to Fleming's original story and done a modernised 'short' for TV, or something, as a way of introducing TD (a great Bond, by the way, IMO), we could have had something really special!

    As I have posted elsewhere, earlier on, I think TD should have had the FYEO gig, where the only changes required would have been to the pre-credit sequence, the awful Thatcher send-up at the end, and the Aston replacing the Lotus.

    In my opinion, that is... :D
  • Prince Kamal KhanPrince Kamal Khan Posts: 277MI6 Agent
    It appears that the general consensus is that a AVTAK starring Dalton would've been better but only if AVTAK's main failing(its script) had been massively rewritten. I thoroughly concur. Here's my admittedly very rough and raw attempt to try to come up with a revision for my dream/"alternate universe" AVTAK:

    Pre title sequence: Introduce Dalton as the new 007 in a mini-adventure that has nothing or little to do with the rest of the picture(in the style of the teasers for GF, TB, FYEO and OP).

    Title Sequence:(I would've retained the Duran Duran song, one of the few highlights of the actual film)

    Albert R. Broccoli presents

    Timothy Dalton as James Bond 007 in Ian Fleming's

    FROM A VIEW TO A KILL
    (I would have restored the full original Fleming title)

    starring

    Fiona Fullerton as Pola Ivanova

    Patrick Macnee as Sir Godfrey Tibbett

    Alison Doody as Mary Ann Russell

    Christopher Walken as Max Zorin

    and Tanya Roberts in a very small 5 minute appearance as the "sacrificial lamb" Jenny Flex

    Movie opens proper: The first 20-30 mins would be a relatively faithful adaptation of the actual short story "From A View To A Kill". The SHAPE driver's murder would appear on screen and 007's subsequent investigation. He would be assigned to work with fellow agents Tibbett and lovely Mary Ann Russell(the girl in the original story), and would impersonate the SHAPE driver and infiltrate the Russian spy gang in the forest. The head assassin(who Bond is sure he has seen before) of this spy gang gets away and Bond finds a stash of Zorin microchips among the KGB spy ring materials. After a brief dalliance with the gorgeous Mary Ann, Bond reports this information to M. Bond would learn that Zorin industries are a private British defense contractor that is developing microchips that are impervious to the magnetic pulse of a nuclear explosion but they've not been put in use by the British defense systems yet. Zorin would still be of East German origin but he defected to England, became a U.K. citizen and then spent several years in New York where he made his millions. (This would explain Walken/Zorin's NY accent). M then sends Bond to investigate Zorin at a party his Chantilly estate. While there Bond meets and flirts with Zorin's mistress/secretary Jenny Flex(who Zorin brought from NY, also explaining her accent) Bond also runs into another lady at the party, his ex-lover, ballerina/KGB agent Pola Ivanova. After some brief flirting and catching up on old times, Pola mysteriously vanishes. To get more info on Zorin, Bond starts romancing Jenny which Zorin learns about and of course has her promptly executed(a la Corinne Dufour). Bond uses his gadgets to listen in on Zorin and his partner-in-crime whom he recognizes as the KGB assasin from the forest. Thru closer detection, Bond realizes that Pola and the KGB assassin are one and the same. Bond is caught spying and is captured by Zorin & put in some deathtrap from which of course he escapes but not without Zorin thinking he is dead.

    Bond continues his mission in pursuit of Pola to learn more about what she and Zorin are up to. The Siberian ski chase could be inserted here where Bond pursues her but ultimately rescues Pola from an avalanche(a la Bond and Elektra). After this experience, they "warm up" in a hot tub reminiscing about old times. As Bond gets more of the information on their plan, Pola doublecrosses Bond and he is again captured by Zorin. It turns out that Zorin and Pola are planning to cause a nuclear blast in outer space over the U.K. to, as Frederick Gray put it, "paralyze us at the Russian's mercy". This will be done after Zorin installs the "nuclear-explosion impervious" microchips(which of course won't be) in all of Britain's national defense systems. In the end, Bond of course thwarts Zorin and Pola's plans with the aid of Mary Ann who Bond ends up with in the final clinch. Tibbett would also have a larger role as Bond's ally and not be killed off and May Day(who belongs in a Roger Moore Bond film only) would not be around.
  • Willie GarvinWillie Garvin Posts: 1,412MI6 Agent
    Very good.A great improvement over what was actually filmed.;)

    W.G.
  • TGO_TGO_ Posts: 46MI6 Agent
    Well...it is feisable...if of course if the script had a top to bottom re-write. Prince Kamal - Your plot is intruguing. I may have to steal it for a script re-write. ;) I found AVTAK to be rather serious in its reproach, with small doses of humor. Ideally, Roger should have retired since Moonraker, but he was really pushing it in the 80's if you think about it.

    To answer your question...it might have been better. It might have been worse too.
  • lawrencelawrence Posts: 6MI6 Agent
    Amazing Prince Kamal !!! Your plots are definitely better than the AVTAK's. It will be remarkable if we add in the final explosive climax inside the mine where a whole US SWAT team raided it together with Bond. Zorin of course escaped in his hot air ballon with Dalton clinging to it (the James Bond theme playing in the background) leading to the final fist fight on top of the Golden Bridge :)) . That will be a real classic Bond ending.
  • JACKIEJACKIE Posts: 13MI6 Agent
    Prince, i think that you should seriously try and get a job at EON as a writer. Thats what the Bond series should have. And a vast improvement over the Goldfinger rip-off story.
  • The AnarchistThe Anarchist Posts: 34MI6 Agent
    Quoting JACKIE:Prince, i think that you should seriously try and get a job at EON as a writer. Thats what the Bond series should have. And a vast improvement over the Goldfinger rip-off story.

    I agree with that. You have indeed many talents!

    But back to topic, I enjoyed very much AVTAK and Roger, although looking way too old, was nice there. Go Roger, Go!! The story was a little bit cut rough, but overally, it was an excellent movie. Thand God for the French Traduction who makes sound Stacey Sutton as intelligent. I'd prefer a lighter tone on electronic chips than a complex diamonds-for-opium.
  • Walther PPKWalther PPK Posts: 180MI6 Agent
    I have often wondered myself what if Dalton was in AVTAK instead of Roger? In my mindseye the screen play would be written for his strong points, I would also retain the orideginal
    story as Fleming wrote as the starting point. Make Pola his love intrest, don't kill Tibbet, and make a new villian instead of Zorin. Also I would definatly not have Stacy Stutton in my version at all.
  • Red GrantRed Grant Posts: 147MI6 Agent
    Quoting Willie Garvin:Very good.A great improvement over what was actually filmed.;)

    W.G.

    No offence to Prince Kamal Kahns work, as it is good, and I would have enjoyed seeing it. (I too came up with an AVTAK plot somewhere on this site..) but we all know that a four year olds screenplay would have been better than what was filmed. I personally would have felt terrible if Dalton came in under AVTAK, not even his, or anyones talents could have saved this one.
  • Iona Havelock RIPIona Havelock RIP Posts: 38MI6 Agent
    I would keep Christopher Walken as biological freak Max Zorin.
    Tanya Roberts 'Stacey Sutton' character wouldn't be included.
    Grace Jones 'May Day' character wouldn't be included.
    Pola Ivanova (Fiona Fullerton) is excellent.
  • Prince Kamal KhanPrince Kamal Khan Posts: 277MI6 Agent
    edited April 2003
    Quoting The Anarchist:
    Quoting The Anarchist:
    Quoting JACKIE:
    Prince, i think that you should seriously try and get a job at EON as a writer. Thats what the Bond series should have. And a vast improvement over the Goldfinger rip-off story.

    I agree with that. You have indeed many talents!


    Thank all of you for compliments and feedback on my "alternate universe" AVTAK treatment. TGO, feel free to steal any of it you like. As I re-read over it I think I was probably "inspired by" Ian Fleming's Moonraker novel(Soviet-backed, German-born villain is trusted with British defense but is in fact planning to destroy it). In re-reading the original "From A View To A Kill" short story I've decided to make a change, I would upgrade Patrick Macnee's Sir Godfrey Tibbett from an agent to head of Station F France and rename the character Wing Commander Rattray(Fleming's name for this character). I think that would have given Macnee a more dignified role.

    I considered the idea of making Fiona Fullerton's Pola Ivanova the heroine(and she definitely would have been a much better one than Tanya Roberts' Stacy Sutton) but I thought that the idea of Bond teaming up with a lovely KGB agent would be too similar to TSWLM. In fact when I first saw AVTAK I initially thought Miss Fullerton was playing the Anya Amasova character. So I decided to tweak the formula and have viewers 1st think Bond and Pola would be allies but have them turn out to be enemies instead. Remember, this would have been 10 yrs. before GE's Xenia Onatopp and the series hadn't had a sexy Russian villainess yet(unless you count Rosa Klebb).

    Since nothing except the Paris setting was used in the film version, I hope TPTB go back to the "From A View To A Kill" story and use the source material in a future Bond film, including the gorgeous Mary Ann Russell character.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent Speeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
    YES. Of course the writers would have to obliterate that hacky GF themed script and start new. I think it would've been a tremendous success.
    Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"

    Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
    -Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
  • Mr BoldmanMr Boldman Posts: 10MI6 Agent
    Perhaps, rather than burdening poor Tim with a potentially disasterous debut in an otherwise unchanged AVTAK, another option should be considered. Perhaps the question shouldn't be "would AVTAK have been better if TD had played Bond?" but "would it have been better if AVTAK hadn't been made at all?"
  • i expect u2 diei expect u2 die LondonPosts: 583MI6 Agent
    edited November 2005
    In terms of "what if Bond was played by ... in this film", OHMSS gets all the attention with people pondering what it would have been like with Connery. I had never considered AVTAK with Dalton but now I do, I certainly think the film would be much improved because Moore was probably what I disliked the most in AVTAK with his grey hair and "old man" look (he was, after all, becoming an old man!). But I agree that without major changes to the screenplay etc, a lousy debut for Dalton could have been disasterous.
  • JennyFlexFanJennyFlexFan Posts: 1,497MI6 Agent
    edited November 2005
    I LOVE AVTAK! I don't think Dalton would've been good in the roll because the movie is too light-hearted for his "darker Bond". Stacey's helplessness could be toned down if it was rewritten, I'd keep May Day, but I don't like how Prince Kamal killed off Jenny Flex! (Great story though). Also I hate Pola very much so I don't want her included in any rewrite, in a rewrite she should be taken OUT! Like Doody's larger part though in this version. Let Tibbet live. I like Zorin as a villain definetly keep Mayday. I could actually see Brosnan doing this one more than Dalton could (but then Brosnan couldn't do Goldeneye due to Dalton's subpar movies especially License to Kill and that one is one of the greatest if not a Bond classic of all time! But in yor rewrite you also say Pola's a villain... I wouldn't mind that as long as she dies in a creative way. That last part though about the nuclear blast over the UK is a little bit Goldeneye-esque and as much as I love Goldeneye, it's the same thing AVTAK allegedly did to GOLDfinger.
  • TheSaintTheSaint Posts: 18MI6 Agent
    Over 2½ years on, I've read Prince Kamal Khan's idea—my gosh, it is good. Damned good.
  • RogermooreseyebrowsRogermooreseyebrows Posts: 21MI6 Agent
    The less Dalton films the better IMO

    Moore was perfect for the role, Dalton simply would not have worked in AVTAK
  • IcePakIcePak Perth, Western AustraliaPosts: 177MI6 Agent
    A lot of people critisize AVTAK because of Moore's age. Sure, he was getting on a bit, but he played the role as good as his previous efforts.

    The main problem with AVTAK is the rehashed Goldfinger script. I like your alternative script Prince Kamal Kahn, but I think keeping MayDay would be better, because she is an interesting character - just don't put her in bed with Bond, because as we all saw in the film, it didn't really work.

    If the script had been better, I could see Dalton debuting as Bond in this film. The fact that the current film turned out decent enough as it is, is because Moore had experience carrying Bond films with weak, rehashed stories (Moonraker anyone?), and I think Moore deserves more credit than he gets for this film.
    1. CR 2. OHMSS 3. GE 4. TLD 5. OP 6. FRwL 7. FYEO
    8. TMwtGG 9. AVtaK 10. TSWLM 11. SF 12. LtK 13. TND 14. YOLT
    15. NTtD 16. MR 17. LaLD 18. GF 19. SP 20. DN 21. TB
    22. TWiNE 23. DAD 24. QoS 25. DaF
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 22,334MI6 Agent
    bobfagent 004 wrote:

    "...he (Dalton) portrayed Bond as a vicious killer in LTK. I know he was avenging Felix, but it was still brutal, setting Sanchez on fire!"

    You sound as if it was a bad thing!
  • Moore Not LessMoore Not Less Posts: 1,095MI6 Agent
    I agree completely. In fact, Roger Moore should have been in both TLD and LTK.

    No, as much as I love dear Rog, it was clear in AVTAK that his time was up, not in terms of his acting, but in terms of his look and age. He had a great innings as Bond. In hindsight, it would have been better if he had retired after OP. Then perhaps, Timothy Dalton would have taken over in AVTAK.
  • jbfreakjbfreak Posts: 144MI6 Agent
    I am one to think that AVTAK would have been better if TD had entered the role of Bond to star in it. IMO Roger was just too old looking, and definately too old to go on in TLD and LTK as others have said.
    I would have loved to have seen Tim in AVTAK...just as long as he didn't have to sleep with MayDay!!!
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    jbfreak wrote:
    I am one to think that AVTAK would have been better if TD had entered the role of Bond to star in it. IMO Roger was just too old looking, and definately too old to go on in TLD and LTK as others have said.
    I would have loved to have seen Tim in AVTAK...just as long as he didn't have to sleep with MayDay!!!
    I don't agree. IMO Dalton was the second worst Bond and AVTAL would have been even worst with DAlton than with Moore. No, the best situation would have been if Brosnan had done AVTAK, TLD and LTK.
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • Moore Not LessMoore Not Less Posts: 1,095MI6 Agent
    Dan Same wrote:
    IMO Dalton was the second worst Bond and AVTAL would have been even worst with DAlton than with Moore. No, the best situation would have been if Brosnan had done AVTAK, TLD and LTK.

    Supposing Pierce Brosnan had played Bond in AVTAK, TLD and LTK? My guess with this scenario is that it's quite probable he would have returned after the six year hiatus, but I don't believe that he would stayed on in the role until DAD. Seventeen years is an awful long time for one actor to inherit the role (legal problems or not) no matter how popular he is. I don't think Brosnan himself would have wanted to stay on that long anyway, he probably would have left after TND.
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    Supposing Pierce Brosnan had played Bond in AVTAK, TLD and LTK? My guess with this scenario is that it's quite probable he would have returned after the six year hiatus, but I don't believe that he would stayed on in the role until DAD. Seventeen years is an awful long time for one actor to inherit the role (legal problems or not) no matter how popular he is. I don't think Brosnan himself would have wanted to stay on that long anyway, he probably would have left after TND.

    As long as he stayed for TWINE, I'm not really concernd about DAD. It was one of the few Bond films that would have been terrible irrespective of who played Bond.
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • DoubleDeeDoubleDee Posts: 10MI6 Agent
    Number24 wrote:
    bobfagent 004 wrote:

    "...he (Dalton) portrayed Bond as a vicious killer in LTK. I know he was avenging Felix, but it was still brutal, setting Sanchez on fire!"

    You sound as if it was a bad thing!

    It IS a bad thing. Bond is not a cold-hearted killer.
    Well, actually, I think, it has been part of the Bond films. Bond killing Dent in Dr. No or Dr. Kaufman in TND or Elektra in TWINE or the fat henchman on the roof in TSWLM all happened in cold blood. I think there are even more examples for that. Furthermore, especially Sanchez' death scene in LTK was more in self-defense than the situations I mentioned above.
    The less Dalton films the better IMO

    Moore was perfect for the role, Dalton simply would not have worked in AVTAK

    I agree completely. In fact, Roger Moore should have been in both TLD and LTK.

    Well, quite honestly I liked Dalton a little better than Moore, so IMO, AVTAK would have been better, even with no script alterations.

    RM in TLD? I can't even imagine, how the opening sequence would have looked like, with good ol' Roger.

    DD
  • jbfreakjbfreak Posts: 144MI6 Agent
    Dan Same wrote:
    As long as he stayed for TWINE, I'm not really concernd about DAD. It was one of the few Bond films that would have been terrible irrespective of who played Bond.

    I do agree there. I don't think that any Bond could have redeemed DAD. Not that I am bashing it cuz there are others that are not in my list of favorites, but it needed some help.
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