Who's the villian?
HENDOO7
Posts: 30MI6 Agent
After recently watching TWINE and TLD, it has just struck me that there are 2 villains in both movies. Now assuming that there is a MAIN villain, in both movies, who would you classify as the MAIN villian?
TWINE- Elektra or Renard
TLD- Koskov or Witaker
IMO, Koskov is the main villain for me, he made up the whole scheme of making a fake defection, and then getting kidnapped back so that Bond would 'Eliminate' General Pushkin. Then Witaker steps in with some stupid plot involving Opium and 'a half a billion bucks', he didn't seem like the villain to me, it was koskov all the way.
In TWINE though, i think that Renard is the main villain. You know straight from the start that he was bad, he was a villain, it was only near the end that you find out that Elektra is the villain, and by then it was in my mind that she was on Bond's side, and it couldn't get out of my head, even when she was killed it still couldn't sink in, and i know most people think that Renard is her Henchmen, but i disagree, i think that they are joint together, but Renard is more of the villain.
Any thoughts?
TWINE- Elektra or Renard
TLD- Koskov or Witaker
IMO, Koskov is the main villain for me, he made up the whole scheme of making a fake defection, and then getting kidnapped back so that Bond would 'Eliminate' General Pushkin. Then Witaker steps in with some stupid plot involving Opium and 'a half a billion bucks', he didn't seem like the villain to me, it was koskov all the way.
In TWINE though, i think that Renard is the main villain. You know straight from the start that he was bad, he was a villain, it was only near the end that you find out that Elektra is the villain, and by then it was in my mind that she was on Bond's side, and it couldn't get out of my head, even when she was killed it still couldn't sink in, and i know most people think that Renard is her Henchmen, but i disagree, i think that they are joint together, but Renard is more of the villain.
Any thoughts?
Comments
Whitaker/Koskov is more difficult to call, but Koskov seems to be doing all the rubbish work (going to Afghanistan, faking the defection, and so on) while Whitaker sits in his villa waiting for the profits to roll in.
The hardest question is: who is the principal villain of From Russia With Love - Blofeld, Klebb or Grant?
@merseytart
That is the hardest question of them all, and I have no idea what the answer is !!!! If I had to think about it, i would say that Grant is, he did all the work, went everywhere, etc. while Blofeld just sat there and killed people if they didn't do what he said, and Klebb was just the boss who couldn't do anything by herself. If Grant came face to face with Klebb, he would make her in mush. And besides, Grant had a more famous and better death than Klebb, which was quick and was not suspensful at all.
1) Blofield
2) Klebb
3) Kronsteen
4) Red Grant
is the chain of command in FRWL
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I always thought that Klebb and Kronsteen were of the same rank. Respectually Number 3 and 5, Blofeld asked both of them for the operation : Kronsteen to elaborate it and Klebb to operate it. She's the one who hire Red Grant.
And for the other subject, I think Elektra and Brad were the two major villains. During the torture scene, she's saying that she turned Renard, but that scene is so quiet...
For FRWL it is blofeld, then red grant.
for TLD... I dont know. I last saw it when it was on TV, and i don't own the DVD or VHS.
It was Elektra who cut off part of her own ear.It was Elektra who arranged for her father's murder.It was Elektra who tricked M into becoming her prisoner,and her potential next victim,following 007-whom she had manipulated throughout most of the story.It was Elektra who arranged for the murders of many innocent people as well.She tells Bond all of this while she's torturing him.
Elektra was beautiful and she was charming--but she was also a twisted selfcentered psychopath.Renard was Elektra's willing accomplice,her second-in-command,while she was the principal villain in TWINE.And once Bond is armed,he kills Elektra without a moment's hesitation.
As for From Russia With Love :Blofeld gave the orders and everyone else in SPECTRE,including the very dangerous Red Grant,carried them out.Nevertheless,I've always considered Grant to be the primary vilain in FRWL-although one can argue that Rosa KLebb's equally deadly.
W.G.
I was beggining to think that i was the only one who had realised that. This si why I apprieciated TWINE way after i first saw it, because at the time of my first screening I just thought that Renard was the baddie and Elektra was the love interest partner at best. But that is why it is so clever because it twists the concept on it's head and Elektra turns out to be the baddie, but I feel that it was done in a much subtler way than, say, Frost's. You do find out very earlier that she is a baddie, but it's not till the end that you realise that she is THE baddie. If you want further proof just ask yourself, "who gains out of it?" Renard gets jack out of this arrangement, not even love because she doesn't love him. All he gets is a way to go out with a bang. All he gets is death. Elektra, on the other hand, gets sole control over the oil supply comming to the west. Thats a hell of a monopoly. Whereas in most Bond's the villain manipulates the henchmen with money or power, Elektra manipulates with love. Plus it keeps a tradition of the henchman dieing after the main bad guy going. But in a fresh way.
After working this out I had a whole new apprecition for this movie that left me quite uninspired first time.
That one I'd challenge. She was genuinely kidnapped and I think the mutilation was done to her (providing evidence to her father) and not something she chose to do. Note that Bond references Stockholm Syndrome: Elektra moved to Renard's side over time. Though it's not impossible she'd willingly disfigure herself, I can more readily believe that Renard did it yet did it in such a manner that caused Elektra to become sympathetic to him.
* * * * *
Good points Alan,but I respectfully disagree with some of them.Yes indeed,Renard was behind the kidnapping of Elektra,but once she was his prisoner she used her position to her own advantage by seducing Renard,and making him her accomplice.He did,after all,arrange for her escape.
Here's what Elektra tells Bond as she's torturing him(all quotes are from the TWINE screenplay):
Elektra:"Since I was a child,I've always had a power over men.When I realized my father wouldn't rescue me from the kidnappers I knew I had to form a new alliance"
Bond responds,"You turned Renard"
Clearly Elektra wasn't an example of Stockholm Syndrome after all,she did not identify with her captor-rather she used her wiles to make him her follower-the reverse of Stockholm Syndrome(a great red herring for the film's storyline).
As for the self mutilation?Elektra tells Bond that,
"I told him[Renard]he had to hurt me.Had to make it look real.When he refused,I told him I would do it myself."
Obviously,there are two ways to interpret that comment.I've always assumed that since Elektra has a more dominant personality than Renard,that she actually chose to hack off her ear.Elektra even shows what remains of her right ear to Bond in what looks like a proud fashion-as if to say,"Look,see what I did?"
Throughout TWINE the dangerous Renard is always shown as being very protective of Elektra.Somehow,even though he's supposed to be a world-class assassin,I don't think Renard could have brought himself to damage her appearance.However,she probably would,and enthuiastically-out of hatred for her father-the reason for her hatred which,sadly,isn't clearly defined during the course of the movie.
Yes,Elektra does say that she "died"when Sir Robert tefused to pay the ransom but there's more to the situation that isn't revealed.And yes,I know Benson goes into greater detail on this important plotpoint in the novelization,but this key element really should have been fully explained in the film itself...
We've all been conditioned to assume that every principal Bond villain is a male-after all,19 of them have been,but Elektra is that rare exception-a villainess who is so clever she actually fools James Bond.
W.G.
Yeah, but that was last time. Stop living in the past. It was Elektra, she'd be the one who would live after the Istanbul meltdown. Renard was her pupet. Read the book, its pretty clear in that.
Also, in FRWL, it was Klebb. Kronstein was some guy who contributed little more to the script. Grant was just an assain. Blofeld and Largo in Thunderball, who was the villian - Largo. Im guessing FRWL runs the same way.
Also, in TLD, I think Koskov and Whitaker are in it together. Probably getting even shares of what the sell.
TWINE: Renard