Formula One...

General_Ourumov

I was curious as to whether any fellow Bond fans were fans of, or simply followed the Formula One season. I would expect more UK members to reply than USA residents, if I get any reply at all.

I don't like Michael Schumacher, so, as you can see, us Renault/Williams fans are a little in it at the moment. If Michael scores a single point in this upcoming last race of the season then he has the title for a record sixth time!!

I don't really mind - it has been one of the best F1 seasons for years, and one of the closest - it has been a while since the championship was decided on the last race of the season, and it really has been neck and neck between Ferarri, McLaren and Williams all year.

Am I alone? Or are there some other fans that would like to share their views?

Predator

Indeed I am an F1 fan and have been for many years.

While this season has certain been closer, I feel it has been somewhat false. That Michael Schumacher should win is taken as red (ahem) ... he has scored three more victories than Montoya (a distant third in the championship) and six times as many as the only man who can catch him (Raikkonen, 6 to 1) if only for that absolutely daft closing up of the points system. Without it, he would have won a couple of races ago ... and IMO it would have been a more level playing field.

Ah well ... I too like the Williams team and I hope that it will be them and Ferrari duking it out next year.

And just to bring us closer to home, I am surprised that Bond has never crossed the path of F1 ... you would have thought they would have come across one another (Monaco, the gadgetry, the money etc). I guess the problem is that not many films have featured motorracing well ... although Steve McQueen's Le Mans is a personal favourite of mine.

NAOMI_FAN 1

Ah General, I too am a Formula One Fan! Although my favorite driver has since retired(Nigel Mansell), I still watch the races! I guess it's in my blood1 I started watching F1" Across the Pond" here in the U S of A back when Nikki Lauda reigned supreme!!
I was very fortunate to attend all the British events from 1985-1987, plus the 1990 race!
I really hope Kimi Raikkonen can capture the title, as I've had enough of Herr Schumacher!! And you are correct, this HAS been an absolutely great season!!

Predator, "Le Mans" is a great film! It FINALLY came out on DVD over here!

General_Ourumov

Well I thought all of the best races were in Mansell, Prost and Ayrton Senna's times (late eighties - early ninties). Always so much closer.

I have never seen any films based on Formula One - and, as you said Pred, it is surprising that Bond has never come into contact with the sport so far.

Well the only way Raikkonen can win is if he wins the race, and Michael doesn't finish. Let's be honest, Michael always finishes when it counts.

Sir Hillary Bray

I enjoy F1, but having kids has made it harder for me to get up early and watch over here in the States. I'm tired of Schumacher and am hoping anyone else will win. Constructors' championship...couldn't care less. My favorite driver of all time -- Nikki Lauda

Unfortunately, three of my most vivid F1 memories are tragic, and I saw them all live on TV. First was Ronnie Petersen exploding near the end of the '78 season in which he helped teammate Mario Andretti win the title. Second was Gilles Villeneuve wrecking in Belgium in 1982, followed by the tasteless close-ups of his blue face as medics futilely attempted to revive him. Third, and saddest of all, was Senna inexplicably drifting off the road at Imola in '94. I was living in the UK at the time and remember seeing it as it happened from the vantage-point of the car behind him (Damon Hill's?) and this listening all afternoon to Murray Walker's eulogistic commentary. Yuck.

Predator

Quoting Sir Hillary Bray:
Senna inexplicably drifting off the road at Imola in '94. I was living in the UK at the time and remember seeing it as it happened from the vantage-point of the car behind him (Damon Hill's?) and this listening all afternoon to Murray Walker's eulogistic commentary. Yuck.

Although I was too young to remember Ronnie Petersen's death, I remember both Villeneuve and Senna. Tragic ... but (and I hate to say it) gripping. The shock of almost knowing that Senna was dead by the reaction of the emergency services was too much to bear after onkly the day before Roland Ratzenburger being killed at the next set of corners (ironically named Villeneuve). F1 is still gladatorial in a way, but it could never match the intensity of motor racing in the 50s through to the early 80s. This was why Senna and Ratzenburger's deaths were so shocking ... everyone had thought that the battle with safety had been won. Foolish.

These more sanitized times have the same feel to them, but I hope to God that nothing happens like that again. However, there is always that niggling feeling that a death in the sport raises its profile immensely ...

Sorry, I hadn't expected to talk so morbidly about one of my favourite sports ...

As for Le Mans on DVD ... just be lucky that you have been able to buy it on video - it had long since been deleted (until the release of the DVD in June).

And lastly ... sure Michael Schumacher winning again (probably) is not the most interesting end result, but the man is an absolute genius. I used to despise him (it was our job when Damon Hill was racing), but you cannot deny his mastery of an F1 car (if not the 'Rules of Engagement'). To see him 'on it' is just a joy to behold - his reactions and car control are just light years ahead of his fellow competitors ...

MIchael Schumacher to win. The right result ... you betcha

General_Ourumov

Well he is probably the greatest Formula One driver to date - and I can say that despite not liking him. I have heard he will stop racing after his contract ends with Ferarri at the end of 2006.

They also say that Villeneuve will be out for next year because of below average performances through this year. That is a shame, he did some superb driving in his heyday (spelling?) (1997).

So did Frentzen, who was overshadowed by Villeneuve and went down a little afterwards, though he had that great podium finish in the last race. He is out next year, too.

Well - I am looking forward to seeing Mark Webber, Raikkonen, Montoya, and Alonso on form next season (as they were this season). Certainly more than one of them will win the world championship one day.

Major_Bootheroyd

well I am personally a McLaren Fan (Coulthard of course) and I have to say that I think Michael Schumacher is over-rated, yes he is undoubtedly a good driver but how much of this good driving is just down to him being ignorant and lucky, surely we've all seen the times when he's pretty much rammed somebody out of his way so he can get pole and when he's not yielded on the first corner and near enough caused an accident. And remember last year when Raikkonen led the race the entire way(I can't remember which circuit) with Schumacher behind him and the only way he got past was because Raikkonen hit a bit of oil and went off the track.
He's definetley a good driver but I think if you were to put him and the other drivers in the same car then he wouldn't be quite so high up in the positioning

NAOMI_FAN 1

Ayrton Senna's death affected me very profoundly.
While I was never the biggest Senna fan, his presence in F1 was, in a word, comforting. Any race he was in, you were assured he would do everything in his power to make it exciting! The duels he had with Mansell were absolute classics!

When Senna Died, I was watching the race live on TV, and I felt like I lost a brother. Formula One lost it's shining star, it's soul.
When Nigel Mansell retired, Formula One lost it's heart.

I still watch, but I feel strangely detatched from it all. And I am upset when I read about comparrisons between Senna and Schumaker.
When Senna raced, there was far more talent and
top drivers who could grab a car by the scruff of the neck and fight! Now it seems that intimidation is the key. you see Schuy in your mirrors, and you move over and give way.
In the few races where Michael Schumaker actually got to race against the likes of Senna, Mansell, et al, they NEVER gave way!

God, I do miss the days of Senna, Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Berger, and of course Mansell!

Predator

Sorry, Naomi, I don't buy that "it was better in the old days" spiel. Senna was - although as you say a very quick and talented driver - himself a very aggressive driver (in fact no more or less so than Schumacher Snr). In fact some have suggested that Senna's tactics were taken on by the new breed of drivers (including Schumacher, Villeneuve, etc). Now I don't agree that either Senna nor Schumacher nor Villeneuve are per se all unfair in their driving, but each have certainly taken it to the limits of acceptance.

Senna died tragically before he could complete his career and we shall never know just how great he would have been, but Schumacher's results don't lie. That he only has one record to beat (number of career poles) is insightful (especially when you consider that Schumacher has only had 30 more races in his career than Senna).

Have a look at http://www.f1db.com/statistic for more details

Bill Tanner

I was a big fan of F1 from around 1975 to 2000, virtually never missing a race. Then one day, inexplicably, I just couldn't be bothered any more and haven't seen a race since. I'm still as big a car fan as ever, still pouring unfeasibly large amounts of money into cars that will never be any good - it's just an F1 thing.

Was it the tedious procession of watching the cars drive around in circles for an hour or so, the lack of charisma in the modern sport, or just general apathy brought on by my final admission that I was now too old to ever be a Grand Prix driver? Who knows? Who cares?

What I would say is that Schumacher, cold fish or not, is undoubtedly one of the best drivers of all time. He has proved his ability to win in uncompetitive or faulty machinery, rain or shine. I don't particularly like him but I can't remember a single driver who has had his consistency.

Arrogant and lucky? Aren't these the basic entry requirements of F1?

General_Ourumov

Well, they do call him the luckiest man in Formula One.

More news- you may have heard already but Villeneuve has pulled out of the final race of the season. He knows that he will be out of F1, replaced by Takuma Sato for next year, so his attitude really is 'why bother?'.

It is sad really. Villeneuve always had such talent, finishing a close 2nd in his very first season in 1996. He went on to become champion in 1997. After he was dropped by Williams, he thought he would stick with Honda - who he thought could provide him with good chances. He wound up in the BAR Team, and it has been downhill since. He has been out qualified and outraced by both Olivier Panis last year and brit Jenson Button this year. Now what could have been a career as successful as Michael's, has come to an end.

On a happier note, Renault's Jarno Trulli (yay!!!) has qualified first in the Friday qualifying session. Michael was third, and Raikkonen fifth. A taste of things to come?..

Predator

As I recall, he wasn't dropped per se. It was always on the cards for him to go straight to BAR when it was set up ... there were rumours that he actually owned a big stake in BAR at some point or another.

But it is a great shame that he has left ... a big talent, but he couldn't stick the PR duties that a modern racing driver has to practice. Consequently every other team has gone "Why bother?" for him too ...

I completely agree about Jarno Trulli. In fact Renault have the strongest driver pairing for next year. I hope Trulli gets a win soon and more importantly some consistency - if he can do that and with a good Renault underneath him, he stands a good chance of doing very well in next year's championship. And if you thought this year's championship was good and close, just wait for next year.

Moore Not Less

Quoting Predator:
Sorry, Naomi, I don't buy that "it was better in the old days" spiel. Senna was - although as you say a very quick and talented driver - himself a very aggressive driver (in fact no more or less so than Schumacher Snr). In fact some have suggested that Senna's tactics were taken on by the new breed of drivers (including Schumacher, Villeneuve, etc). Now I don't agree that either Senna nor Schumacher nor Villeneuve are per se all unfair in their driving, but each have certainly taken it to the limits of acceptance.

Senna died tragically before he could complete his career and we shall never know just how great he would have been, but Schumacher's results don't lie. That he only has one record to beat (number of career poles) is insightful (especially when you consider that Schumacher has only had 30 more races in his career than Senna).

Have a look at http://www.f1db.com/statistic for more details

I don't buy that "it was better in the old days" spiel either. What I would say is that there are fewer characters and personalities amongst the drivers now compared to the past.

Ayrton Senna indeed was the instigator of the modern agressive style which says "I am going to pass you and if you don't get out of my way I'll take you out." Or put another way, "try and overtake me and i'll force you off the track." Statistics mean very little in F1, you cannot realistically compare a drivers statistics from the 1950's to a driver of today, so many things have changed. One thing is certain, both Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher are amongst the greatest drivers of all time.

It was such a tragedy when Senna died not only because of his premature death but also because potentially the greatest rivalry in F1 history was lost before it really began. Personally, I would give Ayrton Senna the edge over Michael Schumacher. Under race conditions there is nothing to choose between them, both extremely commited and extremely quick in both dry and wet conditions. Where Senna scores for me is in qualifying, he was the master.

I am not a fan of Michael Schumacher, but I admire what he has achieved. He has always been motivated and never gives less than 100% on, and just as crucially off the track. He is also a very good motivator and is able to get the very best out of the people who work around him. He is no prima donna and treats everyone at Ferrari from Jean Todt to the cleaning lady with respect. There is no doubt that Schumacher is well loved within the Ferrari team. Yes, Schumacher has had his fair share of luck but maybe he has earn't it.

General_Ourumov

I agree - I do admire Michael for what he has achieved, if nothing else. The reason I dislike him is because of his arrogance. Villeneuve recently tried to get into Ferarri, but they refused because Michael demanded that he was to be the number one driver. They need to put in a team mate who will give him a damn good run for his money. Rubens Barrichello is a solid driver but isn't spectacular, let's be honest.

I don't think that all the action was in the past either - even considering the championship in which Prost beat Senna by half a point to clench the title!!!

The 2003 season has brought some fantastic races. I will always remember Brazil - where Michael span off. Mark Webber then smashed into the wall, was hit by Alonso and the race was stopped, resulting in Jordan driver Fisichella finishing as the winner!! and I cannot forget Silverstone where some idiot ran out into the track and messed up the placings, the two Toyota drivers ending up 1st and 2nd for quite a while.

I have since heard more news on Villeneuve - he is apparently trying to gather 10 million for a guaranteed placing in Jaguar or Jordan. I don't think he is getting any better, and these breathless attempts to stay in the sport wont do him any good.

Also, in response to Pred's post- I have always liked Trulli. He did some excellent work for Jordan in 2000, with great results. Since in Renault he has been competitive, but has had the worst luck of the two drivers. He is one of the best drivers for qualifying as today has proved, but lacks confidence in the race. Team mate Alonso really has over shadowed Trulli this year, particularly with his win, so it would be nice to see Trulli doing some of the talking next year.

Looking good for next year are Toyota. They are such a massive company, they can throw so much money at their cars that Panis and Da Matta just have to be up there next year. It surprised me to find out that down a straight the Toyota is the fastest car, so it should be even better for 2004.

Predator

I'm not sure that you've got it the right way round ... more likely is that Villeneuve turned down the chance to be number two at Ferrari Although I guarantee that there would have been some fascinating chemistry in the team had they done that.

I don't actually rule Villeneuve coming back (to Ferrari) when Schumacher's contract is up. Let Villeneuve do a few years in Le Mans cars and bring him back with a big fanfare. Let's face it, Ferrari love the showmanship aspect of the sport, so to replace the greastest modern driver with the son of a former Tifosi favourite would be great for the team ... just got to keep Villeneuve interested in motorsport for long enough - surely it's in his blood as unfinished business. A pairing with Alonso would be spectacular also. We're now getting worse than predicting who'll be the new Bond!!

Moore Not Less

I have enjoyed the 2003 season. I think the new rules have generally been a success. The most memorable race for me up to now was the British Grand Prix. I think I saw more overtaking in that race than in all the races of the last five years combined. Rubens Barrichello and Juan Pablo Montoya were particularly outstanding. And to add to the drama that idiot ran on to the track.

The tyre war between Bridgestone and Michelin has played a major role (too major in my opinion) in determining the outcome of each race. This was never more apparent than at the U.S. Grand Prix. When the track was slightly wet the Michelin runners had a major advantage but when the track was fully wet the Bridgestone runners had a major advantage. While the tyre war may have contributed to the closeness of this years championship I don't believe it will be good for F1 in the long run.

The latest rumour sees Juan Pablo Montoya joining Kimi Raikkonen at McLaren in 2005 while Mark Webber will replace Montoya at Williams. Raikkonen and Montoya in the same team, I can see fireworks.

NAOMI_FAN 1

Mark Webber at Williams will be a good fit. He deserves a chance at a top team, as he is a really good driver! Some of his drives in the Jaguar have been astounding!

General_Ourumov

Well Japan's race put a full stop to this thread. I will note however that Trulli made a superb effort starting from last and getting fifth place.

Well we can revive this chat again in March. See ya then

NAOMI_FAN 1

Yes, Trulli did a magnificent job in Japan!
He will be one to watch in 2004!

General_Ourumov

Ah ha!

Time to revive this, though a couple of months late.

I must say that I am disappointed to see the advantage that Ferarri has over the other constructors, and it all seems to be playing into Michael's hands already.

Reviewing the performances this year, Ferarri are so dominant, I can't see anything beating them this time, as was the case in 2002. Michael knows how to use his car far more confidently than his team-mate Rubens, who has been extremely slow in comparison. Just today in qualifying for Barcelona, Rubens was 1.2 seconds down on Schumacher, underlining this point. That is a massive margin, even if Rubens had more fuel on board.

As for Williams, Montoya seems to be trying hard as ever. Ralf has always been a bit of an idiot, so no surprises that he has had poor results.

McLaren have take a step back! They are now underpowered and have reliability issues. Coulthard is a plonker and Raikkonen has but 1 single point in the championship. I think we can safely count them out.

Renault are strong, though are a bit further away from Ferarri this time around. Trulli has been very competitive in compariosn with Alonso this year, which was not the case in 2003.

BAR, I am rather happy for. They struggled for pace for a few years now. Something I like to wonder though - is what Villeneuve could have done, had he not gotten the kick. Good luck to Jenson Button and team mate Sato in tomorrow's race.

I am disappointed about Toyota - I wanted to see Panis and Da Matta right up there this season, but that clearly hasn't happened.
----

Looks like Michael migth have tomorrow's race, should he get to the first corner first, and keep Montoya behind him while his tyres warm up. Maybe Trulli, in fourth place and Sato in third can even jump the champ. Who knows... Michael can't possibly win all the races..

NAOMI_FAN 1

I think it's only a matter of time before we see Button win his first race! He is really shining in the BAR! And it'll be a great day when we see Webber hoist the first place trophy over his head!
I have this feeling that the season is just about over already. How many World Championships does Michael need anyway? The guy is almost as rich as Bill Gates! Almost. )

Predator

Very true reidmarks, although I would argue that Schumacher has substantially toned down his more aggressive interpretation of the rulebook since the infamous 97 tag with Villeneuve.

The fact is that I believe Schumacher had the natural talent to win almost as many races without the more dubious politics and race tactics he has occasionally exhibited. He is to me a far more complete race driver than Ayrton Senna (great though he was). Schumacher seems to have an icy calm in the cockpit that very little is affecting his concentration ever. Senna on the other hand fought with his sentiments to do the same ... a passionate man forever forcing himself into the 'zone'.

This afternoon's race should be interesting for the battle for 2nd place. Button did himself no favours, but should be quick and I still wouldn't rule out a fourth podium in a row for him.

General_Ourumov

Sadly, today's race didn't produce as much action as I had rather hoped. I had somewhat anticipated Trulli giving the cars infront a run for their money down to the first corner.

I was surprised to see him stay ahead rather comfortably for the first few laps. The pace of the Renault really showed up until the first round of pit stops. Then Michael does what he's best at - overtaking in the pits. From that point on I was in a rather negative frame of mind, as I thought it would be another boring Schumacher victory - and it was.

Some interesting points though. Trulli drove very well, and deserved that third place, in my opinion - Alonso just missing out. A shame Button couldn't do more with his car - the Sauber's seemed a challenge for him. McLaren was unsurprisingly disappointing, as was Williams. Ralf was just crap as per usual, and I was sad to see Montoya retire.

---

Grrr - I am STILL awaiting the day when Michael crashes or has some catastrophic failure. It's gotta happen sometime, hasn't it?

SiCo

Bring back Mansell or Hill.

I haven't paid any attention to F1 for a couple of years and its hardly talked about anymore, I haven't seen it on TV or heard it on radio for ages.

Michael is an excellent driver though but there seems to be no action or excitement anymore. I personally think parts of this have come from making the sport 'safer'. Not that thats a bad thing but all the regulations they brought in. Coupled with the rivalry between Williams and Benetton being destroyed.

Predator

Um, a bit of a dull one, but I do think Button could have given at least one Ferrari a run for its money had he qualified better - a missed opportunity.

I think we may have to withstand another year of Schumacher's record breaking - but it is a massive challenge for him to be the most 'winningest' driver of the season ... let's see.

Spain can be very processional and a remember quite a few Catalunya GPs in which there were no overtaking maneouvres at all. However, Button had a couple and the Renaults were extremely exciting to watch.

Let's see what happens in 2 weeks time in Monaco ... always difficult to overtake, but really easy to make a mistake and end up in the wall and out of the race. I fear everything hangs on qualifying and I hate to see a race decided on one flying lap in which no other cars are on the track ...

superado

Quoting reidmarks:
Grand Prix is(was)one of my great passions, at least until the Age of Schumacher. For me, the Ferrari driver is emblematic of how the global corporate stranglehold is throttling the life's blood out of everything it owns. The day F1 became more about big business than sport was the beginning of the end.

Schumacher is the ultimate corporate driver, successful only in a world where sportsmanship, economic parity and character have all but disappeared.

Too many (not all) of Schuey's wins resulted from intimidation and cheating -- not something I enjoy watching.

The idea used to be: put some blokes in some cars and see who wins. Now it's become: take a bunch of spoiled overachievers and have a demolition derby. Not my thing. What does it prove?

Right now, the guy driving for the richest team willing to runover the greatest number of his opponents will always win. That doesn't mean he's a great racing driver. Schumacher may have the numbers on his side (most championships and wins), but he's certainly not in the same league as Fangio, Moss, Clark or even Lauda.

It was Senna who began the modern run-'em-over-at-all-costs style and his temper-tantrum aggressiveness marred an otherwise brilliant talent. The same goes for Schuey.

I won't watch or follow F1 as closely until Schumacher is gone. Long live a true champion and sportsman, Damon Hill, who learned from his Dad that the real virtues of competition come from fairness and respect, not cheating and intimidation.

Until this day I could not put into words or even arrange my thoughts to account for my wanning interest in F1, but Reidmarks, if you were a physician, you haved diagnosed my malady to a "t," thank you, and I concur with all your points, particularly: Infusion of optimal corporate efficiency=F1 success, successfully executed intimidation=F1 success and that success does not neccessarily equate to driving excellence.

And to concur with many here, had Senna lived, he would have certainly given Schumacher a run for his money since they are two of a kind.

General_Ourumov

Exactly, were Senna still alive - I don't think Michael would be fighting for his seventh world title this year!

Being entirely honest, I also agree with you Reidmarks. Michael has had much of his success as a result of cheating, serious financial backing and possibly most of all, luck.

Since about 2000, for me Formula One has gone downhill, with the exception of last year. I thought, with all the trouble Schumacher had - that last year was great. But even so, there were still no stunning battles or incredible drives etc.

The new regulations that will eventually get here should make it all a lot more competitive - all teams having the same tyres, and having a budget to spend on their cars. Maybe even Minardi can get some points, eh?

NAOMI_FAN 1

Quoting reidmarks:
Grand Prix is(was)one of my great passions, at least until the Age of Schumacher. For me, the Ferrari driver is emblematic of how the global corporate stranglehold is throttling the life's blood out of everything it owns. The day F1 became more about big business than sport was the beginning of the end.

Schumacher is the ultimate corporate driver, successful only in a world where sportsmanship, economic parity and character have all but disappeared.

Too many (not all) of Schuey's wins resulted from intimidation and cheating -- not something I enjoy watching.

The idea used to be: put some blokes in some cars and see who wins. Now it's become: take a bunch of spoiled overachievers and have a demolition derby. Not my thing. What does it prove?

Right now, the guy driving for the richest team willing to runover the greatest number of his opponents will always win. That doesn't mean he's a great racing driver. Schumacher may have the numbers on his side (most championships and wins), but he's certainly not in the same league as Fangio, Moss, Clark or even Lauda.

It was Senna who began the modern run-'em-over-at-all-costs style and his temper-tantrum aggressiveness marred an otherwise brilliant talent. The same goes for Schuey.

I won't watch or follow F1 as closely until Schumacher is gone. Long live a true champion and sportsman, Damon Hill, who learned from his Dad that the real virtues of competition come from fairness and respect, not cheating and intimidation.

Thank You reidmarks! You have summed up my feelings of the "Schumacher era" of F1 perfectly!
As the season goes thus far: 5 races- 5 Schumacher victories. *YAWN* X-(

superado

Oh, and for your amusement Reidmarks in connection with the consumerism issue on the Sherlock Holmes thread, I wanted to share how I also have toys and memorabilia surrounding Formula One, LeMans, etc. etc. ) I'm just that kind of guy, having this sickness, the need to wrap my arms around a subject or hobby that I like with tangible objects such as books, photos and toys. I just wish that I had more space to display my goodies. As I type, I have a small 1966 Forumla One Ferrari sitting on my computer. Vroom vroom! I work with this lady, who with her husband once owned a Ferrari 250 GTO, for which only 40 specimens were made. Surprisingly, they sold the car to a friend decades ago for $8,000, but years later these cars have been sold at auction for 8-digit figures!

NAOMI_FAN 1

Quoting superado:
I'm just that kind of guy, having this sickness, the need to wrap my arms around a subject or hobby that I like with tangible objects such as books, photos and toys. I just wish that I had more space to display my goodies.

)

I know exactly what you mean superado! I'm the same way, and I wish I also had the space to display everything! I need more shelves! I also need to find a 1/48 scale Bentley EXP Speed 8 LeMans spec (similar to the Onyx or Paul's Model Art line) so I can display it with my Mansell collection!