Maybe instead of a reboot they should just leave Lois and Co. behind for the next movie and bring in Lana Lang instead.
Great idea because I always felt that Lana was a lot more fiery than Lois and it also gives fans a buffer zone to forget about this "installment".
I too like Routh; he's just too hard not to like. You know who I feel should be shown the door so I'll try to contain myself on that... 8-)
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Here's a question that I want to pose to the more comic-knowledgable members here such as W.G., Tony, darenhat, etc. Really no disrespect to others but:
Taking in the fact of Superman's might, which is the more powerful universe? Marvel or DC? Me and some co-workers have been squawking about this all morning.
Although I am a bias DC man, I can't help but feel a prejudice to certain characters in that realm that I feel don't deserve to even be included.
We agreed that Aquaman would beat Namor
The same with Green Arrow defeating Hawkeye
We couldn't even come to terms on who Batman should start out with...
But what really brought the pimple to a head was who could legitimatly take on Superman.
I have the upmost respect for Supes but it's sort of a turn-off if a hero has no real flaws. I mean Kryptonite isn't available at your local Wal-Mart.
Knowing me, I took a stance and said Thor & Hulk would give him a run for his money to perhaps the brink of death. My co-workers retorted me fiercely for even considering it.
Please let's try and leave those DC/Marvel incarnations out of this no matter how hard that might be. That's all about business and bigwigs sitting around a table negotiating which hereoes save face and others that don't. It seems that Supes gets a free pass every time. 8-) Somehow, I don't think that's fair.
I love Marvel characters too but when the dust settles on something that cataclysmic, who's still standing?
Has anyone even thought that Black Bolt could nip this battle in the bud by just uttering?
Excuse me if I've gone off subject somewhat...
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Superman could defeat Black Bolt by using his heat vision to melt his vocal chords from a mile away, before Black Bolt ever even saw him
**** END COMICS FANBOY ALERT ****
The problem with Supes (as my little example above illustrates) is that his powers have truly evolved to godlike proportions over the years. If you take the Kingdom Come Superman into accout, even Kryptonite no longer can hurt him. So the only characters that I can see besting him are ones that can physically match him blow for blow.
I stopped reading Marvel Comics around 1980 so I'm not familiar with new characters or the current powers for characters in the Marvel Universe. The only ones I can think of that could give Supes a run for his money hand to hand would be Thor, Hulk, and maybe Silver Surfer (Power Cosmic and all that). If you want to include the villains, I suppose you could add Apocalyspe and Thanos. Also, Ghost Rider might make things tough since his powers are supernatural and Superman has always had problems with magic.
But in the end, I think Superman wins out every time. His agent is just too good.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
I stopped reading Marvel Comics around 1980 so I'm not familiar with new characters or the current powers for characters in the Marvel Universe.
Trust me, nothing much has changed with the exception of a few newbies who're inconsequential...
The only ones I can think of that could give Supes a run for his money hand to hand would be Thor, Hulk, and maybe Silver Surfer (Power Cosmic and all that).
Thank you! I had to show these two tapehead cronies what you wrote. )
If you want to include the villains, I suppose you could add Apocalyspe and Thanos.
Apocolypse is overrated actually and Thanos is the same as Darkseid so I can see that. Thanos has a very untrustworthy personna and I've never forgiven him for killing Adam Warlock in Avengers Annual #9? I was on a Warlock kick as a kid.
But in the end, I think Superman wins out everytime. His agent is just too good.
Still not fair. You've got to admit it can get dull at times. 8-)
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Oh it definitely gets dull. But, whenever the powers that be at DC have tried to rein his powers in to make the stories more interesting, sales have suffered. Apparently, readers like Supes to be nearly all powerful. And to a certain extent, I can understand that kind of thinking: when you have someone as iconic as Superman who has been around for nearly 70 years, you get used to having him around and you don't want to see him defeated or even hurt. It's reassuring to know that there's somebody out there who will always prevail, no matter what, even if it is in a comic book.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Another part of my arguement about Supes, he isn't quite the brightest bulb in Comicdom. He always comes brute force first, hence as he did in the film.
He seems to walk into traps so arrogantly WITHOUT THOUGHT.
Where as my boy Bats always proceeds with caution. The benefit of not being so trustworthy. Supes is not willing to cross a line even if it is warranted, Bats will and not think anything of it.
When I saw an issue of M vs. DC drawn by George Perez a few years ago, Superman actually picks up Thor's Mjolnir. THEY BREAK ALL SORTS OF LAWS FOR THIS GUY! That's not even supposed to be possible.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
When I saw an issue of M vs. DC drawn by George Perez a few years ago, Superman actually picks up Thor's Mjolnir. THEY BREAK ALL SORTS OF LAWS FOR THIS GUY! That's not even supposed to be possible.
I told you, he has a great agent. )
Actually, the inscription on the hammer is "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor". If that's the case, then I guess an ice cream and apple pie boy scout do-gooder like Superman should be able to hold it. As I recall, Wonder Woman also held it at one point.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
edited July 2006
Thor is a god yet Supes beats him 30 seconds from death. The Avengers were just floored!
It's almost like your kids witnessing their dad getting his butt beat up by the postman or a school teacher. You never see your dad in that high of a regard anymore. This is what they did with Thor.
And yes, he was held in high esteem with me. I just thought it was unecessarily emmasculating...
Now this is how you draw blood.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Thor is a god yet Supes beats him 30 seconds from death. The Avengers were just floored!
It's almost like your kids witnessing their dad getting his butt beat up by the postman or a school teacher. You never see your dad in that high of a regard anymore. This is what they did with Thor.
And yes, he was held in high esteem with me. I just thought it was unecessarily emmasculating...
But you said it yourself Rogue, these kinds of "creative" decisions are usually made by stuffy suits in boardrooms, not passionate fans. In the end, they're little more than promotional gimmicks and popularity contests. Superman is more popular than Thor, ergo Superman must win.
That was also why I hated those Marvel vs. DC books from a few years ago where the fans voted who should win. Nobody took into account the characters actual powers and instead voted only for who they liked more. I mean Wolverine beats Lobo??!! Storm beats Wonder Woman??!! What's up with that?
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Thor is a god yet Supes beats him 30 seconds from death. The Avengers were just floored!
It's almost like your kids witnessing their dad getting his butt beat up by the postman or a school teacher. You never see your dad in that high of a regard anymore. This is what they did with Thor.
And yes, he was held in high esteem with me. I just thought it was unecessarily emmasculating...
But you said it yourself Rogue, these kinds of "creative" decisions are usually made by stuffy suits in boardrooms, not passionate fans. In the end, they're little more than promotional gimmicks and popularity contests. Superman is more popular than Thor, ergo Superman must win.
That was also why I hated those Marvel vs. DC books from a few years ago where the fans voted who should win. Nobody took into account the characters actual powers and instead voted only for who they liked more. I mean Wolverine beats Lobo??!! Storm beats Wonder Woman??!! What's up with that?
Now that arc escaped me. Was it the early 90s run they did this or the one from 2004?
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Now that arc escaped me. Was it the early 90s run they did this or the one from 2004?
I'm most likely thinking of the early '90s as I didn't even know there was another one of those that was done in 2004.
Dear God, where have all the years gone? ?:)
You never put that choice in the hands of fans. Although I'd wish the powers in charge would do their homework with their characters better.
I remember as a small tyke getting my allowance and walking down to the corner store to buy a large magazine of SUPERMAN vs. SHAZAM! Sue me, but I've always sorta favored the big red cheese a bit more. Gets in a couple of good hits on Supes and he ends up getting pulverized.
Same thing happened to him in the JLU cartoon; oddly that tee'ed my son off. )
Go to your LCS and request those Perez books from a couple of years ago. They were a hot item as I remember.
STORM beating Wonder Woman... )
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Same thing happened to him in the JLU cartoon; oddly that tee'ed my son off. )
I remember that episode. I enjoyed JLU but I hated the "misunderstanding leads to carnage" storylines. For a while there it seemed like every week you had two heros having a misunderstanding and going at it in Act I and then coming to their senses to work together in Act II.
Go to your LCS and request those Perez books from a couple of years ago. They were a hot item as I remember.
Was that the JLA vs. Avengers book? If yes, I'll definitely look for it as I intended to pick it up and then never got around to it.
STORM beating Wonder Woman... )
Just consider that my version of your Superman vs. Thor story.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Here's the book. Thank God I still have my copy of this.
Yes, Tony, it was JLA/Avengers.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Just saw the film. I'm no Superman fan, and haven't seen any of the others so I couldnt appreciate the 'return' as such (although the guys dressed in lycra superman costumes no doubt could!), but I found it very impressive visually and nicely entertaining.
Here's a question that I want to pose to the more comic-knowledgable members here such as W.G., Tony, darenhat, etc. Really no disrespect to others but:
Taking in the fact of Superman's might, which is the more powerful universe? Marvel or DC? Me and some co-workers have been squawking about this all morning.
Although I am a bias DC man, I can't help but feel a prejudice to certain characters in that realm that I feel don't deserve to even be included.
We agreed that Aquaman would beat Namor
The same with Green Arrow defeating Hawkeye
We couldn't even come to terms on who Batman should start out with...
But what really brought the pimple to a head was who could legitimatly take on Superman.
I have the upmost respect for Supes but it's sort of a turn-off if a hero has no real flaws. I mean Kryptonite isn't available at your local Wal-Mart.
Knowing me, I took a stance and said Thor & Hulk would give him a run for his money to perhaps the brink of death. My co-workers retorted me fiercely for even considering it.
Please let's try and leave those DC/Marvel incarnations out of this no matter how hard that might be. That's all about business and bigwigs sitting around a table negotiating which hereoes save face and others that don't. It seems that Supes gets a free pass every time. 8-) Somehow, I don't think that's fair.
I love Marvel characters too but when the dust settles on something that cataclysmic, who's still standing?
Has anyone even thought that Black Bolt could nip this battle in the bud by just uttering?
Excuse me if I've gone off subject somewhat...
I clearly remember reading a DC editor saying(sarcastically) that Superman was so powerful he could defeat his opponents just by "hearing real hard."And legendary DC editor Mort Weisinger allowed in the 1950s that Superman is,"invincible,invulnerable-even bad scripts can't hurt him."Jules Fieffer points out in his landmark book The Great Comic Book Heroes(and I paraphrase) that once you've made a character as powerful as Superman,you've immediately plotted him out of any believable conflicts.
Any man who can literally sniff out a star is nearly a god.It gets boring after a while-that's why the writers on the radio show created Kryptonite.I'd really rather Superman was an interstellar Achilles than a red-caped Zeus.
Tony's already mentioned that Superman's powers seem to escalate according to the whims of the readers and that's always been a creative mistake--IMO.John Byrne got it right,in my view.In his take-informed by the original Siegel/Shuster version,the powers manifested themselves gradually-over time-and as a result Clark suffered a few colds,played football in high school and even a broke an arm and leg.This shared experience made him human--a human from another solar system perhaps--but a human nonetheless.The recent movie ignored this stressing his alien side --but the recent animated series didn't, nor did "Lois & Clark" which I though gave Superman a great line in defining precisely how he sees himself.He said to Lois,"Superman is what I do but Clark is who I am."
So anyhow, to the topic at hand,WHO could give Superman a hard time?A few possiblities:
I always liked Mongul.He was a malicious SOB with an frightening exterior who was able to actually steal Superman's very thoughts from him and control his mind.That's scary.
How about an evil Bizarro--minus all of the slap-happy reverse meanings?He/it could give Superman all kinds of grief.Just as s straight villain.
Then there's Black Adam.Yes--I know;he was created by Bill Parker and published by Fawcett,DC's chief rival in the 1940s as a villain for Captain Marvel(not the Marvel Comics version).And DC's tried to kind of rehabilitate him.But since DC owns the Fawcett library(since the early 1970s) there's no reason this ancient warrior with magic based powers couldn't drop by Metropolis.Superman would really have his hands full dealing with such an opponent.
If Superman's Rogue's Gallery seems a bit thin there's no good reason DC can't just take a few promising but sometimes ignored Bad Guys from another hero.It's a shared universe,after all.
Brainiac could give Superman a tough moment or two,and because he's a machine,The Man of Steel wouldn't have to pull his punches.Nor would his adversary.Again--this depends on the quality of the writing.This story has just been animated.
Naturally Darkseid would be a great adversary for Kal-El.Might be fun seeing such a contest in a full on Stars Wars like motion picture--something HUGE and set in space and on other worlds,plus Earth-- with the kind of technology ILM is famous for.
A criminal from a distant galaxy-possibly a mass murderer-armed with one of a deceased Green Lantern's rings decides to visit Earth.Hmmm....imagine Doomsday with a power ring.
Superman need big stories.In the dramatic arena, the animated TV series cartoons has it all over live-action when it comes to presenting Superman in a fully fledged space opera.However,with computer animation as sophisticated as it is today,I think it'd be pretty cool seeing him defend the galaxy from hostile forces from within and without our solar system.
Additionally,I think both DC's and Marvel's universes are evenly matched.Ultimately,it's the imaginations of the writers who determine how well utilized they are.
I'm leaving out the Marvel Comics supervillains and superheroes--not because I don't think they deserve their share of importance but because you asked not to mix and match various company's characters.
Oh heck--Superman would have no trouble defeating Hyperion,however.
The best thing about the intercompany crossovers(and I have most of them)is that some terrific artists who--due to certain contractual obligations-- might never get the chance to draw the rival publisher's characters,can depict them in all their glory.John Buscema doing Superman for example--and his take on the Kryptonian is very impressive-elegant,graceful and one tough customer.The same is true for Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez's rendition of The Hulk.
The downside is that these are almost always contests where no one wins even if the heroes are ridiculously mismatched and have special weapons designed to level the playing field(which is usually the case)Superman Vs.Spider-Man Vol.1,for instance.But these things are almost always awkward compromises designed to appeal to all comic book readers--including the loyal fans of only one company's characters(discounting the crossovers where a heroes' victories are decided by a popular vote).Logic-even comic book logic-rarely plays a role in these teamups/physical matches.It's hard to believe, but there are actually partisans who'll refuse to pick up anything the "opposition" publisher prints,or at least there once were--and sometimes that's their loss.
Consequently,these kinds of books are interesting experiments but are difficult to take seriously.In a very real sense,that's the fault of the participating publishers--which begs the larger question:why should their established heroes fight each other anyway?Yes,yes--I know why--in order to determine who's tougher.But there's never a satisfying answer. C'mon...Storm defeating Princess Diana?Ain't gonna happen.KOing Power Princess, sure...but not the Amazon.
But back to the all-important burning question--WHO could take on Superman and really give him what for?WHO could knock Supes down and keep on coming?Why Popeye,of course...;)
I saw Supes last week by myself. My wife wanted no part of it because she brought his sexual orientation into question. Looking back on what she said, I should have taken her lead and just stayed away.
I've never seen such a beautifully shot movie that bored me so much as this turkey. Not only have the priorities of Superman been turned out of kilter, but the people he surrounds himself with (save only for Lex Luthor) are completely boring and listless.
The "five year absense" turned out to be a total throw-away mechanical issue used to make a few of the characters move on. Several plot points are not even ushered into further explanation. I swear this script was written by a Harlequin novelist or something.
I did not like the modifications to the outfit, particularly the squashed muffin heels on Superman's boots. And the final scene with a flying man flying everywhere by means of complete CGI did not fool me in the least.
I am scarcely so disappointed and enraged when I leave a movie theater, but this time around I was definitely incendiary.
But you said it yourself Rogue, these kinds of "creative" decisions are usually made by stuffy suits in boardrooms, not passionate fans. In the end, they're little more than promotional gimmicks and popularity contests. Superman is more popular than Thor, ergo Superman must win.
That was also why I hated those Marvel vs. DC books from a few years ago where the fans voted who should win. Nobody took into account the characters actual powers and instead voted only for who they liked more. I mean Wolverine beats Lobo??!! Storm beats Wonder Woman??!! What's up with that?
I saw Supes last week by myself. My wife wanted no part of it because she brought his sexual orientation into question. Looking back on what she said, I should have taken her lead and just stayed away.
I've never seen such a beautifully shot movie that bored me so much as this turkey. Not only have the priorities of Superman been turned out of kilter, but the people he surrounds himself with (save only for Lex Luthor) are completely boring and listless.
The "five year absense" turned out to be a total throw-away mechanical issue used to make a few of the characters move on. Several plot points are not even ushered into further explanation. I swear this script was written by a Harlequin novelist or something.
I did not like the modifications to the outfit, particularly the squashed muffin heels on Superman's boots. And the final scene with a flying man flying everywhere by means of complete CGI did not fool me in the least.
I am scarcely so disappointed and enraged when I leave a movie theater, but this time around I was definitely incendiary.
Agent Wade, I want to congratulate you for having such a perceptive wife. Her intuition saved you from being consumed by one of these pods on the board. And maybe that's it; W.B. had the ushers in theatres place pods by the seats because they knew this flick would be a snoozer! There's really no other excuse as to why they'd like this film.
Glad you saw the light. {[]
Somewhere, the real W.G. & Tony DP are nothing more than dust particles dispsersed in the air...
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
But back to the all-important burning question--WHO could take on Superman and really give him what for?WHO could knock Supes down and keep on coming?Why Popeye,of course...;)
Now I can drink to that. {[]
W.G., you are by far the Andy Rooney of the AJB boards.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
But back to the all-important burning question--WHO could take on Superman and really give him what for?WHO could knock Supes down and keep on coming?Why Popeye,of course...;)
Now I can drink to that. {[]
W.G., you are by far the Andy Rooney of the AJB boards.
Actually, the answer to the question "Who could beat Superman" is very simple: Mrs. Superman!
Now, all you poor married wretches, repeat after me: "Yes Dear." )
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
I keep saying I'm too old to get married anymore, yet one of my friends is 46 and is getting married to a 27 year old next month. So I suppose I could yet fall off the wagon.
Still, all my relationships seem to end quickly when I ask her to put on the Wonder Woman costume. I wonder why... )
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
I keep saying I'm too old to get married anymore, yet one of my friends is 46 and is getting married to a 27 year old next month. So I suppose I could yet fall off the wagon.
Still, all my relationships seem to end quickly when I ask her to put on the Wonder Woman costume. I wonder why... )
See there's the problem....you should've put on the codpiece. Role play it, man! )
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Somewhere, the real W.G. & Tony DP are nothing more than dust particles dispsersed in the air...
Hmmm...I don't think that's a compliment.I can only respond to such a bizarre comment by saying that I liked the way SR looked--although I do not approve of the needless modifications made to Superman's costume.They were pointless.
Additionally,I think Superman should always part his hair from the left to the right--that's the best way to create the "S" shaped strand that falls across his forehead with any ease-- along with matching the majority of the artistic renditions of this character(How's THAT for geeky?).
I also don't care to see Luthor played for laughs--I like the one of the animated series best:a very dangerous SOB.
I didn't like the story either.
However, I'm well aware that most moviemakers despise comics, and it's a rare day when a filmmaker really takes the trouble to put a famous comics character on the screen without first trying to improve or reinvent it.I think we're extremely lucky if 70% to 80 % of these things survive the transition from one medium to another without being tampered with.
* * *
The 2 biggest problems comic book/strip based movies will probably always face are:
1)Getting the right actors(those who actually represent acceptable physical matches of the illustrated characters).Without that-a film's already in trouble.Casting against type is always a mistake(Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne,Halle Berry as Catwoman,for example).This happens all too frequently and no matter how a director may want to explain it away,it's always wrong and can damage the movie severely.
2)A good story.It all begins with that.The story should be foremost in the minds of the filmmakers--not an afterthought.Get quality writers.Approach these as serious ADVENTURE films--not movies for the kiddies.Most of the recent comics based movies look great but don't have a plot worthy of their characters.Without a good story that can take full advantage of it's heroes and their unique qualities, the movie's already dead(Batman Begins,The Phantom and the 2 Spider-Man movies are great examples of films that really respect their characters and give them the kinds of stories they deserve).A cynical comic-based movie may sell toys perhaps, but it'll always be creatively empty and ultimately worthless.There are too many of these being made.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Somewhere, the real W.G. & Tony DP are nothing more than dust particles dispsersed in the air...
Hmmm...I don't think that's a compliment.I can only respond to such a bizarre comment by saying that I liked the way SR looked--although I do not approve of the needless modifications made to Superman's costume.They were pointless.
Additionally,I think Superman should always part his hair from the left to the right--that's the best way to create the "S" shaped strand that falls across his forehead with any ease-- along with matching the majority of the artistic renditions of this character(How's THAT for geeky?).
I also don't care to see Luthor played for laughs--I like the one of the animated series best:a very dangerous SOB.
I didn't like the story either.
However, I'm well aware that most moviemakers despise comics, and it's a rare day when a filmmaker really takes the trouble to put a famous comics character on the screen without first trying to improve or reinvent it.I think we're extremely lucky if 70% to 80 % of these things survive the transition from one medium to another without being tampered with.
* * *
The 2 biggest problems comic book/strip based movies will probably always face are:
1)Getting the right actors(those who actually represent acceptable physical matches of the illustrated characters).Without that-a film's already in trouble.Casting against type is always a mistake(Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne,Halle Berry as Catwoman,for example).This happens all too frequently and no matter how a director may want to explain it away,it's always wrong and can damage the movie severely.
2)A good story.It all begins with that.The story should be foremost in the minds of the filmmaker--not an afterthought.Most of the recent comics based movies look great but don't have a plot worthy of their characters.Without a good story that can take full advantage of it's heroes and their unique qualities, the movie's already dead(Batman Begins,The Phantom and the 2 Spider-Man movies are great examples of films that really respect their characters and give them the kinds of stories they deserve).A cynical comic-based movie may sell toys perhaps, but it'll always be creatively empty and ultimately worthless.There are too many of these being made.
Well, okay....you did have some concerns about this picture. Please don't take the quip the wrong way, W.G. Not my intention at all. Just passin' time and havin' fun.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Somewhere, the real W.G. & Tony DP are nothing more than dust particles dispsersed in the air...
Hmmm...I don't think that's a compliment.I can only respond to such a bizarre comment by saying that I liked the way SR looked--although I do not approve of the needless modifications made to Superman's costume.They were pointless.
Additionally,I think Superman should always part his hair from the left to the right--that's the best way to create the "S" shaped strand that falls across his forehead with any ease-- along with matching the majority of the artistic renditions of this character(How's THAT for geeky?).
I also don't care to see Luthor played for laughs--I like the one of the animated series best:a very dangerous SOB.
I didn't like the story either.
However, I'm well aware that most moviemakers despise comics, and it's a rare day when a filmmaker really takes the trouble to put a famous comics character on the screen without first trying to improve or reinvent it.I think we're extremely lucky if 70% to 80 % of these things survive the transition from one medium to another without being tampered with.
* * *
The 2 biggest problems comic book/strip based movies will probably always face are:
1)Getting the right actors(those who actually represent acceptable physical matches of the illustrated characters).Without that-a film's already in trouble.Casting against type is always a mistake(Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne,Halle Berry as Catwoman,for example).This happens all too frequently and no matter how a director may want to explain it away,it's always wrong and can damage the movie severely.
2)A good story.It all begins with that.The story should be foremost in the minds of the filmmaker--not an afterthought.Most of the recent comics based movies look great but don't have a plot worthy of their characters.Without a good story that can take full advantage of it's heroes and their unique qualities, the movie's already dead(Batman Begins,The Phantom and the 2 Spider-Man movies are great examples of films that really respect their characters and give them the kinds of stories they deserve).A cynical comic-based movie may sell toys perhaps, but it'll always be creatively empty and ultimately worthless.There are too many of these being made.
Well, okay....you did have some concerns about this picture. Please don't take the quip the wrong way, W.G. Not my intention at all. Just passin' time and havin' fun.
I know you're kidding Rogue--and I'm not offended at all.Good lord-I've been called a LOT worse than a speck of dust in my lifetime.I certainly didn't take your remark personally.
Truth to tell,I usually have issues--not with you or anybody on this board--but with most of the people who make comic book based movies.
They're rarely done well-for every Batman Begins and Hellboy, there's a Catwoman.It's just the way things are:only a few filmmakers really take the comics seriously in the sense that they respect and appreciate the medium.Fewer still seem willing to try to capture the flavor of a comic strip/book when making their movie.
All too often I'll see filmmakers discussing comics as if they're some esoteric object from a long dead civilization.
Look at all the directors and screenwriters who say things like,"We really weren't sure how to approach this.After all,it IS a comic book.Do we take it seriously, or do we play it for laughs?"
Also,"It's hard to imagine these things on the screen.I mean,they're just for kids,right?Frankly,I'm surprised they're still being published..."
And then there are the actors in these films--they'll often say things like:"Oh no--I NEVER read comics when I was growing up.I was too busy studying Shakespeare.And for a while,I wasn't sure if I should play my character as if it was a caricature or not."
I don't take comics based movies and TV shows as seriously as I once did--and I wrote my Master's on this topic.I used to be extremely incensed if liberties were taken with a favorite character.Usually there weren't too many big changes, but that's because the characters I've liked are generally so well-known even people who don't read comics know something about them, so radical alterations are out of the question.
I really think that if most of the look and the unique qualities of a specific character can manage to find their ways to the screen in a reasonable and recognizably faithful manner,that's as much as a comics fan can hope for.
They're been some very good comic book movies.They're not all as wonderful as we might like--that's disappointing,but not horrible.It's just how things are.
Marvel has been very smart by coproducing their movies.They have a strong say in the making of their related films.DC's trying to do the same thing--that's good.Hopefully this will prevent filmmakers from completely rewriting characters to the point where only the preestablished name is retained.
Back to your earlier question--who has the best realized universe:Marvel or DC.It's a good question.But it's difficult,maybe impossible to answer with any degree of certainty.
In a way,it reminds me of a question posed to Angel by Spike on the "Angel" TV series.It was this:If cavemen and astronauts fought,who'd win?Spike favored the Neanderthals.However, Angel answered with another question:do the astronauts have weapons?
It's all in the writing and always will be.IMO
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Another reason why Superman Returns doesn't quite have that "mojo" with audiences anymore? Kids have other things to indulge them whether it be videogames, internet, etc. I asked my classes what they thought of him presently and the response was just lukewarm... Boring. Stale & Predictable. Outdated.
There are times when I feel that Superman is a worn commodity. It's the Pirates and Spiderman generation we're enduring through about now and not that I mind.
I make frequent visits to my LCS and usually the biz that comes through is the 30+ crowd...Maybe a kid here and there and that's what my LCS guy says, not me.
Do you think the demographic, for Supes, is the old school crowd in general? And are we the only ones who really keep him afloat?
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Do you think the demographic, for Supes, is the old school crowd in general? And are we the only ones who really keep him afloat?
I think that's a good observation Rogue. Most younger people I talk to really don't dig the character all that much. He isn't "edgy" or "hip" enough for them and it's old geezers like us who have more of an appreciation for him. Of course, that same young audience is pretty fickle and what is hot today can be quickly forgotten tomorrow.
I think there's a little tortoise and hare analogy here somewhere. Superman, despite his ups and downs, has survived for almost 70 years. He's become part of our popular culture and as such he'll never totally go away and will most likely survive the fickle whims of the younger masses. I remember all the incredible publicity during the whole "Death of Superman" thing. He may be taken for granted, but when people thought we were going to lose him, they stood up and said "wait a minute!". Even mainstream media like Time and Newsweek ran cover stories on it.
20 years from now Pirates will be a quaint little footnote in some film book. But I firmly believe that anybody with a semi-functioning brain will still know who Superman is and he will still be a thriving and viable property. Taking a long-term view I think he'll even outlast the likes of Spiderman and X-Men, who have both come pretty close to biting the big one on numerous occasions over the years and whose success I feel is firmly tied to the current generation.
As for the current travails of Superman Returns (and that's a relative term since it looks to take in about as much as Batman Begins when all is said and done), all Singer needed to do was lose the kid and the love triangle, give us a little more action, and I guarantee it would have added significantly to the box office. I enjoyed Superman Returns for what it was, but a borderline chick-flick is not the stuff box office dreams are made of. Nor is it indicative of a worthy or even faithful Superman story.
Another reason why Superman Returns doesn't quite have that "mojo" with audiences anymore? Kids have other things to indulge them whether it be videogames, internet, etc. I asked my classes what they thought of him presently and the response was just lukewarm... Boring. Stale & Predictable. Outdated.
There are times when I feel that Superman is a worn commodity. It's the Pirates and Spiderman generation we're enduring through about now and not that I mind.
I make frequent visits to my LCS and usually the biz that comes through is the 30+ crowd...Maybe a kid here and there and that's what my LCS guy says, not me.
Do you think the demographic, for Supes, is the old school crowd in general? And are we the only ones who really keep him afloat?
There's probably a lot of truth to this-but only as it pertains to the dramatized versions of The Man of Steel.Let's remember that there is more than one version of Superman in the public consciousness.There are at least two distinct renditions of Superman and although they resemble oneanother they aren't exactly alike.
They are:
I.The original comic book character-who has slowly evolved over time without undergoing massive alterations.
II The dramatized versions as presented on Radio,TV,and in Movies.
I suspect that more people are familiar with the Superman of the movies than any other rendition--and that's too bad, because this interpretation has been severely limited in part due to the costs of putting such a character on the screen.But the biggest problem the movie Superman has always had is the contents of his stories.Heroes are only as good as the villains they encounter and only as impressive as they are allowed to be.It's hard to put Superman on the screen,but after the proper actors are selected it's often harder to make him interesting to the casual viewer and the longtime fan alike.This shouldn't be the case but more often than not this is what-IMO,anyway-occurs.
Comic book writer Mark Waid was shocked to discover a few years ago that the 20-Somethings he'd surveyed prior to his rewriting Superman's origin story prefered "Smallville" over the Reeve Superman films.That's why he shoehorned some awkward sequences reminiscent of "Smallville":Lex living there and once knowing Clark as a teen--which,ironically came from a 1960s Superboy story to begin with--into his story.
The general quality of the stories in the movies actually hurt the cinematic Superman,because seeing Superman fly just isn't enough anymore.If Superman had,for example,an Armegeddon type of saving-an-Earth-in-jeopardy kind of film(against something SO dangerous he might not return,and certainly not unscathed),or something setting him on distant planets in intergalactic wars;as opposed to finding himself (seemingly)continually trading insults with the movie version of Lex Luthor--who although claiming to be the most brilliant man on the planet,has now been reduced to being a land speculator--I think Superman would be much more popular as a film hero.We have to see him do something truly SUPERHUMAN and the films generally fail to deliver on that score.There are the random instances when he fights General Zod,for example,but those moments are all too rare.And the "Smallville" TV series pretty much overexposes Kryptonite so that's not much of a dramatic device any longer.
I think reducing the extent of his superpowers in both the comics and the movies,would make Superman more compelling and even more identifiable for audiences.It's hard to care about someone who can do almost anything imaginable and can do it perfectly.Superman needs great villains and great storylines.Having Lois become a mother and "move on with her life"(I really dislike this phrase) after attacking Supes in print for abandoning her,isn't enough.It has a brief impact, but it's not enough to drive a story.It's like moving the furniture around and making a few minor alterations, but overall it's not really as important as the filmmakers probably thought it would be.This situation creates a new obstacle for the Superman/Lois romance but it doesn't offer him a tangible adversary.Making changes in the famous costume(WHY?)didn't advance the storyline either.
Stories taking full advantage of this classic character are what I would like to see and I'm not sure they're on the horizon.I think Superman Returns is an exposition film--in its own way as much as the original Superman was.In all fairness,Bryan Singer has often said that SR is a "Chick Flick"--something women would want to see,as opposed to being something their boyfriends might have to drag them to see.
Perhaps on that level it's a success,but Superman is an action hero--he's the ORIGINAL superhero,the king and father of them all.As befitting his stature,Superman deserves a movie that allows him to go all out and display his unique abilities.The comics do this on a fairly regular basis,the animated series did this well, so surely a Superman movie can accomplish this too.Unfortunately,it looks like Singer and his writers have intentionally limited the perameters of their potential Superman storylines in order to directly echo what Donner and Mankiewicz(plus possible minor elements from the Puzo/Newmans' unfilmable screenplay) established earlier, and they cannot/will not look any further--thus the comical Luthor and his gunmoll.Thus the palid plot.
We all know that the technology exists to create a great Superman movie.Maybe the sequel to Superman Returns will be less derivative of the 1978 film and more imaginative and exciting.I sure hope so.
But never fear,Rogue--as a character, Superman is an immortal:he'll never disappear.No movies-be they good or bad or simply indifferent- will ever adversely affect The Man of Steel.He's invulnerable,after all.Superman certainly doesn't need mere movies to somehow validate his existence.He's above that.:)
Comments
Great idea because I always felt that Lana was a lot more fiery than Lois and it also gives fans a buffer zone to forget about this "installment".
I too like Routh; he's just too hard not to like. You know who I feel should be shown the door so I'll try to contain myself on that... 8-)
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Taking in the fact of Superman's might, which is the more powerful universe? Marvel or DC? Me and some co-workers have been squawking about this all morning.
Although I am a bias DC man, I can't help but feel a prejudice to certain characters in that realm that I feel don't deserve to even be included.
We agreed that Aquaman would beat Namor
The same with Green Arrow defeating Hawkeye
We couldn't even come to terms on who Batman should start out with...
But what really brought the pimple to a head was who could legitimatly take on Superman.
I have the upmost respect for Supes but it's sort of a turn-off if a hero has no real flaws. I mean Kryptonite isn't available at your local Wal-Mart.
Knowing me, I took a stance and said Thor & Hulk would give him a run for his money to perhaps the brink of death. My co-workers retorted me fiercely for even considering it.
Please let's try and leave those DC/Marvel incarnations out of this no matter how hard that might be. That's all about business and bigwigs sitting around a table negotiating which hereoes save face and others that don't. It seems that Supes gets a free pass every time. 8-) Somehow, I don't think that's fair.
I love Marvel characters too but when the dust settles on something that cataclysmic, who's still standing?
Has anyone even thought that Black Bolt could nip this battle in the bud by just uttering?
Excuse me if I've gone off subject somewhat...
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Superman could defeat Black Bolt by using his heat vision to melt his vocal chords from a mile away, before Black Bolt ever even saw him
**** END COMICS FANBOY ALERT ****
The problem with Supes (as my little example above illustrates) is that his powers have truly evolved to godlike proportions over the years. If you take the Kingdom Come Superman into accout, even Kryptonite no longer can hurt him. So the only characters that I can see besting him are ones that can physically match him blow for blow.
I stopped reading Marvel Comics around 1980 so I'm not familiar with new characters or the current powers for characters in the Marvel Universe. The only ones I can think of that could give Supes a run for his money hand to hand would be Thor, Hulk, and maybe Silver Surfer (Power Cosmic and all that). If you want to include the villains, I suppose you could add Apocalyspe and Thanos. Also, Ghost Rider might make things tough since his powers are supernatural and Superman has always had problems with magic.
But in the end, I think Superman wins out every time. His agent is just too good.
Trust me, nothing much has changed with the exception of a few newbies who're inconsequential...
Thank you! I had to show these two tapehead cronies what you wrote.
Apocolypse is overrated actually and Thanos is the same as Darkseid so I can see that. Thanos has a very untrustworthy personna and I've never forgiven him for killing Adam Warlock in Avengers Annual #9? I was on a Warlock kick as a kid.
Still not fair. You've got to admit it can get dull at times. 8-)
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
He seems to walk into traps so arrogantly WITHOUT THOUGHT.
Where as my boy Bats always proceeds with caution. The benefit of not being so trustworthy. Supes is not willing to cross a line even if it is warranted, Bats will and not think anything of it.
When I saw an issue of M vs. DC drawn by George Perez a few years ago, Superman actually picks up Thor's Mjolnir. THEY BREAK ALL SORTS OF LAWS FOR THIS GUY! That's not even supposed to be possible.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I told you, he has a great agent.
Actually, the inscription on the hammer is "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor". If that's the case, then I guess an ice cream and apple pie boy scout do-gooder like Superman should be able to hold it. As I recall, Wonder Woman also held it at one point.
It's almost like your kids witnessing their dad getting his butt beat up by the postman or a school teacher. You never see your dad in that high of a regard anymore. This is what they did with Thor.
And yes, he was held in high esteem with me. I just thought it was unecessarily emmasculating...
Now this is how you draw blood.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
But you said it yourself Rogue, these kinds of "creative" decisions are usually made by stuffy suits in boardrooms, not passionate fans. In the end, they're little more than promotional gimmicks and popularity contests. Superman is more popular than Thor, ergo Superman must win.
That was also why I hated those Marvel vs. DC books from a few years ago where the fans voted who should win. Nobody took into account the characters actual powers and instead voted only for who they liked more. I mean Wolverine beats Lobo??!! Storm beats Wonder Woman??!! What's up with that?
Now that arc escaped me. Was it the early 90s run they did this or the one from 2004?
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I'm most likely thinking of the early '90s as I didn't even know there was another one of those that was done in 2004.
Dear God, where have all the years gone? ?:)
You never put that choice in the hands of fans. Although I'd wish the powers in charge would do their homework with their characters better.
I remember as a small tyke getting my allowance and walking down to the corner store to buy a large magazine of SUPERMAN vs. SHAZAM! Sue me, but I've always sorta favored the big red cheese a bit more. Gets in a couple of good hits on Supes and he ends up getting pulverized.
Same thing happened to him in the JLU cartoon; oddly that tee'ed my son off.
Go to your LCS and request those Perez books from a couple of years ago. They were a hot item as I remember.
STORM beating Wonder Woman...
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I remember that episode. I enjoyed JLU but I hated the "misunderstanding leads to carnage" storylines. For a while there it seemed like every week you had two heros having a misunderstanding and going at it in Act I and then coming to their senses to work together in Act II.
Was that the JLA vs. Avengers book? If yes, I'll definitely look for it as I intended to pick it up and then never got around to it.
Just consider that my version of your Superman vs. Thor story.
Yes, Tony, it was JLA/Avengers.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I clearly remember reading a DC editor saying(sarcastically) that Superman was so powerful he could defeat his opponents just by "hearing real hard."And legendary DC editor Mort Weisinger allowed in the 1950s that Superman is,"invincible,invulnerable-even bad scripts can't hurt him."Jules Fieffer points out in his landmark book The Great Comic Book Heroes(and I paraphrase) that once you've made a character as powerful as Superman,you've immediately plotted him out of any believable conflicts.
Any man who can literally sniff out a star is nearly a god.It gets boring after a while-that's why the writers on the radio show created Kryptonite.I'd really rather Superman was an interstellar Achilles than a red-caped Zeus.
Tony's already mentioned that Superman's powers seem to escalate according to the whims of the readers and that's always been a creative mistake--IMO.John Byrne got it right,in my view.In his take-informed by the original Siegel/Shuster version,the powers manifested themselves gradually-over time-and as a result Clark suffered a few colds,played football in high school and even a broke an arm and leg.This shared experience made him human--a human from another solar system perhaps--but a human nonetheless.The recent movie ignored this stressing his alien side --but the recent animated series didn't, nor did "Lois & Clark" which I though gave Superman a great line in defining precisely how he sees himself.He said to Lois,"Superman is what I do but Clark is who I am."
So anyhow, to the topic at hand,WHO could give Superman a hard time?A few possiblities:
I always liked Mongul.He was a malicious SOB with an frightening exterior who was able to actually steal Superman's very thoughts from him and control his mind.That's scary.
How about an evil Bizarro--minus all of the slap-happy reverse meanings?He/it could give Superman all kinds of grief.Just as s straight villain.
Then there's Black Adam.Yes--I know;he was created by Bill Parker and published by Fawcett,DC's chief rival in the 1940s as a villain for Captain Marvel(not the Marvel Comics version).And DC's tried to kind of rehabilitate him.But since DC owns the Fawcett library(since the early 1970s) there's no reason this ancient warrior with magic based powers couldn't drop by Metropolis.Superman would really have his hands full dealing with such an opponent.
If Superman's Rogue's Gallery seems a bit thin there's no good reason DC can't just take a few promising but sometimes ignored Bad Guys from another hero.It's a shared universe,after all.
Brainiac could give Superman a tough moment or two,and because he's a machine,The Man of Steel wouldn't have to pull his punches.Nor would his adversary.Again--this depends on the quality of the writing.This story has just been animated.
Naturally Darkseid would be a great adversary for Kal-El.Might be fun seeing such a contest in a full on Stars Wars like motion picture--something HUGE and set in space and on other worlds,plus Earth-- with the kind of technology ILM is famous for.
A criminal from a distant galaxy-possibly a mass murderer-armed with one of a deceased Green Lantern's rings decides to visit Earth.Hmmm....imagine Doomsday with a power ring.
Superman need big stories.In the dramatic arena, the animated TV series cartoons has it all over live-action when it comes to presenting Superman in a fully fledged space opera.However,with computer animation as sophisticated as it is today,I think it'd be pretty cool seeing him defend the galaxy from hostile forces from within and without our solar system.
Additionally,I think both DC's and Marvel's universes are evenly matched.Ultimately,it's the imaginations of the writers who determine how well utilized they are.
I'm leaving out the Marvel Comics supervillains and superheroes--not because I don't think they deserve their share of importance but because you asked not to mix and match various company's characters.
Oh heck--Superman would have no trouble defeating Hyperion,however.
The best thing about the intercompany crossovers(and I have most of them)is that some terrific artists who--due to certain contractual obligations-- might never get the chance to draw the rival publisher's characters,can depict them in all their glory.John Buscema doing Superman for example--and his take on the Kryptonian is very impressive-elegant,graceful and one tough customer.The same is true for Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez's rendition of The Hulk.
The downside is that these are almost always contests where no one wins even if the heroes are ridiculously mismatched and have special weapons designed to level the playing field(which is usually the case)Superman Vs.Spider-Man Vol.1,for instance.But these things are almost always awkward compromises designed to appeal to all comic book readers--including the loyal fans of only one company's characters(discounting the crossovers where a heroes' victories are decided by a popular vote).Logic-even comic book logic-rarely plays a role in these teamups/physical matches.It's hard to believe, but there are actually partisans who'll refuse to pick up anything the "opposition" publisher prints,or at least there once were--and sometimes that's their loss.
Consequently,these kinds of books are interesting experiments but are difficult to take seriously.In a very real sense,that's the fault of the participating publishers--which begs the larger question:why should their established heroes fight each other anyway?Yes,yes--I know why--in order to determine who's tougher.But there's never a satisfying answer. C'mon...Storm defeating Princess Diana?Ain't gonna happen.KOing Power Princess, sure...but not the Amazon.
But back to the all-important burning question--WHO could take on Superman and really give him what for?WHO could knock Supes down and keep on coming?Why Popeye,of course...;)
I've never seen such a beautifully shot movie that bored me so much as this turkey. Not only have the priorities of Superman been turned out of kilter, but the people he surrounds himself with (save only for Lex Luthor) are completely boring and listless.
The "five year absense" turned out to be a total throw-away mechanical issue used to make a few of the characters move on. Several plot points are not even ushered into further explanation. I swear this script was written by a Harlequin novelist or something.
I did not like the modifications to the outfit, particularly the squashed muffin heels on Superman's boots. And the final scene with a flying man flying everywhere by means of complete CGI did not fool me in the least.
I am scarcely so disappointed and enraged when I leave a movie theater, but this time around I was definitely incendiary.
Well... Than consider these insane comic pages:
http://www.seanbaby.com/hostess.htm
WARNING: Commentaries may not be suitable for children!!!
Agent Wade, I want to congratulate you for having such a perceptive wife. Her intuition saved you from being consumed by one of these pods on the board. And maybe that's it; W.B. had the ushers in theatres place pods by the seats because they knew this flick would be a snoozer! There's really no other excuse as to why they'd like this film.
Glad you saw the light. {[]
Somewhere, the real W.G. & Tony DP are nothing more than dust particles dispsersed in the air...
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Now I can drink to that. {[]
W.G., you are by far the Andy Rooney of the AJB boards.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Actually, the answer to the question "Who could beat Superman" is very simple: Mrs. Superman!
Now, all you poor married wretches, repeat after me: "Yes Dear."
Automatic Kryptonite I'm afraid. Tread courtship carefully, Tony.
You've been warned...
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I keep saying I'm too old to get married anymore, yet one of my friends is 46 and is getting married to a 27 year old next month. So I suppose I could yet fall off the wagon.
Still, all my relationships seem to end quickly when I ask her to put on the Wonder Woman costume. I wonder why...
See there's the problem....you should've put on the codpiece. Role play it, man!
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Hmmm...I don't think that's a compliment.I can only respond to such a bizarre comment by saying that I liked the way SR looked--although I do not approve of the needless modifications made to Superman's costume.They were pointless.
Additionally,I think Superman should always part his hair from the left to the right--that's the best way to create the "S" shaped strand that falls across his forehead with any ease-- along with matching the majority of the artistic renditions of this character(How's THAT for geeky?).
I also don't care to see Luthor played for laughs--I like the one of the animated series best:a very dangerous SOB.
I didn't like the story either.
However, I'm well aware that most moviemakers despise comics, and it's a rare day when a filmmaker really takes the trouble to put a famous comics character on the screen without first trying to improve or reinvent it.I think we're extremely lucky if 70% to 80 % of these things survive the transition from one medium to another without being tampered with.
* * *
The 2 biggest problems comic book/strip based movies will probably always face are:
1)Getting the right actors(those who actually represent acceptable physical matches of the illustrated characters).Without that-a film's already in trouble.Casting against type is always a mistake(Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne,Halle Berry as Catwoman,for example).This happens all too frequently and no matter how a director may want to explain it away,it's always wrong and can damage the movie severely.
2)A good story.It all begins with that.The story should be foremost in the minds of the filmmakers--not an afterthought.Get quality writers.Approach these as serious ADVENTURE films--not movies for the kiddies.Most of the recent comics based movies look great but don't have a plot worthy of their characters.Without a good story that can take full advantage of it's heroes and their unique qualities, the movie's already dead(Batman Begins,The Phantom and the 2 Spider-Man movies are great examples of films that really respect their characters and give them the kinds of stories they deserve).A cynical comic-based movie may sell toys perhaps, but it'll always be creatively empty and ultimately worthless.There are too many of these being made.
Well, okay....you did have some concerns about this picture. Please don't take the quip the wrong way, W.G. Not my intention at all. Just passin' time and havin' fun.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I know you're kidding Rogue--and I'm not offended at all.Good lord-I've been called a LOT worse than a speck of dust in my lifetime.I certainly didn't take your remark personally.
Truth to tell,I usually have issues--not with you or anybody on this board--but with most of the people who make comic book based movies.
They're rarely done well-for every Batman Begins and Hellboy, there's a Catwoman.It's just the way things are:only a few filmmakers really take the comics seriously in the sense that they respect and appreciate the medium.Fewer still seem willing to try to capture the flavor of a comic strip/book when making their movie.
All too often I'll see filmmakers discussing comics as if they're some esoteric object from a long dead civilization.
Look at all the directors and screenwriters who say things like,"We really weren't sure how to approach this.After all,it IS a comic book.Do we take it seriously, or do we play it for laughs?"
Also,"It's hard to imagine these things on the screen.I mean,they're just for kids,right?Frankly,I'm surprised they're still being published..."
And then there are the actors in these films--they'll often say things like:"Oh no--I NEVER read comics when I was growing up.I was too busy studying Shakespeare.And for a while,I wasn't sure if I should play my character as if it was a caricature or not."
I don't take comics based movies and TV shows as seriously as I once did--and I wrote my Master's on this topic.I used to be extremely incensed if liberties were taken with a favorite character.Usually there weren't too many big changes, but that's because the characters I've liked are generally so well-known even people who don't read comics know something about them, so radical alterations are out of the question.
I really think that if most of the look and the unique qualities of a specific character can manage to find their ways to the screen in a reasonable and recognizably faithful manner,that's as much as a comics fan can hope for.
They're been some very good comic book movies.They're not all as wonderful as we might like--that's disappointing,but not horrible.It's just how things are.
Marvel has been very smart by coproducing their movies.They have a strong say in the making of their related films.DC's trying to do the same thing--that's good.Hopefully this will prevent filmmakers from completely rewriting characters to the point where only the preestablished name is retained.
Back to your earlier question--who has the best realized universe:Marvel or DC.It's a good question.But it's difficult,maybe impossible to answer with any degree of certainty.
In a way,it reminds me of a question posed to Angel by Spike on the "Angel" TV series.It was this:If cavemen and astronauts fought,who'd win?Spike favored the Neanderthals.However, Angel answered with another question:do the astronauts have weapons?
It's all in the writing and always will be.IMO
There are times when I feel that Superman is a worn commodity. It's the Pirates and Spiderman generation we're enduring through about now and not that I mind.
I make frequent visits to my LCS and usually the biz that comes through is the 30+ crowd...Maybe a kid here and there and that's what my LCS guy says, not me.
Do you think the demographic, for Supes, is the old school crowd in general? And are we the only ones who really keep him afloat?
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I think that's a good observation Rogue. Most younger people I talk to really don't dig the character all that much. He isn't "edgy" or "hip" enough for them and it's old geezers like us who have more of an appreciation for him. Of course, that same young audience is pretty fickle and what is hot today can be quickly forgotten tomorrow.
I think there's a little tortoise and hare analogy here somewhere. Superman, despite his ups and downs, has survived for almost 70 years. He's become part of our popular culture and as such he'll never totally go away and will most likely survive the fickle whims of the younger masses. I remember all the incredible publicity during the whole "Death of Superman" thing. He may be taken for granted, but when people thought we were going to lose him, they stood up and said "wait a minute!". Even mainstream media like Time and Newsweek ran cover stories on it.
20 years from now Pirates will be a quaint little footnote in some film book. But I firmly believe that anybody with a semi-functioning brain will still know who Superman is and he will still be a thriving and viable property. Taking a long-term view I think he'll even outlast the likes of Spiderman and X-Men, who have both come pretty close to biting the big one on numerous occasions over the years and whose success I feel is firmly tied to the current generation.
As for the current travails of Superman Returns (and that's a relative term since it looks to take in about as much as Batman Begins when all is said and done), all Singer needed to do was lose the kid and the love triangle, give us a little more action, and I guarantee it would have added significantly to the box office. I enjoyed Superman Returns for what it was, but a borderline chick-flick is not the stuff box office dreams are made of. Nor is it indicative of a worthy or even faithful Superman story.
There's probably a lot of truth to this-but only as it pertains to the dramatized versions of The Man of Steel.Let's remember that there is more than one version of Superman in the public consciousness.There are at least two distinct renditions of Superman and although they resemble oneanother they aren't exactly alike.
They are:
I.The original comic book character-who has slowly evolved over time without undergoing massive alterations.
II The dramatized versions as presented on Radio,TV,and in Movies.
I suspect that more people are familiar with the Superman of the movies than any other rendition--and that's too bad, because this interpretation has been severely limited in part due to the costs of putting such a character on the screen.But the biggest problem the movie Superman has always had is the contents of his stories.Heroes are only as good as the villains they encounter and only as impressive as they are allowed to be.It's hard to put Superman on the screen,but after the proper actors are selected it's often harder to make him interesting to the casual viewer and the longtime fan alike.This shouldn't be the case but more often than not this is what-IMO,anyway-occurs.
Comic book writer Mark Waid was shocked to discover a few years ago that the 20-Somethings he'd surveyed prior to his rewriting Superman's origin story prefered "Smallville" over the Reeve Superman films.That's why he shoehorned some awkward sequences reminiscent of "Smallville":Lex living there and once knowing Clark as a teen--which,ironically came from a 1960s Superboy story to begin with--into his story.
The general quality of the stories in the movies actually hurt the cinematic Superman,because seeing Superman fly just isn't enough anymore.If Superman had,for example,an Armegeddon type of saving-an-Earth-in-jeopardy kind of film(against something SO dangerous he might not return,and certainly not unscathed),or something setting him on distant planets in intergalactic wars;as opposed to finding himself (seemingly)continually trading insults with the movie version of Lex Luthor--who although claiming to be the most brilliant man on the planet,has now been reduced to being a land speculator--I think Superman would be much more popular as a film hero.We have to see him do something truly SUPERHUMAN and the films generally fail to deliver on that score.There are the random instances when he fights General Zod,for example,but those moments are all too rare.And the "Smallville" TV series pretty much overexposes Kryptonite so that's not much of a dramatic device any longer.
I think reducing the extent of his superpowers in both the comics and the movies,would make Superman more compelling and even more identifiable for audiences.It's hard to care about someone who can do almost anything imaginable and can do it perfectly.Superman needs great villains and great storylines.Having Lois become a mother and "move on with her life"(I really dislike this phrase) after attacking Supes in print for abandoning her,isn't enough.It has a brief impact, but it's not enough to drive a story.It's like moving the furniture around and making a few minor alterations, but overall it's not really as important as the filmmakers probably thought it would be.This situation creates a new obstacle for the Superman/Lois romance but it doesn't offer him a tangible adversary.Making changes in the famous costume(WHY?)didn't advance the storyline either.
Stories taking full advantage of this classic character are what I would like to see and I'm not sure they're on the horizon.I think Superman Returns is an exposition film--in its own way as much as the original Superman was.In all fairness,Bryan Singer has often said that SR is a "Chick Flick"--something women would want to see,as opposed to being something their boyfriends might have to drag them to see.
Perhaps on that level it's a success,but Superman is an action hero--he's the ORIGINAL superhero,the king and father of them all.As befitting his stature,Superman deserves a movie that allows him to go all out and display his unique abilities.The comics do this on a fairly regular basis,the animated series did this well, so surely a Superman movie can accomplish this too.Unfortunately,it looks like Singer and his writers have intentionally limited the perameters of their potential Superman storylines in order to directly echo what Donner and Mankiewicz(plus possible minor elements from the Puzo/Newmans' unfilmable screenplay) established earlier, and they cannot/will not look any further--thus the comical Luthor and his gunmoll.Thus the palid plot.
We all know that the technology exists to create a great Superman movie.Maybe the sequel to Superman Returns will be less derivative of the 1978 film and more imaginative and exciting.I sure hope so.
But never fear,Rogue--as a character, Superman is an immortal:he'll never disappear.No movies-be they good or bad or simply indifferent- will ever adversely affect The Man of Steel.He's invulnerable,after all.Superman certainly doesn't need mere movies to somehow validate his existence.He's above that.:)