You had issues with the cowl too? Yeah, tack me on for a return to the yellow oval as well.
His codpiece was fine though. )
Yeah, I didn't care for the cowl much; when looking at it straight on it did have an awkward shape to it.
As for Kilmer, I'm really curious as to what you didn't like. Was he too much of a pretty boy? Or is it (ala Superman Returns) the movie as a whole that taints your opinion of the lead?
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You had issues with the cowl too? Yeah, tack me on for a return to the yellow oval as well.
His codpiece was fine though. )
You and these codpieces. )
Yeah, I didn't care for the cowl much; when looking at it straight on it did have an awkward shape to it.
For me it was pretty much everything about the design of it; the neck alone looked very awkward and uncomfortable, it didn't contour to Bale's face to me and it simply wasn't streamlined enough for my tastes as maybe Clooney's was. I have read certain websites that have reported that Bale didn't care much for wearing it; fanboys would have you think otherwise 8-)...
As for Kilmer, I'm really curious as to what you didn't like. Was he too much of a pretty boy? Or is it (ala Superman Returns) the movie as a whole that taints your opinion of the lead?
To be honest, I don't think that I could come up with a staunch, plausible reason as to why Kilmer was as cold to me enough to mount a proper defense.
I will say that he played both sides of the coin quite wooden. As Wayne he didn't have that beguiling touch that Bale displayed very well yet remained tortured, his dialogue was robotic and the cast around him only adds to my disdain for his portrayal with Carrey playing The Riddler as Jim Carrey/Ace Ventura, etc. (take your pick ) and Tommy Lee Jones was a miscast anyway and just played too silly. I mean not to really rant but Kilmer just didn't look the part; perhaps he should've studied Adam West's version. Despite all its campiness, West played it cool and believable with the imagery.
And in some instances, sometimes you just don't like cetain actors in certain parts like someone else we know... :v. Y'know...the human factor.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Yeah, Em. I too still hold Keaton's version in high regard.
I could never understand all the criticism that Keaton received.
In my opinion he's much too small,much too ordinary looking, and not the leading man type Bruce Wayne always was(and still is) in the comics.One can argue that since Batman wears a mask, he doesn't have to be played by a handsome actor--but that'd be wrong.Bruce Wayne is almost always under suspicion by the Gotham City police as one of the men who might secretly be Batman.His square jaw,his Olympic-level athletic physique easily suggest this--along with his extreme wealth.So it's up to Wayne to try to redirect attention away from himself.Despite that,he remains a very credible candidate to be The Dark Knight's alter ego.
None of this was in the Burton Batman movie,which really should be called The Joker,considering the amount of time and attention lavished on that character.Burton made it known just after he was signed to direct Batman that he "loathed" Batman(his word) and had talked Keaton into playing Batman because he was lonely and wanted a friend with him while making the movie in Britain.
The opportunity to select a less well known actor who came closer to the mark visually--ala' Christopher Reeve as Superman/Clark Kent,which was the original plan early on and was definitely screenwriter Sam Hamm's hope-- was thrown aside in order to cast Betelguse and Mr.Mom instead.I think this was a fatal blow the movie never recovered from.Then the screenplay was tinkered with--and that really wasn't an improvement,in my opinion.But the newer changes did allow Burton to make his mark and leave it behind.And the second film is a surly freak show with only Michelle Pfieffer's Catwoman as a redeeming feature.
Like Tony,I prefer Val Kilmer's take on Wayne.He's handsome and believable as Bruce Wayne.He's even athletic, and Batman Forever is the first film in the original quartet in which Batman actually is the central figure, and he even acts like something resembling the detective Batman is supposed to be.I've been a Batman fan since around 1957, and have never much liked Robin but the introduction of Robin in this movie(closely modelled upon Bill Finger's original comic book story)works very well.And the adult Chris O'Donnell plays the role with enough conviction to make the unlikely partnership credible.
I always thought George Clooney could've been an excellent Batman--he had the potential-- if only his film had been MUCH more restrained, and had had something at least faintly resembling a real story, as opposed to a brightly-colored over-the-top manic toy commercial.An entirely different screenplay was called for--something a shade more serious.Clooney has the jawline and the darkly handsome features associated with the traditional image of Bruce Wayne and Batman as they are regularly depicted in the comics.One villain would've been enough--and good lord,NOT,NOT Arnold camping it up as Mr.Freeze.Clooney takes a lot of flak for the deserved failure of his Batman movie, but the greatest actor in the world couldn't have saved that steaming pile.
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Hey, guys if you love Kilmer, so be it. For me he was just meh...
I suppose these actors are as highly debatable as the Bond ones.
You forgot to mention Adam West in your post, W.G. Is he in high regard for you or are your numb on his tenor?
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Hey, guys if you love Kilmer, so be it. For me he was just meh...
I suppose these actors are as highly debatable as the Bond ones.
You forgot to mention Adam West in your post, W.G. Is he in high regard for you or are your numb on his tenor?
I like Adam West just fine.He looked right and sounded right(I remembered seeing him as Captain Quik in a 007-like TV commercial prior to the Batman TV series.He was in other stuff too,like the series Robert Taylor's The Detectives).I've always thought that he caught the spirit of the character(as presented in the 50s and mid-60s) and managed to keep a sense of dignity as well.Burt Ward was very good as Dick/Robin, and old pros Alan Napier and Neil Hamilton were terrific as Alfred and Commissioner Gordon.Frank Gorshin really made The Riddler his own(weirdly enough,he actually--IMO--resembled Dick Sprang's rendition of the character).And I've always thought Burgess Meredith was a masterstroke of casting as The Penguin.I liked all of the Catwomen, although my favorite remains Julie Newmar.The show was fun--lightweight,yes--but that wasn't a bad thing at all.
My absolute favorite dramatic version of Batman is the animated one from the 1990s TV series.The stories are all of a remarkably high standard and overall demonstrate an outstanding fidelity to their source material.
My favorite live-action Batman is the one played by Christian Bale.Batman Begins is easily the best of the feature films and does justice to the character.And in Bale there's an actor who LOOKS like Bruce Wayne playing Bruce Wayne.Plus the excellent Gary Oldman is a perfect visual match for Commissioner Gordon(as depicted in "Batman:Year One").Amazing....
I find Adam West catches a lot of flack from the fanboy brigade; they often villify him for making Batman so comical.
For my money, West perfectly epitomized Batman as he appeared in the sanitized, comics-code censored books of the 50's and 60's. He brought a ton of energy and enthusiasm to the role and kept it alive and thiving when everybody else had written it off. Physically, he looked excellent (much more debonair than Keaton could ever have hoped to be). It wasn't his fault that the character was so lighthearted during that period.
I think his interpretation of the character is every bit as valid as his successors (and predecessors). The 1966 Batman movie is right next to the later editions in my DVD collection and I'd snap up the TV series in a second if it was ever released on DVD.
As for Catwoman, Julie Newmar is fine but Lee Meriwether's version from the 1966 movie is still my favorite. For a "G" rated movie, she really oozed sex appeal both in and out of the costume.
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I agree about Lee. WOW! None of the other Catwomans (weren't there two others?) could compare.
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A guy sent this to me at work probably knowing that I don't watch MTV but I love Batman - It has a few chuckles in it.
I find Adam West catches a lot of flack from the fanboy brigade; they often villify him for making Batman so comical.
For my money, West perfectly epitomized Batman as he appeared in the sanitized, comics-code censored books of the 50's and 60's. He brought a ton of energy and enthusiasm to the role and kept it alive and thiving when everybody else had written it off. Physically, he looked excellent (much more debonair than Keaton could ever have hoped to be). It wasn't his fault that the character was so lighthearted during that period.
I think his interpretation of the character is every bit as valid as his successors (and predecessors). The 1966 Batman movie is right next to the later editions in my DVD collection and I'd snap up the TV series in a second if it was ever released on DVD.
As for Catwoman, Julie Newmar is fine but Lee Meriwether's version from the 1966 movie is still my favorite. For a "G" rated movie, she really oozed sex appeal both in and out of the costume.
Agreed!Lee's so sexy she could practically burn a hole in the screen.That she was only Catwoman once,and yet still projects a powerful appeal to men of every age in this role is something she can always be proud of.This Miss America was a very hot number,indeed!
Well in the 1989 movie, Batman blows up Axis Chemicals, killing who knows how many goons and thugs. Also, at the beginning of the movie, the two thugs talk about how Johnny Gobbs was killed after falling off a roof. And in Batman Returns, he attaches a bomb to one of Penguin's thugs and throws him down a manhole, after which we hear the resulting explosion as Batman casually walks away.
Mind you, back in the late 30's Batman did kill in the books, but in the 40's and ever since, the books went out of their way to highlight that Batman would never kill.
I had forgotten about those examples. I personally have never had a problem with Batman killing. It's not simply that I don't have a problem with cinematic characters killing but also, unlike Superman, I have always looked at Batman as an 'adult' superhero. When I saw 1989's Batman for the first time (I must have been about 9), watching him kill people gave the film a real edge; as opposed to the 60's show which was so incredibly camp. I would have been disappointed if he had simply knocked people out. Now, I figure that there is a reason I'm watching Batman and not Superman.
He did go brunette in Batman Forever; the hair was very shiny maybe that's what threw you off. I happened to like his interpretation. His Wayne was charming with the ladies but still riddled with ansgt. And he was smart enough to disguise his voice as Batman. Even though everything around him got more and more outlandish, he pretty much played it straight from start to finish. Also, like Bale, his Batman had a very strong moral code; he wasn't afraid to get tough with the thugs but he would not kill. And he took it upon himself to take Dick Grayson under his wing rather than cast him off to some orphanage. I could have done without the nipples on the Batsuit but that was hardly Kilmer's fault.
Perhaps you're right that the shininess of the hair threw me off. I actually quite liked Kilmer's performance. I don't think his was among the best of the Batmans but, yeh, I liked him. As a matter of fact, I like all of the Batmans.
Here is how I see them:
West- Great Bruce Wayne, terrific Batman. I don't care what anybody says, Adam West rocked! IMO he was the second best Batman overall.
Keaton- Very good Bruce Wayne. I think the tone of his performance was perfectly appropiate considering the reason he became Batman in the first place. I also disagree with WG in that I think Keaton was hansome enough. As Batman, I think that Keaton was brilliant. He was intimidating, enormously convincing and as for this discussion about his height, that has never been an issue for me. In fact, among my numerous criticisms of Craig have never been that he's too short. As long as Batman is taller than Tom Cruise, then I'm happy. IMO he was the third best Batman overall.
Kilmer- A good Bruce Wayne and a very good Batman. My problem however is that he didn't conform to my vision of Batman (as created by Adam West/Michael Keaton), and although good, Kilmer had the misfortune of coming after a man whom I consider to be an absolutely brilliant Batman. IMO he was the fourth best Batman overall.
Clooney- An alright Bruce Wayne and a pretty good Batman. Although I consider him to be the weakest of all the Batmans, I don't think he was that bad at all. In fact I would go as far as to describe him as underrated. The problem with Batman and Robin isn't IMO Clooney or Arnold (whom I think did a pretty good job considering) or any of the other actors. The problem is the script which must surely rank as one of the worst screenplays of all time. Clooney did okay but when he has to utter lines like "This is why Superman works alone." The script was dreadful and add to that the countless and pointless action scenes which were completely uninteresting (and this is from an action fan who usually loves 'countless and pointless action scenes'), I really don't think that Clooney deserves any blame. I think he did a fair job considering the obstacles.
Bale- Brilliant Bruce Wayne. Awesome Batman. IMO the best of the lot. I would however like to be able to actually see him fight in the next film.
Just to sumup, my best to worst:
1)Bale
2)West
3)Keaton
4)Kilmer*
5)Clooney
*Kilmer and Clooney are well below the top three.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I had forgotten about those examples. I personally have never had a problem with Batman killing. It's not simply that I don't have a problem with cinematic characters killing but also, unlike Superman, I have always looked at Batman as an 'adult' superhero.
Strictly speaking though, if a guy starts this because of the murder of people close to him, he should really try to be better than the people he's fighting by not killing them.
Strictly speaking though, if a guy starts this because of the murder of people close to him, he should really try to be better than the people he's fighting by not killing them.
Maybe, but perhaps the significance of this is that there is not much difference between those that he's fighting and himself. At least that seems to be the message of the first two Batman films. Even in Batman Begins, Wayne worries about wether or not he is just like those that he is fighting.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
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Ledger Talks Joker. This from yesterday's article: HEATH LEDGER TALKS JOKER
by Daniel Robert Epstein
I recently got the chance to talk with Heath Ledger at a press roundtable for the movie Candy. While on the hot seat I got the chance to grill Ledger about his upcoming role of The Joker in The Dark Knight.
Daniel Robert Epstein: Have you started to think about how you will play The Joker?
Heath Ledger: Yeah. I’ve been trying to delay my commitment to the preparation process on that because I’m trying to extend my holiday time. I definitely have an image in my head. I definitely have something up my sleeve. I want to be very sinister. It’s so early that I’m trying to be open at this point. I don’t want to be glued down to anyone.
DRE: Have you read many Batman comics?
HL: No and I think that’s kind of helping me a little bit. I was never really a fan of comic books or comic book movies. I never despised them but I was never one to read them. I never sought out the films but I would sit down and enjoy them. So because of that I really feel that I’m not carrying much pressure.
DRE: Have they given or asked you to read certain comics?
HL: The Killing Joke was the one that was handed to me. I think it’s going to be the beginning of The Joker. I guess that book explains a little bit of where he’s from but not too much. From what I’ve gathered, there isn’t a lot of information about The Joker and it’s left that way.
DRE: Is doing the role of The Joker scary after Jack Nicholson did it so well?
HL: I’m not going for the same thing he went for. That would be stupid. It is also two very different directors with different styles. Tim Burton did a more fantastical kind of thing and Chris Nolan is doing nitty gritty handheld realism. I love what [Jack] did and that is part of why I want to do that role. I remember seeing it and thinking how much fun it would be to put on that mask and attempt to do something along those lines. But it would obviously be murder if I tried to imitate what he did.
DRE: They’re talking about bringing in the co-creator of The Joker, Jerry Robinson, as a consultant on The Dark Knight. I don’t know if it would be more of an honorary title.
HL: It probably is [laughs].
DRE: Have you ever wanted to do superhero movies before?
HL: Not really. With the tights and undies and the boots, I would just feel stupid and silly. I couldn’t pull it off and there are other people who can perfectly. But I just couldn’t take myself seriously. I feel like this is an opportunity to be in one and not do that. I just gravitated towards the villain role because I felt I had something to give to it. I instantly had an idea.
DRE: Have you done screen tests with The Joker makeup yet?
HL: No, but I did do 3-D image scanning. I don’t know what they’re doing with it. This Bat truck turned up at my place in L.A.. It had these gadgets and cameras that zoom around you and up and down you. It instantly projects a three dimensional image of you. I’ve never used anything that high tech before in a film. I felt like I was in the truck from Knight Rider.
All this talk of "nitty gritty handheld realism" concerns me a bit. These are comic book characters and I hope Nolan and Co. don't forget that completely. The last thing we need is another Batman Returns were the only similarity between the film and comic were peoples' names.
All this talk of "nitty gritty handheld realism" concerns me a bit. These are comic book characters and I hope Nolan and Co. don't forget that completely. The last thing we need is another Batman Returns were the only similarity between the film and comic were peoples' names.
The fight scenes in BB were impossible to watch IMO. I would love to be able to see the fights in the second film, even if it means a little less "nitty gritty handheld realism."
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
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All this talk of "nitty gritty handheld realism" concerns me a bit. These are comic book characters and I hope Nolan and Co. don't forget that completely. The last thing we need is another Batman Returns were the only similarity between the film and comic were peoples' names.
I'm sure you've heard the conflicts involved when filming Begins with Nolan and staff.
Nolan was called on quite a few things that would've carried the Batman mythos too far left or right. I can't remember some of the things he tried to impliment but the staff warned him that if he tried something too drastic to the character's personna, then the public would hang him for sure. It's been said that Bats would have been too down to earth and thespian...
As far as Ledger's involvement, he doesn't sound too enthusiastic about playing such a memorable villian; perhaps it's just me and he's really just playing it down but I'd like to hear abit more vigor in his interviews. IMO, he's already a questionable choice so I hope he does his homework properly.
This "more with the eyes" crud he's selling us means nothing to me; if the Joker doesn't have the signature laugh, I'm going to have a problem.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I'm sure you've heard the conflicts involved when filming Begins with Nolan and staff.
Nolan was called on quite a few things that would've carried the Batman mythos too far left or right. I can't remember some of the things he tried to impliment but the staff warned him that if he tried something too drastic to the character's personna, then the public would hang him for sure. It's been said that Bats would have been too down to earth and thespian...
It sounds vaguely like what Tim Burton went thru with Batman and Batman Returns; he was largely under a microscope with the first and when that was a hit they loosened his leash considerably on #2; we all know how that ended up. 8-) For everybody's sake, I hope Nolan doesn't fall into the same trap.
As far as Ledger's involvement, he doesn't sound too enthusiastic about playing such a memorable villian; perhaps it's just me and he's really just playing it down but I'd like to hear abit more vigor in his interviews. IMO, he's already a questionable choice so I hope he does his homework properly.
This "more with the eyes" crud he's selling us means nothing to me; if the Joker doesn't have the signature laugh, I'm going to have a problem.
Sounds more like he wants to channel Alex from A Clockwork Orange than the 4 color comic. Again, I hope somebody has the sense to warn these people about the pitfalls of straying too far from the source material.
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He needs to channel The Joker laugh; screw that "eye" bunk...
Here's a good place to start his research. Best laugh of all the J-Man actors. B-)
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I just don't see Nolan or Ledger going in that direction Rogue. I have no proof at all, but my gut tells me they're going to go more for something like this:
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True, Tony but even that version laughs. Nolan and Ledger are talking much creepier. Although THE KILLING JOKE is a great story you still got a sense of levity from the character.
I don't know about you but I've always rooted for Joker because there was always a side of him that was likable, I laughed at his hijinks no matter how crude they were especially BTAS.
This may be the first time ever that I actually hate him for what he does...although I came close in Batman Beyond: ROTJ.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
True, Tony but even that version laughs. Nolan and Ledger are talking much creepier. Although THE KILLING JOKE is a great story you still got a sense of levity from the character.
He's also shown as a very tragic character; but when he gets nasty (like shooting Barbara Gordon) it gets very ugly.
My fear with Nolan and Ledger is that they will focus on that ugliness without the pathos. If you turn Joker into a one dimensional character who does what he does for no reason, the character becomes much less interesting. Even Nicholson's version had some motivation, having been driven insane by his disfigurement.
I don't know about you but I've always rooted for Joker because there was always a side of him that was likable, I laughed at his hijinks no matter how crude they were especially BTAS.
Funny you mention that; I was watching BTAS last night and they played Mad Love, the episode where we discover how Harley Quinn met and hooked up with the Joker. That one goes heavy on the humor and cruelty; Joker throws Harley out a window at one point and when he pulls a knife on Batman, he's drawn in quite a scary way. It's a really great analysis of the characters; sadly, I doubt Nolan and Co. are even aware of it.
But I agree that for BB Part 2, the Joker will probably be pretty much irredeemable; I just hope they come up some suitably dark yet humorous agenda and MO for the Clown Prince of Crime and give his actions some context and give the viewers a reason for why he does what he does.
A little more info has cropped up on B:TDK. Heath Ledger says he views Joker as a complete anarchist and isn't really thinking about the commercial expectations of the role; Rachel McAdams is rumored to be up for a part (isn't she also rumored to be in Iron Man?). Here's a link:
A little more info has cropped up on B:TDK. Heath Ledger says he views Joker as a complete anarchist and isn't really thinking about the commercial expectations of the role; Rachel McAdams is rumored to be up for a part (isn't she also rumored to be in Iron Man?). Here's a link:
Hmmmmm....the jury's still out to how I feel he will approach The Joker; as long as he doesn't get too artsy with the role I guess he'll be okay.
I'm glad to read here that they're working on Bats costume. Fix the friggin' cowl while they're at it I hope...and perhaps the yellow oval on the chest? I know it's wishful thinking...
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Has anyone read Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Strikes Again? I'm toying with the idea of ordering this on amazon but it has mixed reviews.
Well Arthur, I thought it was a terrible book; basically a mish-mash of ideas already used in Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Comes. The art was atrocious and positively juvenile. The story was your typical Frank Miller "the system is corrupt / never trust authority figures / power to the people!" crap (sorry but he's very much a one trick pony these days in my book). It also didn't help matters that Batman was drawn as this old bald dude with a never-ending supply of bruises and blemishes. The only redeeming part of the story for me was that...
Green Lantern Hal Jordan saves the day at the end.
Here's a wikipedia page with more info (but it does have spoilers)
My copy of The Dark Knight Strikes Again is on the way I ordered it before I noticed the feedback from the experts.
That's what you get for not listening to the panel of experts. Seriously though, rating these books is a subjective thing. You never know; you may end up enjoying it.
Apart from Dark Knight Returns, Killing Joke, Year One, Death in the Family, (the ones I have) which are the best Batman graphic novels/collections?
A few that come immediately to mind:
The Long Halloween - 13 part maxi-series retelling Batman's early days, the hunt for a killer who kills on holidays, how Harvey Dent became Two-Face, and the gradual transfer of power in Gotham from the organized crime bosses to the supervillains.
Blind Justice - Written by Sam Hamm (who wrote the screenplay to the 1989 movie) and timed to coincide with Batman's 50th Anniversary; this one is more about Bruce Wayne and really gets us inside his head. The ending is both heartbreaking and shocking; even though it occurs within regular continuity.
Batman/Punisher: Lake of Fire & Punisher/Batman: Deadly Knights - Two of my favorite crossovers; think a buddy cop movie gone horribly wrong. The Punisher comes to Gotham City to look for Jigsaw; Joker also factors into story. The first book occurs while Jean Paul Valley (aka Azrael) was going around as Batman. The second (and better) book occurs after Bruce Wayne has resumed the mantle of the Dark Knight. Some really good writing in both stories and a pretty surprising ending to the second book as well.
Batman: Year Two: Fear The Reaper - Batman tangles with The Reaper, Gotham's first vigilante. Another good tale about Batman's formative years.
Batman/Judge Dredd: Judgment on Gotham - The first and best Batman/Dredd crossover. Batman somehow gets transported to Megacity 1 and runs afoul of Dredd as Judge Death finds his way to present day Gotham and hooks up with the Scarecrow. The final confrontation, in the middle of a rock concert no less, is a hoot; as is the panel where Scarecrow sprays Death with his fear toxin.
There's more - I'll have to rummage thru my collection.
A question for the experts: I'm assuming that the nicknames 'The Dark Knight' and 'The Caped Crusader' come from the comic books. How exactly did they come about?
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Comments
His codpiece was fine though.
Yeah, I didn't care for the cowl much; when looking at it straight on it did have an awkward shape to it.
As for Kilmer, I'm really curious as to what you didn't like. Was he too much of a pretty boy? Or is it (ala Superman Returns) the movie as a whole that taints your opinion of the lead?
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
In my opinion he's much too small,much too ordinary looking, and not the leading man type Bruce Wayne always was(and still is) in the comics.One can argue that since Batman wears a mask, he doesn't have to be played by a handsome actor--but that'd be wrong.Bruce Wayne is almost always under suspicion by the Gotham City police as one of the men who might secretly be Batman.His square jaw,his Olympic-level athletic physique easily suggest this--along with his extreme wealth.So it's up to Wayne to try to redirect attention away from himself.Despite that,he remains a very credible candidate to be The Dark Knight's alter ego.
None of this was in the Burton Batman movie,which really should be called The Joker,considering the amount of time and attention lavished on that character.Burton made it known just after he was signed to direct Batman that he "loathed" Batman(his word) and had talked Keaton into playing Batman because he was lonely and wanted a friend with him while making the movie in Britain.
The opportunity to select a less well known actor who came closer to the mark visually--ala' Christopher Reeve as Superman/Clark Kent,which was the original plan early on and was definitely screenwriter Sam Hamm's hope-- was thrown aside in order to cast Betelguse and Mr.Mom instead.I think this was a fatal blow the movie never recovered from.Then the screenplay was tinkered with--and that really wasn't an improvement,in my opinion.But the newer changes did allow Burton to make his mark and leave it behind.And the second film is a surly freak show with only Michelle Pfieffer's Catwoman as a redeeming feature.
Like Tony,I prefer Val Kilmer's take on Wayne.He's handsome and believable as Bruce Wayne.He's even athletic, and Batman Forever is the first film in the original quartet in which Batman actually is the central figure, and he even acts like something resembling the detective Batman is supposed to be.I've been a Batman fan since around 1957, and have never much liked Robin but the introduction of Robin in this movie(closely modelled upon Bill Finger's original comic book story)works very well.And the adult Chris O'Donnell plays the role with enough conviction to make the unlikely partnership credible.
I always thought George Clooney could've been an excellent Batman--he had the potential-- if only his film had been MUCH more restrained, and had had something at least faintly resembling a real story, as opposed to a brightly-colored over-the-top manic toy commercial.An entirely different screenplay was called for--something a shade more serious.Clooney has the jawline and the darkly handsome features associated with the traditional image of Bruce Wayne and Batman as they are regularly depicted in the comics.One villain would've been enough--and good lord,NOT,NOT Arnold camping it up as Mr.Freeze.Clooney takes a lot of flak for the deserved failure of his Batman movie, but the greatest actor in the world couldn't have saved that steaming pile.
I suppose these actors are as highly debatable as the Bond ones.
You forgot to mention Adam West in your post, W.G. Is he in high regard for you or are your numb on his tenor?
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I like Adam West just fine.He looked right and sounded right(I remembered seeing him as Captain Quik in a 007-like TV commercial prior to the Batman TV series.He was in other stuff too,like the series Robert Taylor's The Detectives).I've always thought that he caught the spirit of the character(as presented in the 50s and mid-60s) and managed to keep a sense of dignity as well.Burt Ward was very good as Dick/Robin, and old pros Alan Napier and Neil Hamilton were terrific as Alfred and Commissioner Gordon.Frank Gorshin really made The Riddler his own(weirdly enough,he actually--IMO--resembled Dick Sprang's rendition of the character).And I've always thought Burgess Meredith was a masterstroke of casting as The Penguin.I liked all of the Catwomen, although my favorite remains Julie Newmar.The show was fun--lightweight,yes--but that wasn't a bad thing at all.
My absolute favorite dramatic version of Batman is the animated one from the 1990s TV series.The stories are all of a remarkably high standard and overall demonstrate an outstanding fidelity to their source material.
My favorite live-action Batman is the one played by Christian Bale.Batman Begins is easily the best of the feature films and does justice to the character.And in Bale there's an actor who LOOKS like Bruce Wayne playing Bruce Wayne.Plus the excellent Gary Oldman is a perfect visual match for Commissioner Gordon(as depicted in "Batman:Year One").Amazing....
For my money, West perfectly epitomized Batman as he appeared in the sanitized, comics-code censored books of the 50's and 60's. He brought a ton of energy and enthusiasm to the role and kept it alive and thiving when everybody else had written it off. Physically, he looked excellent (much more debonair than Keaton could ever have hoped to be). It wasn't his fault that the character was so lighthearted during that period.
I think his interpretation of the character is every bit as valid as his successors (and predecessors). The 1966 Batman movie is right next to the later editions in my DVD collection and I'd snap up the TV series in a second if it was ever released on DVD.
As for Catwoman, Julie Newmar is fine but Lee Meriwether's version from the 1966 movie is still my favorite. For a "G" rated movie, she really oozed sex appeal both in and out of the costume.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A85mTyh5g0s
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Agreed!Lee's so sexy she could practically burn a hole in the screen.That she was only Catwoman once,and yet still projects a powerful appeal to men of every age in this role is something she can always be proud of.This Miss America was a very hot number,indeed!
Perhaps you're right that the shininess of the hair threw me off.
Here is how I see them:
West- Great Bruce Wayne, terrific Batman. I don't care what anybody says, Adam West rocked!
Keaton- Very good Bruce Wayne. I think the tone of his performance was perfectly appropiate considering the reason he became Batman in the first place. I also disagree with WG in that I think Keaton was hansome enough. As Batman, I think that Keaton was brilliant. He was intimidating, enormously convincing and as for this discussion about his height, that has never been an issue for me. In fact, among my numerous criticisms of Craig have never been that he's too short. As long as Batman is taller than Tom Cruise, then I'm happy.
Kilmer- A good Bruce Wayne and a very good Batman. My problem however is that he didn't conform to my vision of Batman (as created by Adam West/Michael Keaton), and although good, Kilmer had the misfortune of coming after a man whom I consider to be an absolutely brilliant Batman. IMO he was the fourth best Batman overall.
Clooney- An alright Bruce Wayne and a pretty good Batman. Although I consider him to be the weakest of all the Batmans, I don't think he was that bad at all. In fact I would go as far as to describe him as underrated. The problem with Batman and Robin isn't IMO Clooney or Arnold (whom I think did a pretty good job considering) or any of the other actors. The problem is the script which must surely rank as one of the worst screenplays of all time. Clooney did okay but when he has to utter lines like "This is why Superman works alone." The script was dreadful and add to that the countless and pointless action scenes which were completely uninteresting (and this is from an action fan who usually loves 'countless and pointless action scenes'), I really don't think that Clooney deserves any blame. I think he did a fair job considering the obstacles.
Bale- Brilliant Bruce Wayne. Awesome Batman. IMO the best of the lot. I would however like to be able to actually see him fight in the next film.
Just to sumup, my best to worst:
1)Bale
2)West
3)Keaton
4)Kilmer*
5)Clooney
*Kilmer and Clooney are well below the top three.
Strictly speaking though, if a guy starts this because of the murder of people close to him, he should really try to be better than the people he's fighting by not killing them.
HEATH LEDGER TALKS JOKER
by Daniel Robert Epstein
I recently got the chance to talk with Heath Ledger at a press roundtable for the movie Candy. While on the hot seat I got the chance to grill Ledger about his upcoming role of The Joker in The Dark Knight.
Daniel Robert Epstein: Have you started to think about how you will play The Joker?
Heath Ledger: Yeah. I’ve been trying to delay my commitment to the preparation process on that because I’m trying to extend my holiday time. I definitely have an image in my head. I definitely have something up my sleeve. I want to be very sinister. It’s so early that I’m trying to be open at this point. I don’t want to be glued down to anyone.
DRE: Have you read many Batman comics?
HL: No and I think that’s kind of helping me a little bit. I was never really a fan of comic books or comic book movies. I never despised them but I was never one to read them. I never sought out the films but I would sit down and enjoy them. So because of that I really feel that I’m not carrying much pressure.
DRE: Have they given or asked you to read certain comics?
HL: The Killing Joke was the one that was handed to me. I think it’s going to be the beginning of The Joker. I guess that book explains a little bit of where he’s from but not too much. From what I’ve gathered, there isn’t a lot of information about The Joker and it’s left that way.
DRE: Is doing the role of The Joker scary after Jack Nicholson did it so well?
HL: I’m not going for the same thing he went for. That would be stupid. It is also two very different directors with different styles. Tim Burton did a more fantastical kind of thing and Chris Nolan is doing nitty gritty handheld realism. I love what [Jack] did and that is part of why I want to do that role. I remember seeing it and thinking how much fun it would be to put on that mask and attempt to do something along those lines. But it would obviously be murder if I tried to imitate what he did.
DRE: They’re talking about bringing in the co-creator of The Joker, Jerry Robinson, as a consultant on The Dark Knight. I don’t know if it would be more of an honorary title.
HL: It probably is [laughs].
DRE: Have you ever wanted to do superhero movies before?
HL: Not really. With the tights and undies and the boots, I would just feel stupid and silly. I couldn’t pull it off and there are other people who can perfectly. But I just couldn’t take myself seriously. I feel like this is an opportunity to be in one and not do that. I just gravitated towards the villain role because I felt I had something to give to it. I instantly had an idea.
DRE: Have you done screen tests with The Joker makeup yet?
HL: No, but I did do 3-D image scanning. I don’t know what they’re doing with it. This Bat truck turned up at my place in L.A.. It had these gadgets and cameras that zoom around you and up and down you. It instantly projects a three dimensional image of you. I’ve never used anything that high tech before in a film. I felt like I was in the truck from Knight Rider.
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=90305
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I'm sure you've heard the conflicts involved when filming Begins with Nolan and staff.
Nolan was called on quite a few things that would've carried the Batman mythos too far left or right. I can't remember some of the things he tried to impliment but the staff warned him that if he tried something too drastic to the character's personna, then the public would hang him for sure. It's been said that Bats would have been too down to earth and thespian...
As far as Ledger's involvement, he doesn't sound too enthusiastic about playing such a memorable villian; perhaps it's just me and he's really just playing it down but I'd like to hear abit more vigor in his interviews. IMO, he's already a questionable choice so I hope he does his homework properly.
This "more with the eyes" crud he's selling us means nothing to me; if the Joker doesn't have the signature laugh, I'm going to have a problem.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
It sounds vaguely like what Tim Burton went thru with Batman and Batman Returns; he was largely under a microscope with the first and when that was a hit they loosened his leash considerably on #2; we all know how that ended up. 8-) For everybody's sake, I hope Nolan doesn't fall into the same trap.
Sounds more like he wants to channel Alex from A Clockwork Orange than the 4 color comic. Again, I hope somebody has the sense to warn these people about the pitfalls of straying too far from the source material.
Here's a good place to start his research. Best laugh of all the J-Man actors. B-)
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I don't know about you but I've always rooted for Joker because there was always a side of him that was likable, I laughed at his hijinks no matter how crude they were especially BTAS.
This may be the first time ever that I actually hate him for what he does...although I came close in Batman Beyond: ROTJ.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
He's also shown as a very tragic character; but when he gets nasty (like shooting Barbara Gordon) it gets very ugly.
My fear with Nolan and Ledger is that they will focus on that ugliness without the pathos. If you turn Joker into a one dimensional character who does what he does for no reason, the character becomes much less interesting. Even Nicholson's version had some motivation, having been driven insane by his disfigurement.
Funny you mention that; I was watching BTAS last night and they played Mad Love, the episode where we discover how Harley Quinn met and hooked up with the Joker. That one goes heavy on the humor and cruelty; Joker throws Harley out a window at one point and when he pulls a knife on Batman, he's drawn in quite a scary way. It's a really great analysis of the characters; sadly, I doubt Nolan and Co. are even aware of it.
But I agree that for BB Part 2, the Joker will probably be pretty much irredeemable; I just hope they come up some suitably dark yet humorous agenda and MO for the Clown Prince of Crime and give his actions some context and give the viewers a reason for why he does what he does.
http://movies.ign.com/articles/749/749515p1.html
Hmmmmm....the jury's still out to how I feel he will approach The Joker; as long as he doesn't get too artsy with the role I guess he'll be okay.
I'm glad to read here that they're working on Bats costume. Fix the friggin' cowl while they're at it I hope...and perhaps the yellow oval on the chest? I know it's wishful thinking...
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Well Arthur, I thought it was a terrible book; basically a mish-mash of ideas already used in Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Comes. The art was atrocious and positively juvenile. The story was your typical Frank Miller "the system is corrupt / never trust authority figures / power to the people!" crap (sorry but he's very much a one trick pony these days in my book). It also didn't help matters that Batman was drawn as this old bald dude with a never-ending supply of bruises and blemishes. The only redeeming part of the story for me was that...
Here's a wikipedia page with more info (but it does have spoilers)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Dark_Knight_Strikes_Again
It's Frank Miller going through the motions for the check; sort of like he's doing with ALL STAR BATMAN now. Utter crud.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Why am I not surprised?
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Apart from Dark Knight Returns, Killing Joke, Year One, Death in the Family, (the ones I have) which are the best Batman graphic novels/collections?
That's what you get for not listening to the panel of experts. Seriously though, rating these books is a subjective thing. You never know; you may end up enjoying it.
A few that come immediately to mind:
The Long Halloween - 13 part maxi-series retelling Batman's early days, the hunt for a killer who kills on holidays, how Harvey Dent became Two-Face, and the gradual transfer of power in Gotham from the organized crime bosses to the supervillains.
Blind Justice - Written by Sam Hamm (who wrote the screenplay to the 1989 movie) and timed to coincide with Batman's 50th Anniversary; this one is more about Bruce Wayne and really gets us inside his head. The ending is both heartbreaking and shocking; even though it occurs within regular continuity.
Batman/Punisher: Lake of Fire & Punisher/Batman: Deadly Knights - Two of my favorite crossovers; think a buddy cop movie gone horribly wrong. The Punisher comes to Gotham City to look for Jigsaw; Joker also factors into story. The first book occurs while Jean Paul Valley (aka Azrael) was going around as Batman. The second (and better) book occurs after Bruce Wayne has resumed the mantle of the Dark Knight. Some really good writing in both stories and a pretty surprising ending to the second book as well.
Batman: Year Two: Fear The Reaper - Batman tangles with The Reaper, Gotham's first vigilante. Another good tale about Batman's formative years.
Batman/Judge Dredd: Judgment on Gotham - The first and best Batman/Dredd crossover. Batman somehow gets transported to Megacity 1 and runs afoul of Dredd as Judge Death finds his way to present day Gotham and hooks up with the Scarecrow. The final confrontation, in the middle of a rock concert no less, is a hoot; as is the panel where Scarecrow sprays Death with his fear toxin.
There's more - I'll have to rummage thru my collection.