My copy of The Dark Knight Strikes Again is on the way I ordered it before I noticed the feedback from the experts.
That's what you get for not listening to the panel of experts. Seriously though, rating these books is a subjective thing. You never know; you may end up enjoying it.
Apart from Dark Knight Returns, Killing Joke, Year One, Death in the Family, (the ones I have) which are the best Batman graphic novels/collections?
A few that come immediately to mind:
The Long Halloween - 13 part maxi-series retelling Batman's early days, the hunt for a killer who kills on holidays, how Harvey Dent became Two-Face, and the gradual transfer of power in Gotham from the organized crime bosses to the supervillains.
Blind Justice - Written by Sam Hamm (who wrote the screenplay to the 1989 movie) and timed to coincide with Batman's 50th Anniversary; this one is more about Bruce Wayne and really gets us inside his head. The ending is both heartbreaking and shocking; even though it occurs within regular continuity.
Batman/Punisher: Lake of Fire & Punisher/Batman: Deadly Knights - Two of my favorite crossovers; think a buddy cop movie gone horribly wrong. The Punisher comes to Gotham City to look for Jigsaw; Joker also factors into story. The first book occurs while Jean Paul Valley (aka Azrael) was going around as Batman. The second (and better) book occurs after Bruce Wayne has resumed the mantle of the Dark Knight. Some really good writing in both stories and a pretty surprising ending to the second book as well.
Batman: Year Two: Fear The Reaper - Batman tangles with The Reaper, Gotham's first vigilante. Another good tale about Batman's formative years.
Batman/Judge Dredd: Judgment on Gotham - The first and best Batman/Dredd crossover. Batman somehow gets transported to Megacity 1 and runs afoul of Dredd as Judge Death finds his way to present day Gotham and hooks up with the Scarecrow. The final confrontation, in the middle of a rock concert no less, is a hoot; as is the panel where Scarecrow sprays Death with his fear toxin.
There's more - I'll have to rummage thru my collection.
I'm writing these down for future reference. The crossovers always tempt me. When I was looking through amazon I noticed that the Batman v Predator crossover got very good reviews.
I'm writing these down for future reference. The crossovers always tempt me. When I was looking through amazon I noticed that the Batman v Predator crossover got very good reviews.
That was a pretty good read as well. I believe there was also a Batman vs. Alien as well; I never got that one but I recall it didn't receive a particularly good response.
Just as an FYI many of these stories have probably been collected into separate trade paperback editions. I find its easier to get the trade rather than the individual books that made up the story. A lot of these can also probably be gotten thru Amazon.com if you're so inclined.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
edited December 2006
I really enjoyed the Batman/Dredd crossover but graphic novels are either hit or miss with me. I recall reading a Batman/Daredevil crossover that was pretty good.
I prefer story arcs in the on-going magazines and other than Batman:HUSH, I strongly recommend the KNIGHTFALL arc. Azrael taking over for the Bat and wreaking mayhem on the Gotham underworld was simply fantastic reading. If you haven't already, I would say check out the trade. That remains one of my favorites of the hero.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I really enjoyed the Batman/Dredd crossover but graphic novels are either hit or miss with me. I recall reading a Batman/Daredevil crossover that was pretty good.
I prefer story arcs in the on-going magazines and other than Batman:HUSH, I strongly recommend the KNIGHTFALL arc. Azrael taking over for the Bat and wreaking mayhem on the Gotham underworld was simply fantastic reading. If you haven't already, I would say check out the trade. That remains one of my favorites of the hero.
Correct me if I'm wrong Rogue, but the books where Azrael assumes the Batman persona were collected under the Knightquest story arc. I enjoyed that run as well, particularly the story where the Joker decides to make a snuff film with Batman as the star. It harkened back to that old episode of the Avengers with Peter Wyngardge where some people kidnap Mrs. Peel and try to kill her while making a movie.
I'm a little ambivalent about the whole Knightfall story arc and the breaking of the Batman however. I understand why the writers wanted to do it, but I think they took Batman's physical crippling way too far and turned Bane into into an unstoppable Doomsday type. Denny O'Neil seems to have a fetish for spinal injuries: Bruce Wayne, Barbara Gordon, Carol Ferris in Green Lantern, and a few more that escape me. Then, having Wayne be magically healed by a psychic faith healer was very weak; especially in the light of the gritty realism of the books to that point.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Thanks, man, I get those subtitles mixed up all the time.
The thing about Azrael was that he didn't live by Batman's rules. I mean he pushed the envelope but he was nuts anyway.
Yeah the writing did hit a few snags with the healer and all(Detective Comics, right?) but Jean Paul Valley made it all worthwhile.
I wish that there was an action figure of that costume; I believe it started out looking one way and ended up with something slightly modified?
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I wish that there was an action figure of that costume; I believe it started out looking one way and ended up with something slightly modified?
Is that what you're looking for? I know DC released a bunch of Azbats action figures; you can probably find them at comics shops or the comic cons you go to (and there's always Ebay). I used to own some of them but I threw out all my plastic stuff years ago (I even had all of Toy Biz' Iron Man figures).
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
I wish that there was an action figure of that costume; I believe it started out looking one way and ended up with something slightly modified?
Is that what you're looking for? I know DC released a bunch of Azbats action figures; you can probably find them at comics shops or the comic cons you go to (and there's always Ebay). I used to own some of them but I threw out all my plastic stuff years ago (I even had all of Toy Biz' Iron Man figures).
Yes. Talk about intimidation. I always loved that look!
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I haven't kept up with the Bat books at all. What ever happened to Valley/Azrael? Is he still around? I know he had his own series for a while.
Oh, quite simply...sales.
By the time 2000 rolled around, sales were declining; readers perhaps grew tired of the nutjob/superhero formula and I think as said readers matured, they flocked to more unconventional titles - indies.
The stories in his own mag never really flourished like I thought that they should; I'm sure someone else will have their own reason for the book's demise but all in all it just got sorta stale.
Call me crazy but I'd pay admission to see this character on the big screen if done properly.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
That's pretty much what I thought. But was he killed off, written out, or is he still floating around somewhere?
EDIT: I did a little searching and according to Wikipedia, he was apparently killed off amid a hail of bullets in the last issue of his book ... but the body was never found. Typical open-ended comic book ending I guess. Here's the link (I love Wikipedia):
That's pretty much what I thought. But was he killed off, written out, or is he still floating around somewhere?
EDIT: I did a little searching and according to Wikipedia, he was apparently killed off amid a hail of bullets in the last issue of his book ... but the body was never found. Typical open-ended comic book ending I guess. Here's the link (I love Wikipedia):
December 13, 2006 - With pre-production under way on The Dark Knight, the rumor mill has been busy churning out buzz on all aspects of the Batman Begins sequel, including costuming.
Christian Bale's Batman will sport a modified and more "fabricky" outfit than the version he wore in Begins. The site expects the costume will still be rubber but sleeker than the version seen in the previous film.
The Joker's garb will be "less cartoony", according to BoF's source. "[Since this film's Joker is] much more dark, sinister, and threatening, his costume is very much going to reflect that."
BoF's insider added, "It's not going to be a suit that is tailored for him, but more something he acquired. I mean, what tailor would actually make a suit for The Joker?"
The Dark Knight begins filming in March of next year for a 2008 release.
I like the idea of a more fabricky version of the Bat-costume--in fact, I'd prefer to see the basic gray outfit--but I'm not sure what to make of this "acquired" Joker suit. Sheesh, the purple suit and green (or orange) shirt with the string tie were there from the J-Man's first appearance!
Oh. . .and as to Rachel McAdams being connected to this film--any possibility that she might be playing Harley Quinn? I'd love to see her in a Bat-movie!
Maybe the resemblance of the movie Joker to the comic book Joker will be in name only.It's possible Nolan's version of The Joker might still wear something in the zoot suit line but an outfit with more tasteful as opposed to the comic book's garish colors.In deference to Ledger,this Joker's face might be a big departure from the internationally famous warped and distended ghoul Jerry Robinson helped design in 1940.No Gwynplaine doppelganger whatsoever.Maybe this Joker will look normal but just smile a lot.He might even wear a Joker mask with the more familiar leering visage.
Who knows?Perhaps in the film the familiar Joker image might be attributed to the end result of a variety of police sketches drawn from incomplete descriptions taken from a collection of frightened and confused victims.Or from an editorial cartoon in one of Gotham's papers.It'll just be an artist's interpretation rather than a real representation of the villain's face.
Or then again,Nolan's/Ledger's Joker could look more like Malcolm McDowall did in A Clockwork Orange--the film Ledger enthusiastically talked about in one of his interviews when the topic of The Joker came up.If so,then that'd be a great shame.
There's really no good reason to rethink and/or revise The Joker's classic appearance.None at all. Hopefully they aren't going to do that out of some wrong-headed respect for Nicholson's version.That'd a pretty stupid excuse.The Joker's evil distended face with it's bizarre green white and red hues.The Joker's entire look is perfect, and perfection can't be improved upon.
However,if Nolan is planning to come up with a more "believable" looking Joker--who still LOOKS like The Joker, he need look no further than the Dean Motter written/Michael Lark illustrated graphic novel Nine Lives.It's a Batman story set in the "real" world, and it features a Joker who strongly resembles the classic Gwynplaine image and at the same time also looks like somebody who could really exist.This book has hard covers and everything, so Nolan shouldn't feel too embarassed by looking at it.
I think the tipoff as to how The Joker will appear in The Dark Knight was hinted at in the appearance of considerably subdued and less garish Joker on the card Batman sees at the end of Batman Begins.It's a pantomime artist as opposed to the evil clown and thus looks absolutely nothing like the famous version seen in the comic books--starting with The Joker's debut story in 1940.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Well said, W.G. Now I'm a little concerned about the character.
My main fear was that Nolan and Ledger would get artsy with it; I'll have faith that they won't blow this or the backlash of it could set the franchise back yet again.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Well said, W.G. Now I'm a little concerned about the character.
My main fear was that Nolan and Ledger would get artsy with it; I'll have faith that they won't blow this or the backlash of it could set the franchise back yet again.
Thanks Rogue.It's entirely possible that I'm overreacting based upon a rumor.But as a longtime comics fan who's seen so many characters "improved" for TV and movies,I'm very concerned about any unnecessary changes made to the appearance of The Joker.There's really no need for it,especially not since the level of movie makeups is of such a high standard today.I don't want to see a character called the Joker that intentionally bears no resemblance to the real character.("We couldn't recreate the face in the comics because it's so garish--and it's so overexposed.Besides,Jack did that already and we all agreed that someone as important as Heath should have his own distinct look.")
I don't want a homeless person or escaped mental patient wearing whatever's at hand as Batman's villain.The Joker isn't an ordinary character--he's as famous as Batman and is to the Caped Crusader what Professor Moriarty is to Sherlock Holmes,his archenemy and greatest adversary.
If it's really all about not embarassing themselves with silly comic book characters no one really takes seriously,then Nolan and Ledger are the wrong people to be involved with a Batman motion picture.The original images of these characters are wonderful and dramatic--in this instance, change for the sake of change is wrong--no matter what the excuse may be. Another bag over the head just isn't enough.If Joker's just going to wear rags call him Ragman--not The Joker.
The Spider-Man films have been big successes for a variety of reasons but the biggest being that those movies go out of their way to respect the source material.This includes replicating the looks of the characters with as much fidelity as possible.
We're getting a lot of contradictory information when it comes to B:TDK these days. I remember an interview with Nolan a few weeks back in which he clearly stated that he would be going back to the Joker's first two appearances in 1940 for his inspiration and that harkens a pretty specific look to me. The actors may have their own ideas about these characters, but ultimately it's the director's vision that prevails, and I think Nolan is smart enough not to turn it completely on its ear. Clearly, Nolan & Co. don't want their movie compared to the 1989 Batman; they want to bring their own take to Batman & Joker's first meeting and I have a feeling that's at the core of a lot of what we're reading.
Its best to take these stories with a big grain of salt until we start seeing some real pictures. I fell into that trap with CR; all the stories about dark and gritty and back to basics had me thinking I'd need antidepressants to get thru it; the final product was hardly as revisionist as all the stories would have led us to believe.
Speculation is fun but we don't need to get our blood pressure up over it. Actually, come to think of it, I'm already on high blood pressure meds. Oh well.
The Spider-Man films have been big successes for a variety of reasons but the biggest being that those movies go out of their way to respect the source material.This includes replicating the looks of the characters with as much fidelity as possible.
Well--don't forget that the first Spidey film received plenty of knocks from critics and fans for putting the Green Goblin in armor instead of outfitting him with an animated rubber mask, purple jerkin, and pointy-toed booties.
Speaking of changing the look of classic characters, I've never seen the Cartoon Network's The Batman series, and I've avoided it precisely because I loathe the way they've completely redesigned the great villains. Their Penguin makes Danny DeVito's look like a model of charm and good grooming; and the long-haired goth Riddler is beyond me. But worst of all is what they did to The Joker:
green tongue? (Too many apple lollipops, I guess.) Man, the Joker would have more dignity than to appear like this! Let's hope that this isn't what's on Nolan's mind, and that he does indeed base the Joker's look on his first appearance. Or perhaps he could do what Frank Miller did--depict the Joker as a kind of albino who likes to wear lipstick?
The Spider-Man films have been big successes for a variety of reasons but the biggest being that those movies go out of their way to respect the source material.This includes replicating the looks of the characters with as much fidelity as possible.
Well--don't forget that the first Spidey film received plenty of knocks from critics and fans for putting the Green Goblin in armor instead of outfitting him with an animated rubber mask, purple jerkin, and pointy-toed booties.
Speaking of changing the look of classic characters, I've never seen the Cartoon Network's The Batman series, and I've avoided it precisely because I loathe the way they've completely redesigned the great villains. Their Penguin makes Danny DeVito's look like a model of charm and good grooming; and the long-haired goth Riddler is beyond me. But worst of all is what they did to The Joker:
green tongue? (Too many apple lollipops, I guess.) Man, the Joker would have more dignity than to appear like this! Let's hope that this isn't what's on Nolan's mind, and that he does indeed base the Joker's look on his first appearance. Or perhaps he could do what Frank Miller did--depict the Joker as a kind of albino who likes to wear lipstick?
I avoid that series for exactly the same reasons you do.I don't want to see that carried over into live action.And hopefully Nolan won't do to The Joker what Miller unfortunately did.
I'd like to think that Jerry Robinson(Kane's frequent ghost artist),Bob Kane himself and Bill Finger--who wrote most of the classic stories--would have the greatest influence on Nolan.But I doubt they do...
I'd like to think that Jerry Robinson(Kane's frequent ghost artist),Bob Kane himself and Bill Finger--who wrote most of the classic stories--would have the greatest influence on Nolan.But I doubt they do...
Not necessarily, my good friend! It's been rumored that Robinson will be a consultant on The Dark Knight; though, according to this interview, Heath Ledger himself doesn't sound like Robinson would have too much influence:
Q:They’re talking about bringing in the co-creator of The Joker, Jerry Robinson, as a consultant on The Dark Knight. I don’t know if it would be more of an honorary title.
Ledger:It probably is (laughs).
But, in related news, there's this little gem from SuperheroHype!:
Ledger Says The Joker is Definitely American
Source: SLTToday.com December 16, 2006
In an interview with SLTToday.com, Heather Ledger says that The Joker will definitely be an American in The Dark Knight:
For his vocal chords, it was a short-lived respite. Soon he'll play the Joker in "The Dark Knight," the new Batman movie.
"The Joker," he says, "is definitely an American."
The Batman Begins follow-up is scheduled for a July 18, 2008 release.
Heather Ledger? Guess the Brokeback reputation is still following the poor guy!
Maye all that was meant by the comment that The Joker acquired his outfit is exactly that--and no more.He might've killed someone else and taken their suit,which he then makes a shade more garish by dying it purple.
The Joker of the movie probably won't look very much like the original character.Most audience members will want to recognize Ledger.Nolan can always say they are being "true to its "spirit" however--that's always a popular excuse.
As long as Batman resembles Batman and Gordon looks like Gordon why should anybody care about how The Joker looks?Every director likes to leave his mark on--I mean with--his film.
Nolan really should look at Nine Lives to see how artist Michael Lark makes The Joker look "real".All the filmmakers will need to convert Ledger into a relative lookalike for this version(which unmistakably references the Jerry Robinson original without being an exact copy) is a prosthetic nose,a minor chin prosthesis, and a wig.Nothing else--nothing artsy.Ledger would still be very recognizable.
The Joker of the movie probably won't look very much like the original character.Most audience members will want to recognize Ledger.Nolan can always say they are being "true to its "spirit" however--that's always a popular excuse.
As long as Batman resembles Batman and Gordon looks like Gordon why should anybody care about how The Joker looks?Every director likes to leave his mark on--I mean with--his film.
Y'know, WG, maybe you're being a mite too cynical here. Your post reminded me that Gary Oldman and Christopher Nolan seemed to take pains to make Gordon look like his comic book counterpart. This suggests that Nolan might really care about how the denizens of Gotham are presented, and so he might give us a Joker fans will recognize and appreciate.
To be honest, I'm not sure Nolan could go much further afield than the Burton/Nicholson version of the J-Man. I know that a lot of fans adore this Joker, but to me he was more Jack Nicholson in Shining mode than he was Batman's arch-nemesis. We saw him in an extended sequence as "Jack Napier" (note the similarity of names), we learned more about the Joker's origins than Batman's, and there were a few scenes where he put on flesh-colored makeup, so you were basically seeing Jack Nicholson with a plastic smile glued to his face. And about that permanent grin. . .not kosher. The Joker should have an expressive face, not one that never changes expression.
Ah, well, who knows what we'll get? A year ago, weren't a lot of us saying, "Casino Royale is going to suck big time!"?
The Joker of the movie probably won't look very much like the original character.Most audience members will want to recognize Ledger.Nolan can always say they are being "true to its "spirit" however--that's always a popular excuse.
As long as Batman resembles Batman and Gordon looks like Gordon why should anybody care about how The Joker looks?Every director likes to leave his mark on--I mean with--his film.
Y'know, WG, maybe you're being a mite too cynical here. Your post reminded me that Gary Oldman and Christopher Nolan seemed to take pains to make Gordon look like his comic book counterpart. This suggests that Nolan might really care about how the denizens of Gotham are presented, and so he might give us a Joker fans will recognize and appreciate.
To be honest, I'm not sure Nolan could go much further afield than the Burton/Nicholson version of the J-Man. I know that a lot of fans adore this Joker, but to me he was more Jack Nicholson in Shining mode than he was Batman's arch-nemesis. We saw him in an extended sequence as "Jack Napier" (note the similarity of names), we learned more about the Joker's origins than Batman's, and there were a few scenes where he put on flesh-colored makeup, so you were basically seeing Jack Nicholson with a plastic smile glued to his face. And about that permanent grin. . .not kosher. The Joker should have an expressive face, not one that never changes expression.
Ah, well, who knows what we'll get? A year ago, weren't a lot of us saying, "Casino Royale is going to suck big time!"?
You got it,my friend.I'm a cynic.I'm tough to please.
But I always hope for the best.And as I admitted on an earlier post,I may simply be overreacting-I've done that before.
Still,when it comes to films about the comics characters I like, I've generally been let down.I'm always cautiously optomistic but fanboy that I am,I've been burned plenty of times by filmmakers who didn't understand or respect their material--and were sometimes actually openly dismissive of it.
In general terms most of the movies made about comics characters usually aren't very good and that's often due to the writing and the casting.For a long time there really weren't very many filmmakers who cared enough to try and be as faithful as they could be to a comic book or comic strip character.In fairness,it looks like over the past few years--and in some important cases-- this attitude's been changed.
At any rate,the more slipshod adaptations were understandable,I suppose:it's probably quite a challenge to get the right look on the screen.But it's probably no more so than mounting a period film or a large musical.And for Batman the story has to be a sound one with a good mix of suspense mystery and action.Just getting the costumes right isn't enough.Batman's a detective,after all--let's see him do some detecting.That only recently happened --and in Nolan's film.
I was very pleased to finally see an actor who actually resembles Bruce Wayne play Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins.And the casting of Gary Oldman--who looks exactly like Jim Gordon as rendered by David Mazzuchelli in Batman:Year One was a masterstroke.Nolan got those right.
And I'm all for a Joker with expressive features,but at the same time I'd also like him to resemble the leering psychopath of the comics,too.That's not hoping for too much.The Joker shouldn't have a frozen expression. I think it's possible to bring this look to the screen in live action without much (if any)difficulty or a significant departure from the character's established appearance.
Incidentally,longtime Batman fan that I am(since age 6),I find very little to like about the Tim Burton Batman movie.I realize that some people absolutely love it, but I've always thought that it was fatally flawed due to the casting of Keaton as Bruce Wayne(it's like casting Don Knotts to play Superman) and a much too old and incredibly hammy Nicholson as The Joker.The music's excellent,however.
I think the finest dramatic version of the Batman characters remains the Paul Dini/Bruce Timm Batman:the Animated Series.Nothing's really topped this.
We all know that movies based upon material taken from another medium(comics,novels,etc.) are always creative compromises.Maybe I've just seen too many excessively compromised projects(often related to comics) to get as excited over this film as I ought to be.But even if the film's villain turns out to be completely redesigned,I hope The Dark Knight will at least be the equal of Batman Begins--which is the best live-action Batman movie I've ever seen.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Amid all this negative speculation of how the Joker may or may not be rendered, I thought that I might celebrate some of the artists that have given the Dark Knight such successful longevity:
NEAL ADAMS
IMO, he sets the bar on how I envision Batman to look if he were in the real world. For those in the comic know, Adams talents aren't just staggering but timeless. Not many artists at the time had such a grasp illustrating comics with such realism...
JIM APARO
As a kid, I thought that his approach was just riveting on titles like Brave & The Bold and Detective Comics in the 70s. I was very sad to learn of his passing a year or so ago...
I had this comic as a kid and my mom tossed it; I'll find it again I'm sure.
CARMINE INFANTINO
Although know for his other works for Marvel and DC, Infantino's look for Bats fit the 60s like a glove; it was inovative.
MARSHALL ROGERS
IMO, he had an Adams' influence to his style but made his own signature look. His work on Detective Comics in the 70s was just awesome. He also pencilled a very cool character named Manhunter; some of you may remember him...
IRV NOVICK
Awesome artist of 70s Batman and deserves his spot on my list. RIP...
JIM LEE
Here's a more modern artist that jacked the look of the Bat up a notch; of course the HUSH series had a hand in making his Batman iconic. I can't say the same when he took over the reins for Superman. Terrible storylines...
Back to topic, I like W.G. am hard to please...especially when it comes to messing up The Bat.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
A question for the experts: I'm assuming that the nicknames 'The Dark Knight' and 'The Caped Crusader' come from the comic books. How exactly did they come about?
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
A question for the experts: I'm assuming that the nicknames 'The Dark Knight' and 'The Caped Crusader' comes from the comic books. How exactly did they come about?
Sorry if you felt slighted, Dan, let me grab you a hanky.
Seriously, I wouldn't know; perhaps writers along the way just wrote it in as a nickname to Batman's crusade and it went from there. W.G. or Tony may know more in depth details as to why; I personally never thought twice about the side-titles...
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Seriously, I wouldn't know; perhaps writers along the way just wrote it in as a nickname to Batman's crusade and it went from there. W.G. or Tony may know more in depth details as to why; I personally never thought twice about the side-titles...
Thanks.
*Not really actually. I'm not egotistical enough to imagine that all my posts will be responded to.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
A question for the experts: I'm assuming that the nicknames 'The Dark Knight' and 'The Caped Crusader' comes from the comic books. How exactly did they come about?
Sorry if you felt slighted, Dan, let me grab you a hanky.
Seriously, I wouldn't know; perhaps writers along the way just wrote it in as a nickname to Batman's crusade and it went from there. W.G. or Tony may know more in depth details as to why; I personally never thought twice about the side-titles...
As I recall,Batman was called "The Dark Knight" as far back as 1939--the year he first appeared in print."The Caped Crusader" nickname appeared not long afterwards.Batman's also been called
"The Darknight Detective" and "The Gotham Goliath".
All of these,of course,are inspired by Superman's nicknames:"The Man of Steel","The Man Of Tomorrow" "The Action Ace" and "The Metropolis Marvel".
These nicknames in turn were derived from those of the pulp heroes of the early 1930s who served as significant inspirations for the later comic book heroes.For example,Doc Savage was called "The Man of Bronze" and "The Man of Tomorrow".He was even refered to as a "superman"--and he had a "Fortress of Solitude" hidden in the Arctic several years before Superman was created.
All of the various nicknames in both the pulps and comics probably came about in an effort by the writers to keep from simply repeating the hero's name continually.A little variety never hurts and it prevents monotony.Along with trying to maintain an element of excitement in the stories the nicknames might also have been direct or even indirectly inspired by the nicknames announcers and reporters gave famous sports stars and other celebrities.For example,Babe Ruth was "The Sultan of Swat",Charles Lindbergh was "The Lone Eagle" and Clark Gable was "The King".
At any rate,"The Caped Crusader" seems to have been used most often for Batman with "The Dark Knight" and "Darknight Detective" reemerging in the stories Steve Engelhart wrote and Marshall Rogers drew for an acclaimed run in Detective Comics in the late 1970s-early 80s.Frank Miller named his out of DC continuity story about Batman, "The Dark Knight".It's sequel is called "The Dark Knight Returns".
Rogue's posted images by several of my favorite Batman artists already but I hope he'll add some pictures by Dick Sprang and Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez to his gallery,along with Andy Kubert's rendition of Batman in the current Batman comic book.
Sprang drew Batman throughout the 1950s into the early 60s in a smooth and cartoony style which at the same time was also surprisingly illustrative, considering it's intentional limitations.
Garcia-Lopez is--in my opinion,and apparently DC's as well--the most gifted artist in their employ.He is the artist DC chose to provide the illustrations for their style guide(including drawings of all of DC's important characters) --the principal research tool available for all of DC's artists.He draws everything superbly --including an exceptionally impressive and graceful-looking Batman.
Kubert's doing a fantastic job on Batman, giving him a dramatic and graceful look, with a dynamic energy comparable to Garcia-Lopez at his best.
And let's not ignore Alan Davis,either.His work on Batman during the 1980s was excellent.The heroic physiques (and shapely female forms) he rendered at times resembled an admixture of Aparo, Adams and Garcia-Lopez, but always with a distinctive style all his own--most obvious when it came to the slight exaggeration he brought to all of his character's faces.:)
Comments
I'm writing these down for future reference. The crossovers always tempt me. When I was looking through amazon I noticed that the Batman v Predator
That was a pretty good read as well. I believe there was also a Batman vs. Alien as well; I never got that one but I recall it didn't receive a particularly good response.
Just as an FYI many of these stories have probably been collected into separate trade paperback editions. I find its easier to get the trade rather than the individual books that made up the story. A lot of these can also probably be gotten thru Amazon.com if you're so inclined.
I prefer story arcs in the on-going magazines and other than Batman:HUSH, I strongly recommend the KNIGHTFALL arc. Azrael taking over for the Bat and wreaking mayhem on the Gotham underworld was simply fantastic reading. If you haven't already, I would say check out the trade. That remains one of my favorites of the hero.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Correct me if I'm wrong Rogue, but the books where Azrael assumes the Batman persona were collected under the Knightquest story arc. I enjoyed that run as well, particularly the story where the Joker decides to make a snuff film with Batman as the star. It harkened back to that old episode of the Avengers with Peter Wyngardge where some people kidnap Mrs. Peel and try to kill her while making a movie.
I'm a little ambivalent about the whole Knightfall story arc and the breaking of the Batman however. I understand why the writers wanted to do it, but I think they took Batman's physical crippling way too far and turned Bane into into an unstoppable Doomsday type. Denny O'Neil seems to have a fetish for spinal injuries: Bruce Wayne, Barbara Gordon, Carol Ferris in Green Lantern, and a few more that escape me. Then, having Wayne be magically healed by a psychic faith healer was very weak; especially in the light of the gritty realism of the books to that point.
The thing about Azrael was that he didn't live by Batman's rules. I mean he pushed the envelope but he was nuts anyway.
Yeah the writing did hit a few snags with the healer and all(Detective Comics, right?) but Jean Paul Valley made it all worthwhile.
I wish that there was an action figure of that costume; I believe it started out looking one way and ended up with something slightly modified?
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Is that what you're looking for? I know DC released a bunch of Azbats action figures; you can probably find them at comics shops or the comic cons you go to (and there's always Ebay). I used to own some of them but I threw out all my plastic stuff years ago (I even had all of Toy Biz' Iron Man figures).
Yes. Talk about intimidation. I always loved that look!
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Oh, quite simply...sales.
By the time 2000 rolled around, sales were declining; readers perhaps grew tired of the nutjob/superhero formula and I think as said readers matured, they flocked to more unconventional titles - indies.
The stories in his own mag never really flourished like I thought that they should; I'm sure someone else will have their own reason for the book's demise but all in all it just got sorta stale.
Call me crazy but I'd pay admission to see this character on the big screen if done properly.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
EDIT: I did a little searching and according to Wikipedia, he was apparently killed off amid a hail of bullets in the last issue of his book ... but the body was never found. Typical open-ended comic book ending I guess. Here's the link (I love Wikipedia):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azrael_%28comics%29
Didn't want to really ruin it for you in case you decided to pick up a trade or two of the character. In this case, Wikipedia spilled the beans.
His regular costume looks like a stroke of genius to me.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Costuming The Dark Knight:
The skinny on Batman and Joker's new duds.
by Stax
December 13, 2006 - With pre-production under way on The Dark Knight, the rumor mill has been busy churning out buzz on all aspects of the Batman Begins sequel, including costuming.
Christian Bale's Batman will sport a modified and more "fabricky" outfit than the version he wore in Begins. The site expects the costume will still be rubber but sleeker than the version seen in the previous film.
The Joker's garb will be "less cartoony", according to BoF's source. "[Since this film's Joker is] much more dark, sinister, and threatening, his costume is very much going to reflect that."
BoF's insider added, "It's not going to be a suit that is tailored for him, but more something he acquired. I mean, what tailor would actually make a suit for The Joker?"
The Dark Knight begins filming in March of next year for a 2008 release.
I like the idea of a more fabricky version of the Bat-costume--in fact, I'd prefer to see the basic gray outfit--but I'm not sure what to make of this "acquired" Joker suit. Sheesh, the purple suit and green (or orange) shirt with the string tie were there from the J-Man's first appearance!
Oh. . .and as to Rachel McAdams being connected to this film--any possibility that she might be playing Harley Quinn? I'd love to see her in a Bat-movie!
Who knows?Perhaps in the film the familiar Joker image might be attributed to the end result of a variety of police sketches drawn from incomplete descriptions taken from a collection of frightened and confused victims.Or from an editorial cartoon in one of Gotham's papers.It'll just be an artist's interpretation rather than a real representation of the villain's face.
Or then again,Nolan's/Ledger's Joker could look more like Malcolm McDowall did in A Clockwork Orange--the film Ledger enthusiastically talked about in one of his interviews when the topic of The Joker came up.If so,then that'd be a great shame.
There's really no good reason to rethink and/or revise The Joker's classic appearance.None at all. Hopefully they aren't going to do that out of some wrong-headed respect for Nicholson's version.That'd a pretty stupid excuse.The Joker's evil distended face with it's bizarre green white and red hues.The Joker's entire look is perfect, and perfection can't be improved upon.
However,if Nolan is planning to come up with a more "believable" looking Joker--who still LOOKS like The Joker, he need look no further than the Dean Motter written/Michael Lark illustrated graphic novel Nine Lives.It's a Batman story set in the "real" world, and it features a Joker who strongly resembles the classic Gwynplaine image and at the same time also looks like somebody who could really exist.This book has hard covers and everything, so Nolan shouldn't feel too embarassed by looking at it.
I think the tipoff as to how The Joker will appear in The Dark Knight was hinted at in the appearance of considerably subdued and less garish Joker on the card Batman sees at the end of Batman Begins.It's a pantomime artist as opposed to the evil clown and thus looks absolutely nothing like the famous version seen in the comic books--starting with The Joker's debut story in 1940.
My main fear was that Nolan and Ledger would get artsy with it; I'll have faith that they won't blow this or the backlash of it could set the franchise back yet again.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Thanks Rogue.It's entirely possible that I'm overreacting based upon a rumor.But as a longtime comics fan who's seen so many characters "improved" for TV and movies,I'm very concerned about any unnecessary changes made to the appearance of The Joker.There's really no need for it,especially not since the level of movie makeups is of such a high standard today.I don't want to see a character called the Joker that intentionally bears no resemblance to the real character.("We couldn't recreate the face in the comics because it's so garish--and it's so overexposed.Besides,Jack did that already and we all agreed that someone as important as Heath should have his own distinct look.")
I don't want a homeless person or escaped mental patient wearing whatever's at hand as Batman's villain.The Joker isn't an ordinary character--he's as famous as Batman and is to the Caped Crusader what Professor Moriarty is to Sherlock Holmes,his archenemy and greatest adversary.
If it's really all about not embarassing themselves with silly comic book characters no one really takes seriously,then Nolan and Ledger are the wrong people to be involved with a Batman motion picture.The original images of these characters are wonderful and dramatic--in this instance, change for the sake of change is wrong--no matter what the excuse may be. Another bag over the head just isn't enough.If Joker's just going to wear rags call him Ragman--not The Joker.
The Spider-Man films have been big successes for a variety of reasons but the biggest being that those movies go out of their way to respect the source material.This includes replicating the looks of the characters with as much fidelity as possible.
Its best to take these stories with a big grain of salt until we start seeing some real pictures. I fell into that trap with CR; all the stories about dark and gritty and back to basics had me thinking I'd need antidepressants to get thru it; the final product was hardly as revisionist as all the stories would have led us to believe.
Speculation is fun but we don't need to get our blood pressure up over it. Actually, come to think of it, I'm already on high blood pressure meds. Oh well.
Well--don't forget that the first Spidey film received plenty of knocks from critics and fans for putting the Green Goblin in armor instead of outfitting him with an animated rubber mask, purple jerkin, and pointy-toed booties.
Speaking of changing the look of classic characters, I've never seen the Cartoon Network's The Batman series, and I've avoided it precisely because I loathe the way they've completely redesigned the great villains. Their Penguin makes Danny DeVito's look like a model of charm and good grooming; and the long-haired goth Riddler is beyond me. But worst of all is what they did to The Joker:
I avoid that series for exactly the same reasons you do.I don't want to see that carried over into live action.And hopefully Nolan won't do to The Joker what Miller unfortunately did.
I'd like to think that Jerry Robinson(Kane's frequent ghost artist),Bob Kane himself and Bill Finger--who wrote most of the classic stories--would have the greatest influence on Nolan.But I doubt they do...
Not necessarily, my good friend! It's been rumored that Robinson will be a consultant on The Dark Knight; though, according to this interview, Heath Ledger himself doesn't sound like Robinson would have too much influence:
Q: They’re talking about bringing in the co-creator of The Joker, Jerry Robinson, as a consultant on The Dark Knight. I don’t know if it would be more of an honorary title.
Ledger: It probably is (laughs).
But, in related news, there's this little gem from SuperheroHype!:
Ledger Says The Joker is Definitely American
Source: SLTToday.com December 16, 2006
In an interview with SLTToday.com, Heather Ledger says that The Joker will definitely be an American in The Dark Knight:
For his vocal chords, it was a short-lived respite. Soon he'll play the Joker in "The Dark Knight," the new Batman movie.
"The Joker," he says, "is definitely an American."
The Batman Begins follow-up is scheduled for a July 18, 2008 release.
Heather Ledger? Guess the Brokeback reputation is still following the poor guy!
The Joker of the movie probably won't look very much like the original character.Most audience members will want to recognize Ledger.Nolan can always say they are being "true to its "spirit" however--that's always a popular excuse.
As long as Batman resembles Batman and Gordon looks like Gordon why should anybody care about how The Joker looks?Every director likes to leave his mark on--I mean with--his film.
Nolan really should look at Nine Lives to see how artist Michael Lark makes The Joker look "real".All the filmmakers will need to convert Ledger into a relative lookalike for this version(which unmistakably references the Jerry Robinson original without being an exact copy) is a prosthetic nose,a minor chin prosthesis, and a wig.Nothing else--nothing artsy.Ledger would still be very recognizable.
And he'd look like The Joker...
Y'know, WG, maybe you're being a mite too cynical here. Your post reminded me that Gary Oldman and Christopher Nolan seemed to take pains to make Gordon look like his comic book counterpart. This suggests that Nolan might really care about how the denizens of Gotham are presented, and so he might give us a Joker fans will recognize and appreciate.
To be honest, I'm not sure Nolan could go much further afield than the Burton/Nicholson version of the J-Man. I know that a lot of fans adore this Joker, but to me he was more Jack Nicholson in Shining mode than he was Batman's arch-nemesis. We saw him in an extended sequence as "Jack Napier" (note the similarity of names), we learned more about the Joker's origins than Batman's, and there were a few scenes where he put on flesh-colored makeup, so you were basically seeing Jack Nicholson with a plastic smile glued to his face. And about that permanent grin. . .not kosher. The Joker should have an expressive face, not one that never changes expression.
Ah, well, who knows what we'll get? A year ago, weren't a lot of us saying, "Casino Royale is going to suck big time!"?
You got it,my friend.I'm a cynic.I'm tough to please.
But I always hope for the best.And as I admitted on an earlier post,I may simply be overreacting-I've done that before.
Still,when it comes to films about the comics characters I like, I've generally been let down.I'm always cautiously optomistic but fanboy that I am,I've been burned plenty of times by filmmakers who didn't understand or respect their material--and were sometimes actually openly dismissive of it.
In general terms most of the movies made about comics characters usually aren't very good and that's often due to the writing and the casting.For a long time there really weren't very many filmmakers who cared enough to try and be as faithful as they could be to a comic book or comic strip character.In fairness,it looks like over the past few years--and in some important cases-- this attitude's been changed.
At any rate,the more slipshod adaptations were understandable,I suppose:it's probably quite a challenge to get the right look on the screen.But it's probably no more so than mounting a period film or a large musical.And for Batman the story has to be a sound one with a good mix of suspense mystery and action.Just getting the costumes right isn't enough.Batman's a detective,after all--let's see him do some detecting.That only recently happened --and in Nolan's film.
I was very pleased to finally see an actor who actually resembles Bruce Wayne play Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins.And the casting of Gary Oldman--who looks exactly like Jim Gordon as rendered by David Mazzuchelli in Batman:Year One was a masterstroke.Nolan got those right.
And I'm all for a Joker with expressive features,but at the same time I'd also like him to resemble the leering psychopath of the comics,too.That's not hoping for too much.The Joker shouldn't have a frozen expression. I think it's possible to bring this look to the screen in live action without much (if any)difficulty or a significant departure from the character's established appearance.
Incidentally,longtime Batman fan that I am(since age 6),I find very little to like about the Tim Burton Batman movie.I realize that some people absolutely love it, but I've always thought that it was fatally flawed due to the casting of Keaton as Bruce Wayne(it's like casting Don Knotts to play Superman) and a much too old and incredibly hammy Nicholson as The Joker.The music's excellent,however.
I think the finest dramatic version of the Batman characters remains the Paul Dini/Bruce Timm Batman:the Animated Series.Nothing's really topped this.
We all know that movies based upon material taken from another medium(comics,novels,etc.) are always creative compromises.Maybe I've just seen too many excessively compromised projects(often related to comics) to get as excited over this film as I ought to be.But even if the film's villain turns out to be completely redesigned,I hope The Dark Knight will at least be the equal of Batman Begins--which is the best live-action Batman movie I've ever seen.
NEAL ADAMS
IMO, he sets the bar on how I envision Batman to look if he were in the real world. For those in the comic know, Adams talents aren't just staggering but timeless. Not many artists at the time had such a grasp illustrating comics with such realism...
JIM APARO
As a kid, I thought that his approach was just riveting on titles like Brave & The Bold and Detective Comics in the 70s. I was very sad to learn of his passing a year or so ago...
I had this comic as a kid and my mom tossed it; I'll find it again I'm sure.
CARMINE INFANTINO
Although know for his other works for Marvel and DC, Infantino's look for Bats fit the 60s like a glove; it was inovative.
MARSHALL ROGERS
IMO, he had an Adams' influence to his style but made his own signature look. His work on Detective Comics in the 70s was just awesome. He also pencilled a very cool character named Manhunter; some of you may remember him...
IRV NOVICK
Awesome artist of 70s Batman and deserves his spot on my list. RIP...
JIM LEE
Here's a more modern artist that jacked the look of the Bat up a notch; of course the HUSH series had a hand in making his Batman iconic. I can't say the same when he took over the reins for Superman. Terrible storylines...
Back to topic, I like W.G. am hard to please...especially when it comes to messing up The Bat.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Sorry if you felt slighted, Dan, let me grab you a hanky.
Seriously, I wouldn't know; perhaps writers along the way just wrote it in as a nickname to Batman's crusade and it went from there. W.G. or Tony may know more in depth details as to why; I personally never thought twice about the side-titles...
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Thanks.
*Not really actually. I'm not egotistical enough to imagine that all my posts will be responded to.
*pats Dan on back* Of course we are.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
As I recall,Batman was called "The Dark Knight" as far back as 1939--the year he first appeared in print."The Caped Crusader" nickname appeared not long afterwards.Batman's also been called
"The Darknight Detective" and "The Gotham Goliath".
All of these,of course,are inspired by Superman's nicknames:"The Man of Steel","The Man Of Tomorrow" "The Action Ace" and "The Metropolis Marvel".
These nicknames in turn were derived from those of the pulp heroes of the early 1930s who served as significant inspirations for the later comic book heroes.For example,Doc Savage was called "The Man of Bronze" and "The Man of Tomorrow".He was even refered to as a "superman"--and he had a "Fortress of Solitude" hidden in the Arctic several years before Superman was created.
All of the various nicknames in both the pulps and comics probably came about in an effort by the writers to keep from simply repeating the hero's name continually.A little variety never hurts and it prevents monotony.Along with trying to maintain an element of excitement in the stories the nicknames might also have been direct or even indirectly inspired by the nicknames announcers and reporters gave famous sports stars and other celebrities.For example,Babe Ruth was "The Sultan of Swat",Charles Lindbergh was "The Lone Eagle" and Clark Gable was "The King".
At any rate,"The Caped Crusader" seems to have been used most often for Batman with "The Dark Knight" and "Darknight Detective" reemerging in the stories Steve Engelhart wrote and Marshall Rogers drew for an acclaimed run in Detective Comics in the late 1970s-early 80s.Frank Miller named his out of DC continuity story about Batman, "The Dark Knight".It's sequel is called "The Dark Knight Returns".
Rogue's posted images by several of my favorite Batman artists already but I hope he'll add some pictures by Dick Sprang and Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez to his gallery,along with Andy Kubert's rendition of Batman in the current Batman comic book.
Sprang drew Batman throughout the 1950s into the early 60s in a smooth and cartoony style which at the same time was also surprisingly illustrative, considering it's intentional limitations.
Garcia-Lopez is--in my opinion,and apparently DC's as well--the most gifted artist in their employ.He is the artist DC chose to provide the illustrations for their style guide(including drawings of all of DC's important characters) --the principal research tool available for all of DC's artists.He draws everything superbly --including an exceptionally impressive and graceful-looking Batman.
Kubert's doing a fantastic job on Batman, giving him a dramatic and graceful look, with a dynamic energy comparable to Garcia-Lopez at his best.
And let's not ignore Alan Davis,either.His work on Batman during the 1980s was excellent.The heroic physiques (and shapely female forms) he rendered at times resembled an admixture of Aparo, Adams and Garcia-Lopez, but always with a distinctive style all his own--most obvious when it came to the slight exaggeration he brought to all of his character's faces.:)