I'm hoping they really minimize The Joker's laughter and that when he does laugh the sound is absolutely chilling.The original version of The Joker was not a nice guy--he was a brooding psychopathic contract killer.And he didn't always smile.Bad to the bone and proud of it--not an overly-hyper standup comedian.In fact,many of the things Joker found anusing wouldn't qualify as humorous to a normal person.More Freddy Kruger at his nastiest or Hannibal Lecter than what we saw with Cesar Romero(who,in all fairness, played the more simplified and nonthreatening Clown Prince of Crime DC was publishing during the 50s and 60s).
The problem is that if you cut down on the laughter and smiling too much, he ceases to be the Joker, or at least The Joker that non-comic book fans such as myself have grown up with.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
I'd much prefer it if they didn't overpack the Nolan Batmans with villains. One good villain per picture is sufficient, in my mind.
And they've got to fix what Burton did to the Penguin, IMHO. He should be more of a gangland-style crime figure---short and fat, with a tuxedo...a cigarette in a long-stemmed holder, and perhaps a bit of a nose. But let's not make him 'Lord of the Sewers' again
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
I'm hoping they really minimize The Joker's laughter and that when he does laugh the sound is absolutely chilling.The original version of The Joker was not a nice guy--he was a brooding psychopathic contract killer.And he didn't always smile.Bad to the bone and proud of it--not an overly-hyper standup comedian.In fact,many of the things Joker found anusing wouldn't qualify as humorous to a normal person.More Freddy Kruger at his nastiest or Hannibal Lecter than what we saw with Cesar Romero(who,in all fairness, played the more simplified and nonthreatening Clown Prince of Crime DC was publishing during the 50s and 60s).
The problem is that if you cut down on the laughter and smiling too much, he ceases to be the Joker, or at least The Joker that non-comic book fans such as myself have grown up with.
Respectfully both you guys make excellent points. The challenge will be if Nolan can provide a happy medium.
I mean I strongly admired Romero's version, in all of its kookiness, as well as Nicholson's more vicious approach albeit with a "LOOK AT ME" type flavor.
One of the better Joker stories, and I might be called on this proclamation, was THE KILLING JOKE written by Alan Moore. He weaved a tale that had me on a rollercoaster of emotion as far as the villian was concerned. It was smartly written and the J-man wasn't a giggling idiot in this story.
You try and ask an actor to make such an iconic bad guy into a terminally glum mobster, with no referable ties to past incarnations, and you're asking for trouble...
So in a round-about way, you're both correct...I'm just babbling because I'm excited for this.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
I guess you guys think this version is a bit dated and cartoony? Sort of resembles the Jack version?
Maybe it's me but I've always loved his look here; Neal Adams (my idol) drawing it didn't hurt either...
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I'm hoping they really minimize The Joker's laughter and that when he does laugh the sound is absolutely chilling.The original version of The Joker was not a nice guy--he was a brooding psychopathic contract killer.And he didn't always smile.Bad to the bone and proud of it--not an overly-hyper standup comedian.In fact,many of the things Joker found anusing wouldn't qualify as humorous to a normal person.More Freddy Kruger at his nastiest or Hannibal Lecter than what we saw with Cesar Romero(who,in all fairness, played the more simplified and nonthreatening Clown Prince of Crime DC was publishing during the 50s and 60s).
The problem is that if you cut down on the laughter and smiling too much, he ceases to be the Joker, or at least The Joker that non-comic book fans such as myself have grown up with.
Respectfully both you guys make excellent points. The challenge will be if Nolan can provide a happy medium.
I mean I strongly admired Romero's version, in all of its kookiness, as well as Nicholson's more vicious approach albeit with a "LOOK AT ME" type flavor.
One of the better Joker stories, and I might be called on this proclamation, was THE KILLING JOKE written by Alan Moore. He weaved a tale that had me on a rollercoaster of emotion as far as the villian was concerned. It was smartly written and the J-man wasn't a giggling idiot in this story.
You try and ask an actor to make such an iconic bad guy into a terminally glum mobster, with no referable ties to past incarnations, and you're asking for trouble...
So in a round-about way, you're both correct...I'm just babbling because I'm excited for this.
I'm not asking for the Joker to have a perpetually grim demeanor but I think he should be frightening and more impressive than Jack Nicholson's impression of himself.I want a frightening character as opposed to a camped-up and giggling prankster.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
I'm not asking for the Joker to have a perpetually grim demeanor but I think he should be frightening and more impressive than Jack Nicholson's impression of himself.I want a frightening character as opposed to a camped-up and giggling prankster.
For the sake of debate, with your vivid imagination, give me a brief scenario of what you expect from the new clown. Something as callous as what he did to Barbara Gordon? Pushing a kid off of the roof of a building and laughing at the splat the victim makes on the concrete below? The fierceness of his appearance? I may be on the same page as you; it just may not be translating properly in my words. I'd like to think that I was in the neighborhood...
I have and have read The Killing Joke but aside from Brian Bolland's incredible artwork,the story doesn't impress me-- but then I don't think Batman should find what happens to The Joker's victim in this story at all laughable.
Sorry, W.G. that you weren't as impressed with it as I was. We all get different things from the same pot sometimes. Bolland is awesome BTW...
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I'm not asking for the Joker to have a perpetually grim demeanor but I think he should be frightening and more impressive than Jack Nicholson's impression of himself.I want a frightening character as opposed to a camped-up and giggling prankster.
For the sake of debate, with your vivid imagination, give me a brief scenario of what you expect from the new clown. Something as callous as what he did to Barbara Gordon? Pushing a kid off of the roof of a building and laughing at the splat the victim makes on the concrete below? The fierceness of his appearance? I may be on the same page as you; it just may not be translating properly in my words. I'd like to think that I was in the neighborhood...
I have and have read The Killing Joke but aside from Brian Bolland's incredible artwork,the story doesn't impress me-- but then I don't think Batman should find what happens to The Joker's victim in this story at all laughable.
Sorry, W.G. that you weren't as impressed with it as I was. We all get different things from the same pot sometimes. Bolland is awesome BTW...
Bolland did a great job--I think the only artist who could have done an even better job is Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez.But that's neither here nor there.I liked the possible origin for The Joker but found what he did to Barbara Gordon pointless and Batman's finding even the slightest amount of humor in it absolutely unforgivable and entirely out of character.I understand the theme-bad things happen to good people and Joker was sharing the pain.But seeing Batman begin to chuckle at a joke based upon what had occured to Barbara made me recoil in disgust.
As for the Joker in The Dark Knight?
Not sure.As long as he doesn't go wildly over the top ala' Cesar or Jack I'll be pleased.Of course he will,however,because that's exactly what Warners will expect.They've got toys to sell and will want the audience members unfamiliar with the comic book character as originally devised to be able to sit back and laugh along with him.
And there'll be lots of children in the seats so Joker won't be too grotesque or overtly evil.Can't upset the kids and anger their parents.In the end,he'll probably be played every bit as broadly as Nicholson's hammy version.
But for the sake of argument, let's assume Nolan really does have a free hand and he wants to make a more serious movie.In that case,I wouldn't be too surprised if the new Joker's look is extremely minimal--at least in contrast to what we've become familiar with.Maybe just with those bad teeth you've suggested and a perverse pleasure at his own abilities which causes him to laugh out loud frequently.He might even use facepaint.But please--no bag over the head this time.
If the decision IS to go minimalist,then a newpaper cartoonist character/or police sketch artist in the course of the movie could always draw a more exaggerated version of Joker in one scene and that one could look more like the internationally famous comic book interpretation.
As for the story?Hmmm...I'd make The Joker a serial killer whose victims appear at first glance to have nothing in common--other than the rictus grins on their faces.I think Philip MacDonald's The List of Adrian Messenger would be a good example of the kind of storyline for such a screenplay.Also the earliest Bill Finger Joker tales from 1940 should be seriously considered too.They're very good portrayals of this villain and shouldn't be ignored.
Anyway,the pursuit of such a criminal(with the GCPD also chasing him but baffled by his cleverness) would allow us to see Batman function as an honest-to-God detective.Of course, Joker would be a couple steps ahead of The Caped Crusader long enough to build some real suspense.
And there'd be a solid reason for what first looks like a madman's killing spree--something leading up to an important event/character-potentially devastating.I'd like this story to be suspenseful as well as action-packed.
Nolan's mentioned "The Killing Joke" elsewhere, so some portions of the origin story Moore provided(itself based upon the earlier Bill Finger version:"The Mystery of the Red Hood") might appear on screen.
I'd much prefer it if they didn't overpack the Nolan Batmans with villains. One good villain per picture is sufficient, in my mind.
And they've got to fix what Burton did to the Penguin, IMHO. He should be more of a gangland-style crime figure---short and fat, with a tuxedo...a cigarette in a long-stemmed holder, and perhaps a bit of a nose. But let's not make him 'Lord of the Sewers' again
Agreed.What Burton did to The Penguin(and Batman)is nothing short of a crime.Bring back an interpretation that more closely resembles the one in the comics.It didn't call out to be tampered with.
And one villain is enough per picture--they don't need big gangs of henchmen,either.
Batman Begins has no less than 4 recognizable villains (Raas, Falcone, Scarecrow, and Zzaz). You can have more than one villain; the trick is to write the story properly so that everyone has something to do.
Personally, I'd like to see one major villain (and it looks like it'll be the Joker in B:TDK) along with a secondary, less recognizable one that would make a good foil, thereby preserving at least one major rogues gallery model for subsequent films.
Of course, the ultimate villain would have to be...Bat Mite. Just Kidding
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
And one villain is enough per picture--they don't need big gangs of henchmen,either.
This is what bothered me about the Dick Tracy film years ago. Prominent villians, who could carry a picture on their own, were reduced to no more than goons... 8-)
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Batman Begins has no less than 4 recognizable villains (Raas, Falcone, Scarecrow, and Zzaz). You can have more than one villain; the trick is to write the story properly so that everyone has something to do.
Personally, I'd like to see one major villain (and it looks like it'll be the Joker in B:TDK) along with a secondary, less recognizable one that would make a good foil, thereby preserving at least one major rogues gallery model for subsequent films.
Of course, the ultimate villain would have to be...Bat Mite. Just Kidding
I can see it now:"We have to make this REAL!" Christopher Nolan explains as he announces the signing of Peter Dinkledge as Bat-Mite."We've decided that he's a drug-addicted alcoholic burglar who murders his victims and poses as a circus performer who wears a costume modeled after Batman's own.Whenever he's high on crack,he thinks he's in another dimension."
Batman Begins has no less than 4 recognizable villains (Raas, Falcone, Scarecrow, and Zzaz). You can have more than one villain; the trick is to write the story properly so that everyone has something to do.
Personally, I'd like to see one major villain (and it looks like it'll be the Joker in B:TDK) along with a secondary, less recognizable one that would make a good foil, thereby preserving at least one major rogues gallery model for subsequent films.
Of course, the ultimate villain would have to be...Bat Mite. Just Kidding
I can see it now:"We have to make this REAL!" Christopher Nolan explains as he announces the signing of Peter Dinkledge as Bat-Mite."We've decided that he's a drug-addicted alcoholic burglar who murders his victims and poses as a circus performer who wears a costume modeled after Batman's own.Whenever he's high on crack,he thinks he's in another dimension."
No no no. All wrong. Nolan signs Andy Serkis to be Bat Mite. Even though the character will be motion captured CGI, Serkis takes it upon himself to lose 130 pounds and has his vocal chords modified so he can really get into the character and perform on-stage with the other actors during filming. His performance is lauded as a breakthrough in comic-book adaptations and he seems a shoe in for an Oscar nomination. Sadly, he loses out to Daniel Craig for his riveting, genre-shattering turn in Gay Bikers on Acid, a loose remake of Nicholas Cage's "Ghost Rider".
Batman Begins has no less than 4 recognizable villains (Raas, Falcone, Scarecrow, and Zzaz). You can have more than one villain; the trick is to write the story properly so that everyone has something to do.
Personally, I'd like to see one major villain (and it looks like it'll be the Joker in B:TDK) along with a secondary, less recognizable one that would make a good foil, thereby preserving at least one major rogues gallery model for subsequent films.
Of course, the ultimate villain would have to be...Bat Mite. Just Kidding
I can see it now:"We have to make this REAL!" Christopher Nolan explains as he announces the signing of Peter Dinkledge as Bat-Mite."We've decided that he's a drug-addicted alcoholic burglar who murders his victims and poses as a circus performer who wears a costume modeled after Batman's own.Whenever he's high on crack,he thinks he's in another dimension."
No no no. All wrong. Nolan signs Andy Serkis to be Bat Mite. Even though the character will be motion captured CGI, Serkis takes it upon himself to lose 130 pounds and has his vocal chords modified so he can really get into the character and perform on-stage with the other actors during filming. His performance is lauded as a breakthrough in comic-book adaptations and he seems a shoe in for an Oscar nomination. Sadly, he loses out to Daniel Craig for his riveting, genre-shattering turn in Gay Bikers on Acid, a loose remake of Nicholas Cage's "Ghost Rider".
Doesn't sound too bad at all, but since Nolan's obsessed with making a comic book character's world as "real" as possible and seems to be favoring critically acclaimed Oscar winners/nominees over other performers, I'm thinking Pete might be more appealing,having been nominated for his performance in The Station Agent.Even if Pete IS an American.
Or,Philip Seymour Hoffman could play Bat-Mite.It's a challenging role, but Phil'd probably be up for it.A 6' tall Bat-Mite.An opportunity for Nolan to reveal his skill at casting against type.Kind of like the World's Tallest Midget on "My Name is Earl," but with a more artistic pedigree.;)
I can see it now:"We have to make this REAL!" Christopher Nolan explains as he announces the signing of Peter Dinkledge as Bat-Mite."We've decided that he's a drug-addicted alcoholic burglar who murders his victims and poses as a circus performer who wears a costume modeled after Batman's own.Whenever he's high on crack,he thinks he's in another dimension."
Here's one for the "Did You Know" department: Peter Dinklage is playing Simon Barsinister in the movie version of Underdog (I kid you not!). After reading your piece of speculation, WG, I'm wondering what Dinklage's interpretation of ol' Simon will be like!
I can see it now:"We have to make this REAL!" Christopher Nolan explains as he announces the signing of Peter Dinkledge as Bat-Mite."We've decided that he's a drug-addicted alcoholic burglar who murders his victims and poses as a circus performer who wears a costume modeled after Batman's own.Whenever he's high on crack,he thinks he's in another dimension."
Here's one for the "Did You Know" department: Peter Dinklage is playing Simon Barsinister in the movie version of Underdog (I kid you not!). After reading your piece of speculation, WG, I'm wondering what Dinklage's interpretation of ol' Simon will be like!
Interesting.And who plays Underdog--Verne Troyer or Steve Carrell?
Interesting.And who plays Underdog--Verne Troyer or Steve Carrell?
Well, of course Underdog will be CG--and he's being voiced by Jason "My Name Is Earl" Lee. Now, I like Lee, but Wally Cox he ain't! And the movie sounds terrible--according to IMDb, it will involve a boy and his real dog (named Shoeshine), which receives a jolt of some sort of formula that turns him into the walking, talking Underdog. I don't know where it leaves the fantasy world where animals and humans are equals. . .where's Sweet Polly Purebread and the evil Riff Raff? Gads--I hope no one gets the bright idea to make a movie of Tennessee Tuxedo and Chumley!
Three quick questions: (Rogue, these are mostly aimed at you )
1)Don't shoot me but does anybody think it'll be a good idea to bring back back Robin, and can that be done in a non-campy realistic way?
2)If Nolan is bringing back villains, how about The Riddler?
3)Tony mentioned The Ventriloquist and ScarFace. I've been doing a bit of reading up on him in wikepedia and he looks like a great villain. Does anybody agree?
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Three quick questions: (Rogue, these are mostly aimed at you )
1)Don't shoot me but does anybody think it'll be a good idea to bring back back Robin, and can that be done in a non-campy realistic way?
Personally...I'm not ready to see another Robin anytime soon since after 8 years, I still have a bad taste in my mouth from B&R. Even as a kid, I'd always preferred Bats on his own in the comics; that's nothing against Robs...I love him and I'd be flexible with accepting a new sidekick somewhere down the road. Nolan has flirted with the idea of having a Robin and Ricky Muniz's name has popped up for consideration. That's all I know on that...
2)If Nolan is bringing back villains, how about The Riddler?
W.G. & I were in agreement that this guy should resurface at some point. So yes, I would love to see how Nolan would handle such an intricate character.
3)Tony mentioned The Ventriloquist and ScarFace. I've been doing a bit of reading up on him in wikepedia and he looks like a great villain. Does anybody agree?
Yes and no. I mean I loved them from BTAS but in that structure, they're easier to digest. In motion pictures though...Scarface might come off as too Chucky if you're not careful. I mean Nolan could make a moving and complex drama from the two...I just don't think I'd want to waste 2 hours of my life seeing an adventure revolving around a doll and a snivelling introvert.
He'd make a great secondary villian but I don't know... I could be wrong.
Does anyone know if the Scarface character was inspired by that Anthony Hopkins film MAGIC? Or some of thse Twilight Zone episodes?
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
In motion pictures Scarface might come off as too Chucky if you're not careful.Does anyone know if the Scarface character was inspired by that Anthony Hopkins film MAGIC? Or some of those Twilight Zone episodes?
I believe the Scarface puppet is named after the famous 1920s Chicago criminal "Scarface" Al Capone("Vote early,and vote often" was one of his more famous bits of wisdom) ,who in turn was the clear inspiration for the vaguely fictional gangster called "Scarface" in the early 1930s movie of the same name starring Paul Muni in the lead role--Scarface:Shame of a Nation,directed by Howard Hawks(and this was the source of a loose remake with Al Pacino as a scarred Cuban druglord in 1980s Miami).The puppet is dressed like a stereotypical gangster, right down to the pinstriped jacket,the black shirt and fedora."He" even packs a tommygun, like all of the generic Prohibition gangsters in the movies of the 30s did.
The mild-mannered Ventriloquist and his dangerous and domineering puppet are probably based upon a very similar character who is the central figure in the final segment of the classic 1940s British suspense anthology film Dead of Night--which,as author William Goldman has often acknowledged--provided the direct inspiration for the lead character Corky (and his situation) in his novel and subsequent motion picture,Magic.
As for Robin?No thanks.Never much liked the character to begin with.I think Batman always works best by himself.Robin's okay in animation but not nearly as effective in live action.By his very nature,Batman's a loner--at least while in the field.I hope he stays that way.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
Batman Begins has no less than 4 recognizable villains (Raas, Falcone, Scarecrow, and Zzaz). You can have more than one villain; the trick is to write the story properly so that everyone has something to do.
One major villain, obviously, but the other three were relatively minor, and thus didn't require the sort of set-up and pay-off necessary to do them justice. The more big characters you try to put into the mix, the more the writer has to become a juggler, and keep too many balls aloft.
IMHO, BR, BF and B&R never had a chance because of this---when you're always trying to tell a new 'origin' story, you run out of time to get an actual plot onto the screen.
BB pulled it off, but they needn't all have that many, IMHO.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
One major villain, obviously, but the other three were relatively minor, and thus didn't require the sort of set-up and pay-off necessary to do them justice. The more big characters you try to put into the mix, the more the writer has to become a juggler, and keep too many balls aloft.
IMHO, BR, BF and B&R never had a chance because of this---when you're always trying to tell a new 'origin' story, you run out of time to get an actual plot onto the screen.
BB pulled it off, but they needn't all have that many, IMHO.
True, the Spider-Man films are IMO perfect examples of what to do with a great sole villain. I actually don't mind if the next Batman film has one, two or ten villains, as long as the screenplay is good. To me, the quality of the screenplay is in fact the biggest difference between BB and B&R. However, fortunitely, I'm not particularly worried that the next Batman film will feature a good screenplay.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Personally...I'm not ready to see another Robin anytime soon since after 8 years, I still have a bad taste in my mouth from B&R. Even as a kid, I'd always preferred Bats on his own in the comics; that's nothing against Robs...I love him and I'd be flexible with accepting a new sidekick somewhere down the road. Nolan has flirted with the idea of having a Robin and Ricky Muniz's name has popped up for consideration. That's all I know on that...
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I think that Robin should be brought back. As someone who grew up watching the old Batman TV show, and then watched B+R, Robin has always come across as quite campy to me. However, I would be interested in Nolan's take on it; as long as he waits a film or two.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Here's a few more snippets on Batman: The Dark Knight. In short, Bob Hoskins says he'd love to be in the movie (hear that WG?) and Heath Ledger suggests his Joker may have more to do with Clockwork Orange than with Jack Nicholson. Have a read...
I think that Ledger could be great but I still think he's making a mistake if he discards the laugh. He doesn't have to do a Nicholson but for many people such as myself who have never read a comc book, the laugh is the characteristic that we most associate with The Joker. In fact, in both the 1989 film and the old TV show, The Joker had a noticeable laugh.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Ledger doesn't discount the laugh--he says his performance will be less about the laugh and more about the eyes--so perhaps he's going for the creep-you-out deadeye look that was a hallmark of Bob Kane's original Joker (see pic I posted some pages back). If so, then I'm looking forward to what Ledger will bring to the table.
Oh, I know that he said it'll be less about the laugh, but my concern is that he'll take it too far. Far better IMO that he be a Joker who laughs too much (like Nicholson) than one that doesn't laugh enough. I've said this before but my only two experiences with The Joker were the Adam West TV show and the 1989 film; and in both The Joker had a really memorable laugh.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Not sure of its accuracy but this article states that Ledger hates comic films:
Heath keeps the laugh to a minimum and he and I will have problems with this... 8-)
Wouldn't take this too seriously,Rogue.
In all honesty,not every comic book movie is especially outstanding.Filmmakers sometimes get the general look right,but after that;s accomplished they settle for mediocre screenplays.
But by the same token,not every "Important"drama or comedy or musical or gangster film or science fiction or fantasy or Western or horror flick or costume epic or musical is a masterpiece either.There are a lot of lousy movies in every genre...:)
Even if Ledger's only doing DK for the money (and even if Nolan only signed him because he's only wants to work with Oscar winners/nominees),the movie will probably be okay anyway.
Heath keeps the laugh to a minimum and he and I will have problems with this... 8-)
In all fairness to Heath, he also said that "But I thought what Chris Nolan did with Batman was actually really good, really well directed, and Christian Bale was really great in it." So even if he hates comic book movies he does like BB, which many critics who generally dislike comic book movies seemed to enjoy. Plus he also said "But I think it’s just going to be a really fun experience, and I love to dress up and wear a mask" so I'm sure he'll give it everything he's got.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Comments
And they've got to fix what Burton did to the Penguin, IMHO. He should be more of a gangland-style crime figure---short and fat, with a tuxedo...a cigarette in a long-stemmed holder, and perhaps a bit of a nose. But let's not make him 'Lord of the Sewers' again
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Respectfully both you guys make excellent points. The challenge will be if Nolan can provide a happy medium.
I mean I strongly admired Romero's version, in all of its kookiness, as well as Nicholson's more vicious approach albeit with a "LOOK AT ME" type flavor.
One of the better Joker stories, and I might be called on this proclamation, was THE KILLING JOKE written by Alan Moore. He weaved a tale that had me on a rollercoaster of emotion as far as the villian was concerned. It was smartly written and the J-man wasn't a giggling idiot in this story.
You try and ask an actor to make such an iconic bad guy into a terminally glum mobster, with no referable ties to past incarnations, and you're asking for trouble...
So in a round-about way, you're both correct...I'm just babbling because I'm excited for this.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Maybe it's me but I've always loved his look here; Neal Adams (my idol) drawing it didn't hurt either...
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I'm not asking for the Joker to have a perpetually grim demeanor but I think he should be frightening and more impressive than Jack Nicholson's impression of himself.I want a frightening character as opposed to a camped-up and giggling prankster.
For the sake of debate, with your vivid imagination, give me a brief scenario of what you expect from the new clown. Something as callous as what he did to Barbara Gordon? Pushing a kid off of the roof of a building and laughing at the splat the victim makes on the concrete below? The fierceness of his appearance? I may be on the same page as you; it just may not be translating properly in my words. I'd like to think that I was in the neighborhood...
Sorry, W.G. that you weren't as impressed with it as I was. We all get different things from the same pot sometimes. Bolland is awesome BTW...
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Bolland did a great job--I think the only artist who could have done an even better job is Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez.But that's neither here nor there.I liked the possible origin for The Joker but found what he did to Barbara Gordon pointless and Batman's finding even the slightest amount of humor in it absolutely unforgivable and entirely out of character.I understand the theme-bad things happen to good people and Joker was sharing the pain.But seeing Batman begin to chuckle at a joke based upon what had occured to Barbara made me recoil in disgust.
As for the Joker in The Dark Knight?
Not sure.As long as he doesn't go wildly over the top ala' Cesar or Jack I'll be pleased.Of course he will,however,because that's exactly what Warners will expect.They've got toys to sell and will want the audience members unfamiliar with the comic book character as originally devised to be able to sit back and laugh along with him.
And there'll be lots of children in the seats so Joker won't be too grotesque or overtly evil.Can't upset the kids and anger their parents.In the end,he'll probably be played every bit as broadly as Nicholson's hammy version.
But for the sake of argument, let's assume Nolan really does have a free hand and he wants to make a more serious movie.In that case,I wouldn't be too surprised if the new Joker's look is extremely minimal--at least in contrast to what we've become familiar with.Maybe just with those bad teeth you've suggested and a perverse pleasure at his own abilities which causes him to laugh out loud frequently.He might even use facepaint.But please--no bag over the head this time.
If the decision IS to go minimalist,then a newpaper cartoonist character/or police sketch artist in the course of the movie could always draw a more exaggerated version of Joker in one scene and that one could look more like the internationally famous comic book interpretation.
As for the story?Hmmm...I'd make The Joker a serial killer whose victims appear at first glance to have nothing in common--other than the rictus grins on their faces.I think Philip MacDonald's The List of Adrian Messenger would be a good example of the kind of storyline for such a screenplay.Also the earliest Bill Finger Joker tales from 1940 should be seriously considered too.They're very good portrayals of this villain and shouldn't be ignored.
Anyway,the pursuit of such a criminal(with the GCPD also chasing him but baffled by his cleverness) would allow us to see Batman function as an honest-to-God detective.Of course, Joker would be a couple steps ahead of The Caped Crusader long enough to build some real suspense.
And there'd be a solid reason for what first looks like a madman's killing spree--something leading up to an important event/character-potentially devastating.I'd like this story to be suspenseful as well as action-packed.
Nolan's mentioned "The Killing Joke" elsewhere, so some portions of the origin story Moore provided(itself based upon the earlier Bill Finger version:"The Mystery of the Red Hood") might appear on screen.
Agreed.What Burton did to The Penguin(and Batman)is nothing short of a crime.Bring back an interpretation that more closely resembles the one in the comics.It didn't call out to be tampered with.
And one villain is enough per picture--they don't need big gangs of henchmen,either.
Personally, I'd like to see one major villain (and it looks like it'll be the Joker in B:TDK) along with a secondary, less recognizable one that would make a good foil, thereby preserving at least one major rogues gallery model for subsequent films.
Of course, the ultimate villain would have to be...Bat Mite.
This is what bothered me about the Dick Tracy film years ago. Prominent villians, who could carry a picture on their own, were reduced to no more than goons... 8-)
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I can see it now:"We have to make this REAL!" Christopher Nolan explains as he announces the signing of Peter Dinkledge as Bat-Mite."We've decided that he's a drug-addicted alcoholic burglar who murders his victims and poses as a circus performer who wears a costume modeled after Batman's own.Whenever he's high on crack,he thinks he's in another dimension."
No no no. All wrong. Nolan signs Andy Serkis to be Bat Mite. Even though the character will be motion captured CGI, Serkis takes it upon himself to lose 130 pounds and has his vocal chords modified so he can really get into the character and perform on-stage with the other actors during filming. His performance is lauded as a breakthrough in comic-book adaptations and he seems a shoe in for an Oscar nomination. Sadly, he loses out to Daniel Craig for his riveting, genre-shattering turn in Gay Bikers on Acid, a loose remake of Nicholas Cage's "Ghost Rider".
Doesn't sound too bad at all, but since Nolan's obsessed with making a comic book character's world as "real" as possible and seems to be favoring critically acclaimed Oscar winners/nominees over other performers, I'm thinking Pete might be more appealing,having been nominated for his performance in The Station Agent.Even if Pete IS an American.
Or,Philip Seymour Hoffman could play Bat-Mite.It's a challenging role, but Phil'd probably be up for it.A 6' tall Bat-Mite.An opportunity for Nolan to reveal his skill at casting against type.Kind of like the World's Tallest Midget on "My Name is Earl," but with a more artistic pedigree.;)
Here's one for the "Did You Know" department: Peter Dinklage is playing Simon Barsinister in the movie version of Underdog (I kid you not!). After reading your piece of speculation, WG, I'm wondering what Dinklage's interpretation of ol' Simon will be like!
Well, of course Underdog will be CG--and he's being voiced by Jason "My Name Is Earl" Lee. Now, I like Lee, but Wally Cox he ain't! And the movie sounds terrible--according to IMDb, it will involve a boy and his real dog (named Shoeshine), which receives a jolt of some sort of formula that turns him into the walking, talking Underdog. I don't know where it leaves the fantasy world where animals and humans are equals. . .where's Sweet Polly Purebread and the evil Riff Raff? Gads--I hope no one gets the bright idea to make a movie of Tennessee Tuxedo and Chumley!
1)Don't shoot me
2)If Nolan is bringing back villains, how about The Riddler?
3)Tony mentioned The Ventriloquist and ScarFace. I've been doing a bit of reading up on him in wikepedia and he looks like a great villain. Does anybody agree?
Personally...I'm not ready to see another Robin anytime soon since after 8 years, I still have a bad taste in my mouth from B&R. Even as a kid, I'd always preferred Bats on his own in the comics; that's nothing against Robs...I love him and I'd be flexible with accepting a new sidekick somewhere down the road. Nolan has flirted with the idea of having a Robin and Ricky Muniz's name has popped up for consideration. That's all I know on that...
W.G. & I were in agreement that this guy should resurface at some point. So yes, I would love to see how Nolan would handle such an intricate character.
Yes and no. I mean I loved them from BTAS but in that structure, they're easier to digest. In motion pictures though...Scarface might come off as too Chucky if you're not careful. I mean Nolan could make a moving and complex drama from the two...I just don't think I'd want to waste 2 hours of my life seeing an adventure revolving around a doll and a snivelling introvert.
He'd make a great secondary villian but I don't know... I could be wrong.
Does anyone know if the Scarface character was inspired by that Anthony Hopkins film MAGIC? Or some of thse Twilight Zone episodes?
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I believe the Scarface puppet is named after the famous 1920s Chicago criminal "Scarface" Al Capone("Vote early,and vote often" was one of his more famous bits of wisdom) ,who in turn was the clear inspiration for the vaguely fictional gangster called "Scarface" in the early 1930s movie of the same name starring Paul Muni in the lead role--Scarface:Shame of a Nation,directed by Howard Hawks(and this was the source of a loose remake with Al Pacino as a scarred Cuban druglord in 1980s Miami).The puppet is dressed like a stereotypical gangster, right down to the pinstriped jacket,the black shirt and fedora."He" even packs a tommygun, like all of the generic Prohibition gangsters in the movies of the 30s did.
The mild-mannered Ventriloquist and his dangerous and domineering puppet are probably based upon a very similar character who is the central figure in the final segment of the classic 1940s British suspense anthology film Dead of Night--which,as author William Goldman has often acknowledged--provided the direct inspiration for the lead character Corky (and his situation) in his novel and subsequent motion picture,Magic.
As for Robin?No thanks.Never much liked the character to begin with.I think Batman always works best by himself.Robin's okay in animation but not nearly as effective in live action.By his very nature,Batman's a loner--at least while in the field.I hope he stays that way.
One major villain, obviously, but the other three were relatively minor, and thus didn't require the sort of set-up and pay-off necessary to do them justice. The more big characters you try to put into the mix, the more the writer has to become a juggler, and keep too many balls aloft.
IMHO, BR, BF and B&R never had a chance because of this---when you're always trying to tell a new 'origin' story, you run out of time to get an actual plot onto the screen.
BB pulled it off, but they needn't all have that many, IMHO.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/731/731748p1.html
http://www.slashfilm.com/article.php/20060912heath-ledger-hates
Heath keeps the laugh to a minimum and he and I will have problems with this... 8-)
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Wouldn't take this too seriously,Rogue.
In all honesty,not every comic book movie is especially outstanding.Filmmakers sometimes get the general look right,but after that;s accomplished they settle for mediocre screenplays.
But by the same token,not every "Important"drama or comedy or musical or gangster film or science fiction or fantasy or Western or horror flick or costume epic or musical is a masterpiece either.There are a lot of lousy movies in every genre...:)
Even if Ledger's only doing DK for the money (and even if Nolan only signed him because he's only wants to work with Oscar winners/nominees),the movie will probably be okay anyway.
http://www.break.com/movies/how_superman_should_have_ended.html
Carry on.