Girls of the week - Elektra and Christmas

taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
in The James Bond Films
Well this movie is unique. We have an underdeveloped girl who Bond ends up with at the end. We also have a girl who is very interesting plot wise who Bond doesnt end up with (im gonna start next week off with EXACTLY the same opener.) I was thinking about doing one week for each, but lets face it - there are enough "why was Christmas even in that movie" that I decided to do both girls together.

ElektraInteresting choice about having Bond fall in love with a girl, only for her to turn out to be evil; the idea however was badly developed. BOnd had only meet her for one day, and yet was madly in love with her. Is he really THAT horny.

Christmas Where did she get her degree? How old was she when she graduated? Whats with the tatoo? What was she doing in Kazakhstan? All good question, none answered. And who names their kind Christmas, stoners?

Ill post more later, have to run.
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Comments

  • NatalyaNatalya Posts: 7MI6 Agent
    Bond was in love with Elektra? The film showed no indication of that. Elektra was merely another conquest for Bond. He showed no more affection for Elektra than any other Bond girl (Less in fact).
  • taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
    Natalya wrote:
    Bond was in love with Elektra? The film showed no indication of that. Elektra was merely another conquest for Bond. He showed no more affection for Elektra than any other Bond girl (Less in fact).

    I always thought that the point of TWINE was that he did hold strong feelings for Elektra, and had fallen in love with her. She was no different to Fiona or her modern day cousine Xenia if he hadnt fallen in love with her.
  • NatalyaNatalya Posts: 7MI6 Agent
    taity wrote:

    I always thought that the point of TWINE was that he did hold strong feelings for Elektra, and had fallen in love with her. She was no different to Fiona or her modern day cousine Xenia if he hadnt fallen in love with her.

    I think Bond was not so much in love with Elektra but hurt by the act of her betrayal. Bond had placed a degree of trust in Elektra's claims of being in personal danger. He also felt a degree of sympathy for Elektra due to the curcumstances of her kidnapping.

    But was he in love with her? Unlikely.
  • IanAndOutIanAndOut RoselandPosts: 33MI6 Agent
    Love may be too strong a word, I doubt Bond could ever love someone in the way most see it. But I think he had a strong connection, somthing between the lust he has towards all pretty girls and love. Bond has an attraction to birds with a wing down, hurt girls that he feels needs protection. Look at Domino or Honey, wounded vulnerable but still strong. Elektra was the perfect modern example, but more so. Look at the way Bond touches her tears on the computer screen, it is a moving moment because Bond feels for her, he wants to save her, he dosen't know from what but he must. Bond felt for her, wanted her to be happy, somthing he dosen't do very much with most of the girls he sleeps with. Bond dedicated himself to protect her, leaving himself vunrable, and that is when she struck. I think in time he may have loved her in his own way, much like Tracy (they were very similar, just one was insane), but she betrayed him, he opened his heart and she stabed him so he killed her. I think Bond got stone drunk for a few weeks after it was all over, and may still think about her, but only he knows for sure.
  • The CatThe Cat Where Blofeld is!Posts: 711MI6 Agent
    IanAndOut wrote:
    I think in time he may have loved her in his own way, much like Tracy (they were very similar, just one was insane)...

    Which one was insane? ;) :))

    [/quote]...but she betrayed him, he opened his heart and she stabed him so he killed her. I think Bond got stone drunk for a few weeks after it was all over, and may still think about her, but only he knows for sure.[/quote]

    That's it. Why did he open he's heart? This was completely unprofessional and the same thing with M. They just loose it all once they get in contact with Elektra. But why? She might seem to be torn on screen, but when she appears in real life, she seems like a rather capable business woman and a bit of a hedonist. And one day is really too soon to get so involved with anyone... And if this was a one-off instance, I'd say okay, but see the same thing with Paris or especially with Miranda.
  • Moonraker 10Moonraker 10 Posts: 16MI6 Agent
    Well, just look at Jinx and Bond in DAD. They did the do the very day they met, apperently.
  • The CatThe Cat Where Blofeld is!Posts: 711MI6 Agent
    Moonraker 10 wrote:
    Well, just look at Jinx and Bond in DAD. They did the do the very day they met, apperently.

    But that one was without the little bit of romance. It was pure animal sexuality stuff down to the mating feasting predators...
  • MBE_MBE_ USAPosts: 266MI6 Agent
    The Cat wrote:
    IanAndOut wrote:
    I think in time he may have loved her in his own way, much like Tracy (they were very similar, just one was insane)...

    Which one was insane? ;) :))

    Both. One criminally so though. :))

    Bond loves the nutty chicks! Maybe because Bond is a little nuts himself.
    cat wrote:
    ...but she betrayed him, he opened his heart and she stabed him so he killed her. I think Bond got stone drunk for a few weeks after it was all over, and may still think about her, but only he knows for sure.

    That's it. Why did he open he's heart? This was completely unprofessional and the same thing with M. They just loose it all once they get in contact with Elektra. But why? She might seem to be torn on screen, but when she appears in real life, she seems like a rather capable business woman and a bit of a hedonist. And one day is really too soon to get so involved with anyone... And if this was a one-off instance, I'd say okay, but see the same thing with Paris or especially with Miranda.

    Not really the same at all. Paris was a previous (seemingly long term) relationship rekindled for one night. Miranda, that was sex, there's nothing romantic about it. He's ****ed off that she betrayed him as a professional and as human being but he's not emotionally involved with her. He stops and looks at her when she's dead but I don't see any love there. I guess he could have kicked her to make sure but it's a PG-13 film and all the fanboys were already moaning that she was dead instead of Jinx. :))

    As for Bond falling for women quickly, he always does, even in the books -- often unprofessionally -- not just sexually but emotionally. And the one's he's most taken with as said above are those with a broken wing. Elektra is indeed now a competent businesswoman but she's also a victim of kidnapping, and rape who's father's been murdered by the guy who victimized her and is after her. Bond feels protective and is attracted to the duality of her strength and vulnerability. He's impressed when he sees her conducting business and how she refuses to still be afraid and then he's touched emotionally during the avalanche when her justified fears come full force (that's a great moment when he calms her down and reassures her) -- not to mention touched by her beauty. You can see all of this in their conversation in bed. It's a triple threat and Bond falls for her and then feels emotionally betrayed by her. Maybe if he hadn't he wouldn't have shot her, just knocked her out. :D

    M is unprofessional, but they had a prior relationship. M knew Elektra since she was a child, and M feels guilty because she left her to rot to use her as bait to get to Renard. M's been unprofessional before, at least the M in the books where Messervy asks Bond to kill for personal revenge and justice for him.

    MBE
  • MBE_MBE_ USAPosts: 266MI6 Agent
    edited July 2005
    The Cat wrote:
    Moonraker 10 wrote:
    Well, just look at Jinx and Bond in DAD. They did the do the very day they met, apperently.

    But that one was without the little bit of romance. It was pure animal sexuality stuff down to the mating feasting predators...

    And what's wrong with that? :)) Yes, there's no love affair with Jinx, there's sex and there's professional commaderie, respect and friendship, but not love. It's evident to me though that he likes Jinx more than he likes Miranda - that's truly just sex mingled withn a little animosity. Nothing wrong with that either! It's Bond, it's what Bond does. ;)

    MBE
  • The CatThe Cat Where Blofeld is!Posts: 711MI6 Agent
    MBE_ wrote:
    It's evident to me though that he likes Jinx more than he likes Miranda - that's truly just sex. Nothing wrong with that either! ;)

    Than what's with all the tears and the kneeling down? Wake up Bond, there's a burning airplane around you! Get outta there!
  • MBE_MBE_ USAPosts: 266MI6 Agent
    edited July 2005
    The Cat wrote:
    MBE_ wrote:
    It's evident to me though that he likes Jinx more than he likes Miranda - that's truly just sex. Nothing wrong with that either! ;)

    Than what's with all the tears and the kneeling down? Wake up Bond, there's a burning airplane around you! Get outta there!

    Oh please, there are no tears. He kneels down and takes a look, that's it. After that trouble with Alec he's probably just making sure -- those Mi6 agents are tricky! I still think he should have kicked her. :D

    MBE
  • The CatThe Cat Where Blofeld is!Posts: 711MI6 Agent
    edited July 2005
    MBE_ wrote:
    Oh please, there are no tears. He kneels down and takes a look, that's it. After that trouble with Alec he's probably just making sure -- those Mi6 agents are tricky! I still think he should have kicked her. :D

    Okay, let's call it sweating. ;) But yeah, he's perhaps only checking. Guess he got used to plot inconsistencies and people surviving when they shouldn't. I'm just glad Purvis & Wade didn't write any wisecrack for him for the sequece. Though I always wondered how the scene would look like with an added 'B!tch is dead'... 8-)

    Oh, back on Elektra... That was another good 'B!tch is dead' moment...

    And come on people, don't forget about Christmas Jones. DOCTOR Christmas Jones. :p
  • IanAndOutIanAndOut RoselandPosts: 33MI6 Agent
    edited July 2005
    The Cat wrote:
    IanAndOut wrote:
    I think in time he may have loved her in his own way, much like Tracy (they were very similar, just one was insane)...

    Which one was insane? ;) :))

    Bond has alot of mental problems, so the women he falls for have some as well. I do not think Tracy was insane. If anything she was very depressed (a malady I believe Bond suffers as well). The book makes mention of Tracy losing a child, try to find a person who dosn't contemplate suicide after that. Elektra on the other hand was a sociopath (like it or not this is somthing Bond is as well to a certain degree, one has to be when in a profession that requires no moral code and paranoia), she knew excatly what she was doing but did not care, she had her goals and nothing else mattered. Bond being with Tracy made him happy, Bond killing Elektra made him moral. These two woman represent both natures of Bond good and ill, they where both most like him, just different parts. Gosh that sounds funny. I may edit that out, I need some sleep.
  • AlexAlex The Eastern SeaboardPosts: 2,694MI6 Agent
    I prefer the double punch of the TWINE ladies over DAD. Heresy I know, to say anything bad about Miranda, but Electra has onscreen electricity and serious depth. She stole every scene she was in - Job accomplished. And I can't say the same for all the rest. And, some dislike the idea of Bond falling in love and showing his sensitive side, but as mentioned, that's what happened, literally. He is not a superman.

    Christmas could have used a few retakes on the line reading, particularly the "talk Spy" business, but that's small potatoes nitpicks. Richards was cast because she's a beautiful likable woman, at least to some - like me. :D
  • Moore Not LessMoore Not Less Posts: 1,095MI6 Agent
    MBE_ wrote:
    Bond loves the nutty chicks! Maybe because Bond is a little nuts himself.MBE

    No, Bond just loves a good nibble. :))

    I wouldn't mind giving Maria Grazie Cucinotta and Serena Scott Thomas a good nibble. For me, they are better looking than Sophie Marceau and Denise Richards.
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly Liverpool, UKPosts: 1,048MI6 Agent
    edited July 2005
    I love Christmas Jones; but this may be for the same reasons that I love Showgirls. As scripted, Christmas is a fantastic Bond Girl, and as seen, Denise Richards more than makes the grade. The failing is when she opens her mouth. See my profile for what I consider to be the best line ruined by a bad performance in a Bond film. It could have been a defining, funny, clever, moment; instead, Denise clearly doesn't understand the joke, and therefore drains it of all comic value. But put it this way: I have a picture of Denise Richards in crop top and hot pants on my desk at work - not Pussy Velour.

    Elektra is a superb villainess, and her role as a "bird with a wing down" fits exactly with Bond's previous love affairs - don't forget that the woman he married was a suicidal neurotic. 007 has always liked to save the girl, and who better than a recently orphaned multimillionairess?
    Founder of the Wint & Kidd Appreciation Society.

    @merseytart
  • Moonraker 10Moonraker 10 Posts: 16MI6 Agent
    I thought that his romance with Elektra was intended to be a sort of "will he marry again?" plot. And Sophie can be just as hot as Denise any day of the week. But then again, Charlie Sheen's not complaining, either!
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    edited October 2006
    IanAndOut wrote:
    Love may be too strong a word, I doubt Bond could ever love someone in the way most see it. But I think he had a strong connection, somthing between the lust he has towards all pretty girls and love. Bond has an attraction to birds with a wing down, hurt girls that he feels needs protection. Look at Domino or Honey, wounded vulnerable but still strong. Elektra was the perfect modern example, but more so. Look at the way Bond touches her tears on the computer screen, it is a moving moment because Bond feels for her, he wants to save her, he dosen't know from what but he must. Bond felt for her, wanted her to be happy, somthing he dosen't do very much with most of the girls he sleeps with. Bond dedicated himself to protect her, leaving himself vunrable, and that is when she struck. I think in time he may have loved her in his own way, much like Tracy (they were very similar, just one was insane), but she betrayed him, he opened his heart and she stabed him so he killed her. I think Bond got stone drunk for a few weeks after it was all over, and may still think about her, but only he knows for sure.
    I would argue that he's attracted to all kinds of girls, not just ones that need protection. After all, look at Pussy in Goldfinger. I do concede however that he had more feelings for Electra than for most other girls (even Pussy, whom he viewed just as much as a challenge as the next conquest)and part of it is due to her fragility, but I think it's inaccurate to say that he was solely attracted to her because of her weakness. Bond would see himself himself as a protector, on a professional level and on a personal level that was perhaps best represented by the Connery films, but I don't think that he would be attracted to someone simply because they are especially fragile.

    In regards to your last point, I can't picture Bond getting stone drunk. I don't know why, maybe because it's so ungentleman-like, but if if did I doubt (and hope that it wouldn't) that it would be for Electra.
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    edited October 2006
    [quote=MBE) As for Bond falling for women quickly, he always does, even in the books -- often unprofessionally -- not just sexually but emotionally. And the one's he's most taken with as said above are those with a broken wing. Elektra is indeed now a competent businesswoman but she's also a victim of kidnapping, and rape who's father's been murdered by the guy who victimized her and is after her. Bond feels protective and is attracted to the duality of her strength and vulnerability. He's impressed when he sees her conducting business and how she refuses to still be afraid and then he's touched emotionally during the avalanche when her justified fears come full force (that's a great moment when he calms her down and reassures her) -- not to mention touched by her beauty. You can see all of this in their conversation in bed. It's a triple threat and Bond falls for her and then feels emotionally betrayed by her. Maybe if he hadn't he wouldn't have shot her, just knocked her out. MBE[/quote]I know I adressed this above, but I wanted to add that I think the books are and should be seen as separate to the films. So, the fact that the literature Bond is attracted to girls with a broken wing, doe not mean that the cinematic Bond is. Flemming may been responsible for he books, but he wasn't reponsible for the films (not directly that is), so I personally don't take into account what the literature Bond is like. And so, I completely disagree that Bond (cinematic)is mostly attracted to women who have a 'a broken wing.' In regards to Electra, I would argue that it was the triple threat you referred to: strength, beauty and fragility. Fragility has never been the major reason for Bond's attraction to a woman. beauty (or sexiness) and spirit have always been equally as important.
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • IanAndOutIanAndOut RoselandPosts: 33MI6 Agent
    [quote=Dan SameIn regards to your last point, I can't picture Bond getting stone drunk. I don't know why, maybe because it's so ungentleman-like, but if if did I doubt (and hope that it wouldn't) that it would be for Electra.[/quote]

    This was sort of an hommage to the book OHMSS, where Bond got drunk with his taxi driver in a sort of bachlor party after he had proposed. Tracy and Elektra are very similar so it was sort of a mirror image in drinking now that she was gone. Plus Bond drinks his depression away, the bedromm scene in TND is a perfect example, just how many shots had he had by the time Paris sauntered in? I would think that he was most likly morre then a little tipsy.
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    [quote=IanAndOut)

    This was sort of an hommage to the book OHMSS, where Bond got drunk with his taxi driver in a sort of bachlor party after he had proposed. Tracy and Elektra are very similar so it was sort of a mirror image in drinking now that she was gone. Plus Bond drinks his depression away, the bedromm scene in TND is a perfect example, just how many shots had he had by the time Paris sauntered in? I would think that he was most likly morre then a little tipsy.[/quote]

    He may have been tipsy but I don't think he was drunk. Plus, I think that the books have nothing to do with the films.
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    edited October 2006
    Sorry, I accidentally posted. ;%
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • 742617000027742617000027 Posts: 25MI6 Agent
    edited October 2006
    I watched TWINE yesterday. Never really understood the who turned who thing between Elektra and Renard.

    I get it now. Definitely one of my favourite Bond films. It's almost flawless. Could have done without the BMW to be honest. Bond could have lived without it, just another example of him falling back on gadgets when he could use his wits.

    Hope CR changes the trend.

    Anyway, Elektra is an amazing Bond girl. Not overly villainous like Klebb or May Day. She's a more cunning villain, which I think makes her scarier than being all muscly and ugly.

    Femme fatale at its greatest in the Bond series I think.

    Christmas is an okay Bond girl, just there for jokes really isn't she. Bond can't do it so Christmas does, to put Bond in his place.

    As the old daying goes. If she wasn't a nuclear physician, what use would she be.
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    edited October 2006
    742617000027 wrote:
    As the old daying goes. If she wasn't a nuclear physician, what use would she be.
    I'm sure Bond could find some use for her. :D

    Seriously, I don't understand why people hate her so much. Was she really that annoying? I can understand why people might hate Goodnight, Stacey Sutton, Wai Lin or Jinx (I certainly hate Jinx and Wai Lin), but Christmas? She's incredibly young to play a nuclear physician but she is good looking and her name led to arguably one of the greatest closing lines of all time.
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
    Also arguably the worst closing line.

    I dont like her because she doesnt really add anything to the story - other than being able to help Bond out disarm the nuclear bomb. Roger could do that on his own.

    Also, her name is of no use except for the final one liner. It just seems like such a stupid idea for a name with such a little pay off.
  • AlexAlex The Eastern SeaboardPosts: 2,694MI6 Agent
    taity wrote:
    Also arguably the worst closing line.
    I think you have a very strong case, sir. ;)
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    edited October 2006
    taity wrote:
    Also arguably the worst closing line.
    Well, you know what they say, "One man's favourite closing line is another man's least favourite closing line." ;)
    taity wrote:
    Also, her name is of no use except for the final one liner. It just seems like such a stupid idea for a name with such a little pay off.
    Well, to me, that last line alone was more than enough to justify this admittedly silly name. TWINE is one of my favourite Bond films, but one of my absolute favourite moments in the film was the end. That, to me, remains one of the truly great pay offs in the series. :D
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • heartbroken_mr_draxheartbroken_mr_drax New Zealand Posts: 2,073MI6 Agent
    the whole stuff around that name 'Christmas Jones' is done so well, Mikeal Arkov's "I dont know any doctor jokes" and "Spend Xmas in Turkey" are not bad, they are quite cleaver, and Peirce delivered that final line as if it was bad to make it good.

    The whole ending to TWINE was one of the best, it was romantic, and funny. Unlike some of the others, which are just funny.
    1. TWINE 2. FYEO 3. MR 4. TLD 5. TSWLM 6. OHMSS 7. DN 8. OP 9. AVTAK 10. TMWTGG 11. QoS 12. GE 13. CR 14. TB 15. FRWL 16. TND 17. LTK 18. GF 19. SF 20. LaLD 21. YOLT 22. NTTD 23. DAD 24. DAF. 25. SP

    "Better make that two."
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    heartbroken_mr_drax wrote:
    and Peirce delivered that final line as if it was bad to make it good.
    Finally, someone who agrees with me on this. :D
    heartbroken_mr_drax wrote:
    The whole ending to TWINE was one of the best, it was romantic, and funny. Unlike some of the others, which are just funny.
    I have to say that although TWINE is my second favourite Brosnan film (after GE), the final scene is probably my favourite among the Brosnans. ;)
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • AlexAlex The Eastern SeaboardPosts: 2,694MI6 Agent
    edited October 2006
    Naturally my favorite interaction between them was the exclamation of "Someone's going to have my ass!

    "First things first."

    :))
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