Never Say Never Again??

iommiiommi Posts: 13MI6 Agent
edited January 2006 in The James Bond Films
I just finished watching this film, and I hadn't seen it in ages. I know the story behind it (Thunderball etc). Just wondering what other folks thought about this film. Do you consider it a Bond film? What are some positive aspects of the film?

I'd probably not consider it a Bond picture. Its just got so many elements missing- the theme, the gun barrel, the PTS, the familier cast etc.
Sean Connery looks older obviously, and its difficult to relate this Connery to the one in FRWL and Goldfinger.
I loved the idea of Bond coming out of retirement
for one last job, and wished they'd developed that idea. Also ejoyed the casino scene, and the Domination game scene.
The theme tune itself ain't that great, and the cast is pretty dire (though Largo isn't bad).
I wonder what the opinion of this film would have been had it had the bond elements in it such as the them tune.
I think the strangest thing about the film is seeing Connery in a more contemporary looking Bond film, and a more realitic one without the extravagent sets etc.
Never say never again (always thought it was cleverly titled) is a very funny film, this is one thing thats clear from watching it. The "You said you'd catch me later" line, and the "what? From here?" (when refering to the urine sample) are extremely funny, and Rowan Atkinson is brilliant. Shame it wasn't an official on coz I could imagine him being developed as a character.
Th health club scene at the beginning is also very good.
All in all not a total disaster but the negatives out weigh the positives.
Bye the way, anyone know what became of the Warhead film that was on the verge of coming out round about '97 (yet another remake of Thunderball by Kevin Mclory). I wonder if they'll eer do it again
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Comments

  • taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
    Hmmm, as for me...

    I dont deem it a proper Bond. I have the basic reasons - no gun barrel, no james Bond theme. But theres something else wrong with the movie. To me it drags alot and for some reason it doesnt have the same classy feel that the EON movies have. It seems almost to be aiming at a lower target audience. The witty one liners seem to lack something (wit perhaps) and the plot is a straight out simple "you know the villian, you know the plot - nothing's gonna suprise you"
  • Agent SidewinderAgent Sidewinder Posts: 223MI6 Agent
    I'm not a fan of this film. Apart from the usual absence of EON trademarks the whole production looks cheap compared to the offical series. Connery looks ancient, far older than Moore did in AVTAK. You know you're in trouble when even M looks younger than Bond. Talking of M, Edward Fox needed to tone down the shouting. His M came across more as a stressed-out secondary school headmaster than the head of MI6. Klaus Maria Brandauer as Largo nearly works, but is let down by the script. I don't regard this film as official, but if I did, it'd be bottom of the pile.
  • 00640064 Somewhere out west...Posts: 1,083MI6 Agent
    Though I don't consider this an official Bond film, I do like this one alot. I think the add-ons to THunderball are, to say the least, cheesy at times. Most notably the video game theme. However, there are scenes in the movie when it is quite enjoyable like the motorcycle chase. Also, though I like the main actors, the supporting actor aren't very good. ( i.e. Q)
  • Valley DudeValley Dude Posts: 2MI6 Agent
    edited January 2006
    Personally I really liked it. Good plot, good action, excellent sets (especially the underwater ruins towards the end). Kept me interested and very entertained all the way through. I'm sure I'm alone here, but this movie and From Russia With Love are my two favorite Connery films. It seemed to have a very '60s feel to it, yet at the same time the special effects were a bit more fantastic. The cruise missiles were very memorable. And Fatima Blush - what can I say about her? One of my favorite girls. Fabulously gorgeous, great character, great style. The scene where she's demanding that Bond write down that she was the best he ever had, and he informs her that he can't make endorsements...that was hilarious as well as very stylish.

    A few problems though. Kim Basinger, though very pretty and I certainly appreciate those dancing scenes, was as vapid a character as I've ever seen. And the way the computer told her brother to "have a nice day", well, that was really stupid and sort of ruined what could have been a suspenseful scene. Also, okay, one too many lapses in logic. Bond got sent to a health clinic that the bad guy just happened to be at as well? Hmmm, what are the odds?

    I also didn't notice Connery looking as old as everyone else seems to think, but I didn't notice Moore looking old in AVTAK either. Guess I just don't notice such things.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent Speeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
    edited January 2006
    It's an ok Bond ATTEMPT...with recycled parts of Thunderball, as we all know but overall it's pretty generic compared to its rival of the same year; Octopussy.



    One peeve...Bond does not look good in sneakers...8-)
    Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"

    Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
    -Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
  • BondmoviesBondmovies Posts: 4MI6 Agent
    I would like to know why did
    MGM or UA or whatever company
    owns the bond francise ever allow
    this movie to be made. Did they
    view it as not a threat to the bond
    francise? Or did they not have the offical
    rights to bond?
  • taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
    Bondmovies wrote:
    I would like to know why did
    MGM or UA or whatever company owns the bond francise ever allow this movie to be made. Did they view it as not a threat to the bond francise? Or did they not have the offical rights to bond?

    Okay, this is a long answer, bu here we go...

    NSNA is a remake of Thunderball. When the original novel Thunderball was produced, a former partner (Kevin McClory) of Fleming recognised the base of the book as being his idea. He sued, and won. Fleming later sold the rights to the rest of the novels to EON (the producers of the series.)

    EON had found success in DN and FRWL, and because of this they agreed to collaborate with McCLory to produce Thunderball. Movie broke records, la de da. Within a few years, Moore had taken over the PPK and had made the role his own. Becuase of the rejeuvination of the series, McClory decided to reproduce Thunderball. He had a little trouble getting it off the ground, but he got Connery and made NSNA. EON had no power to stop him. McClory also decided to release his movie to run head to head with Octopussy. Around then, there was a huge debate as to which Bond was better - having them star in two moies at the same time would be the eaisiest way for Connery to upstage Moore.

    Of course, plans fell through. NSNA was slowed and held up for release. Also, the movie sucked. Ocotpussy ruled.
  • JennyFlexFanJennyFlexFan Posts: 1,497MI6 Agent
    No it didn't. I liked it! I actually think it's better than the orignial Thunderball *gasp*. That's right, you can quote me, JennyFlexFan on that statement. Largo in TB is far too old, too gangsterish and his relationship with Domino is too creepy for me. In NSNA, he poses as a philanthropist, Klaus Maria Brandauer is a classy, cultured, and sophisticated Largo yet he's psychotic enough to pull off a good villain. Adolfo Ceili, sorry you just didn't impress me. *gasp*. Also, I think that Fatima Blush is a better and more beautiful henchwoman than Fiona Volpe *GASP*. Quote me on that too, everyone praises Ms. Volpe to no tomorrow, don't get me wrong, she's quite a villainess but doesn't come close to Ms. Blush. Fatima was a complete and total psychopath, so beautiful and so deadly, takes joy in killing people. She's much more vivid than Luciana Paluzzi (still liked her, not as much as Fatima) but alas Barbara Carerra (Fatima Blush) wins this round. *gasp*. The plots are identical, none is better than the other. The Bond girls, Domino Derval vs. Domino Petachi. I would have said quite a while ago that Ms. Derval surpassed Ms. Petachi in beauty and character but after rewatching NSNA, she's not too bad and her relationship with Largo isn't as creepy. Ms. Derval only edges out Ms. Petachi by a tad because she had more of a reason to hate Largo and to harpoon him. (i.e. the torture) Everyone rags on NSNA's score, I for one like it very much and it beats Thunderball there too. *gasp*. The underwater sequences in TB are BORING, they are too long and could have been edited down. NSNA has enough to whet the audiences appetite and keep the movie fresh. NSNA wins again. *gasp*. So there you go, NSNA is better than Thunderball in my opinion. Do you agree?
  • micemice Posts: 3MI6 Agent
    It is only in the lastest viewing of this film on AMC that I realized this is not an "official" Bond movie. Previously I had viewed this without noticing the lack of the logo, the gun sights opener, or even the Bond girls dancing for the opening credits.

    It does have some redeeming features though, not the least of which is Kim Basinger. Plus one of my favorite actors Max von Sydow as Blofeld. Ok, he isn't on screen for very long but still its nice to see him there.

    The idea of Bond playing a video game is a little rediculous now but that is part of the charm.

    I think it is a "real" Bond movie, though maybe not the best one ever.
  • 00640064 Somewhere out west...Posts: 1,083MI6 Agent
    No it didn't. I liked it! I actually think it's better than the orignial Thunderball *gasp*. That's right, you can quote me, JennyFlexFan on that statement. Largo in TB is far too old, too gangsterish and his relationship with Domino is too creepy for me. In NSNA, he poses as a philanthropist, Klaus Maria Brandauer is a classy, cultured, and sophisticated Largo yet he's psychotic enough to pull off a good villain. Adolfo Ceili, sorry you just didn't impress me. *gasp*. Also, I think that Fatima Blush is a better and more beautiful henchwoman than Fiona Volpe *GASP*. Quote me on that too, everyone praises Ms. Volpe to no tomorrow, don't get me wrong, she's quite a villainess but doesn't come close to Ms. Blush. Fatima was a complete and total psychopath, so beautiful and so deadly, takes joy in killing people. She's much more vivid than Luciana Paluzzi (still liked her, not as much as Fatima) but alas Barbara Carerra (Fatima Blush) wins this round. *gasp*. The plots are identical, none is better than the other. The Bond girls, Domino Derval vs. Domino Petachi. I would have said quite a while ago that Ms. Derval surpassed Ms. Petachi in beauty and character but after rewatching NSNA, she's not too bad and her relationship with Largo isn't as creepy. Ms. Derval only edges out Ms. Petachi by a tad because she had more of a reason to hate Largo and to harpoon him. (i.e. the torture) Everyone rags on NSNA's score, I for one like it very much and it beats Thunderball there too. *gasp*. The underwater sequences in TB are BORING, they are too long and could have been edited down. NSNA has enough to whet the audiences appetite and keep the movie fresh. NSNA wins again. *gasp*. So there you go, NSNA is better than Thunderball in my opinion. Do you agree?

    No. I wouldn't say that Celi is a bad villian, though I agree with you about the relationship.
    He portrays Largo very well an I think he is a very good villian.
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    The worst flaws of "Never Say Never Again" include slow pacing, a terrible soundtrack, and Kim Basinger, who is okay to look at in general but not much fun to watch in this film. Klaus Maria Brandauer is wily and energetic as Largo, matched ably by Barbara Carerra, but I still prefer Adolpho Celli, who really does look like a rich prick from a more glamourous era. He's got the tan, the white hair, the polish, and the snakelike menace that people with a lot of money but not many scruples often have.

    Connery is fine in the film. His Bond is world-weary but still gameful, and I like the fact that his hair, though still touped, is cut short like a man of action in his 50s might have. Bernie Casey is okay as Leiter, though Edward Fox is a bit too puffy for me as "M." It's curious that this Bond actually acknowledged that he was not the "M" of old. Algernon was good as a "Q" substitute, but Moneypenny was almost as bad as Caroline Bliss (but not as annoying as Samantha Bond). I really wish Mr. Bean had not shown up, though I enjoy the bit where Bond is, um, finishing with his latest conquest and Atkinson is on the phone.

    Bond should never be forced to play videogames, especially lame ones.

    The best thing about "Never Say Never Again" is that Irvin Kirschner uses some sets, set ups, and lighting that resemble those of the 60s films, something that was unusual for the less imaginative and more "realistic" cinematography and production values of a lot of early to mid 80s movies. With a better soundtrack and tighter action, this film would probably break the Top 10 Bonds for me.

    Some other points of note: Von Sydow is good as Blofeld, Blush's demise is suitably wicked and satisfying, the opening sequence is solid, and the film was still better than "Octopussy."
  • BondlikeBondlike Posts: 26MI6 Agent
    Id have to say NSNA was a sub par Bond film, with or withtout the traditional bondian elements. Personally, i dont consider it "official" as it seems most fans dont--as very few listed it at all in their rankings on this site-- The only good thing, IMHO, was the return of Connery, but even that was marred by the fact that, although younger than Moore, he looked way too old in this film, and in some scenes truly resembles Mr Howl from Gilligans Island. (how come all the moore haters frequently point out his age, but rarely mention that connery was a bit long in the tooth in both this film and DAF?) I believe that the filmmakers had the ability to remake one of the greatest Bond films ever, Thunderball, and therefore could have come up with something much better.
  • VroomfondelVroomfondel Posts: 18MI6 Agent
    It's okay, but I'd prefer a more "official" feel to it than how it was done. Celli wins as Largo, but I like both Bloefelds. I think TB is better though.
  • 00640064 Somewhere out west...Posts: 1,083MI6 Agent
    Does the Flying Saucer look anything like the Disco Volante???
  • Willie GarvinWillie Garvin Posts: 1,412MI6 Agent
    0064 wrote:
    Does the Flying Saucer look anything like the Disco Volante???



    It's considerably larger.


    However,the name's still the same since "Flying Saucer" is the English version of the Italian "Disco Volante"(from both the Thunderball novel and motion picture).
  • JennyFlexFanJennyFlexFan Posts: 1,497MI6 Agent
    edited February 2006
    It's okay, but I'd prefer a more "official" feel to it than how it was done. Celli wins as Largo, but I like both Bloefelds. I think TB is better though.

    I couldn't say Ceili wins with me. He was not classy enough for Largo, plus how was his mistress ever attracted to him? He was old and fat!

    And to the "Flying Saucer"/"Disco Volante", I must say I liked Disco Volante better but since Largo seemed French-ish in this movie (though he's Romanian could we have a French version of Flying Saucer? It's too informal sounding as "Flying Saucer".

    Brandauer brought some eloquence and true class to the role of Largo. Ceili was more of a gangster when you can tell Brandauer's Largo is much more of a philanthropist and a psychopath, with the way he tries to sell off Domino and forces her to drop the statue, then admitting he's crazy!
  • Agent SidewinderAgent Sidewinder Posts: 223MI6 Agent
    edited February 2006
    I couldn't say Ceili wins with me. He was not classy enough for Largo, plus how was his mistress ever attracted to him? He was old and fat!

    And rich ;)
  • TraceyVTraceyV Posts: 29MI6 Agent
    edited February 2006
    To be honest I didn't think NSNA was such a bad movie. Yes it didn't have the Bond cliches but I think it did very well in the boundaries it had.
    I really liked the potrayal of Emilio Largo but the one in Thunderball wasn't bad either. I actually really love Thunderball so I should be totally sceptical towards NSNA.
    I loved Fatima Blush, she was beautiful, tough, and very stylish. In all perhaps the ultimate Bond girl, whether or not she is your favourite.

    As for the video scene. No it wasn't very Bond was it, however it did add to the film the fact that Emilio Largo was sure enough of himself to mock and taunt Bond like that. Think about it anyone else would have felt a lot more intimidated by Bond. It gave Largo a more sinister and twisted humour by owning a game like that, too.

    No I did not like Kim Basinger as a Bond girl at all, she did not have any character and her acting was atrocious. However, Fatima Blush made up for Kim's poor performance.

    One scene which annoyed me was the dance scene. I love dancing as much as the next girl and yes dancing with James Bond does sound peachy but excuse me. When in James Bond's busy life would he have found the time to learn to Tango that he could dance with a pro dancer???? Its a bit too random although great fun to watch.

    All in all, it was quite a good film. I liked Rowan Atkinson's stupid spy act immensly. And of course the famous quote in my siggie.

    Soz about the long answer
  • kezfacekezface Posts: 10MI6 Agent
    travey v....i completley agree with you excet for the tango bit...the tango scene was gloriouse
  • TraceyVTraceyV Posts: 29MI6 Agent
    Sis I never said I didn't like it, all I meant is that its not very bond
  • JennyFlexFanJennyFlexFan Posts: 1,497MI6 Agent
    I also admit that I love the tango scene.
  • TonyDPTonyDP Inside the MonolithPosts: 4,307MI6 Agent
    edited February 2006
    I can't say that I cared too much for this movie. First and foremost, the pace was way too slow and the action scenes were positively geriatric. The fight with Lippe went on forever and the final underwater battle with Largo was equally dull. The motorcycle / car chase was very pedestrian and the flipping car stunt had been done on hundreds of TV shows. The Domination video game battle was lame and hardly engaging. The horse chase appeared to happen in slow motion (and were those submarines firing photon torpedoes?) Nothing spectacular there.

    Michel Legrand's score was absolutely horrible mixing so many genres (pop, jazz, vocals, screaming brass) that the whole thing was an atonal cacophony. Parts of it sounded like unused snippets from his score for The Three Musketeers.

    Connery looked really old here, his toupee was very visible, and his scottish accent was really out of control. The various scenes of the young ladies leering at him were just plain comical.

    Barbara Carrera is one of the world's most beautiful women but she hammed it up way too much as Fatima Blush. Kim Basinger was attractive but utterly flat as Domino. Largo had no presence or menace at all. M and his assistant were your stereotypical clueless fops. I really don't know what Rowan Atkinson was doing. Max Von Sydow sounded like he had marbles in his mouth (and what's with the crystal skull with the zoom lens inside it). Felix Leiter was little more than a glorified doorman. Also, can somebody explain to me why, when Bond and Felix were swimming near the Flying Saucer and the underwater door opened, Bond got sucked in but Leiter got pushed out?

    The gadgets were very forgettable. The watch was just a cheapo model with a rubber strap and an animated green laser effect; the motorcycle's big feature was drop down bumpers (!!???) and Largo's underwater sleds were positively unimaginitive. The rocket packs were bulky and unweildy compared to the elegant jet pack from TB.

    It was interesting to see an alternate take on Bond and Algernon was a very good Q substitute, but for me NSNA was a pale ghost of the spectacle that was Thunderball and a really pointless remake.

    TonyDP
  • AlexAlex The Eastern SeaboardPosts: 2,694MI6 Agent
    I recently had the opportunity to catch this film on AMC's "Viva Bond", and thoroughly enjoyed it. Directly after Goldfinger's airing, comparing Connery's performance, the magic of Sir Sean had not been dulled. Brandauer's performance was excellent and he was the perfect adversary. I also loved Bassinger's beauty and sensitivity.

    Exhilirating and exquisite ladies, such as Prunella Gee's Patricia Fearing, Valerie Leon and Barbara Carrera block any disparaging words about the quality of the film. And the Pat Roach scene was as good as the Peter Franks elevator match a decade prior.

    I did think the final assault to reclaim the nuclear missile at the tears of Allah a bit anti climactic, but on the whole it was an interesting and valid attempt to bring Connery back and I regard it fondly.

    I find NSNA an enjoyable Bondian caper with a 20 year post Connery in excellent form, both physically and mentally.
  • JennyFlexFanJennyFlexFan Posts: 1,497MI6 Agent
    Alex wrote:
    I recently had the opportunity to catch this film on AMC's "Viva Bond", and thoroughly enjoyed it. Directly after Goldfinger's airing, comparing Connery's performance, the magic of Sir Sean had not been dulled. Brandauer's performance was excellent and he was the perfect adversary. I also loved Bassinger's beauty and sensitivity.

    Exhilirating and exquisite ladies, such as Prunella Gee's Patricia Fearing, Valerie Leon and Barbara Carrera block any disparaging words about the quality of the film. And the Pat Roach scene was as good as the Peter Franks elevator match a decade prior.

    I did think the final assault to reclaim the nuclear missile at the tears of Allah a bit anti climactic, but on the whole it was an interesting and valid attempt to bring Connery back and I regard it fondly.

    I find NSNA an enjoyable Bondian caper with a 20 year post Connery in excellent form, both physically and mentally.
    I must agree with Alex about the ending, I love NSNA but Largo's death and the retrieval seemed to easy and force. The twistedness Brandauer brought to Largo should've awarded him a more twisted death!
  • LoeffelholzLoeffelholz The United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
    I enjoyed NSNA more than a lot of people around here, but then I would naturally enjoy a Connery 'geezer' turn in the role more than, say, one of the more ubiquitous Moore 'geezer' outings...

    To me, Connery was always interesting as 007, and easy to watch---whether ascending (DN), at his peak (FRWL/GF/TB), when he was bored (YOLT) or just having fun (DAF, NSNA).

    NSNA may not be one of his best, but I do consider it a Bond film---it's in my collection, nestled safely between FYEO and OP---and IMHO, it was the best Bond film released in 1983...
    Check out my Amazon author page! Mark Loeffelholz
    "I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
    "Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
  • Cynjin SmythCynjin Smyth Rocky MountiansPosts: 98MI6 Agent
    Not sure if I would consider NSNA a true Bond film but, in a bit of trivia. I read (weather true or not) Connery after making DAF if he would make another Bond film. Connery said "No Never Again." So when he signed on for another, his wife said Never Say Never Again. That's how the title was chosen.

    "No more foreplay"
    Bond: You don't think I enjoyed what we did this evening, do you? What I did tonight was for King and country! You don't think it gave me any pleasure, do you?
    Fiona: But of course, I forgot your ego, Mr. Bond. James Bond, who only has to make love to a woman and she starts to hear heavenly choirs singing.
  • LoeffelholzLoeffelholz The United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
    Not sure if I would consider NSNA a true Bond film but, in a bit of trivia. I read (weather true or not) Connery after making DAF if he would make another Bond film. Connery said "No Never Again." So when he signed on for another, his wife said Never Say Never Again. That's how the title was chosen.

    That's exactly right---hence Connery's wink into camera at the end of the film---a perfect end to Sir Sean's exploits as 007. :007)

    It's not everyone's cup of tea, but there seems to be a Bond for everyone... {[]
    Check out my Amazon author page! Mark Loeffelholz
    "I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
    "Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
  • Jimmy BondJimmy Bond Posts: 324MI6 Agent
    I really feel out of all Bonds, NSNA had the best (the only, actually) send off moment. The wink in the camera, in my view, said that yes, James Bond WILL return, but its the last time we see him in Connery's form, andthe wink is just that - a farewell to fans and critics alike.

    There will never really be a Bond like Connery.
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    Jimmy Bond wrote:
    There will never really be a Bond like Connery.
    That is one thing I can certainly agree with. ;)
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • Pierce_BrosnanPierce_Brosnan Posts: 329MI6 Agent
    taity wrote:
    Hmmm, as for me...

    I dont deem it a proper Bond. I have the basic reasons - no gun barrel, no james Bond theme. But theres something else wrong with the movie. To me it drags alot and for some reason it doesnt have the same classy feel that the EON movies have. It seems almost to be aiming at a lower target audience. The witty one liners seem to lack something (wit perhaps) and the plot is a straight out simple "you know the villian, you know the plot - nothing's gonna suprise you"

    I would agree wiht this, but add that Sean Connery looking SO old just made the experience worse.
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