LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
I guess I'd better get around to seeing T3 at some point...
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I guess I'd better get around to seeing T3 at some point...
You should definitely check it out. Its a very entertaining film and well worth your time, I think. There are some good action sequences, Arnold really takes some risks with the role, it isn't as pretentious or self-conscious as T2, and it's a much more well paced film with a tight plot and quick running time. And if that isn't enough to convince you, the fact that Dan Same doesn't care for it should be further proof that its a good movie. {:)
As to Terminator: Salvation, I really haven't been following production too closely. I know the die-hard fanboys are upset that it isn't James Cameron at the helm (they gave Jonathan Mostow similar grief for T3). I don't think Cameron's presence is a requirement to make a good film. More worrisome are some of the creative decisions McG has brought to the table and his comments that the ending of the film will be very divisive for fans. That concerns me because...
there was a rumor a while ago that the film would end with John Connor dieing and his skin being grafted onto a terminator sympathetic to the resistance so that the remaining humans don't lose heart in their battle against the machines.
...if that is in fact what happens, it could kill the franchise right then and there as I really don't think fans would accept such an ending, largely because it would not appear to fit in with James Cameron's vision of the series.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
edited April 2009
Well, I've no opposition to polarizing elements...
[dodges a rotten cabbage thrown at the stage]
...but on the other hand, I've been worried since the end of T2 that things had somewhat played out. Perhaps T3 will prove me wrong, but who knows how this fourth film will go. It seems an interesting concept, and has great potential...but there's a reason some franchises don't last 47 years.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Arnold Schwarzenegger has confirmed the likelihood that he will make a cameo appearance in the new film. He didn't have time to film any live-action scenes, but his face is to be used in one scene of the film.
As to Terminator: Salvation, I really haven't been following production too closely. I know the die-hard fanboys are upset that it isn't James Cameron at the helm (they gave Jonathan Mostow similar grief for T3). I don't think Cameron's presence is a requirement to make a good film.
I don't know whether to call myself a die-fard fanboy (I'm certainly a die-hard fan but I don't attend any Terminator coventions, should there be any ) but I'm of two minds about Cameron. I love him and I will forever be thankful to him for many of the films that he has made, particularly the two Terminators, but I don't think that the Terminator films are all that reliant upon one man's vision, unlike the Star Wars films for example. The Terminator TV show (or at least the first season) was great IMO and he didn't have anything to do with that. That said, I certainly would feel better if he was involved, even as a writer rather than as director.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Arnold Schwarzenegger has confirmed the likelihood that he will make a cameo appearance in the new film. He didn't have time to film any live-action scenes, but his face is to be used in one scene of the film.
{[] Great news. I don't really have any problem with Arnie not having more than a cameo in Terminator: Salvation (it would be illogical if he did, and I also consider it to be separate in a way to his trilogy) but I am delighted that he will at least be appearing. It's been a while since I saw him on the big screen, and a cameo appearance in Terminator: Salvation is not only highly appropiate, but IMO is not a bad thing at all.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
The Terminator TV show (or at least the first season) was great IMO and he didn't have anything to do with that.
Just watched the penultimate episode. I can't believe they are cancelling this show. And I can't believe Garret Dillahunt and a wee girl took Andy Stewart's jaunty hit 'Donald, Where's Your Trooser's' and sang the most melancholy version. It was unnerving. But I love this show. I suspect the film won't mean that much to me, although it might make Sam Worthington a star.
Terminator 4 opens this weekend and I will be there. I have no idea what to expect, the trailer has left me somewhat cold, with the stark look and downbeat vibe. But, I am going anyway, maybe I will be surprised.
Terminator 4 opens this weekend and I will be there. I have no idea what to expect, the trailer has left me somewhat cold, with the stark look and downbeat vibe. But, I am going anyway, maybe I will be surprised.
My brother and I will also hopefully be catching T:S this weekend. Like you, we really haven't followed production of this one very closely so if nothing else the experience will be a fresh one.
By the way Barry, you did go see Star Trek...riiiight? :v (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
Terminator 4 opens this weekend and I will be there. I have no idea what to expect, the trailer has left me somewhat cold, with the stark look and downbeat vibe. But, I am going anyway, maybe I will be surprised.
I'm kind of ambivalent about his one---although it looks like a good action movie. I haven't seen T3 yet, and have kind of lost interest in the whole Terminator thing since
Arnie turned nice in T2---spoiler tag inserted!!!!! 8-)
...a film which, for my money, is distinctly inferior to the classic original film, despite the flashy FX and Linda Hamilton's sexy muscle tone :x
The fact that this one is a prequel works in its favour as far as I'm concerned; I might have a look.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Dan Same will probably blow a gasket when he reads this, but I've always thought T2 was overrated as well. You really should try to catch T3 at some point; the film is something of a throwback to the first one in that once the principals are all introduced, it essentially becomes one long chase until the big revelation at the end.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
T2 was good popcorn fun, but I've always thought the final scene/shot of the original film was impossible to improve upon. Sequels in such a situation smack of typical Hollywood cannibalism; too bad, really, but it's a grand tradition that stretches back to classic fun like Frankenstein Meets The Wolf Man, so I guess I shouldn't complain B-)
I'll put T3 in my Netflix queue.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
T3 was awful. Here's how they should have structured the characters and plot:
1. There should have been 3 Terminators, one good one (Arnie) and 2 bad ones, a male and female couple.
2. The plot would go like this:
We open on a big party in a flash apartment somewhere in LA where John Connor is having a great time without a care in the world. John is a successful computer geek living the high life but none of the women who flock around him interest him greatly. Interspersed with the party scenes would be the scenes where the Terminators arrive.
a) Arnie materialises and with him a naked woman crippled by the trip through time. Her body is scarred - she is beautiful but tough. She is Kate Brewster. Like Reese (John's father from T1) she has grown up in the ruins of the future.
b) The two bad terminators materialise - they are separated briefly but find each other by knocking down some walls etc. They go to a public phone and find John Connor's name listed in the phone book and head off to kill him.
They break into Johns apartment and find it empty. They trigger a secret alarm which activates a spy cam. The apartment is a decoy. At the party Johns phone rings - on the screen he can see the terminators in the decoy apartment. He laughs at their stupidity. The terminators spot the spy cam and using their future-tech plug in and trace the spy cam to its source. They head off to find John.
Arnie and kate find John first and kate immediately grabs Johns phone and smashes it as the bad Terminators are using it to locate him. She gives him an earful and tells him not to be so stupid. Despite being berated by her John starts to fall in love with her.
The rest of the movie can play out much the same but instead of Kate being annoying and whinging she trains John and helps him toughen up for the future that she know is coming.
Arnie is more of a protector and less brutal - he obeys Kate so John has no power over him this time.
At the end Kate has to say goodbye to Arnie - the only time that she gets tearful as the robot has saved her life many times. John consoles her. Kate has a thing about Arnie as a kind of substitute man because he cant be destroyed easily - she lost her first partner in the war of the machines and is afraid to love again.
IMO, T2 is a classic and the best of the Terminator series. It has some absolute classic scenes and great one liners, like "come with me if you want to live". I enjoyed T3, but wasn't wowed by Nick Stahl's performance as John Connor. John Connor in T2 is a cocky, confident young teenager, John Connor in T3 is a nervous, worried young man. It will be interesting to see how Christian Bale plays Connor, as Tony mentions a few pages back on this thread, he seems to have the gruff Batman voice going for this film, not sure if that will work, but we will see.
Early reviews for T4 are in, and it isn't pretty. I believe the film is at about 25% on Rotten Tomatoes. As was my fear, most reviewers have stated the movie is one long action set piece, with little story and no heart. I didn't realize that the story was written by the same team that wrote Catwoman, which would explain the lack of story. On a positive note, some of the stunt work was noted as being impressive.
Early reviews for T4 are in, and it isn't pretty. I believe the film is at about 25% on Rotten Tomatoes. As was my fear, most reviewers have stated the movie is one long action set piece, with little story and no heart. I didn't realize that the story was written by the same team that wrote Catwoman, which would explain the lack of story. On a positive note, some of the stunt work was noted as being impressive.
I haven't seen the film yet, but on a movie like this I would NEVER go by what critics say, especially since they traditionally love to savage summer blockbuster films. In reading Roger Ebert's review for example he was clearly tired of the franchise as a whole and hardly discusses the movie he's ostensibly reviewing, going so far as to head off people who will call him on the many facts he seems to already know he got wrong by saying that he simply doesn't care. If a critic doesn't care enough to at least take the time to pay attention to the movie he's supposed to be reviewing then I don't see any reason waste my time with him either and I won't ever be reading his reviews again (he did the same thing with Star Trek and the Trekkies really laid into him). I think another source of the negative word of mouth is the Cameron-wankers who still can't deal with the fact that someone else is making these movies. Terminator 3 got a lot of the same flack and I found that to be an entertaining, worthwhile movie. Wolverine was similarly savaged a few weeks ago, yet most people who've seen it (including myself, my brother and some other AJB members) enjoyed it. I would similarly hesitate to write T:S off until I can see it for myself.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
I haven't seen the film yet, but on a movie like this I would NEVER go by what critics say, especially since they traditionally love to savage summer blockbuster films.
Yeah, over the last few years or so I started losing faith in their influence to sway the flock in one direction or the other. If I want to see it then I will. I remember when critics raped The Invasion a couple of summers ago but my son and I loved it. No, it wasn't superb but we remained entertained; it was hardly worth the poor reviews it received.
I love all of the Terminator films and T2 was fantastic IMO. Now I will admit that my son and I went to see T3 twice; while it may not hold a candle to the first two, depending on whom you ask, it's damn good popcorn fare. We love it.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Now I will admit that my son and I went to see T3 twice; while it may not hold a candle to the first two, depending on whom you ask, it's damn good popcorn fare. We love it.
T3 was a ton of fun and I find it far more well paced and watchable than T2. No need to be defensive about liking it at all; I've unapologetically said on many occasions that its my favorite Terminator film even though the fanboys always rag on it. That's why I won't give up on Terminator: Salvation until I've seen it myself. It may very well suck, but I'll be the judge of whether its worthwhile for me or not.
In reading Roger Ebert's review for example he was clearly tired of the franchise as a whole and hardly discusses the movie he's ostensibly reviewing, going so far as to head off people who will call him on the many facts he seems to already know he got wrong by saying that he simply doesn't care.
I hate to say it, but as much as I respect Ebert's past work and admire his courageous battle against cancer, I think he's lost it. Most of his reviews do have that "Who cares?" tone now, and he's often sloppy. In his recent review of Star Trek he asked how come, if people can beam themselves to other locations, a team had to get into space suits and physically travel to the Romulan drill--even though it's clearly explained in the film that the transporter beam has been jammed! Perhaps it's time he just watched the movies and stopped critiquing them.
I think another source of the negative word of mouth is the Cameron-wankers who still can't deal with the fact that someone else is making these movies.
That's quite unfair, and to be honest, I expect more from you. Yes, there are people who believe that Cameron should be making T4 but to call them wankers? Although I don't believe that it is necessary that Cameron direct every Terminator film (he had nothing to do with the TV show which I loved), I do think that T3 would have been a heck of a lot better if he was involved. Similarly, my preference was always that he dould direct Salvation. Obviously I'm not the most vocal Terminator fanboy in the world, but to call passionate Cameron fans wankers is enormously harsh, and dare I say it hyppocritical.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Perhaps it's time he just watched the movies and stopped critiquing them.
I didn't pay complete attention to Ebert's review for fear of spoilers, but I was quite shocked that he still hasn't seen the first Terminator film. I find it astonishing as I would describe The Terminator as an essential film. Obviously Ebert hasn't seen every film, great or otherwise, ever made, but to not see The Terminator as a film critic for over 40 years is IMO the equivalent of a literature critic for over 40 years having never read a single Sherlock Holmes story.
Generally speaking, however, I do think he is a brilliant critic, although he has sometimes gotten things completely wrong.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
There are some people that are completely closed-minded on the subject and simply refuse to give the film a chance simply because Cameron isn't involved. Don't take my word for it, just read some of the talk-backs on AICN and other sites. Likewise with X-Men, there are misguided souls who will not watch a mutant movie unless Singer directs. Again, just peruse some of the hardcord fan boards. I've also run across more than a few irate Trekkies who are spitting venom over the new movie for the most inconsequential of reasons.
So no Dan, I don't think the term (which I did not coin, BTW) is hypocritical at all. It is an unfortunately all too accurate description for some of the more extreme corners of fandom and it does exist.
There are some people that are completely closed-minded on the subject and simply refuse to give the film a chance simply because Cameron isn't involved. Don't take my word for it, just read some of the talk-backs on AICN and other sites. Likewise with X-Men, there are misguided souls who will not watch a mutant movie unless Singer directs. Again, just peruse some of the hardcord fan boards. I've also run across more than a few misguided Trekkies who are spitting venom over the new movie for the most inconsequential of reasons.
So no Dan, I don't think the term (which I did not coin, BTW) is hypocritical at all. It is an unfortunately all too accurate description for some of the more extreme corners of fandom and it does exist.
I hadn't realised that. Well, I take it back then. Yeh, some of the fans are not particularly impressive. They remind me of *Richmond Tigers fans in fact. )
*The Richmond Tigers are an Australian Football club, and its fans have been known to turn on the club; one fan spit at the coach while another dumped manure outside club headquarters.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
IMO, T2 is a classic and the best of the Terminator series. It has some absolute classic scenes and great one liners, like "come with me if you want to live". I enjoyed T3, but wasn't wowed by Nick Stahl's performance as John Connor. John Connor in T2 is a cocky, confident young teenager, John Connor in T3 is a nervous, worried young man. It will be interesting to see how Christian Bale plays Connor, as Tony mentions a few pages back on this thread, he seems to have the gruff Batman voice going for this film, not sure if that will work, but we will see.
{[] {[] Finally someone who appreciates T2 for the masterpiece that it is.
Personally, I think that the first film is probably the best, but not by much, although from an entertainment point of view, the second film is probably my favourite. Nonetheless, I consider both to be cinematic masterpieces, and along with Total Recall, two of Arnie's three great masterpieces.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I don't know how anyone can say T3 is the best of trilogy. The characters are awful (a pathetic John Connor, a whinging Kate Brewster and a boring Arnie Terminator) and the characters are what make the story work or not. They also killed off Sarah Connor with leukemia (!), which was really dumb.
See my previous post in this thread about a better plot and more interesting character development.
I don't know how anyone can say T3 is the best of trilogy. The characters are awful (a pathetic John Connor, a whinging Kate Brewster and a boring Arnie Terminator) and the characters are what make the story work or not. They also killed off Sarah Connor with leukemia (!), which was really dumb.
Everyone has different tastes and T2 just doesn't dovetail with mine too well:
- Eddie Furlong came across as a whiny, effeminate little punk, with a grating, high-pitched voice that I absolutely could not stand. This was supposed to be the future savior of mankind? Nick Stahl played John as conflicted - who wouldn't be knowing that he would have to carry such a burden - but when push came to shove, he always rose to the occasion.
- Sarah Connor was turned into a one beat, foul-mouthed, white trash biker chick - with seemingly every other word out of her mouth being 4 letters long and a perpetual chip on her shoulder. The whole subplot where she was locked up in the asylum was frankly unpleasant to watch and the lewd actions of the guards were in downright bad taste.
- As for Arnold, in T2 he was little more than John's personal toy who could only do what he was told and was barely capable of any independent thoughts of his own. Compare that with T3 where his character actually overcomes his own programming to make morally correct choices and drives the action, rather than following along and largely providing muscle. I thought it actually pretty brave of Arnold to occasionally poke fun at his own character within the film, it showed that he didn't take the whole thing too seriously. After all, it is only a movie.
- Pacing-wise, T2 was overblown, with too long a running time and long stretches of exposition between the action sequences. T3 was more well-paced to me, taking place almost in real-time and very single-minded about its plot and getting to its final resolution (very similar to the first movie in terms of that single minded approach actually).
Again, this is all my opinion and I freely admit to not always having the most conventional tastes. Still, given my sensibilities that's the way I see things.
Eddie Furlong came across as a whiny, effeminate little punk, with a grating, high-pitched voice that I absolutely could not stand. This was supposed to be the future savior of mankind? Nick Stahl played John as conflicted - who wouldn't be knowing that he would have to carry such a burden - but when push came to shove, he always rose to the occasion.
I thought he was OK in the role - they went for smart kid (effeminate?) as opposed to tough kid. He was well drawn considering he was fostered and had been raised by a "mad" mother so the punkiness was good. And John was conflicted and his punkiness (rebellion) was how this was demonstrated. Robbing ATMs, not caring about anyone because he felt betrayed by his mother.
Sarah Connor was turned into a one beat, foul-mouthed, white trash biker chick - with seemingly every other word out of her mouth being 4 letters long and a perpetual chip on her shoulder. The whole subplot where she was locked up in the asylum was frankly unpleasant to watch and the lewd actions of the guards were in downright bad taste.
Again Sarah was well developed from T1 as she had spent the intervening time getting tough and streetwise for what she knew was coming. The asylum stuff was in context and totally appropriate.
As for Arnold, in T2 he was little more than John's personal toy who could only do what he was told and was barely capable of any independent thoughts of his own. Compare that with T3 where his character actually overcomes his own programming to make morally correct choices and drives the action, rather than following along and largely providing muscle. I thought it actually pretty brave of Arnold to occasionally poke fun at his own character within the film, it showed that he didn't take the whole thing too seriously. After all, it is only a movie.
John's relationship with Arnie is "David and Goliath get together" and is a great springboard for the movie's comedy and its pathos at the end. John's "effeminate" nature as you call it is a deliberate counterpoint to Arnie's tough guy "straightness" and works well.
- Pacing-wise, T2 was overblown, with too long a running time and long stretches of exposition between the action sequences. T3 was more well-paced to me, taking place almost in real-time and very single-minded about its plot and getting to its final resolution (very similar to the first movie in terms of that single minded approach actually).
Kate's abduction and having to come to terms with her father's death and in general the weird conflict between grief and action in T3 are one of its main failings. It's just not enjoyable watching Kate get pushed around by Arnie - that was what made me uncomfortable. Not to mention the female Terminator licking the blood stained rags in the vet and identifying John to the point that she almost orgasmed. Creepy.
Saw the movie last night and I definitely enjoyed it, although as the film sinks in I feel like something was missing. I enjoyed the film while watching it and even smiled during some of the homage scenes. The action scenes are well shot, the director and cinematographer should be commended for the look of the film, which while stark was still interesting, and I thought all the actors did a fine job. I would specifically mention Bryce Dallas Howard, who plays John Connor's wife Katie, although her scenes were limited, her face and eyes were very expressive and I felt she brought some warmth to a film that needed a little. I definitely diasgree with the critics who thought the film lacked a story, as I found the story to be compelling.
Although I have no specific complaint about the film, I do think a few scenes where we see the burden John Connor carries being the person who must save humanity from the machines may have helped the audience identify with him more. Having said that, I think the scens where we see John listening to his mother's tapes were effective.
All in all I enjoyed the movie and am glad I went. I recommend the film to Terminator fans as I think it achieved its goal of setting up the next stage of the story.
I think another source of the negative word of mouth is the Cameron-wankers who still can't deal with the fact that someone else is making these movies.
That's quite unfair, and to be honest, I expect more from you. Yes, there are people who believe that Cameron should be making T4 but to call them wankers?
Comments
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
You should definitely check it out. Its a very entertaining film and well worth your time, I think. There are some good action sequences, Arnold really takes some risks with the role, it isn't as pretentious or self-conscious as T2, and it's a much more well paced film with a tight plot and quick running time. And if that isn't enough to convince you, the fact that Dan Same doesn't care for it should be further proof that its a good movie. {:)
As to Terminator: Salvation, I really haven't been following production too closely. I know the die-hard fanboys are upset that it isn't James Cameron at the helm (they gave Jonathan Mostow similar grief for T3). I don't think Cameron's presence is a requirement to make a good film. More worrisome are some of the creative decisions McG has brought to the table and his comments that the ending of the film will be very divisive for fans. That concerns me because...
...if that is in fact what happens, it could kill the franchise right then and there as I really don't think fans would accept such an ending, largely because it would not appear to fit in with James Cameron's vision of the series.
[dodges a rotten cabbage thrown at the stage]
...but on the other hand, I've been worried since the end of T2 that things had somewhat played out. Perhaps T3 will prove me wrong, but who knows how this fourth film will go. It seems an interesting concept, and has great potential...but there's a reason some franchises don't last 47 years.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I don't know whether to call myself a die-fard fanboy (I'm certainly a die-hard fan but I don't attend any Terminator coventions, should there be any
Just watched the penultimate episode. I can't believe they are cancelling this show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0irP4w0itdM&NR=1
Just gives you the chills. This is normally a jaunty comedy number sang for laughs.
My brother and I will also hopefully be catching T:S this weekend. Like you, we really haven't followed production of this one very closely so if nothing else the experience will be a fresh one.
By the way Barry, you did go see Star Trek...riiiight? :v (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
I'm kind of ambivalent about his one---although it looks like a good action movie. I haven't seen T3 yet, and have kind of lost interest in the whole Terminator thing since
The fact that this one is a prequel works in its favour as far as I'm concerned; I might have a look.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I'll put T3 in my Netflix queue.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
1. There should have been 3 Terminators, one good one (Arnie) and 2 bad ones, a male and female couple.
2. The plot would go like this:
We open on a big party in a flash apartment somewhere in LA where John Connor is having a great time without a care in the world. John is a successful computer geek living the high life but none of the women who flock around him interest him greatly. Interspersed with the party scenes would be the scenes where the Terminators arrive.
a) Arnie materialises and with him a naked woman crippled by the trip through time. Her body is scarred - she is beautiful but tough. She is Kate Brewster. Like Reese (John's father from T1) she has grown up in the ruins of the future.
b) The two bad terminators materialise - they are separated briefly but find each other by knocking down some walls etc. They go to a public phone and find John Connor's name listed in the phone book and head off to kill him.
They break into Johns apartment and find it empty. They trigger a secret alarm which activates a spy cam. The apartment is a decoy. At the party Johns phone rings - on the screen he can see the terminators in the decoy apartment. He laughs at their stupidity. The terminators spot the spy cam and using their future-tech plug in and trace the spy cam to its source. They head off to find John.
Arnie and kate find John first and kate immediately grabs Johns phone and smashes it as the bad Terminators are using it to locate him. She gives him an earful and tells him not to be so stupid. Despite being berated by her John starts to fall in love with her.
The rest of the movie can play out much the same but instead of Kate being annoying and whinging she trains John and helps him toughen up for the future that she know is coming.
Arnie is more of a protector and less brutal - he obeys Kate so John has no power over him this time.
At the end Kate has to say goodbye to Arnie - the only time that she gets tearful as the robot has saved her life many times. John consoles her. Kate has a thing about Arnie as a kind of substitute man because he cant be destroyed easily - she lost her first partner in the war of the machines and is afraid to love again.
What do you think?
I haven't seen the film yet, but on a movie like this I would NEVER go by what critics say, especially since they traditionally love to savage summer blockbuster films. In reading Roger Ebert's review for example he was clearly tired of the franchise as a whole and hardly discusses the movie he's ostensibly reviewing, going so far as to head off people who will call him on the many facts he seems to already know he got wrong by saying that he simply doesn't care. If a critic doesn't care enough to at least take the time to pay attention to the movie he's supposed to be reviewing then I don't see any reason waste my time with him either and I won't ever be reading his reviews again (he did the same thing with Star Trek and the Trekkies really laid into him). I think another source of the negative word of mouth is the Cameron-wankers who still can't deal with the fact that someone else is making these movies. Terminator 3 got a lot of the same flack and I found that to be an entertaining, worthwhile movie. Wolverine was similarly savaged a few weeks ago, yet most people who've seen it (including myself, my brother and some other AJB members) enjoyed it. I would similarly hesitate to write T:S off until I can see it for myself.
Yeah, over the last few years or so I started losing faith in their influence to sway the flock in one direction or the other. If I want to see it then I will. I remember when critics raped The Invasion a couple of summers ago but my son and I loved it. No, it wasn't superb but we remained entertained; it was hardly worth the poor reviews it received.
I love all of the Terminator films and T2 was fantastic IMO. Now I will admit that my son and I went to see T3 twice; while it may not hold a candle to the first two, depending on whom you ask, it's damn good popcorn fare. We love it.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
T3 was a ton of fun and I find it far more well paced and watchable than T2. No need to be defensive about liking it at all; I've unapologetically said on many occasions that its my favorite Terminator film even though the fanboys always rag on it. That's why I won't give up on Terminator: Salvation until I've seen it myself. It may very well suck, but I'll be the judge of whether its worthwhile for me or not.
I hate to say it, but as much as I respect Ebert's past work and admire his courageous battle against cancer, I think he's lost it. Most of his reviews do have that "Who cares?" tone now, and he's often sloppy. In his recent review of Star Trek he asked how come, if people can beam themselves to other locations, a team had to get into space suits and physically travel to the Romulan drill--even though it's clearly explained in the film that the transporter beam has been jammed! Perhaps it's time he just watched the movies and stopped critiquing them.
Generally speaking, however, I do think he is a brilliant critic, although he has sometimes gotten things completely wrong.
So no Dan, I don't think the term (which I did not coin, BTW) is hypocritical at all. It is an unfortunately all too accurate description for some of the more extreme corners of fandom and it does exist.
*The Richmond Tigers are an Australian Football club, and its fans have been known to turn on the club; one fan spit at the coach while another dumped manure outside club headquarters.
Personally, I think that the first film is probably the best, but not by much, although from an entertainment point of view, the second film is probably my favourite. Nonetheless, I consider both to be cinematic masterpieces, and along with Total Recall, two of Arnie's three great masterpieces.
See my previous post in this thread about a better plot and more interesting character development.
Everyone has different tastes and T2 just doesn't dovetail with mine too well:
- Eddie Furlong came across as a whiny, effeminate little punk, with a grating, high-pitched voice that I absolutely could not stand. This was supposed to be the future savior of mankind? Nick Stahl played John as conflicted - who wouldn't be knowing that he would have to carry such a burden - but when push came to shove, he always rose to the occasion.
- Sarah Connor was turned into a one beat, foul-mouthed, white trash biker chick - with seemingly every other word out of her mouth being 4 letters long and a perpetual chip on her shoulder. The whole subplot where she was locked up in the asylum was frankly unpleasant to watch and the lewd actions of the guards were in downright bad taste.
- As for Arnold, in T2 he was little more than John's personal toy who could only do what he was told and was barely capable of any independent thoughts of his own. Compare that with T3 where his character actually overcomes his own programming to make morally correct choices and drives the action, rather than following along and largely providing muscle. I thought it actually pretty brave of Arnold to occasionally poke fun at his own character within the film, it showed that he didn't take the whole thing too seriously. After all, it is only a movie.
- Pacing-wise, T2 was overblown, with too long a running time and long stretches of exposition between the action sequences. T3 was more well-paced to me, taking place almost in real-time and very single-minded about its plot and getting to its final resolution (very similar to the first movie in terms of that single minded approach actually).
Again, this is all my opinion and I freely admit to not always having the most conventional tastes. Still, given my sensibilities that's the way I see things.
I thought he was OK in the role - they went for smart kid (effeminate?) as opposed to tough kid. He was well drawn considering he was fostered and had been raised by a "mad" mother so the punkiness was good. And John was conflicted and his punkiness (rebellion) was how this was demonstrated. Robbing ATMs, not caring about anyone because he felt betrayed by his mother.
Again Sarah was well developed from T1 as she had spent the intervening time getting tough and streetwise for what she knew was coming. The asylum stuff was in context and totally appropriate.
John's relationship with Arnie is "David and Goliath get together" and is a great springboard for the movie's comedy and its pathos at the end. John's "effeminate" nature as you call it is a deliberate counterpoint to Arnie's tough guy "straightness" and works well.
Kate's abduction and having to come to terms with her father's death and in general the weird conflict between grief and action in T3 are one of its main failings. It's just not enjoyable watching Kate get pushed around by Arnie - that was what made me uncomfortable. Not to mention the female Terminator licking the blood stained rags in the vet and identifying John to the point that she almost orgasmed. Creepy.
Although I have no specific complaint about the film, I do think a few scenes where we see the burden John Connor carries being the person who must save humanity from the machines may have helped the audience identify with him more. Having said that, I think the scens where we see John listening to his mother's tapes were effective.
All in all I enjoyed the movie and am glad I went. I recommend the film to Terminator fans as I think it achieved its goal of setting up the next stage of the story.
Context can legitimise anything.
Roger Moore 1927-2017