Terrorism and James Bond

According to the producers, one of the reasons for the reboot and more serious tone of CR was to reflect contemporary reality. I'm wondering how far AJB members feel Eon should go with that reality. Should Eon ignore the dominant source of terrorism today -- Middle Eastern extremism -- much as the films by and large ignored Communism, Bond's nemesis in the novels? Do they use an apolitical SPECTRE-like organization as a stand-in, or should they risk political incorrectness and it tackle it head on?

I raise this question because of another thread in which LeChiffre's value as a villain is debated. Some found him weaker than other Bond enemies. I think that one of the reasons for this is we were never shown the result of his handiwork: a terrorist attack financed through LeChiffre. But in order to show a terrorist attack, I think you would almost have to identify the terrorist and the reason for the action. That might not be politically palatable in some quarters.

So what do you think?

Comments

  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Well that's very correct hh, I mean, they weren't terrorists in any ideological sense. I'm not sure we saw them even threaten to do anything that bad like killing people. It seemed just money making for its own sense, but if that's so, how come the guy at the airport was a suicide bomber, as someone posted in reply to my thread?

    Mind you, Spectre weren't terrorists in that sense either, they were after the money primarily, not some Al Quaida plot. But they seemed more ideological thanks to their otherwordly heads eg No, Klebb, Blofeld.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • IanAndOutIanAndOut RoselandPosts: 33MI6 Agent
    edited December 2006
    Well that's very correct hh, I mean, they weren't terrorists in any ideological sense. I'm not sure we saw them even threaten to do anything that bad like killing people. It seemed just money making for its own sense, but if that's so, how come the guy at the airport was a suicide bomber, as someone posted in reply to my thread?

    I don't think he was planning on killing himself. He placed the bomb on the truck and his cell phone was the detonator. So I thought that if Bond hadn't interfered he would have just parked the bomb-truck near the plane and then hit the detonator when he was safly away.
  • LoeffelholzLoeffelholz The United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
    edited December 2006
    I realize that I hold an extreme minority view on this issue...but I say: **** Al Qaeda and the real-life terrorists. I'd LOVE to see 007 go up against radical Islam---put an actor in a get-up which makes him look exactly like Osama Bin Laden...and have Bond KICK HIS ASS. IMRO, you could have Bond's Darko Kerim-like ally of the piece be a Muslim who is angered by the corruption of his religion, thus taking at least a bit of the curse off it...

    Just think about it---James Bond, by his very existence, along with his scantily-clad female companions and decadent, infidel-Western ways---is already enough to anger these lunatics. I'm franky sick of being Politically Correct in order to placate that particular crowd. They already hate us for who we are and how we live; it's not like we're going to actually change that by making our Bond villains only about money.

    Of course, this won't happen, so everyone can relax. But I think it ought to.
    Check out my Amazon author page! Mark Loeffelholz
    "I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
    "Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
  • Pierce Brosnan335Pierce Brosnan335 Posts: 46MI6 Agent
    Id think that meake a very intriquing bond movie. Id watch it. I mean why not deal with the issues of today. The other bond films did when the enemy was always the U.S.S.R
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    I tend to agree, though without getting into a flame war, some of the Christian fundamentalists can be a bit scary, what with talk of the apocopalypse and so on...

    No it won't happen, but you do have a problem where Craig's gritty Bond doesn't have any real villains to get stuck into, they're all a bit anaemic.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond +++ Classified +++Posts: 569MI6 Agent
    I realize that I hold an extreme minority view on this issue...but I say: **** Al Qaeda and the real-life terrorists. I'd LOVE to see 007 go up against radical Islam---put an actor in a get-up which makes him look exactly like Osama Bin Laden...and have Bond KICK HIS ASS. IMRO, you could have Bond's Darko Kerim-like ally of the piece be a Muslim who is angered by the corruption of his religion, thus taking at least a bit of the curse off it...

    Just think about it---James Bond, by his very existence, along with his scantily-clad female companions and decadent, infidel-Western ways---is already enough to anger these lunatics. I'm franky sick of being Politically Correct in order to placate that particular crowd. They already hate us for who we are and how we live; it's not like we're going to actually change that by making our Bond villains only about money.

    Of course, this won't happen, so everyone can relax. But I think it ought to.

    We it was bit like that with "True Lies"
    The name's Bond_James_Bond
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    True, but that was when the whole thing was jokier, being pre 9/11 of course. Now it's a hot potato. It only takes some terrorist outrage to coincide with your release as with that Arnie film Collateral Damage, and you could hit the box office badly.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • highhopeshighhopes Posts: 1,358MI6 Agent
    Good points, all.

    My own feeling is that if terrorism is going to be Bond's nemesis -- and it only seems logical that it should be -- I think Eon is going to have to bite the bullet at some point and stop being politically correct about it.

    Some of you may have read and been a bit outraged at the Sunday Times review in which the writer suggested it was racist to have Bond rampage through an African embassy. What if the people at the embassy had been white, he asked? I thought the writer was being silly. But the review did get me to thinking: if the producers were reluctant to portray a fictional Middle Eastern embassy for fear of stereotyping people of that region as terrorists, what did they think picking a fictional African embassy would do to the image of people of that region? I guess they would argue that no one really associates Africans with terrorism, so it didn't hurt. But it also doesn't ring true. It's like watching a film in which the bad guys are essentially Nazis, but played by Pacific Islanders.

    I don't think it would have stereotyped Middle Eastern people to have the events of CR reference a fictional Middle Eastern country. I think most people recognize the difference between everyday Muslims and fanatics like OBL, just as they understand the difference between an everyday Christian and those who murder doctors who perform abortions, for example. Granted, some will not -- but these are people who are already beyond common sense. Do we really have to consider the film's effect on them?

    Like some of you, I wish Eon would simply recognize today's reality and not try to disguise that reality with unconvincing substitutes.
  • s96024s96024 Posts: 1,519MI6 Agent
    This is such a difficult issue, and lots of programs try and steer away from the terrorism in the form it is nowadays, especially when it comes to anything related to that most forbidden of words "muslim" or "islam" or anything related. I think if anything it will become more unnaceptable and more contencious in the future as the problem inevitably gets worse. I think films and programs of the day should reflect the problems of the day not pussy foot around the issues. Don't want to start ranting so that's me out.;)
  • lavabubblelavabubble Posts: 229MI6 Agent
    I don't think that a major movie house will ever tackle directly the subject of Middle Eastern terrorism and its ramifications on the West, at least as perceived by society as a whole. It could happen but I suspect not for a great many years. I think it's a topic on the fine line between cinematic genius and disaster that few dare to tread.

    I do think that for Bond they may take the bones of the situation and move it into a more politically correct setting, perhaps the pursuance of Arlington Road type terrorists or some sort of terror cell in Eastern Europe with a likeness to ETA.
  • Sir Hillary BraySir Hillary Bray College of ArmsPosts: 2,174MI6 Agent
    I don't view fictitious villains or terrorist organizations as necessarily meaning the filmmakers are pussy-footing or being politically correct. The desire to offend as few people as possible is definitely a part of it, but it's more than that. The risk of anchoring stories in the real world of the day is that they're more likely to be dated, in some cases absurdly so. Witness the cute and cuddly mujahaddin presented in TLD, who of course morphed into the Taliban. I personally don't need Bond fighting Al-Qaeda or any other real-world group -- fictional baddies are my preference.
    Hilly...you old devil!
  • NightshooterNightshooter In bed with SolitairePosts: 2,917MI6 Agent
    I urge any of you interested in Bond fighting fundamentalist Muslims to watch Sleeper Cell on Showtime. Not only is it a fabulous show, but it also shows a way of saying that not all Muslims are bad, only the crazy ones who want to kill innocent people.
  • DAWUSSDAWUSS My homepagePosts: 517MI6 Agent
    I think Bond facing terrorism was needed in the series IMO, especially with Bond living in "our present world" (for the most part), and something like the issue of terrorism in our present day is something that makes for an interesting theme for a 007 story/film
  • highhopeshighhopes Posts: 1,358MI6 Agent
    I urge any of you interested in Bond fighting fundamentalist Muslims to watch Sleeper Cell on Showtime. Not only is it a fabulous show, but it also shows a way of saying that not all Muslims are bad, only the crazy ones who want to kill innocent people.

    I haven't seen that; thanks for the tip, Night. I think I may have read something about it a while back. Is it a series?
  • highhopeshighhopes Posts: 1,358MI6 Agent
    edited December 2006
    I don't view fictitious villains or terrorist organizations as necessarily meaning the filmmakers are pussy-footing or being politically correct. The desire to offend as few people as possible is definitely a part of it, but it's more than that. The risk of anchoring stories in the real world of the day is that they're more likely to be dated, in some cases absurdly so. Witness the cute and cuddly mujahaddin presented in TLD, who of course morphed into the Taliban. I personally don't need Bond fighting Al-Qaeda or any other real-world group -- fictional baddies are my preference.

    That's a very good point, Hillary, about the risk of dating the series. But I think FRWL still stands up even though the Soviet Union no longer exists (although the recent spy poisoning seems awfully Klebb-like). As much as I love seeing Bond more rooted in reality, I think the filmmakers have a problem if they can't do the same with the villains. A more realistic Bond going after fantastical villains would seem to clash.
    Well maybe they can dance around the subject and come up with some sort of satisfying euphemism (sp?). But I think they're going to have to show a terrorist attack someday, just like they had to show those space capsules being snatched by SPECTRE. But I hope they can work something out a that, like LavaBubble says, keeps the bones of it, but keeps the source vague (I wouldn't like PETA -- that's all we need is for Bond to go after animal nuts. Not that they are not dangerous, of course).
    But maybe Bond doesn't need some larger than life arch-enemy. I myself thought LeChiffre was a terrific villain. I just didn't really buy African terrorists.
  • LoeffelholzLoeffelholz The United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
    I think the Two Men in Straw Hats---left out from the CR book---should find their way into a future Craig Bond outing...
    Check out my Amazon author page! Mark Loeffelholz
    "I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
    "Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
  • Smoke_13Smoke_13 Kitchener Ont CanadaPosts: 285MI6 Agent
    Tough topic...terrorism.

    I've said on this board a few times before that I'm not a big fan of the over the top, super base dwelling villians. I enjoy seeing Bond do battle with more realistic foes (Though LeChiffre isnt one of my favorites ;)sorry HH). Bond dealing with more relative and normal villians is certainly more appealing in my eyes.

    That said, when it comes to a terrorism plot I think film makers would need to really watch how closely they set up enemies to resemble those in real life.

    Bond battling terrorism that too closely mirrors world events could be construed as trivializing what had happened in the past. Let's remember Bond is pure fantasy.

    The reality is a lot of people died in 9/11 and I'm not so sure James Bond running around and preventing a similar tragedy from occurring would be in good taste. If I were a firefighter, police officer or even a member of the general populous who gave everything they had -physically and mentally on that horrific day to save the victims of that terrorist attack I certainly would not want to see a Bond film taking a fantasy run at the same type of criminal activity. I wouldn't want to see a fictional character preventing a historical act of terrorism from occurring when all we were capable of doing here in the real world was reacting to it. Be it the towers or the subway bombings.

    My summary to my long winded arguement I guess would be that Bond going to battle with terrorism would possibly be okay. But as a film producer you had better make darn sure it didnt belittle or trivialize any of the efforts of the good folks that have had their lives affected by it. Is that possible? I dont know.

    ...great thought provoking topic though HH
  • s96024s96024 Posts: 1,519MI6 Agent
    Smoke_13 wrote:
    Tough topic...terrorism.

    I've said on this board a few times before that I'm not a big fan of the over the top, super base dwelling villians. I enjoy seeing Bond do battle with more realistic foes (Though LeChiffre isnt one of my favorites ;)sorry HH). Bond dealing with more relative and normal villians is certainly more appealing in my eyes.

    That said, when it comes to a terrorism plot I think film makers would need to really watch how closely they set up enemies to resemble those in real life.

    Bond battling terrorism that too closely mirrors world events could be construed as trivializing what had happened in the past. Let's remember Bond is pure fantasy.

    The reality is a lot of people died in 9/11 and I'm not so sure James Bond running around and preventing a similar tragedy from occurring would be in good taste. If I were a firefighter, police officer or even a member of the general populous who gave everything they had -physically and mentally on that horrific day to save the victims of that terrorist attack I certainly would not want to see a Bond film taking a fantasy run at the same type of criminal activity. I wouldn't want to see a fictional character preventing a historical act of terrorism from occurring when all we were capable of doing here in the real world was reacting to it. Be it the towers or the subway bombings.

    My summary to my long winded arguement I guess would be that Bond going to battle with terrorism would possibly be okay. But as a film producer you had better make darn sure it didnt belittle or trivialize any of the efforts of the good folks that have had their lives affected by it. Is that possible? I dont know.

    ...great thought provoking topic though HH

    I don't think they would ever copy an event that has already happened, they would have to invent something else that had not happened. Although I am not sure how this would even work. I was imagining what it would be like if for example they encorporated a "24" style plot into a bond film. I just can't see it coming out as well. As much as I love both bond and 24, I think they both work in their own way. Also I think if they did go to the topic of islamic terrorism, they would be trying to hard to prove that all muslims are not "bad". We have already had "United 93" and "World trade center" and I believe there has been another on that topic. I thought United 93 was terrible, it was like one of those cheap documentary films. Just making money on recent events. Have not seen the others yet.
    DAWUSS wrote:
    I think Bond facing terrorism was needed in the series IMO, especially with Bond living in "our present world" (for the most part), and something like the issue of terrorism in our present day is something that makes for an interesting theme for a 007 story/film

    I think they "usually" do such a good job of making up villains they don't need to be based on real people or real groups or atleast not exactly. Usually I like things to be as realistic as possible but with bond I never seem to mind.
  • highhopeshighhopes Posts: 1,358MI6 Agent
    Smoke_13 wrote:
    Bond battling terrorism that too closely mirrors world events could be construed as trivializing what had happened in the past. Let's remember Bond is pure fantasy.

    That's another excellent point, Smoke, and one that I had not considered. A too realistic portrayal of terrorism, one snatched too close to the headlines, might indeed lend itself to the charge that Bond was cashing in on tragedy.

    That's why I'm going to have to check out this Sleeper Cell that Nightshooter and OO6 praise so highly. I'd like to see how they handle the issue.

    _006_ wrote:
    I urge any of you interested in Bond fighting fundamentalist Muslims to watch Sleeper Cell on Showtime. Not only is it a fabulous show, but it also shows a way of saying that not all Muslims are bad, only the crazy ones who want to kill innocent people.
    I thought Sleeper Cell was fantastic, and it inspired me to take up my Islamic studies again (I've always enjoyed researching religions)
    Regardless of if he plays a Muslim, Oded Fehr would make an excellent Bond Villain (Or Kerim) the really funny thing is, for a guy who appears so stoic, Oded has an incredibly funny sense of humor.
    I thought there was reference to Islamic Terrorism in CR anyway, when M pointed out that "he wasn't even a True Believer anyway"
    Also, Re True Lies, I thought that that part of the chase (fantastic though the chase was) was a pretty obvious rip from True Lies.

    There was also the reference to 9/11 and the airline stock shorting. Which is why, while they were at it, they might have placed the camp visited by LeChiffre somewhere in say, Afghanistan, or Ikharizatstan (I made that up, but people would get the idea). The bomber himself still could have been in Madagascar. Perhaps he might have bombed the embassy of Great Britain or some other Western country there.

    (Then again, upon further reflection, the African camp may not really have been meant as a terrorist camp, but rather a group of cutthroats fighting a legitimate government. But then I don't know why the leader had to be able to access the money anywhere in the world.)

    I wouldn't want Eon to put too fine a point on the issue of Arab terror. I think that certainly a SPECTRE-like organization that offers logistical and financial support to terror organizations around the world for its own ends might work. I could see them even spawning domestic terror: for example, taking a weak-minded individual (ala Timothy McVeigh) and indoctrinating him to commit those types of acts.
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