Octopussy question
crawfordboon
Posts: 126MI6 Agent
Last night, watching OP, I finally thought I had the plot fuly nailed-down, having never been able to grasp it in its entirity before. But then, just as I was baskin in an undeserved sense of self-confidence, an event occurs that seemingly contradicts my understanding:
Orlov smashes the £500k Faberge egg at Kamal's Monsoon Palace, saying "this fake has caused enough trouble"
Orlov had been told by Mishka (or was it Grishka?) that the fake egg had been lost in the river whilst in transit from Kamal's forgers to the Kremlin Art Repository. Orlov then instructed "our people in London" (and by that he must have meant Magda and Kamal) that "we must have the genuine egg back" - hence Kamal has to buy the egg at the London auction.
Of course, Bond has swapped the fake at the auction, so Orlov would presumably find this out when the purchase was delivered (I'm pretty sure that Kamal and Magda head straight to their taxi without bothering to pay for or pick up the egg they paid so much for at the auction!). When Magda steals the real egg, they have both, but why would Orlov assuem that the real was one was the fake? Was Kamal trying to trick Orlov in some way - his expression suggests he was holding something back, either his duplicity or embarrassment at repeatedly screwing up.
In conclusion, I'm confused. Orlov smashes the fake, but according to his deal with Kamal he really should be taking it back to Leningrad to return to the art repository, on the basis that no-one will knwo the rael goods have been smugggled out to Kamal as payment for getting Orlov's bomb into Germany.
Orlov smashes the £500k Faberge egg at Kamal's Monsoon Palace, saying "this fake has caused enough trouble"
Orlov had been told by Mishka (or was it Grishka?) that the fake egg had been lost in the river whilst in transit from Kamal's forgers to the Kremlin Art Repository. Orlov then instructed "our people in London" (and by that he must have meant Magda and Kamal) that "we must have the genuine egg back" - hence Kamal has to buy the egg at the London auction.
Of course, Bond has swapped the fake at the auction, so Orlov would presumably find this out when the purchase was delivered (I'm pretty sure that Kamal and Magda head straight to their taxi without bothering to pay for or pick up the egg they paid so much for at the auction!). When Magda steals the real egg, they have both, but why would Orlov assuem that the real was one was the fake? Was Kamal trying to trick Orlov in some way - his expression suggests he was holding something back, either his duplicity or embarrassment at repeatedly screwing up.
In conclusion, I'm confused. Orlov smashes the fake, but according to his deal with Kamal he really should be taking it back to Leningrad to return to the art repository, on the basis that no-one will knwo the rael goods have been smugggled out to Kamal as payment for getting Orlov's bomb into Germany.
Comments
There are like 4 bad guys and they don't really focus on any them.
Right before this shot, Orlov sees the two men who end up hung on meat racks load the jewellery into the helicopter; it's not unreasonable for him to assume that the real Faberge egg is also on its way back to Moscow in the same consignment. This seems to be a joke on the part of the writers (We are fully aware that he has just smashed the real egg!) where they haven't realised that by this point pretty much everyone in the audience is confused about where the real egg is now!
@merseytart
There must be half a dozen threads about this egg business the issue of Kamal's expression invariably comes-up. Having been on a replica prop egg hunt for ages, I can tell you that even a crude copy isn't cheap. A fake good enough to fool an expert would be quite costly. I've always thought Kamal was reacting to the loss of so much time and craftsmanship ... even if it's not genuine.
And are you sure the men in the meat locker were the two who loaded the helicopter? I thought it was loaded by Soviet guards, though i may be wrong on that one. Why would they be killed anyway, to keep them quiet? That's a bit of a plot gap if you ask me.
Thank God...then you can explain why it was necessary for Bond to arrive at the climactic battle, in the nick of time, in a hot-air balloon (adorned with the Union Jack, of course) and piloted by a shaky old man X-(
I've been puzzling that one since '83...
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Hehe, good to get a little chuckle early in the am.
I'm still puzzled over what the hell Orlov has to do with the whole plot, besides the fact he s the one getting the nuclear bomb. Like somebody here said, too many bad guys with no focus on any of them.
No need to apologize---that's as good an explanation as I've heard {[]
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I'm not sure how the story redeems the hot air balloon ?:)
The story itself wasn't bad, neither were the villain(s), although the story/script definitely suffered from a lack of focus in this regard, IMO.
It was the OTT silliness (Tarzan yell, clown costume, Q-piloted hot air balloon, etc) and the too-old lead actor who ruined this film for me---although it did have a couple of fine moments...one of my favourites is Bond sliding down the banister with the machine gun
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
The "too-old" lead actor gave one of his best performances as 007. Examples being the backgammon scene, the confrontation with General Orlov, and any of his scenes with Octopussy. Roger Moore & Maud Adams had a very good on-screen chemistry together.
As for the OTT silliness. There's no need to debate the Tarzan Yell. The Q-piloted hot air balloon may well be OTT, but it's not OTT silly. As for the clown suit, I seriously disagree. It is neither OTT nor silly. Bond wears the clown suit to evade the security services and gain entrance to the circus in order to defuse the bomb. It's played straight, seriously straight when Bond is pleading with the American Colonel "There's a bomb in there". It's tense and very effective because it's played straight and not for laughs. Definitely one of Roger's better moments as Bond.
I won't debate the overall seriousness of the scene, and the effectiveness of the 'bomb at the circus' plot element, but I simply can't abide James Bond dressed up as a clown---never mind the fact that he completed the (presumably self-applied!?) makeup job in twelve seconds or so---to me, it's more a metaphor for Moore's tenure than it is an effective suspense device, and I can certainly live with the minority status of my opinion in this regard. I'd have been equally alarmed if it had been Connery, Lazenby, Dalton, Brosnan or Craig wearing the Big Red Nose
As for Moore's performance...if you say so. For me, despite some good moments, he was just 'past it' by the time OP was made.
As for the hot-air balloon: allowing for its highly dubious necessity/availability/utility as a means of Bond's ingress, having good ol' Q be the pilot was simply silly IMRO. Bond should have parachuted in, or given Little Nellie a cameo/reprise...anything.
Despite its undeniable superiority over AVTAK (faint praise indeed), I think OP would have been better served (as, indeed, every film after TSWLM would have been) with another actor in the role.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
No we caaaaaaaaaaaaaaan't...
Oh dear, now I am in trouble. {:)
I state this in my defence. I will not be going anywhere near the AVTAK clinic.
As for the clown suit, I think its good. As has been said before it's played seriously and without any bad jokes. (I can picture an american general saying "thats just british inteligence, clowning around")
The yell should have been cut yes; and as silly as the hot air ballon was, it too was played reasonably straight forward.
Does it really matter if it is the fake one or the real one?
Orlov naturally assumes in that moment of time that it is the fake because there is a transmitter planted in it. His reaction of smashing it is not a plot hole for me, as it is a perfect reaction in unison with his character displayed in the film, a hotheaded man with a short fuse WOULD smash the egg in that moment of time out of sheer rage, fake or real egg.
This goes for Dan overusing smileys. When glancing at one of the pages, you can always see which posts are his because of the use of the yellow smileys
Here's the way I understand it:
1. Lenkin makes a false egg to be presumably switched with the original before it is auctioned at Sotherby's. The original will of course be smuggled out with the rest of the jewelry.
2. Operation Trove: 009 recovers the false egg; it is a vital piece of the puzzle that is Orlov's and Kamal's scheme. While trying to escape, 009 is killed by either Mischka or Grischka (hard to tell which
3. Due to an unscheduled inventory, there is no time for Lenkin to make another replacement. Orlov is left with no choice but to buy it (a small price to pay considering all the other jewelry he duplicated) and he sends Kamal to Sotherby's to pick it up. At the auction, Bond switches the genuine egg with the fake one and Kamal leaves believing he's got the real thing.(Remember, Kamal and Orlov believe the fake egg is lost).
4. Bond returns to MI6 with the real egg. There is no risk that Kamal or Orlov will notice the switch as neither of them are jewelry experts. They most likely will be fooled by their own creation. This will ultimate lead to the confusion about which egg is which and the final destruction of the original.
5. Bond travels to India in pursuit of Kamal. During a round of backgammon, Bond pulls out the real egg. However, Kamal is convinced that the egg is not the genuine one, but the presumably lost egg stolen by 009 in the beginning of the film. He believes he bought the real deal at the auction. He is not aware of the switch that was made. As the fake egg is bound to bring up questions if it is leaked to the authorities, Kamal finds it in his best interest and the interest of his smuggling operation to recover the fake. He doesn't want the egg to surface or be blackmailed by Bond, so he decides to recover the egg by any means necessary. All at the same time he is under the impression that Bond has the fake, when in reality he's got the real deal!
6. Bond escapes Gobinda and his cronies and reaches Q's hidden laboratory. Q installs a bug into the real egg and Bond takes it back to his hotel.
7. Magda changes her mind about Bond's earlier invitation and they share an evening together. Magda is using Bond to get to the egg and she wakes up early in the morning to steal it. Bond knows that she has taken it, but it is just as he planned. With the egg in Kamal's hands, Bond can follow Kamal wherever he goes and listen in on his conversations which could shed a light on their plan.
8. Bond gets whacked by Gobinda and is taken to the Monsoon Palace. To Kamal's knowledge he has recovered the false egg from Bond (it's actually real!), but he wants to know exactly what Bond knows. Orlov pays a visit to Kamal where he is presented with the egg Kamal recovered from Bond. Believing this is the fake, as does Kamal, Orlov smashes it to destroy the evidence against them. However, they don't realize that what they just destoryed was the real thing. Kamal fliches, as PoorManJB has pointed out, because of the loss of a piece of delicate craftsmanship which wasn't cheap by any means. Orlov and Kamal leave the room with the peace of mind that the real thing is in the cache and they have cleaned up their paper trail. But we as the audience know exactly what they have done, destroyed the genuine egg.
The movie continues.....
I'll admit this is a very complicated plot element, but I believe I have mapped it out fairly well here. The key event in the egg plot is the switch at the auction. By switching the egg, Bond gave Kamal and Orlov false identities to both eggs. Everything was straightened out until Bond made the switch. This is what eventually led to the destruction of the wrong egg.
Whew! Hope this clears up a lot up for you.
I don't care what all you haters say, Octopussy rules! {[]
-Roger Moore
Another possibility as to why Kahn flinches could be that he still entertained the idea of putting the recovered fake egg in the cache, and try once more to re-sell the real one. He lost an opportunity when Orlov, as typical with his personality, smashed the problem with the butt of his gun.
The way I understand it the genuine egg was really up for sale. The trick was replacing it with the fake before it was sent to London. When the fake was stolen, there was not enough time to make a replacement before the real egg was in transit to London. Thus Orlov tried to contact London to stop the auction and allow more time to produce another fake. However, he did not reach them in time and Kamal was sent to Sotherby's to buy it.
That could be a possibility, attempting to sell the fake off as the original once more. However, I would imagine Kamal would want to lay low for a while. I know I would if I was sitting on a cache of stolen jewlery. If Kamal did attempt to sell the fake and it was discovered, all eyes would be on him as he certainly would become a suspect in the smuggling plot. Kamal is certainly greedy enough, but all things considered I don't think he'd risk getting caught as I'd imagine he'd be set financially.
-Roger Moore
Sorry if my question annoyed you. I guess you could say that "Why the hell did Bond arrive at the final battle of the film in a hot-air balloon piloted by Q???" is MY 'Octopussy Question'...one of many, actually
Have a nice day
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
But if the egg was really supposed to be up for sale, what need would there be for a fake? If the Russian government intended for the egg to go up for sale, wouldn't someone question why it was still in the Depository? At that point, someone would know there was a fake.
There would be no value in swapping the egg for the fake after the auction. Khan simply wanted the money...and it would be very difficult for him to pawn the genuine egg a second time. I think Khan wanted to sell the real egg, but at the same time make the Russians think they still had in their Depository (thus the fake was made). When the fake was lost in the river, Kahn had no choice but to purchase the actual egg back.