TND and TWINE
Bronzefinger
Posts: 5MI6 Agent
I think that Tommorow never dies slightly better than the world is not enough.
Does anyone else think this?
Does anyone else think this?
Comments
Based on my perusal of other people's Favorite Lists, I have to say yours is a minority viewpoint. But please elaborate on why you rank TND above TWINE.
One thing I didn't like about TWINE was how, while Renard was impervious to pain, nothing really came of it. A good concept, but like the Bond/Scaramanga fight it wasn't used to its full potential. I understand he was ready to die, but he might as well have had a tumor. The scene where he kills Elektra, though, was very well done. That was a powerful scene and one of the most defining moments in the history of Bond.
Nevertheless, like those who posted before me, neither of them really rank high up there in my books. And TND was the first Bond I saw, so that could contribute to my fondness of it.
TND at least delivers on it's clever ideas some of time, and as others above have noted it has kick butt action in it. And no Christmas Jones.
TND, on the other hand, is completely derivitive. It doesn't appear fresh, especially coming after GE and before TWINE. Also, it features one of the worst Bond girls of all time (Wai Lin who IMO makes Christmas Jones look like Hiney Rider), a bad villain and a terrible title. It does have some good moments, so I don't think it's a bad film, but I would never describe it as a good film.
TWINE is IMO Brosnan's best film, while TND is his third best.
For example - Wai Lin is deemed by some to be a good leading lady, others to be a strong one. You compare this to someone such as Pussy Galore or Honey and very few people are out there to pay her out. Christmas Jones was...she had a nice arse, but perhaps if her occupation had been "tourist in Istanbul" rather than being a full blown nuclear scientist.
TND has two great action sequnces - the car and the bike. Whereas TWINE has one good sequence (Q - boat) and two misses (ski chase, caviar factory.) Additionally, the arms bazzar provides some nice susspense, as does Bond's chase through Carvers German base. Sadly, both climax's are really weak compared to ones such as Goldfinger or Spy who loved me.
Many people point to weaknesses in Carver's plot. It does seem rather excessive to merely gain tv ratings. Sadly, Jonathon Pryce gives a weak performance because of bad writing. Its almost shameful to see him in this when you realise hes the same guy from Miss Saigon. Renard has a similar fault, great actor playing a 3 dimension vilian given a 2 dimensional potrayal. Its a bit like looking at a picture of a person rather than meeting them in person. As for Elektra, great potrayal is ruined by the fact that Bond knows her for under a day before he suspects her of being the baddie. They should have made the first half of the movie a love story, similar to OHMSS and have it be set over the period of a month or something.
Pretty much, its not as if either movie was drastically better than the other. Its also not as if they were good movies to begin with. Funnily enough, people feel the same way about Die Another Day. As good as he was at Bond, he needed more good movies.
I don't know about that. ALthough I agree with you about much of TWINE's flaws (I do agree that the romance with Electra was undeveloped) I think it was a great film and a vastly superior one to TND.
I play a game with TWINE to see how far I can go before switching it off. I dont think I have to got through to the end before switching it off. What I cant cope with is the sheer bad storytelling - the non-important narrative. Why does that bomb go off in the Istanbul safe house? Why are they whizzing around in the tunnel attached to a nuclear bomb. A few scenes of dialogue would have helped. And when they kidnap M you know the series has run out of ideas..
TND is quite good for the first half. The arms bazaar, hamburg, Dr Kaufman, the car chase. But when it heads off to Vietnam it seems to struggle. Wai Lin is a tedious heroine, we'd seen it all before, and Jonathan Pryce is a pathetic villain. But what threw it for me was the ramboesque antics of Brosnan at the stealthboat at the end. There becomes a time where I just flick on to KD Lang belting out 'Surrender' at the end. By far the best bit of the film.
TND has an excellent first half. The backstory of Brosnan's old flame Paris Carver was an intriguing one and the plot was at least something different. But forget about the second half. It's an incredibly dull barrage of action set pieces without any of the style that you'd attach to the Bond franchise- it's as if another director took over. And Jonathan Pryce gets hammier throughout the film- never worse than the bit with him emulating Wai Lin's Kung Fu prowess.
TWINE I watched not long ago, and while it was better than I remembered, it's still flawed. The Elektra character is very well written, the PTS is excellent (even if I feel it runs a bit too long) and it gave Robbie Coltrane a substantial part in the plot. But the actual nuclear bomb tale is pretty routine, Renard is actually a rather weak villain, Denise Richards is atrociously miscast and the climax reminds me of those awfully bad innuendos that ended stuff like 'Moonraker'.
Both 3/5 films, at the very best, imho.
A love interest with Bond as a surrogate father figure (ala FYEO, I hate that--and, why does Bond not bed the pinup scientist till the final scene???), a villian who does damn near nothing despite the great back story, and random and rambling action scenes that go nowhere. This is far from classic Bond IMHO, and more a stone's throw from Austin Powers-type fare. Many good ideas, but without the realization of them on the actual movie screen it's all for nought. Very forgettable IMO (and damn near insulting to burden Bond with both impotency AND baby sitting duties!
TND may get a bit action-heavy towards the end, but it stays true to it's concepts, simple as they are. Heck, I don't even mind all the bullets flying at the end, it's as if Bond and Wai Lin are storming Blofeld's volcano from YOLT, only sans ninja army--they HAVE to do it all by themselves, and Bond's little bit of trickery, blowing a hole in the side of the stealth boat so it can be seen on radar, is a nice touch and breaks up the Ramboness of it all IMO. Sure, it's not perfect (zero chemistry between Yeoh and Brosnan, and where's the great showdown with Stamper and Bond???--sorry, but Bond rule #1, if you create a badass henchman/villian, Bond at some point must kick his butt, or you better have a really really great reason why not ala CR), but I can last till the end of it, every time. Spottiswoode made a nice confectionary Bond film, fits in well with TSWLM/MR type Bonds IMO; Apted made a regrettable Glenish mess.
There is nothing wrong with the lead up, the lead up is the 18 films before it and all of Bonds ladies, and finnaly killing one that screws him over, if you dont notice the lead up in TWINE itself then there is something wrong, scenes like when Elektra is freaking out in the snow, when they make love (with probably the most passion in any of the Bonds), when Elektra beats Bond to conclusions and tricks him, when Elektra pretends to be hurt and tormented from the hostage Bond falls in love, then he finds out and kills her are all great lead up moments to the killing.
Renard is not the villain, Elektra is the villian and she causes Bond the most pain. Renard is almost like Bond where he is blinded by the love of Elektra, Renard is just like a workhorse for Elektra or a henchman. Yes the not killing scene underground is annoying, and I like your rendition of keeping the rest of the story going without him it would work nicely, but I dont have any problems with how it went. The reason why people dont find Renard a memorable villian is because he isnt the villian, he's more of a henchman.
Yes the action scenes in TWINE dont mean much and are just 'insert here' but the drama and characterisation around it all make up for it.
Bond is sent in to look after Elektra, he doesnt do it by choice like in FYEO etc, he is supposed to protect her, and he doesnt bed Xmas Jones until the end because he is in love with the real villian, whats the difference anyway, its better when you have a half film lead up before they do it.
How can you be a surrogate father when Elektra is making love and using Bond to aide her schemes?
That is absolute bull****, one of the main problems with TND is the formula feels so tired and used, thats why the last Bonds have been so different (apart from DAD, to good effect), you said that the villians dont mean anything in TWINE, what about the weak ass-cliche-run of the mill villian and henchman in TND? Even the fight in the stealth boat at the end is run of the mill action crap.
Spottiswood made the worst entry into the series, Apted made one that proved that everyone in TWINE could act superbly, Judi Dench, Sophie Marceau and especailly Pierce Brosnan.
Apted proved his vision, that James Bond can actully act.
"Better make that two."
{[] thats true mate, each to their own.
Some could bag on to me about why i dont like sean connery, but i could never see, lol.
"Better make that two."
I don't understand. You may not like Denise Richards, but how can you think that Bond was the surrogate father figure in their relationship? ?:)
The age difference.
The age difference between Bond and Miranda is the same as my dad and my older sister. The disturbed me on too many levels.
Anyhoo, them's the vibes I get.
According to IMDB, Brosnan was born in 1953 and Elektra in 1966. Funnily enough, I pictured her being ALOT younger. Also, Christmas was born in 1971. But their parts always seemed written for a much younger age.
I adore this chase. IMO it's one of the absolute greatest of all time and the best action scene in the entire film. Why? Because it's so creative. The film is extremely derivitive, but I have always felt that this chase scene was very fresh and simply terrific. That it came after such a fantastic scene with Dr. Kaufman is a bonus.
I don't know exactly why he did it, but my guess is that Bond wanted to test Carver, and perhaps provoke him into making a mistake. It's interesting that as a consequence of this converation, Carver tried unsuccessfully to kill Bond, thus confirming his suspicions.
I have to agree with you on this one. It's a great line. It's also a great scene which IMO was a perfect representation (pre-killing of Electra) of Brosnan Bond's ruthlessness. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is as good as the killings of Dent and Sandor (the two greatest ruthless killings in the entire series IMO) but I do think it is a fantastic scene which any Bond would be proud to be connected with. -{
To me, the cinematic arc of 007 has resulted in him not being a "secret agent" since his earliest films. While I agree with you that his "spectre" comments to Largo are gratuitous, one could also argue that since SPECTRE is aware of Bond going back to FRWL (when they want to avenge his killing of Dr. No) he is already a known commodity. In that context, his cover was blown the minute he walked into the Nassau casino, and he and Largo were simply engaging in alpha-male marking of territory.
By the time TND rolled around, all the "undercover" stuff seemed silly to me. After all, our hero has been recognized by bartenders and concierges the world over, and has been told, "your reputation precedes you" on more than occasion. So the stuff with Carver is again just macho posturing -- "I know you're up to no good, I'm here to wreak havoc, try and stop me." Of course, no secret agent would ever do something so stupid, but Bond isn't a secret agent anymore. BTW, this is one reason I like CR so much -- the reboot allows him to be a secret agent once again.
TND is one of those films where the negatives outweigh the positives, and only just.
There are so many elements in TND that are great, TND can almost be viewed as DAD is. First half = good 2nd half=terrible.
The villian and the girl sucks, and the only one holding it together is PB.
But TND's americanization AGAIN, shoot-em-ALL-up, cliche henchman, PB syndrome 'insert action here', boring plot, bad screenplay, and parodies of Bond all ruin the movies chance of being a good one.
Dottiwood more like it.
I do like some of the quotes tho like:
"Spare me the techno babble"
and
"Tell me James do you still sleep with a gun under your pillow"
"Better make that two."
That is how I view TND & DAD. I prefer DAD because I enjoy it's first half more. Most notably: the surfers in the PTS, the title sequence, Bond's entrance into a Hong Kong hotel wearing only sodden pyjamas, the Cuba scenes (apart from Bond's dialogue with Jinx on the beach), Zao's escape from Los Alamos, and the swordfight between Bond & Gustav Graves.
Whereas with TND, I enjoy little apart from the Bond/Q exchange, the Bond/Dr Kaufman exchange, and the scene where Bond sits in his hotel room waiting for Paris Carver, as it turns out.
Bond is perpetually 38, in Casino Royale and in You Only Live Twice
every one of the Fleming girls is in her twenties, usually mid
Honey Rider is 20, I think even Bond considered her a bit young
Tiffany Case and Vesper Lynd were not much older
Sorry, "age contemporary" was a bit misleading to where I was going, hope this bit helps.
Fish, I never denied that Bond has killed an unarmed person. I was simply pointing out that he might still be reluctant to do so as he is human.
I do't think it was a mistake. As for TB, I'll be rewatching it again very soon, so I'll get back to you on that.
Because I (and others) disagree. It's not about making excuses for his behaviour; I simply disagree with you. On a side note, I do however have a problem with you calling Bond an idiot. Obviously, you can say whatever you like, but if you do call Bond an idiot (or any other word of endearment), you can't be too shocked if I or someone else were to object.
As for saying hes reluctant to kill an un armed person, thats up for discussion. To say that he "might still be reluctant" however is a far strecth, as in many of those times he showed no reluctance. He didnt seem to irked about having to kill Davidov or Sandor. In fact, Elektra was the only one he seemed to show grief for, and part of it seemed liked he was upset she was evil, not that Bond had to kill her