moonraker/octopussy

alabamabondfan

I'm still making my way through the Bond films for the first time. In the last week I've watched Octopussy and Moonraker. These two shot way up on my bad Bond film list. YOLT was the reigning champ but these two actually made me appreciate YOLT. Moonraker was horrible. The plot, the villian, all the outerspace stuff was just pitiful. The love interest for Jaws was dorky. It was really hard to sit through and actually made me appreciate the earlier films more. Octopussy was just boring to me. I think Roger Moore should have been replaced much sooner. Of course, if the Dalton movies are as bad as I've heard I may look back fondly on old Roger Moore running around saving the day.
I gotta say that I'm not looking forward to AVTAK now. I've heard it's one of the worst (apologies to JFF).
All that being said, I'm really enjoying working through these movies for the first time.

Krassno Granitski

alabamabondfan wrote:

Of course, if the Dalton movies are as bad as I've heard I may look back fondly on old Roger Moore running around saving the day.

I envy you and also recommend you read the books. (if you haven't already)I would watch all the films first, because if you are anything like me everything changed for me when I read them. As far as the Dalton films go I loved them but there are people that....do not care for them. As far as moonraker/octopussy the less said the better.

AlFo

yes moore should have left much sooner. He just looks wrong in vtak. However there is a lot to be had from this film. Christopher Walken is pretty cool as a baddie and.... actually there's not that much to be had. BUT... This is on a lot of peoples least favourite list simply because Moore looks so old in it whereas in reality its probably about on the level with mwtgg which usually ranks much higher.

You mention moonraker (I cringe whenever jaws appears. Terrible terrible scenes! And the ending is just a bad version of thunderbal set in space) and octopussy so I take it you watched fyeo. Did you like that?

Al

PS Dalton in my opinion is excellent.

JennyFlexFan

alabamabondfan wrote:

I'm still making my way through the Bond films for the first time. In the last week I've watched Octopussy and Moonraker. These two shot way up on my bad Bond film list. YOLT was the reigning champ but these two actually made me appreciate YOLT. Moonraker was horrible. The plot, the villian, all the outerspace stuff was just pitiful. The love interest for Jaws was dorky. It was really hard to sit through and actually made me appreciate the earlier films more. Octopussy was just boring to me. I think Roger Moore should have been replaced much sooner. Of course, if the Dalton movies are as bad as I've heard I may look back fondly on old Roger Moore running around saving the day.
I gotta say that I'm not looking forward to AVTAK now. I've heard it's one of the worst (apologies to JFF).
All that being said, I'm really enjoying working through these movies for the first time.

AVTAK IS GOOD! Dalton does suck, you're right about that. But you get Chris Walken as the bad guy, and he's amazingly good at portraying the wickedly evil Max Zorin while Grace Jones does a wonderful job at being his ferocious Amazonian assassin May Day with her provokative dress style. The locations are beautiful with Chantilly, Paris, Stacey's house and City Hall. Stacey herself people find fault with, but look at it this way, she was just doing her job when people came to her house to ransack it so she'd cash the check and next she's hanging from a snapping cord in a burning elevator shaft! There's also the golden nugget of Ms. Jenny Flex, a bit part May Day henchwoman who makes you want to go on early morning rides with her.

Agent Sidewinder

I disagree wholeheartedly. MR and OP both represent James Bond, 007 at his best, with stunningly locations, superb villains, mystery and suspense galore, and Roger Moore in top form.:D

Moore Not Less

Agent Sidewinder wrote:

I disagree wholeheartedly. MR and OP both represent James Bond, 007 at his best, with stunningly locations, superb villains, mystery and suspense galore, and Roger Moore in top form.:D

Not quite 007 at his best. For me, MR represents the best and worst of James Bond. The centrifuge sequence, the pheasant shoot & Corinne Dufour's death are classic Bond. MR also has great sets and locations, some very good effects, a very good villain with some memorable dialogue, one of John Barry's best scores and an underrated title song. And while Roger Moore is in good form, he is in even better form in most of his other Bond films.

Unfortunately, MR also has the double take pigeon/Bondola sequence plus the laser battle in space. And Jaws, who is in the film mainly for laughs and is basically reduced to a lovesick teddy bear when he has that very cringeworthy romance with Dolly.

Octopussy is a much better representation of 007. Beginning with the excellent PTS featuring the Acro-Star mini jet. This is followed by other wonderful sequences including 009's death, the auction of the Faberge Egg, the Backgammon scene, the whole train sequence (beginning when Bond poses as a circus worker) and beyond to the moment when Bond disarms the bomb at the circus. OP also has some great sets and locations, a couple of very good villain's, memorable henchmen, a very good Bond woman. And Roger Moore is in top form.

And yes, OP does have the Tarzan yells, but there's very little else to detract from a wonderfully entertaining experience, in my opinion.

Prince Kamal Khan

alabamabondfan wrote:

I'm still making my way through the Bond films for the first time. In the last week I've watched Octopussy and Moonraker. These two shot way up on my bad Bond film list. YOLT was the reigning champ but these two actually made me appreciate YOLT. Moonraker was horrible. The plot, the villian, all the outerspace stuff was just pitiful. The love interest for Jaws was dorky. It was really hard to sit through and actually made me appreciate the earlier films more. Octopussy was just boring to me. I think Roger Moore should have been replaced much sooner. Of course, if the Dalton movies are as bad as I've heard I may look back fondly on old Roger Moore running around saving the day.
I gotta say that I'm not looking forward to AVTAK now. I've heard it's one of the worst (apologies to JFF).
All that being said, I'm really enjoying working through these movies for the first time.

MR and OP, along with TSWLM make my top 3 Moore Bond films. Sure, MR is basically an action comedy that's not faithful to its Fleming source novel(like all the 1970s Bond films were) rather than a Fleming-like thriller but it's so fast paced, fun and unpretentious I take it on its own terms and find it an enjoyable and pleasant way to spend 2 hours. OP does slow a bit in the India sections but the East and West Germany section are highly exciting and have Moore's Bond fighting a more realistic threat than he did in MR and TSWLM.

Since you said you didn't care for YOLT and MR I'd be curious to know if you liked TSWLM. I figure anyone who disliked any of the Lewis Gilbert-directed Bond flicks would probably dislike all 3 of them and vice versa, I figure anyone who enjoyed 1 of those 3 would like the other 2 as well.

AVTAK is the rock bottom of the series. You'll think MR and OP are FRWL and OHMSS by comparison to AVTAK. However, the Timothy Dalton Bond films are incredible. TLD and LTK attempt the relatively more "serious" approach of FYEO but with stronger results and in Dalton, an actor better suited to a more realistic and serious Bond. I consider Dalton's films the advance guard of what we eventually got with Daniel Craig's Bond in CR.

RJJB

MR and OP are two of the worst entries in the entire series. Roger Moore portrayed a second rate astronaut and a poor Indiana Jones clone in the respective movies. These movies really show just how dried up the creative process had become. You can't blame Moore for the direction the movies took. It just shows that the producers lost sight of their own creation, and were content in mimicing other popular movies instead of forging their own path. But now that you've seen them, you can rest easy that you never have to watch them again. No sense in wasting any more time of your life on this dreck.

Krassno Granitski

Moore Not Less wrote:

Beginning with the excellent PTS featuring the Acro-Star mini jet.

Have to disagree here, terrible PTS. "Fill er up"

This is followed by other wonderful sequences including 009's death, the auction of the Faberge Egg,

Now this should have been the PTS absolutely excellent sequence that somehow does not belong in this film because it is so good. Octopussy was a real mixed bag, not exactly sure what type of movie it wanted to be - serious FYEO or comedy MR. Uneven film that could have been so much moore.

Loeffelholz

alabamabondfan wrote:

I'm still making my way through the Bond films for the first time. In the last week I've watched Octopussy and Moonraker. These two shot way up on my bad Bond film list. YOLT was the reigning champ but these two actually made me appreciate YOLT. Moonraker was horrible. The plot, the villian, all the outerspace stuff was just pitiful. The love interest for Jaws was dorky. It was really hard to sit through and actually made me appreciate the earlier films more. Octopussy was just boring to me. I think Roger Moore should have been replaced much sooner.

I am with you One Hundred Percent {[] In my opinion, the longer Moore stayed in the tux, the less satisfying his outings became---despite scattered excellent moments throughout his tenure. It just seemed to me that they were very sparse by the time he creaked out his final two. The fact is, I prefer Moore outings like LALD, TMWTGG and TSWLM to MR, OP and AVTAK...FYEO is good also (it was actually written for a new actor at the time; hence the 'Tracy's Grave' bit at the beginning to tie a new actor to the role, but---alas---Sir Roger was retained )...

alabamabondfan wrote:

Of course, if the Dalton movies are as bad as I've heard I may look back fondly on old Roger Moore running around saving the day.

You might be in for a pleasant surprise... Dalton's two, though flawed, IMO begin an important course correction as far as the franchise is concerned.

alabamabondfan wrote:

I gotta say that I'm not looking forward to AVTAK now. I've heard it's one of the worst...

Indeed. High tide at the skunk farm.

Hi JFF!

alabamabondfan wrote:

All that being said, I'm really enjoying working through these movies for the first time.

I envy you the first experience. How exciting :007)

I must say, you strike me as a Bond fan of most discerning taste -{ Wecome (belatedly) to AJB!

Prince Kamal Khan

Krassno Granitski wrote:

Octopussy was a real mixed bag, not exactly sure what type of movie it wanted to be - serious FYEO or comedy MR. Uneven film that could have been so much moore.

I kinda have a similar reaction to FYEO. In retrospect the 1981 entry was a midway transition piece between the style of films that started with DAF and the style of films that would start later with TLD. There are serious elements(visiting Tracy's grave, Cold War espionage, Melina, less gadgetry and sci fi, more fidelity than usual to the Fleming source material) yet there's also a lot of lighthearted aspects(Bibi Dahl, Bill Conti's disco score, Moore's constant quips, "give us a kiss", "keep your hair on", and the bit with Maggie and Dennis at the end)

Krassno Granitski

Prince Kamal Khan wrote:

I kinda have a similar reaction to FYEO. In retrospect the 1981 entry was a midway transition piece between the style of films that started with DAF and the style of films that would start later with TLD. There are serious elements(visiting Tracy's grave, Cold War espionage, Melina, less gadgetry and sci fi, more fidelity than usual to the Fleming source material) yet there's also a lot of lighthearted aspects(Bibi Dahl, Bill Conti's disco score, Moore's constant quips, "give us a kiss", "keep your hair on", and the bit with Maggie and Dennis at the end)

Surprised you did not mention Blofeld? But you are right, there were some in my mind questionable content in FYEO, but Octopussy seemed to go much farther, into the absurd. Plus we get to see Moore put through the ringer and get his hands dirty. Moore complained at the time about the physicality. I personally like it that he got ruffed up a bit in FYEO.

Dan Same

Moore Not Less wrote:

Not quite 007 at his best. For me, MR represents the best and worst of James Bond. The centrifuge sequence, the pheasant shoot & Corinne Dufour's death are classic Bond. MR also has great sets and locations, some very good effects, a very good villain with some memorable dialogue, one of John Barry's best scores and an underrated title song. And while Roger Moore is in good form, he is in even better form in most of his other Bond films

Unfortunately, MR also has the double take pigeon/Bondola sequence plus the laser battle in space. And Jaws, who is in the film mainly for laughs and is basically reduced to a lovesick teddy bear when he has that very cringeworthy romance with Dolly.

I pretty much agree. I think that MR does have some great elements, but it also has some terrible elements (such as the second half.) I disagree with one thing though; IMO Moore was superb in MR and it was probably his fourth best performance (after TSWLM, LALD and FYEO.)

Moore Not Less wrote:

Octopussy is a much better representation of 007. Beginning with the excellent PTS featuring the Acro-Star mini jet. This is followed by other wonderful sequences including 009's death, the auction of the Faberge Egg, the Backgammon scene, the whole train sequence (beginning when Bond poses as a circus worker) and beyond to the moment when Bond disarms the bomb at the circus. OP also has some great sets and locations, a couple of very good villain's, memorable henchmen, a very good Bond woman. And Roger Moore is in top form.

And yes, OP does have the Tarzan yells, but there's very little else to detract from a wonderfully entertaining experience, in my opinion.

I loved OP. I consider it to be easily the most underrated Bond film ever made (alomg with perhaps YOLT.) I thought that Moore was wonderful, the scenery, action scenes, script and villains were all terrific and I just think it's a fabulously entertaining romp. I really loved it. -{


Alabamabondfan, beware. IMO AVTAK and TLD are the two worst Bond films ever made, with Dalton being the worst of the Bonds, and LTK is also pretty bad. I do not envy you having to watch the trash that are AVTAK and TLD.

JennyFlexFan

Dan, when he comes back and loves AVTAK, I shall be doing this. ) (particularly at you and Rogue and the other anti-AVTAKists).

However, I'll partially agree with Dan. I would never want to subject you to the torturous horror known as Licence to Kill.

Dan Same

JennyFlexFan wrote:

Dan, when he comes back and loves AVTAK, I shall be doing this. ) (particularly at you and Rogue and the other anti-AVTAKists).

I'm looking forward to it. )

Steed

I'm always surprised at the negativity towards Octopussy. It figures highly in my Top 10 and for me, only one of Moore's films is more consistent and better- TSWLM. Even FYEO is patchy in parts, really. Octopussy features a superb performance from Roger Moore (and this was, in retrospect, where he should have bowed out- I think he hasn't aged badly at all here), a great villain in Louis Jordan and some stunning action set pieces. Comedy is largely kept out and what there is, I enjoy(save the tarzan yell). The plot is a bit tangled, but there's FAR more I like than I don't. Definitely an 'all time high' for me.;)

But Moonraker is bottom of the barrel Bond for me. WAY too much silliness, a rather by the numbers plot, uninspired villains, unmemorable Bond girls, an inexplicable return of Jaws, a disappointingly slow paced (imho) finale. Only TMWTTGG is weaker of Moore's films, imo.

Krassno Granitski

Steed wrote:

Comedy is largely kept out and what there is, I enjoy(save the tarzan yell)

Bond telling a tiger to sit? and it works. Vijay playing the 007 theme, bond in an alligator, the chase through the bazaar, Q's sequence both when he shows 007 gadgets and the hot air balloon, the PTS, the oddjob rip off villain. Bond jumping on a plane, the girls attach of Kamals fortress.All of these and Mooore are just ridiculous and do not stand the test of time or multiple viewing. One of the reasons I prefer AVTAK, at least they attempted to cut the humor somewhat. Octopussy /Moonraker the James Bond comedy double feature

Moore Not Less

Steed wrote:

I'm always surprised at the negativity towards Octopussy. It figures highly in my Top 10 and for me, only one of Moore's films is more consistent and better- TSWLM. Even FYEO is patchy in parts, really. Octopussy features a superb performance from Roger Moore (and this was, in retrospect, where he should have bowed out- I think he hasn't aged badly at all here), a great villain in Louis Jordan and some stunning action set pieces. Comedy is largely kept out and what there is, I enjoy(save the tarzan yell). The plot is a bit tangled, but there's FAR more I like than I don't. Definitely an 'all time high' for me.;)

Yes, in retrospect Roger should have bowed out after OP. He really was on top form. Also considering that OP beat NSNA at the box office. I also enjoyed the comedy (save the tarzan yell). Perhaps not an 'all time high' for me, but not far off. OP is my third favourite Bond film.

Steed

^Sure, it's not my all time fave either (I was just quoting the theme tune;)), but it's up there. OHMSS will always be that and I can't see it ever changing.

But really, Octopussy is no more comedic than earlier films, and indeed to me is a good deal less farcical than The Man With The Golden Gun (Bond putting Nick Nack in a suitcase after struggling to defeat him in a showdown, a silly Kung Fu sequence, the inexplicable slapstick return of Sheriff Pepper) and Diamonds Are Forever (surely the most farcical Bond film ever- I love watching it for sheer fun value, but it plays like a spoof- little in it is taken seriously, yet it's Moore that gets blamed for the increased comedy). As for Octopussy, what about the dead serious (and deadly) train chase which for my money is one of the best action scenes ever for the series and the circus scene which is very tense indeed. As for the 'flute 007' reference, what about similar moments in OHMSS- 'this never happened to the other fellow'- and Goldfinger- the '007' clock and Bond's quip 'what kept you'. This sort of referencing of Bond has happened before in the series.

The PTS is a lot of fun for me, and whilst I will readily admit that, the circus girls' attack on the mansion and the chase through the bazaar is goofy (though no more so than the parrot/Margaret Thatcher parody and the 'drive in the country' in FYEO), I laugh at that and most other comedy in OP far more than I do at anything from TMWTTGG, AVTAK (in no way is this a more serious film, imho- what about the abysmal 'California Girls' snow surfing, which is the most embarassing moment of the series,imho, and the car chase with the irate cab driver shouting? The villains are just as cartoonish- I think May Day and Zorin are great characters, but are no more real than any in Octopussy) and Moonraker.

The 'comedy Bond' films are Diamonds Are Forever, The Man With The Golden Gun and Moonraker, as far as I'm concerned.

Agent Sidewinder

I agree with all that's been said about Octopussy - I'd also say that the bomb defusal scene is one of the best Bond scenes ever...

But I think it's weird how Moore's age seems to fluctuate in that film. Look at the initial briefing scene in M's office, Rog looks about 10 years older than he does in the PTS. Then by the time he gets to Sotheby's, he's back to normal...?:)

Moore Not Less

Steed, I pretty much agree with you on all counts except OHMSS, which is far from my favourite Bond film. And the 'California Girls' snow surfing in AVTAK is not the most embarassing moment of the series. Bond's disguise as a Japanese in YOLT, the karate girls kung fu sequence in TMWTGG, the Jaws/Dolly romance in MR, the CGI parasurfing in DAD are all considerably more embarassing to me.

Steed

^Well, all of those moments ARE cringeworthy, I must admit.:D

Loeffelholz

[post deleted] :v

Discipline, 007...discipline...

Tee Hee

Loeffelholz wrote:

[post deleted] :v

Discipline, 007...discipline...

) I appreciate your restraint, not that anything negative can be said of OP.

Loeffelholz

Riiiiight...

{[]

JennyFlexFan

AVTAK is Moore's most serious film in my opinion! Hardly any comedy moments, the only coming to mind is California Girls at the beginning and the (unintentionally) funny fight in the microchip warehouse. Listen to Barry's score, not one moment of happiness or lightness, very dark all-throughout.

Speaking of the score, listen to Wine With Stacey somewhat loudly. YOU CAN HEAR THE PERSON BREATHING! It's rather annoying, and such a beautiful piece too.

Prince Kamal Khan

Krassno Granitski wrote:

Prince Kamal Khan wrote:

I kinda have a similar reaction to FYEO. In retrospect the 1981 entry was a midway transition piece between the style of films that started with DAF and the style of films that would start later with TLD. There are serious elements(visiting Tracy's grave, Cold War espionage, Melina, less gadgetry and sci fi, more fidelity than usual to the Fleming source material) yet there's also a lot of lighthearted aspects(Bibi Dahl, Bill Conti's disco score, Moore's constant quips, "give us a kiss", "keep your hair on", and the bit with Maggie and Dennis at the end)

Surprised you did not mention Blofeld? But you are right, there were some in my mind questionable content in FYEO, but Octopussy seemed to go much farther, into the absurd. Plus we get to see Moore put through the ringer and get his hands dirty. Moore complained at the time about the physicality. I personally like it that he got ruffed up a bit in FYEO.

That's probably one of the reasons I preferred OP(and MR and TSWLM) to FYEO. When Moore's playing Bond, I want Bond to be absurd. When Bond's being truly serious I don't want Bond to be Moore, I want Bond to be Dalton or Connery.

I know many folks call OP an odd mix of MR and FYEO but I would call OP more of a sequel to the comedy Bond of TSWLM and MR except OP's plot is less sci-fi and more realistic. Actually, I consider Orlov's and Khan's scheme the best threat of the Moore era.

Loeffelholz

JennyFlexFan wrote:

AVTAK is Moore's most serious film in my opinion! Hardly any comedy moments, the only coming to mind is California Girls at the beginning and the (unintentionally) funny fight in the microchip warehouse. Listen to Barry's score, not one moment of happiness or lightness, very dark all-throughout.

Oh my gawd )

JennyFlexFan wrote:

Speaking of the score, listen to Wine With Stacey somewhat loudly. YOU CAN HEAR THE PERSON BREATHING! It's rather annoying, and such a beautiful piece too.

That was the film crew...snoring :v

Hi JFF!

Prince Kamal Khan

JennyFlexFan wrote:

AVTAK is Moore's most serious film in my opinion! Hardly any comedy moments, the only coming to mind is California Girls at the beginning and the (unintentionally) funny fight in the microchip warehouse. Listen to Barry's score, not one moment of happiness or lightness, very dark all-throughout.

Really? More serious than FYEO? With "There's a fly in his soup?" after Aubergine's death? The jokey banter between Bond and Tibbett at Chantilly? The comedic switch of the tapes when Pola and General Gogol discover this?

I do agree with you about Barry's score, it's very serious and melancholic. In retrospect, FYEO and AVTAK should have switched composers.

JennyFlexFan

NO! FYEO's score works with FYEO for this purpose. Conti does serious too, listen to the Rocky films.

He has some jokey banter, but that's really all there is. It's not farcical like DAF or MR, very toned down and serious. The death of Klotkoff, the mine sequence, the bridge fight, sneaking around the chateau, the quasi-romantic parts w/ Stacey, almost any scene with Zorin in it, City Hall... the story and movie are very dark all the way throughout.

zooeyhall

Octopussy is one of the highlights of the Bond series, in my opinion, for the following reasons and more:

A terrific title song;

A great opening sequence, with twin murderers pursuing a circus clown through the nightime forest

A wonderfully exotic locale: India

A suave and sophisticated villain, wonderfully played by Louis Jourdan

Maude Adams

A priceless Faberge Egg that turns out to be a fake

What more could you ask?