Timothy Dalton

Lazenby

I've never been a huge Timothy Dalton fan (he's probably my least favorite Bond) and for years I have been unable to put a finger on precisely why. A fellow at another board had the following to say, and it more or less captures exactly my misgivings about Dalton:

"Dalton doesn't deserve degrading, necessarily, but he did miss out on some key elements of the Bond character. Firstly, he just wasn't all that cool. He was often very tense, and he lacked that relaxed, nonchalant attitude that I feel is very important. Secondly, his relationships with the ladies was laughable - the dude has no sex appeal."

Key elements of the character of Bond indeed (the cinematic Bond at least). What say you all?

Alex

Depends on what sort of Bond one's mood seeks, which may alter from time to time. Sure he was tense, but you could also say he was intense, and that, to my mind is a good thing and a quality of the cinematic Bond.

Dalton gets a bum rap at times, his build was slighter then Connery, Lazenby and Moore and he didn't play the role like any of them, but at that point I felt it was the only viable option. And, if he had gotten the role around 1980, many of us might be talking about Dalton in the same breath as Sir Sean. Instead we got too little, too late.

John Drake

I thought Dalton handled the relationships with women quite well if they were part of the story, ie Kara in TLD and Pam and Lupe in LTK. The problem was when he had to do the James Bond thing and flirt with any women that were available. This only really happens in TLD so the producers must have been wise to it by the time LTK came around. There's the moment at the beginning with that silly bint whose whining about there being no decent men around. Then the flirtation with Miss Moneypenny, who I don't think Dalton's Bond would care about being a serious-work orientated guy and finally, the two girls who pick up Bond for Felix and Dalton has to deliver the awful line, 'not if the party's still on.' Those are awkward moments and I really don't like them. But they are nothing like as bad as the Paris Carver/ Brosnan Bond relationship in TND. Never for a moment did I beleive that those two would be in the same room together, never mind getting it on.

Napoleon Han Solo

I'm much more into Dalton than I am into Brosnan. I find Dalton has all the Bond qualities only in him they are transmuted into something leaner and tougher. When he delivers a one liner he spits it with true venom, it isn't just a cocky aside to the audience but an expression of contempt for his victim. I love in LTK as he watches the corrupt cop lowered into the shark tank with an intense pleasure, or as he watches Krest's head explode in the hyperbaric chamber. I think Dalton was closer to the novel Bond than any other. Where his movies get awkward, for me, is when the gadgets are brought out. His more intense style just doesn't synch up with little gadgets and trick cars. Still I like both his movies better than any of Brosnan's. I'm not saying I hate Brosnan, I like all the Bonds, but Dalton had a unique style, Pierce seemed a bit more generic, spinning off what had already been established. I think that at the time GE was released, though, people wanted that comfort zone.

Lazenby

Alex wrote:

Sure he was tense, but you could also say he was intense, and that, to my mind is a good thing and a quality of the cinematic Bond.

It wasn't just that he was in/tense-- Sean Connery could be intense at times, heck even Roger Moore could, however both could pull it off without coming off like they were taking the whole thing waaay too seriously. That is my biggest gripe about Dalton.

if he had gotten the role around 1980, many of us might be talking about Dalton in the same breath as Sir Sean. Instead we got too little, too late.

I think Lazenby should have been Bond all through the 70s-- it would have been an interesting hand-off from him to Dalton in time for FYEO.

Solaris

I like Dalton's Bond, there are things that shouldn't have been present in his films but overall I like his performance and he is one of my favourite bonds because he reflects the bond of the books.

If Dalton had got the role of Bond earlier, after Lazenby for example, his bond would have fitted better. think about it, After your Wife has been murdered by your arch enemy, are you going to behave like the dark Dalton Bond, or the more joking Moore style Bond.

I always See Dalton's Bond as being a continuation of Lazenby's, Colder, Darker and more of a closed person because of what has happened in his past, the death of his wife. Moore only had a few moments in all his films when he looked as if he still thought about Tracy, and that was when Amasova mentions it in TSWLM and then again in FYEO when he is at her grave side. in those moments he does it very well, but the rest of the time...?

Ideally Lazenby yould have done a few more films so we could see the continuation of the character and see properly what the death of Tracy has done to him, instead we get a film with Sir Sean where it looked like he didn't really want to be in it and then the happy go lucky Moore. it is not until Dalton that we see the darker James Bond that in my eyes is caused by the death of Tracy.

Napoleon Han Solo

Very excellent reply Solaris. I would also like to add to what I said earlier that people may accuse Dalton of not being charming, but what he may lack in the breeziness of the Sirs he makes up for in brooding, smoldering intensity which gals would find quite attractive.

Agent Sidewinder

That man pretty much sums up my opinion as well. But here's another thing: People always describe Dalton's Bond as "Fleming's Bond", obviously referring to the brooding qualities of the latter. However, whenever Fleming's Bond was brooding, he was usually alone, while travelling, in his flat or hotel room, etc. While Dalton seemed to let this aspect drip from every single word - almost as if he were playing Tim Burton/Bruce Timm-era Batman instead of Bond.

Besides, how can you lot say he was Fleming's Bond, when he doesn't make a single derogatory remark about short or gay people?

Napoleon Han Solo

Haha, another great answer from Sidewinder...and I'm glad to see another poster who uses other popular heroes for comparison and contrast. In fact I have thought an interesting discussion topic would be to see who are the other favourite heroes of Bond fans. Hmmm...

Higgins

One of my favourites is LTK, but for the exotic places (for someones who is from Germany) but not because of Tim.

I don't take him the rough side, I don't take him, that he just takes a woman for his own pleasure or for the sake of his mission and then throws her away, like Sean and Roger could do.

Look, what a lethal animal Daniel craig plays in CR and you know what I mean, when you see killing scenes with Tim Dalton.


I personally think, he's personally too good and soft and he is unable to overplay the soft part of his personality. A very good personal attitude, but not really perfect to play a rough-edged and sinister Bond.

Greetings

Markus

darenhat

In regards to Dalton, there is one thing in particular that I like about him, and which I think is very much like the literary Bond. There's a bit of 'mystique' about him, which I think he and Connery shared. In my mind, Bond was a person that you liked, but you could never really get to know. He would only let people 'in' to a certain point, after which you find a cold, unyielding impenetrable wall. I get that sense from both Connery and Dalton. Bond could be friendly and amicable, but at some point he'll turn into an unemotional, business-like machine. That quality in Dalton appeals to me.

Moore was very likeable, and could also be tough on occasions, but at no point did I feel he had the psychological scars to be Bond.

Brosnan to me seemed too emotional. He seemed too eager to tell people about his feelings and, to me, that's not Bond.

Lazenby and Craig both have given us excellent portrayals, but for me the joy of watching them is diminished by the fact that the character is not portrayed as someone I personally would like to spend time with.

To sum, if Bond were invited to a party, men and women would all wonder "Who is that?" and try to find out with only limited success. I feel this would happen with Connery and Dalton. Moore and Brosnan would be to easy to get to know, while with Lazenby and Craig's Bond, people would be saying "Who invited this guy?"

Willie Garvin

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With reference to comments that were considered inappropriate for this discussion and the poster has since apologised for and removed.
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Apparently you have no problem sharing rumors either.Please understand that unfounded allegations can still hurt people--especially if enough individuals are willing to accept them as the truth.Comments like this can also be actionable, and surely no one wants to see something said off-the-cuff at AJB to become the basis of a lawsuit that might close us down.

SiCo

Bondtoys I really don't see what his sexuality has to do with this discussion, especially as these are unfounded rumours. It's not really a line to backup your argument.

Please refrain from using unfounded rumours as part of an argument, this site will not be used to further such rumours in anyway.

Thank you

Prince Kamal Khan

darenhat wrote:

In regards to Dalton, there is one thing in particular that I like about him, and which I think is very much like the literary Bond. There's a bit of 'mystique' about him, which I think he and Connery shared. In my mind, Bond was a person that you liked, but you could never really get to know. He would only let people 'in' to a certain point, after which you find a cold, unyielding impenetrable wall. I get that sense from both Connery and Dalton. Bond could be friendly and amicable, but at some point he'll turn into an unemotional, business-like machine. That quality in Dalton appeals to me.

Moore was very likeable, and could also be tough on occasions, but at no point did I feel he had the psychological scars to be Bond.

Brosnan to me seemed too emotional. He seemed too eager to tell people about his feelings and, to me, that's not Bond.

Lazenby and Craig both have given us excellent portrayals, but for me the joy of watching them is diminished by the fact that the character is not portrayed as someone I personally would like to spend time with.

To sum, if Bond were invited to a party, men and women would all wonder "Who is that?" and try to find out with only limited success. I feel this would happen with Connery and Dalton. Moore and Brosnan would be to easy to get to know, while with Lazenby and Craig's Bond, people would be saying "Who invited this guy?"

Interesting points,darenhat. Moore is definitely the most likeable Bond but Dalton definitely portrays Fleming's burnt out assasin much more credibly. His Bond and Craig's Bond are the same Bond only Craig is this Bond at the beginning of his career and Dalton's the same Bond at the end of his career. And both of them are infinitely superior to Brosnan's Bond IMHO.

Prince Kamal Khan

Lazenby wrote:

I've never been a huge Timothy Dalton fan (he's probably my least favorite Bond) and for years I have been unable to put a finger on precisely why. A fellow at another board had the following to say, and it more or less captures exactly my misgivings about Dalton:

"Dalton doesn't deserve degrading, necessarily, but he did miss out on some key elements of the Bond character. Firstly, he just wasn't all that cool. He was often very tense, and he lacked that relaxed, nonchalant attitude that I feel is very important. Secondly, his relationships with the ladies was laughable - the dude has no sex appeal."

Key elements of the character of Bond indeed (the cinematic Bond at least). What say you all?

I am surprised that Dalton's your least favorite Bond since I see OHMSS, FRWL and CR are your top 3 Bond films. Dalton's Bond would have fit perfectly into any of those 3 films. I think you should give TLD and LTK another try, Lazenby.

Lazenby

Prince Kamal Khan wrote:

I am surprised that Dalton's your least favorite Bond since I see OHMSS, FRWL and CR are your top 3 Bond films. Dalton's Bond would have fit perfectly into any of those 3 films. I think you should give TLD and LTK another try, Lazenby.

I spoke too soon when I said that; having watched a number of the old films for the first time in years very recently I now consider Brosnan my least favorite Bond, with Dalton and Moore tied at a notch above but both well below Connery, Craig and Lazenby.

What it boils down to, for me, is that whole coolness/toughness/sex appeal factor. I should say at the outset that I have never read any of Ian Fleming's books, so I'm not judging from that angle. I first got into the Bond movies as a boy of about 10 or so, and the films/Bonds I enjoyed the most were those who left me wanting to be that guy on the screen. Connery and Lazenby had that effect on me in spades-- in part I think because they weren't so much acting as letting aspects of their own personalities shine through. Watching Connery's films (and Lazenby's film) I was left more-or-less convinced that they really were that tough, that they really did have that effect on women and that, perhaps, they really could be depended on to save the world if the task ever fell on their shoulders. Still, to this day, when I watch their movies the 12-year-old sits in awe and just wants to be them. Moore didn't come across that way at all; I don't believe for a second that he would last very long in a serious fight and he seemed to coast through his movies where his predecessors relied on their innate toughess, wits and personal magnetism. Moore, however, at his best was quite entertaining, so he gets points from me for that.

Dalton, on the other hand, while approaching the part in (the correct) more serious tone than Roger Moore, nonetheless lacked those innate qualities that, to me, are an essential aspect of the appeal of Bond, namely, to quote the original post, he "wasn't all that cool" and "had zero sex-appeal". To be a Bond fan in the Dalton era, it seemed, one found themselves engulfed by the same sort of shame as might afflict someone who wears a pair of Spock ears to a Star Trek convention. The appeal of Bond, in my eyes, is that he is someone who every man wants to be and every woman wants to be with. Thus the most effective portrayers of Bond (again, to me) are those individuals who, in real life, actually embody those characteristics in some measure. Connery had it, Lazenby had it, Moore didn't have it, but he used his own strengths (for better or for worse) to make up for it. Dalton, I am afraid, didn't have it and thus he doesn't rank very high in my eyes, despite how much he might resemble the Bond of the books.

This all being said I plan on watching TLD again very soon, and who knows, my opinion might change once more.

blueman

I always expect Dalton to get killed as Bond, he just doesn't appear to be the guy to come out on top in the end. I really do think he was miscast, looks the part but wasn't ever able to embody it despite his notable acting talent. Brosnan made a better Bond, IMO.

Lazenby

blueman wrote:

Brosnan made a better Bond, IMO.

Perhaps; I keep waffling on that particular point.

Napoleon Han Solo

blueman wrote:

I always expect Dalton to get killed as Bond, he just doesn't appear to be the guy to come out on top in the end. I really do think he was miscast, looks the part but wasn't ever able to embody it despite his notable acting talent. Brosnan made a better Bond, IMO.

It's funny...I say this respectfully, but that's WHY I like Dalton...or one of the reasons, exactly because he seems more vulnerable. And I don't mean emotionally, physically he seems like he can be killed. I prefer Dalton because he took risks Brosnan didn't, in his portrayal. He had Steve McQueen intensity and coolness rather than Cary Grant smoothness. I'm not saying I dislike Brosnan, I like all the Bonds, but Brozzy was sort of a mini-Moore. Or possibly a conceptual Moore, to put it more kindly.

Lazenby

Napoleon Han Solo wrote:

He had Steve McQueen intensity and coolness

I have to disagree here. Before I do though, I have often thought that Steve McQueen would have made an interesting Bond. Regarding your comment, I think it's fair to say that he had McQueen's intensity, but he most certainly didn't have his natural toughness (McQueen, like Lazenby, was a decorated Marine) and because of this his intensity lacked authenticity, which made it seem like overkill (never mind the fact that I can easily picture Dalton reciting Shakespeare in tights, something utterly impossible for me to do in the cases of Connery, Craig and Lazenby). Furthermore, Dalton's lacking in toughness I think struck a deathblow his "coolness" because, I would argue, Bondian coolness flows from toughness much like a Jedi's strength flows from the force.

John Drake

wrote:

I can easily picture Dalton reciting Shakespeare in tights, something utterly impossible for me to do in the cases of Connery,

Ish Thish a dagger I shee before me?

I dunno about Shakespeare in tights, but I can certainly see a young Connery making a fine Macbeth on film. It's a brutal play. It would have suited him.

Lazenby

John Drake wrote:

I dunno about Shakespeare in tights, but I can certainly see a young Connery making a fine Macbeth on film. It's a brutal play. It would have suited him.

He would have made a good Hamlet too.

Barbel

John Drake wrote:

I dunno about Shakespeare in tights, but I can certainly see a young Connery making a fine Macbeth on film. It's a brutal play. It would have suited him.

Didn't he do a TV version of Macbeth in his pre-Bond days? I seem to remember reading that in a biography.

Napoleon Han Solo

Lazenby wrote:

Napoleon Han Solo wrote:

He had Steve McQueen intensity and coolness

I have to disagree here. Before I do though, I have often thought that Steve McQueen would have made an interesting Bond. Regarding your comment, I think it's fair to say that he had McQueen's intensity, but he most certainly didn't have his natural toughness (McQueen, like Lazenby, was a decorated Marine) and because of this his intensity lacked authenticity, which made it seem like overkill (never mind the fact that I can easily picture Dalton reciting Shakespeare in tights, something utterly impossible for me to do in the cases of Connery, Craig and Lazenby). Furthermore, Dalton's lacking in toughness I think struck a deathblow his "coolness" because, I would argue, Bondian coolness flows from toughness much like a Jedi's strength flows from the force.

Can we agree that Craig has McQueen qualities? Starting of course with close cropped blonde hair and piercing blue eyes, lol.

Very nice use of a Star Wars metaphor, my friend. I'm always interested to know what others heroes and franchises Bond fans are into.

Prince Kamal Khan

Lazenby wrote:

Prince Kamal Khan wrote:

I am surprised that Dalton's your least favorite Bond since I see OHMSS, FRWL and CR are your top 3 Bond films. Dalton's Bond would have fit perfectly into any of those 3 films. I think you should give TLD and LTK another try, Lazenby.

I spoke too soon when I said that; having watched a number of the old films for the first time in years very recently I now consider Brosnan my least favorite Bond, with Dalton and Moore tied at a notch above but both well below Connery, Craig and Lazenby.

What it boils down to, for me, is that whole coolness/toughness/sex appeal factor. I should say at the outset that I have never read any of Ian Fleming's books, so I'm not judging from that angle. I first got into the Bond movies as a boy of about 10 or so, and the films/Bonds I enjoyed the most were those who left me wanting to be that guy on the screen. Connery and Lazenby had that effect on me in spades-- in part I think because they weren't so much acting as letting aspects of their own personalities shine through. Watching Connery's films (and Lazenby's film) I was left more-or-less convinced that they really were that tough, that they really did have that effect on women and that, perhaps, they really could be depended on to save the world if the task ever fell on their shoulders. Still, to this day, when I watch their movies the 12-year-old sits in awe and just wants to be them. Moore didn't come across that way at all; I don't believe for a second that he would last very long in a serious fight and he seemed to coast through his movies where his predecessors relied on their innate toughess, wits and personal magnetism. Moore, however, at his best was quite entertaining, so he gets points from me for that.

Dalton, on the other hand, while approaching the part in (the correct) more serious tone than Roger Moore, nonetheless lacked those innate qualities that, to me, are an essential aspect of the appeal of Bond, namely, to quote the original post, he "wasn't all that cool" and "had zero sex-appeal". To be a Bond fan in the Dalton era, it seemed, one found themselves engulfed by the same sort of shame as might afflict someone who wears a pair of Spock ears to a Star Trek convention. The appeal of Bond, in my eyes, is that he is someone who every man wants to be and every woman wants to be with. Thus the most effective portrayers of Bond (again, to me) are those individuals who, in real life, actually embody those characteristics in some measure. Connery had it, Lazenby had it, Moore didn't have it, but he used his own strengths (for better or for worse) to make up for it. Dalton, I am afraid, didn't have it and thus he doesn't rank very high in my eyes, despite how much he might resemble the Bond of the books.

This all being said I plan on watching TLD again very soon, and who knows, my opinion might change once more.

TLD rocks and is one of my top 3 Bond films. Dalton makes an excellent debut as Bond and the 1st 20 minutes make for a very faithful adaptation of Fleming's short story. TLD, along with TB, FRWL, OHMSS, CR, and DN makes IMHO for one of the best "faithful-to-Fleming" source Bond films and Dalton fits the Bond role like a glove in this film. I recommend you read the TLD short story(if you haven't read it yet) before you try the film again. I read TLD before I saw the film the first time and it greatly enhanced my enjoyment of it.

LTK suffers from too much "Miami Vice"-era syndrome but Dalton's performance along with Davi's Sanchez make it one of the more interesting Bond/Villain relationships in the series and the film itself is a good midrange series entry.

Napoleon Han Solo

Actually, I realize now what actor Dalton does remind me of, with his style. Laurence Harvey. Could Harvey have been Bond? He's fairly smooth in some scenes in Room At the Top, and he most certainly could have played dangerous.

Krassno Granitski

Prince Kamal Khan wrote:

TLD, along with TB, FRWL, OHMSS, CR, and DN makes IMHO for one of the best "faithful-to-Fleming" source Bond films

Off topic. But I really wish people would stop commenting on how faithful CR is. The basic plot is the same, but the meat of the story is very different then the novel I read. Carry on.

Prince Kamal Khan

Krassno Granitski wrote:

Prince Kamal Khan wrote:

TLD, along with TB, FRWL, OHMSS, CR, and DN makes IMHO for one of the best "faithful-to-Fleming" source Bond films

Off topic. But I really wish people would stop commenting on how faithful CR is. The basic plot is the same, but the meat of the story is very different then the novel I read. Carry on.

By post-1970 EON standards, CR is an amazingly faithful-to-Fleming-source screen adaptation.

Krassno Granitski

Prince Kamal Khan wrote:

Krassno Granitski wrote:

Prince Kamal Khan wrote:

TLD, along with TB, FRWL, OHMSS, CR, and DN makes IMHO for one of the best "faithful-to-Fleming" source Bond films

Off topic. But I really wish people would stop commenting on how faithful CR is. The basic plot is the same, but the meat of the story is very different then the novel I read. Carry on.

By post-1970 EON standards, CR is an amazingly faithful-to-Fleming-source screen adaptation.

Sad but Very true. -{

Prince Kamal Khan

Lazenby wrote:

I've never been a huge Timothy Dalton fan (he's probably my least favorite Bond) and for years I have been unable to put a finger on precisely why. A fellow at another board had the following to say, and it more or less captures exactly my misgivings about Dalton:

"Dalton doesn't deserve degrading, necessarily, but he did miss out on some key elements of the Bond character. Firstly, he just wasn't all that cool. He was often very tense, and he lacked that relaxed, nonchalant attitude that I feel is very important. Secondly, his relationships with the ladies was laughable - the dude has no sex appeal."

Key elements of the character of Bond indeed (the cinematic Bond at least). What say you all?

Lazenby, here's a tribute to Bond with Dalton and your namesake to the tune of "You Know My Name". I think you will enjoy it-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NbFew-maOo

No pressure, but hopefully it might help you like Dalton more.

Lazenby

Prince Kamal Khan wrote:

No pressure, but hopefully it might help you like Dalton more.

That was awesome! It made me appreciate George Lazenby, LTK, the theme from CR a lot more. Don't know about Dalton yet though...get back to me