Why Brosnan lost it.

EaglemanEagleman Posts: 26MI6 Agent
Having become a real fan of the Bond films while Pierce was still at the helm, I was devastated when EON let him go. But looking back over his films I can see that his reign as Bond was not all that good.

Brosnan made four films. All with different Directors. Only two, Martin Campbell and Michael Apted, were good enough to handle a 007 film. My favourite Brosnan film is 'The World Is Not Enough'. Because this was the only film that Pierce shown us any emotion that Bond had in the novels. When he kills Renard, you see he nailed Bond with the line "She's waiting for you". It had a very cold feel that the assassin that Bond is would have said.

Where as 'Tomorrow Never Dies & Die Another Day' were more fitting to Roger Moore's Bond. They were comic strip films. Much like 'Goldfinger, You Only Live Twice, Diamonds Are Forever, Man With The Golden Gun, Spy Who Loved Me, Moonraker, Octopussy & View To A Kill'.

For me Bond is not a comic strip. I like it gritty. The best Bonds are the ones like Dalton's, Lazenby's. Then 'Dr No, From Russia With Love and Casino Royale'. I hope that Daniel Craig can stay on as Bond for another 3 or 4 films. And that EON stay on the path of realism. Let Bond do what he's best at. Killing, not lying space ships or driving invisible cars!
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Comments

  • Sir Hillary BraySir Hillary Bray College of ArmsPosts: 2,174MI6 Agent
    Can't see I disagree much with your assessment of Brosnan's films, but your points really have little to do with Brosnan himself. I would argue it was the writers and directors who "lost it", not Pierce. The lead actor in a Bond film is never "at the helm".
    Hilly...you old devil!
  • Harry PalmerHarry Palmer Somewhere in the past ...Posts: 325MI6 Agent
    Yes, I agree that Campbell and Apted were the best directors in the Bronsan era, and that TWINE was Brosnan's best entry. DAD suffered from incompetent directing, but I think also from poor dialogue.
    But most of all, what I find lacking in Brosnan is his interpretation of Bond. It was good but safe. The acting was solid but it added nothing to the character. For this reason I find Brosnan believable as Bond whilst I'm watching the movies but instantly forgettable when I think back at the Bond character in general.


    I also like Bond to be gritty rather than cartoonish, hence my prediliction for Dalton and the Connery of FRWL, and my appreciation of CR.
    1. Cr, 2. Ltk, 3. Tld, 4. Qs, 5. Ohmss, 6. Twine, 7. Tnd, 8. Tswlm, 9. Frwl, 10. Tb, 11. Ge, 12. Gf, 13. Dn, 14. Mr, 15. Op, 16. Yolt, 17. Sf, 18. Daf, 19. Avtak, 20. Sp, 21. Fyeo, 22. Dad, 23. Lald, 24. Tmwtgg
  • EaglemanEagleman Posts: 26MI6 Agent
    Before Craig came along, I think Dalton was the closest we'd come to seeing James Bond from the books. People tell me that I shouldn't compere any actor to the Bond of the books. But if I was an actor hired to play Bond I would do what Dalton did, and re-read the books to bring that character to life. Connery played Bond how Terence Young wanted him too. Lazenby tried to be Connery, Moore played himself. Dalton was Bond, Brosnan thought he'd got it and Criag is without doubt James Bond from the novels.
  • actonsteveactonsteve Posts: 299MI6 Agent
    Probably the writers, directors and producers are more to blame about his era of 007 then the actor himself.

    But...

    What exactly was Pierce Brosnans Bond all about - Connery, Dalton, Craig and Moore all had a Bond you could latch on to. One you could define. Brosnan just seemed like a safe pair of hands. There was nothing distinctive about him.

    He reminds me of David Tennant's Dr Who - attractive, young, female friendly - but ultimately soulless...
  • arthur pringlearthur pringle SpacePosts: 366MI6 Agent
    I think Brosnan was better than the material he was often given. I do think his films should have had more witty dialogue and less of the innuendo laden banter that made Bond's first scene with Jinx almost unwatchable.
  • 00-Agent00-Agent CaliforniaPosts: 453MI6 Agent
    I think Brosnan was better than the material he was often given. I do think his films should have had more witty dialogue and less of the innuendo laden banter that made Bond's first scene with Jinx almost unwatchable.

    Couldn't agree more about that first scene with Jinx. I cringe every time I watch it. As for Brosnan I think he was a great Bond. All the actors put their on spin on Bond and for the most part they have all been good in there own ways, and for their era. I do think that Brosnan was let down by the material but in spite of that gave us four good films.
    "A blunt instrument wielded by a Government department. Hard, ruthless, sardonic, fatalistic. He likes gambling, golf, fast motor cars. All his movements are relaxed and economical". Ian Fleming
  • SteedSteed Posts: 134MI6 Agent
    Yeah, the innuendos in Die Another Day were just awful- the worst ever written for the series, imho.

    I would agree that Pierce was poorly served by the writers- there is nothing wrong with him whatsoever, imho. He had the potential to be one of the best Bonds, as Goldeneye shows, but I feel TND and DAD weren't just comic book but were too glossy for their own good. DAD was the most soulless Bond film ever (after the first half hour or so, which is fairly decent), imho, and Bond was basically just a catalyst for bad one-liners and big explosions. Every character was poorly written and acted, really. I think Casino Royale showed up a fair proportion of the Brosnan era for what it really was.
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    I think Brosnan was better than the material he was often given.

    This I tend to agree with, yet just as often he was worse than the material he was given, IMO. His now you see me act, now you don't Bond was ultimately a failure, and he shares equally in that blame. IMO.

    He was far, far better in non-Bond films, more consistent with his acting choices and stronger in his characters. For some daft reason I've never been able to figure out, Bond just seemed to flummox him, at the weirdest times too--meeting Onatopp, meeting Wade, meeting Carver and Wai Lin, looking at weapons in Wai Lin's hideout, Carver's death, with M telling him about Elektra (and all the Dr. Warmflash stuff), in the casino and again in the casino with Elektra, trading the sneakers, the death of Renard, the kiss of life, meeting Jinx, before the swordfight, in the ice bar with Frost and Jinx, getting into bed with Frost...off the top of my head. Just no rhyme or reason to it, there are just as many amazingly similar scenes that he nailed. Schizo-weird.

    The writers/directors/producers did him a disservice, sure. But he (perplexedly) helped stir the dish that was fed to him. His was the one step forward, one step back Bond...maybe that's part of why folks get the feeling he didn't have his "thing" like the other Bond actors did? As much as he annoys me in the role for choices he made with the material given to him, can't help but imagine him in a Bond film that actually played to his strengths. Same thing could be said for Dalton IMO, neither actor got the Bond film they could've soared in, EON was still too enamored with the Bond (and revenue) that Moore built. And why not? As dodgy as the past couple decades of Bond have been, they made a wad of cash for everyone involved in the making of, and entertained millions.

    I can honor Brosnan for one thing--showing up. He kept on coming, even if he was on shaky ground at times. His considerable old-school movie star polish and charm carried not only him in the role, but the series, and through some of the weakest surrounding efforts imaginable (outside of the utterly unimaginative Glen, of course). Was in only one passable Bond film (TND), but thanks for the fish anyway, and the bigger blame was definately EON's (I know the apologists out there will say, it was all EON, but watching his performances it's pretty easy to see that it took two for that particular Bond tango...IMHO).
  • arthur pringlearthur pringle SpacePosts: 366MI6 Agent
    edited March 2007
    Blueman will be hosting a tribute to Pierce Brosnan later in the year. The event will feature ice-sculptures and be capped by a screening of Die Another Day. Please PM him for the details.
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
    After a 6-year haitus, I believe EON had a desire to bring back the kind of Bond that people liked and remembered, i.e., "classic Bond," new and improved in a sense that an update to the 90's was needed, giving us more explosions, machine guns, girls of Bond's equal and fantastic plots...and to encapsulate these elements like the crowning touch of a hood ornament, I guess Brosnan fit the bill and he did a good job to fulfill these expectations irregardless of differing opinions, dissastisfaction with the material, unfulfilled potential, etc.
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    Blueman will be hosting a tribute to Pierce Brosnan later in the year. The event will feature ice-sculptures and be capped by a screening of Die Another Day. Please PM him for the details.

    Lol. And pretty much agree with supes's summation as well (it's shorter than mine, always a plus, I tend to ramble...).
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 37,854Chief of Staff
    Brosnan was never Fleming's Bond- neither were Moore and Connery for that matter. What they were was the right Bond for their times.

    Dalton and Craig have a right to be considered as the Bond of the books (and Eagleman, that does matter despite what others may have said). My vote goes to Dalton in that respect; Craig may supersede that, given time and the right scripts, but IMO he hasn't yet. Neither of these two gents possess the sheer star quality (a difficult thing to define though it undeniably exists) of Connery, Moore and Brosnan that endeared them to the general public, which does not consist of Bond purists although it brings in the bucks. If the Bond actor's non-Bond films still succeed, then the public has warmed to their charisma- Moore did Gold, Shout At The Devil, etc, Brosnan had Thomas Crown etc, Connery's are legion; Dalton's Hawks went nowhere, Craig is still to be tested.

    Brosnan's Bond was a little more than superficial and to his credit he's on record as wanting more from the role. GE was a restatement as it had to be; TND (much as I love it) was 007 by the numbers. His success in the role led to the more character-driven TWINE which did have some meat on the bone. DAD's failings were not his doing (the CGI wasn't his fault and he didn't direct the film).

    At the end of the day the Bond films are producer's films- they don't "belong" to the actor, director or writer.
  • Prince Kamal KhanPrince Kamal Khan Posts: 277MI6 Agent
    edited March 2007
    Eagleman wrote:
    Where as 'Tomorrow Never Dies & Die Another Day' were more fitting to Roger Moore's Bond. They were comic strip films. Much like 'Goldfinger, You Only Live Twice, Diamonds Are Forever, Man With The Golden Gun, Spy Who Loved Me, Moonraker, Octopussy & View To A Kill'.

    Accurate depiction of Brosnan's 2 "worst" Bond films which actually are the two I like best of his entries in the 007 series. Brosnan's Bond was essentially the 2nd coming of Roger Moore. Like Moore, Brosnan suited the fantasy Bond films better. I think Brosnan was out of his range in his attempts to be "serious". GE would have been so much better suited to Dalton who it was originally written for and TWINE suffered from an overdose of soap opera histrionics. TWINE was clearly supposed to be Bronsan's OHMSS but the excellent CR as well as the classic OHMSS have made TWINE look really weak by comparison.
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    Agree with the Prince, as much as Brosnan may have publically pined for more meaty material, he certainly was spotty rising to the good stuff he was given. Just never saw the consistency to warrant a more serious overall Brosnan Bond, I think EON was correct to use him as they did, much as I'd like to believe he had a better Bond in him. Topsy-turvy Bond.
  • Sir Hillary BraySir Hillary Bray College of ArmsPosts: 2,174MI6 Agent
    Hey Si, can you please start up a new PIERCE BROSNAN SUCKS forum? It would be devoted solely to threads highlighting the weaknesses of EON's fifth James Bond actor. Given the volume and passion of recent posts on Mr. Brosnan, I think it would soon be the most populated forum on the board.
    Hilly...you old devil!
  • Thomas CrownThomas Crown Posts: 119MI6 Agent
    As someone who had their "formative years" occur during the Brosnan era, I've always had a sentimental attachment to his fimls and interpretaion of 007. As time as gone on however, and I've matured as both an individual and, I think, as a film watcher, I've found sentimental value to really be all that I have left for the Brosnan era.

    There is little doubt in my mind Brosnan was a good choice for 007. He had been a favorite for the part for years, he fit the popular conception of the character, and he seemed to be not just an interpreter of the role, but a fan of the series. On top of that, he had a strong list of "intangibles" that made him seem great for Bond: the first movie he ever saw was Goldfinger, he was born the same year Casino Royale was written, his wife had been in a Bond film, he has blue grey eyes and a scar on his right cheek/upper lip (gotten during a Bond movie no less). Combine that with GoldenEye being the first Bond film I ever saw, along with the rest of his films having good memories attached to them, and its hard for me not to enjoy looking back on his era.

    Objectively however, I don't think we were offerred much in terms of quality. The dialouge really wasn't all that great, the action, though cool in some instances, began to consume the film not even in an interesting way, the plots seemed to all lack a focus, and Brosnan, for all of his action scenes, didn't really come off as a suave assasin, just suave.

    This really isn't an indictment of the Brosnan era either. Since 1969, the series really has been like a sine wave in terms of quality with only recently have we achieved the hights of authenticity to the character, and great entertainment that formed the early films. That being said, I disagree with the notion that Brosnan didn't try hard, or didnt work with what he had. Most fans recognize, even in the worst parts of his films, Brosnan carries himself very well. And he did work to expand the influence the Fleming source material would have on the films. In short, his era provides an evolution that was necessary for us to get to Casino Royale. Perhaps our problem is we all expected Brosnan to be the Bond to end all Bonds, and really, he simply fit into an evolution of the character. Perhaps in ten years time after this sets in we will be more receptive to the Brosnan era and take it for what it was and led to.
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Brozzer was best in your movie, Thomas Crown! That was his best Bond performance. The EON producers were briefly shamed in doing right by him for TWINE, but then back to usual for his finale...

    As for why he lost it, well, DAD crashed the series really. Not his fault, but it seemed like a finale anyway with the all the jokey visual references, plus once you have an invisible car then it really is all over. You can't just move on and pretend it didn't happen, as they more or less did with MR.

    So the time was ripe for a reboot, especially as they had Casino Royale at last.

    On top of which, Brozzer began lobbying Tarantino to do CR. Maybe he knew this was gonna be the next film and wanted in, maybe he couldn't resist a slice of A-list talent after inappropriate Bond hacks (though fat lot of good it did him really with the likes of Boorman, Attenborough, Burton, Tierman and so on - he still wasn't an A-list actor, always a nearly man), whatever it would have put EON's noses out of joint for him to be doing this. So Brosnan had to go...
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • SteedSteed Posts: 134MI6 Agent
    Yes, my beef with the Brosnan era is NOT the man himself, and never has been. I think he could have been one of the best Bonds based on Goldeneye, which I think stands proudly against the best of other eras (if you excuse Boris). I could not really say that about his other films.
  • Moore Not LessMoore Not Less Posts: 1,095MI6 Agent
    Hey Si, can you please start up a new PIERCE BROSNAN SUCKS forum? It would be devoted solely to threads highlighting the weaknesses of EON's fifth James Bond actor. Given the volume and passion of recent posts on Mr. Brosnan, I think it would soon be the most populated forum on the board.

    The king is dead. Long live the king. There's a new man in town and he's tougher and has more grit than his "pretty boy" predecessor.

    A year ago Daniel Craig was the great pariah, now he's the second coming, praise the lord. Whereas, the previously popular Pierce Brosnan is now the great pretender. My, how fickle Bond fans can be.
  • superadosuperado Regent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
    Hey Si, can you please start up a new PIERCE BROSNAN SUCKS forum? It would be devoted solely to threads highlighting the weaknesses of EON's fifth James Bond actor. Given the volume and passion of recent posts on Mr. Brosnan, I think it would soon be the most populated forum on the board.

    The king is dead. Long live the king. There's a new man in town and he's tougher and has more grit than his "pretty boy" predecessor.

    A year ago Daniel Craig was the great pariah, now he's the second coming, praise the lord. Whereas, the previously popular Pierce Brosnan is now the great pretender. My, how fickle Bond fans can be.

    You're not trying to incite more division, are you, MNL?
    "...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
  • LoeffelholzLoeffelholz The United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
    Well...if the actor truly is more or less devoid of blame for a misfire...to me, this thread comes off as an argument for a reboot {:)
    Check out my Amazon author page! Mark Loeffelholz
    "I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
    "Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    Well...if the actor truly is more or less devoid of blame for a misfire...to me, this thread comes off as an argument for a reboot {:)
    It may also mean that perhaps you should evaluate OP. :D
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • SteedSteed Posts: 134MI6 Agent
    I sometimes wonder whether I'm alone here in liking all the actors that played Bond, just not necessarily all the films that they did.

    But yes, I too NEVER want another of those big budget, hi-tech, soulless extravaganzas that so characterised the Brosnan era. I still liked him as a Bond though.
  • Moore Not LessMoore Not Less Posts: 1,095MI6 Agent
    edited March 2007
    superado wrote:
    Hey Si, can you please start up a new PIERCE BROSNAN SUCKS forum? It would be devoted solely to threads highlighting the weaknesses of EON's fifth James Bond actor. Given the volume and passion of recent posts on Mr. Brosnan, I think it would soon be the most populated forum on the board.

    The king is dead. Long live the king. There's a new man in town and he's tougher and has more grit than his "pretty boy" predecessor.

    A year ago Daniel Craig was the great pariah, now he's the second coming, praise the lord. Whereas, the previously popular Pierce Brosnan is now the great pretender. My, how fickle Bond fans can be.

    You're not trying to incite more division, are you, MNL?

    Well, there is at least a grain of truth in what I said, but I'll happily admit I exaggerated things for dramatic effect. One thing's for sure though, it really was not intended to incite more division.
  • Gassy ManGassy Man USAPosts: 2,972MI6 Agent
    Brosnan’s strength is in light comedy, not heavy drama, and his decision to try to play Bond at times as a more serious figure was the biggest problem. He was far better as the smooth Thomas Crown, a figure more Bond-like for Brosnan than his Bond. Wade and Purvis are simpleton writers, that’s for sure, but they also seemed to want to accommodate Brosnan’s desire to have it both ways, and the result was scripts that never really did either the fantasy or the dramatic moments particularly well. I wouldn’t blame any of the directors, not even the unfairly maligned Lee Tamahori, for the less than stellar results so much as Brosnan himself and the resulting scripts, though I still think of all of them, Martin Campbell was the weakest director with his straight-to-cable approach on the vastly overrated “Goldeneye.” It stuns me that he’s the same guy who directed “Casino Royale.”
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 37,854Chief of Staff
    Steed wrote:
    I sometimes wonder whether I'm alone here in liking all the actors that played Bond, just not necessarily all the films that they did.

    No, you're not alone. All of the actors brought their own contributions to the party.
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    I think too that all brought something to the role, but all also had their moments of not-so-good--some more than others. I also think Brosnan is getting a lot of focus right now within the Bond fan community because his films are still recent, I mean nobody is leaving the forum because of swipes at Moore's Bond or Dalton's Bond or Lazenby's Bond, yet such swipes occur daily (while other members stoutly defend "their" guy--Moore Not Less's board name is, well, Moore Not Less, can't get more pointed than that, lol). People have opinions on Bond, and state them, over and over, here, on a Bond forum, and the most topical Bonds get the most ink for and against. Brosnan was wildly successful with the general public (box office), got mixed reviews from fans (just my feel of it), and is Bond no more. There's a lot there to talk about and debate, IMHO, and will be for some time too even with the new guy in the role. The Brosnan-lovers should stick around IMO, not like his films up and disappeared. I may not like him as Bond, but hard to argue his success in the role, not just at the box office, but with a signifigant portion of the fanbase. Bond belongs to them as well, just because we debate such things incessesntly doesn't preclude that simple fact. After 40+ years, hard for Bond not to have a fairly wide swathe of gray in his hair, lol.

    Sorry if I've rambled, just linking some random thoughts, hope it's not gone to off-topic.
  • Moore Not LessMoore Not Less Posts: 1,095MI6 Agent
    blueman wrote:
    I mean nobody is leaving the forum because of swipes at Moore's Bond or Dalton's Bond or Lazenby's Bond, yet such swipes occur daily (while other members stoutly defend "their" guy--Moore Not Less's board name is, well, Moore Not Less, can't get more pointed than that, lol).

    Moore Not Less, can't get any better than that. :D

    Of course, I wish Roger was more popular with the Bond community than he actually is, but I'm not planning on leaving because of the regular swipes.
  • bluemanblueman PDXPosts: 1,667MI6 Agent
    Thank heaven for that, your grace and wisdom would be sorely missed. I might add, your support of Rog has put me in mind to re-examine my own feelings on his Bonds, and where once there were no Moore DVDs, now there are two: LALD and TSWLM. And both get some fond viewing.

    Back on topic, all the chatter on this board about Brosnan has definately made me look closer at his films/performances, and some things I've found I like better than I remember, but alas some things are worse, and the balance still definately weighs to the latter. I get the impression, posterity is gonna be less kind to him than say Moore...I dunno, maybe not, but to reset Eagleman's opening statement of this thread:

    "Having become a real fan of the Bond films while Pierce was still at the helm, I was devastated when EON let him go. But looking back over his films I can see that his reign as Bond was not all that good."

    Nutshell.
  • LoeffelholzLoeffelholz The United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
    Dan Same wrote:
    It may also mean that perhaps you should evaluate OP. :D

    I'm fully prepared to blame whomever is most responsible for that one :v
    Check out my Amazon author page! Mark Loeffelholz
    "I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
    "Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
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