Almost $26 million away from a billion. Are you happy yet Rogue? :v
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Almost $26 million away from a billion. Are you happy yet Rogue? :v
Different websites have different totals, especially due to the fact that numbers for certain markets like Japan (which Boxofficemojo never seems to be able to track) are often excluded. Thenumbers.com has a worldwide total of $984 million; showbizdata.com has the worldwide gross at $530 million, which when combined with the $524 domestic take would put it at well over $1 billion worldwide.
Bottom line is it made lots of cash, earned back its costs several times over, and will make even more money when it's released on home video. All that will hopefully bode well for future movies based on DC comics characters (like Green Lantern :v).
Bottom line is it made lots of cash, earned back its costs several times over, and will make even more money when it's released on home video.
It has been an extraordinary success, and in fact, I'm ashamed to say that I've aided and abetted in its success by recently seeing it for a second time. ;%
All that will hopefully bode well for future movies based on DC comics characters (like Green Lantern :v).
Or Flash. :v Although I would happily see any superhero film, the one superhero whom I would give anything to see on the big screen is the Flash (probably my second favourite superhero after Spidey). I also would love to see a sequel to The Phantom, but that aint ever gonna happen.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
All that will hopefully bode well for future movies based on DC comics characters (like Green Lantern :v).
Or Flash. :v Although I would happily see any superhero film, the one superhero whom I would give anything to see on the big screen is the Flash (probably my second favourite superhero after Spidey).
Yes, but have you ever even read a Flash comic?
I also would love to see a sequel to The Phantom, but that aint ever gonna happen.
Who knows, the success of Dark Knight and Iron Man could lead to another slew of comics inspired movies.
BTW, speaking of Batman, it has just been announced that The Dark Knight will be released on DVD and hi-def BluRay on December 9, 2008. Here's a couple of articles that list all the goodies to be included with the movie:
Seriously, I saw the pilot (movielength) episode of the TV series with John Wesley Shipp, which I adored, and at least one other episode, although I've probably seen three or four episodes in total. I've also seen a few episodes of the JLA animated series, although my love for the Flash is really due to the pilot episode of the show, which for quite a while, I thought was a film. )
Who knows, the success of Dark Knight and Iron Man could lead to another slew of comics inspired movies.
Here's hoping.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
Seriously, I saw the pilot (movielength) episode of the TV series with John Wesley Shipp, which I adored, and at least one other episode, although I've probably seen three or four episodes in total. I've also seen a few episodes of the JLA animated series, although my love for the Flash is really due to the pilot episode of the show, which for quite a while, I thought was a film. )
I used to have that movie on Laser Disk. It wasn't bad, but also not really representative of the true Flash character. The show was born out of the mad success of the 1989 Batman movie and, not surprisingly, it tried to ape a lot of the same qualities: the gothic look to the city, a brooding hero, even the muscle-bound suit - none of which were really true to the Flash character from the comics. The producers even got Danny Elfmann to do the opening music for the show (who's bombastic theme was very reminiscent of the 1989 Batman as well). Barry Allen himself was more of an amalgamation of Barry Allen and Wally West (his successor in the comics, who was also the Flash from the JLA animated shows).
Of course, if you'd read a comic or two you might have known some of that.
As Batman said in the World's Finest episode of STAS, "It helps to be prepared..."
This is my patented Evil Eye sig whenever I hear a statement as ridiculous as the one Dan Same,the stuck-up literary elitist, made. :v
Isn't that accusation considered redundant?
You have him to thank for me pulling the trigger on it... I warned him. Slummin' in a comic book thread yet has never picked one up to immerse in the awesomeness of its pictures & story. :v
It wasn't bad, but also not really representative of the true Flash character....
Of course, if you'd read a comic or two you might have known some of that.
Yes, but why read the comics when I can just turn to you and Rogue? )
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Slummin' in a comic book thread yet has never picked one up to immerse in the awesomeness of its pictures & story. :v
I know, I know. I really should pick up a comic book, but if I did, imagine what that would do to my reputation?
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Slummin' in a comic book thread yet has never picked one up to immerse in the awesomeness of its pictures & story. :v
I know, I know. I really should pick up a comic book, but if I did, imagine what that would do to my reputation?
From where I sit it could only improve it. {:)
NightshooterIn bed with SolitairePosts: 2,917MI6 Agent
edited October 2008
So, now that you guys are done arguing, anybody heard about the next thing from the makers of Smallville?
It's a show about Dick Grayson before he became Robin.
And they are calling him "DJ" Grayson.
I think I'm gonna hurl.
So, now that you guys are done arguing, anybody heard about the next thing from the makers of Smallville?
It's a show about Dick Grayson before he became Robin.
And they are calling him "DJ" Grayson.
I think I'm gonna hurl.
So, now that you guys are done arguing, anybody heard about the next thing from the makers of Smallville?
It's a show about Dick Grayson before he became Robin.
And they are calling him "DJ" Grayson.
I think I'm gonna hurl.
Slummin' in a comic book thread yet has never picked one up to immerse in the awesomeness of its pictures & story. :v
I know, I know. I really should pick up a comic book, but if I did, imagine what that would do to my reputation?
From where I sit it could only improve it. {:)
) Dan is a POSER.
Look he still uses a VCR exclusively, elitists wouldn't dare make a claim like that...
How long have DVD players been available to the public? Long enough for them to be grossly affordable. I KNOW that I'm old school and even I can admit that VCRs can be considered relics.
His rep was compromised the moment that he made that statement. It's no different than still using an 8-track player in my book. ) ) )
Read a comic book already, Dan!!!
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Slummin' in a comic book thread yet has never picked one up to immerse in the awesomeness of its pictures & story. :v
I know, I know. I really should pick up a comic book, but if I did, imagine what that would do to my reputation?
From where I sit it could only improve it. {:)
)
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Look he still uses a VCR exclusively, elitists wouldn't dare make a claim like that...
How long have DVD players been available to the public? Long enough for them to be grossly affordable. I KNOW that I'm old school and even I can admit that VCRs can be considered relics.
His rep was compromised the moment that he made that statement. It's no different than still using an 8-track player in my book. ) ) )
Interesting that you bring this up. :v Last night, I taped a film using a DVD for the first time. It was extraordinary; the quality was magnificent, and I discovered that I'm also able to tape different things on the same DVD and it won't affect what I had previously taped (apparently if I tape something new, it will become a new title. )
Tony, you might find yourself having to answer some questions from me in the future on this, :v as I feel like someone who has finally used a CD for the first time.
BTW, Rogue, I have used a DVD player for quite a while, but until now, not to tape things off television.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Interesting that you bring this up. :v Last night, I taped a film using a DVD for the first time. It was extraordinary; the quality was magnificent, and I discovered that I'm also able to tape different things on the same DVD and it won't affect what I had previously taped (apparently if I tape something new, it will become a new title. )
I seem to recall trying to enlighten you to the benefits of recording with DVDs. Glad to see you're taking your first tentative steps into a larger world...
Tony, you might find yourself having to answer some questions from me in the future on this, :v as I feel like someone who has finally used a CD for the first time.
I'm always happy to help if I can. Feel free to ask away, though I can't guarantee I'll always have an answer.
BTW, Rogue, I have used a DVD player for quite a while, but until now, not to tape things off television.
Time for your first lesson in semantics: we don't tape with DVD's, we record with them. "Taping with a DVD" is an oxymoron. )
BTW, I finally got to see Batman: Gotham Knight (it was on the Cartoon Network) and I have to say I'm really happy I didn't waste my money on this one. The stories are mostly pretty pedestrian, the physical depiction of Bruce Wayne is absolutely ludicrous, and Kevin Conroy's voice seems completely out of place given the character designs and art style. It also doesn't help that Batman is really an afterthought in many of the vignettes and has relatively little onscreen time.
"Deadshot" was the best of the lot and the closest to a more "traditional" Batman adventure; "Killer Croc" was decent (though really marred by lousy animation), the rest were pretty much a wast of time.
I usually enjoy anthology type shows but this was a really ill advised and poorly executed undertaking.
BTW#2, also got to see some clips of the upcoming Batman: Brave and the Bold animated show. Sadly, the animation style leaves me cold. It seems far too blocky and limited with some really odd proportions to it; and no matter how good the stories may be I'm going to have a hard time getting past how it looks.
I know it must cost a lot to do these shows but it seems like the animation in each DC inspired animated show is coarser and rougher than what came before. Is it just me, or is hand-drawn animation for television really devolving these days? ?:)
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
BTW, I finally got to see Batman: Gotham Knight (it was on the Cartoon Network) and I have to say I'm really happy I didn't waste my money on this one. The stories are mostly pretty pedestrian, the physical depiction of Bruce Wayne is absolutely ludicrous, and Kevin Conroy's voice seems completely out of place given the character designs and art style. It also doesn't help that Batman is really an afterthought in many of the vignettes and has relatively little onscreen time.
"Deadshot" was the best of the lot and the closest to a more "traditional" Batman adventure; "Killer Croc" was decent (though really marred by lousy animation), the rest were pretty much a wast of time.
I usually enjoy anthology type shows but this was a really ill advised and poorly executed undertaking.
I'm still kicking myself for purchasing this on sheer fanboy anticipation.
I agree with everything you've said here.
BTW#2, also got to see some clips of the upcoming Batman: Brave and the Bold animated show. Sadly, the animation style leaves me cold. It seems far too blocky and limited with some really odd proportions to it; and no matter how good the stories may be I'm going to have a hard time getting past how it looks.
I know it must cost a lot to do these shows but it seems like the animation in each DC inspired animated show is coarser and rougher than what came before. Is it just me, or is hand-drawn animation for television really devolving these days? ?:)
I'm sorry you don't share my zeal for this new approach, Tony. I find the return to the look of yesteryear when we were just carefree kids refreshing. However, I do share a few concerns with the art style that coincide with your misgivings. As you're already aware, I too have asked on this thread why hand-drawn animation has been so dumbed down lately. I miss the days of Filmation, Ruby Spears & early Hanna-Barbera styles. Even if the stories & dialogue were corny or "dated", the art for many of those cartoons still hold up today. My son thinks so too as well as many of my art students.
That's what I like about Batman: B&B, it looks very Dick Sprang/Carmine Infantino (in the manner of how they drew him) and that was the first Batman from the comics that was so impressionable for me as a young comic reader and artist. Yeah the art looks a little too wonky in places but it's hardly a deal-breaker for me.
The Timmverse has become my litmus test for all new DC animation projects, because it did things right IMO. I think that other animators are deriving their approaches from Timm's but it's not exactly setting well with followers from that generation. Let's face it, the 90s were awesome for this genre and I don't mean just superheroes.
Yeah B&B's artwork leaves alot to be desired but in a weird way, I love it. I hope that you'll give the series a try and you know I'll be the first to say if it sucks as I did Gotham Knight. I hope that it doesn't.
Lately I'm starting to believe that maybe kids nowadays just don't care to watch cartoons past a certain age and it's not economically viable for studios to pour out too much to put together a quality-looking animated commodity. ?:)
Devolving is a great definition for what's going on in this medium.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
That's what I like about Batman: B&B, it looks very Dick Sprang/Carmine Infantino (in the manner of how they drew him) and that was the first Batman from the comics that was so impressionable for me as a young comic reader and artist. Yeah the art looks a little too wonky in places but it's hardly a deal-breaker for me.
They showed a few new clips during the new CGI Clone Wars show on Cartoon Network (which wasn't all that bad, BTW) and everything had a flattened out look to it. Some of the clips (especially one with Blue Beetle) look like they came right out of the recent Teen Titans show. The animation style is definitely an acquired taste. Hopefully the stories will make up for it as was the case with the last season of The Batman. And of course, if Green Lantern makes an appearance or two, that won't hurt either.
RogueAgentSpeeding in the Tumbler...Posts: 3,676MI6 Agent
if Green Lantern makes an appearance or two, that won't hurt either.
Well there are 26 episodes so the chances of seeing Hal Jordan are pretty even but the list of guest stars below aren't particularly specific when it comes to your boy:
Announced characters for this show to date include:
Heroes
Adam Strange, Aquaman, The Atom, Batman, Black Canary, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Deadman, Doctor Fate, Fire, Firestorm, Flash, Green Arrow, The Green Lantern Corps, Guy Gardner, Justice Society of America, Jonah Hex, Kamandi, Huntress, Metamorpho, Red Tornado, Plastic Man, and Wildcat.
Villains
Black Manta, Calendar Man, Cavalier, Clock King, Gentleman Ghost, Gorilla Grodd, Kite Man, Kanjar Ro, Ocean Master, and Zebra-Man.
No Sinestro either.
Mrs. Man Face: "You wouldn't hit a lady? Would you?"
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice isUNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Have any of you been on the new Dark Knight coaster at Six Flags Great America in Illinois?
I went on it in august and found it pretty cool based on the movie. Not the greatest coaster but it is inside and completely dark as you ride. So you have no clue when the turns are coming.
Tee HeeCBT Headquarters: Chicago, ILPosts: 917MI6 Agent
There has been alot of talk about how DK is an attempt to justify Bush's policies. I don't agree with that in the slightest, as while I don't believe that the film really has a distinct ideology, I think that if anything, it is condemning Bush's policies. Anyway, I found this article by one of my favourite Australian journalists, Walid Aly, and I thought it was really interesting:
A Dark Knight for politics
DOES Bruce Wayne vote Republican? For Jeffrey Lord in The American Spectator, the extraordinary success of Christopher Nolan's new Batman epic, The Dark Knight, presages the result of the coming US election: "They want Batman," writes Lord. "So they will elect McCain."
It might seem a long way from the septuagenarian to the caped crusader, but Lord is not alone in making such political appropriations. "Isn't it obvious?" asks New York Post film critic Kyle Smith. "Batman is Dick Cheney with hair." It's a spectacular promotion for Cheney, who is more often likened to Batman's grotesque nemesis, the Penguin. But most coherently, here is novelist Andrew Klavan's take in The Wall Street Journal: "The Dark Knight … is at some level a paean of praise to the fortitude and moral courage that has been shown by George W. Bush in this time of terror and war."
More than merely voting for the GOP (Grand Old Party), Wayne — or more precisely, Batman — becomes the symbolic embodiment of Bush himself: "Like W, Batman is vilified and despised for confronting terrorists in the only terms they understand. Like W, Batman sometimes has to push the boundaries of civil rights to deal with an emergency, certain that he will re-establish those boundaries when the emergency is past."
And certainly, the parallels are easily identified. With arch-villain the Joker detained for questioning, Batman adopts CIA-style "enhanced interrogation techniques", repeatedly pounding his handcuffed and defenceless foe to elicit information (although it is ultimately pointless). He taps into every mobile phone in Gotham City to find the Joker, in a clear reference to Bush's use of telecommunication companies to spy — without a legal warrant — on American citizens.
So the Batman-as-Bush theory is worthy of consideration, if only because of the clear rhetorical implications. If you find yourself cheering as Batman fights to defend Gotham City while his antagonist blows up hospitals, then you should be cheering on the hapless President and his more dubious methods. Extraordinary rendition, torture (by another name) at Guantanamo Bay, the disastrous invasion of Iraq — it is all rendered heroic in a stroke. And if you find yourself contemptuous of the naive citizens of Gotham who despise Batman and want to see him arrested and punished for his vigilantism, then you should feel similar contempt for those who would decry Bush. The very heroism of both is that they are prepared to do what others lack the strength to do — and wear the attendant opprobrium — because it is simply necessary in order to save the world.
It is not infantile to read contemporary politics into the world of superheroes. Superman and Captain America both pulverised Hitler in comics during World War II, and Batman is hardly free from similar manipulation. Frank Miller, whose seminal 1980s Batman comics have overwhelmingly inspired the latest cinematic incarnation, is presently working on a self-confessed "piece of propaganda" in which Batman fights al-Qaeda. Indeed, much of Miller's politics are aligned with those of Bush. "We're going up against a culture that finds it acceptable to do things that the rest of the world left behind with the barbarians in the sixth century," he declares, before adding, as though he is Bush's speech writer: "We are fighting in the face of fascists."
But how compelling is Klavan's reading of The Dark Knight? Between Batman and Bush there are, after all, some telling differences. Christopher Nolan's Batman ultimately recognises himself as a compromised, morally ambiguous character. He is keen to retire and leave Gotham to its "White Knight", district attorney Harvey Dent, who will defeat Gotham's criminals by civilised methods of law and order. Bush, by contrast, appears not to recognise any such moral complication. He is more likely to fancy himself as the White Knight.
Batman takes responsibility for crimes he doesn't commit, because he thinks it better for society that he be the object of anger. Bush does the exact opposite: either denying any wrongdoing or justifying it — for example, by redefining torture in highly idiosyncratic ways to absolve himself. The point of the Dark Knight is that he willingly and deliberately sacrifices his reputation. Bush only does so involuntarily.
It is also true that Batman's methods are far more discriminate than Bush's. He does not invade a foreign country on false pretexts or put civilians in anything like the kind of danger precipitated by the Bush doctrine. And most centrally, he imposes on himself an absolute prohibition on killing anyone — even the Joker. It is a theme reiterated often in the comic book universe when Batman is in a position to kill his greatest enemy: "That would give you the final victory," reasons Batman in one comic, "making me into a killer like yourself!" There is no evidence that Bush would demonstrate similar restraint. If Batman has only "one rule", what is Bush's?
The obvious retort to these observations is that while it might be true that Batman recognises his own moral ambivalence, the fact remains that his methods are ultimately vindicated. He is still the hero of this film, which returns us to Klavan's point: that as a film, The Dark Knight is a vindication of Bush.
This must lead us to contemplate the Joker, for the Batman-as-Bush narrative only works if the Joker and Osama bin Laden are analogues. And here, certain basic differences are obvious. Bin Laden simply does not have the capacity to strike selected daily targets as the Joker does. Similarly, bin Laden has not infiltrated the police force and does not have officers working for him. In brief, bin Laden does not nearly imperil America as desperately as the Joker does Gotham. In that context, The Dark Knight does not redeem the war on terror in the way Klavan would have it.
But even these differences aside, we confront a threshold question: is the Joker even a terrorist? It is easy to say so. He clearly has no regard for civilian life, and his methods are calculated to inspire public panic. But is his mission political? It's a fundamental question because politics is the very essence of terrorism. Without it, we simply have mass violence. But terrorism is — to borrow the famous anarchist phrase — "propaganda by deed". It does not exist without a cause. What is the Joker's?
On one view, he is simply a murderous psychopath. He kills because he enjoys it. "Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money," says Bruce Wayne's butler, Alfred, of the Joker. "Some men just want to watch the world burn." If Alfred is right, we have a mass murderer, but not a terrorist; the perpetrator of a grotesque violence devoid of politics. In this, he is nothing like bin Laden, whose violence is drenched in the political. Even if we accept the largely imaginary neo-conservative description — that al-Qaeda attacks us for our lifestyle — this is killing for a reason. On Alfred's view, the Joker does no such thing.
Of course, a contrary — and I think stronger — view is possible. Here, the Joker's violence is aimed at proving a very clear point: that deep down, we're all the same as him — "only as good as the world allows (us) to be". "I've demonstrated there's no difference between me and everyone else!" boasts the Joker in Alan Moore's classic comic The Killing Joke, on which Nolan's rendering of the villain is based. Hence the Joker's claim that those who proclaim rules and institute order, such as politicians or police officers, are simply hypocrites who pretend to uphold moral codes, which are promptly "dropped at the first sign of trouble". Far better to be consistent: "The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules." It is in this sense that the Joker is "an agent of chaos". Not mindless chaos, but the idea that those who would control society are contemptible. "They're schemers trying to control their worlds … I show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are."
He explicitly does not want to kill Batman ("What would I do without you?"), but he certainly wants Batman to kill him. This would violate Batman's "one rule" and prove the Joker's point. That is why Harvey Dent, the promised "White Knight" is so central. The Joker kills Dent's fiancee, not because he wants her dead, but because he wants to drive Dent to darkness. If he can transform the incorruptible district attorney into a murderer, the argument is won. Recall the Joker's delight as he hands Dent a loaded gun and presses it against his own head, enticing Dent to shoot him. When Dent leaves this decision to the toss of a coin, then exclaims: "Now you're talking!" he knows Dent has fallen.
Is that a political cause? In a very broad sense it is, though not in the sense we often use the phrase. He does not seek any clearly identifiable, concrete political outcomes. His politics are far more abstract, philosophical, even artistic. He argues not for a world ruled by him, but for one without rules altogether. Ideologically, he is not so much an anarchist as a nihilist. He is a terrorist, then, but one who advocates a belief in nothing.
Bin Laden could scarcely be more different. Unlike the Joker, he regularly articulates specific political grievances: US troops in Saudi Arabia, US support for Middle Eastern dictators and for Israel being among the most common. Unlike the Joker, he makes political demands, such as the withdrawal of troops from the Arabian Peninsula. His terrorism is not pursuant to any abstract, esoteric point of moral philosophy, but to the more concrete and banal.
THE brilliance of Nolan's Joker is that he has no history, no identity, no origin, no backstory. He simply is, which is precisely what makes him so terrifying. Perhaps this is how the Bush Administration would like us to see bin Laden, too, but this is an unsustainable fiction. Bin Laden does not simply emerge from nowhere. He dates his own anti-Americanism to the 1982 Israeli campaign in Lebanon, and at the very least his story passes through the Afghan jihad against the Soviet Union in the 1980s.
And this brings us to the only compelling — and deeply unflattering — Joker-bin Laden parallel: that both are in some sense the creations of their arch-rivals. In the case of bin Laden, terrorism analysts have regularly rehearsed this theme. Al-Qaeda was born in the US-sponsored Afghan jihad. It was the generously funded theatre of their training and networking. The terrorism we witness today is "blowback" from that era: an unintended byproduct of America's Cold War policy of proxy war.
In a similar vein, note the warning of police lieutenant Jim Gordon to Batman at the conclusion of Batman Begins (the prequel to The Dark Knight). Batman's methods must inevitably result in "escalation". "We start carrying semi-automatics, they buy automatics," explains Gordon. "We start wearing Kevlar, they buy armour-piercing rounds … And you're wearing a mask and jumping off rooftops." Then he tells of a new Gotham City criminal who has just committed armed robbery and a double homicide. "Got a taste for the theatrical, like you. Leaves a calling card." As the comics make clear and the films reflect, without Batman the Joker simply doesn't exist.
It is this symbiosis that the Bush narrative could never acknowledge — for in that view, the evil of terrorism exists in total isolation from those it targets. There is no sense of any mutually reinforcing dynamic, indeed it must be emphatically denied at every opportunity. To acknowledge otherwise would be to disrupt the pristine good versus evil logic of neo-conservative analysis. Yet, the very intrigue of Batman is that he, too, is unbalanced and disturbed. His vigilantism, inspired by the murder of his parents, is quite deeply the product of trauma, not sobriety. Worse, he is quite deliberately made a reflection of the villains he fights. At this point, the world of comic books is oddly more sophisticated than the one inhabited by neo-conservative ideologues.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
edited October 2008
Oh brother 8-) There's just no escaping this crap.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Loeff, I didn't post that article because of its politics. I posted it because earlier in the thread, several members including NP and JD brought up the film's ideology. The reality is that, even if one doesn't want to connect DK with politics, multiple articles have been written about it doing just that, and at least one member has written a review of it, in which he mentioned the film's possible link to George Bush.
Plus, even if one disagrees with the article's politics, I do think that Aly presents a very interesting, and quite insightful, interpretation of the film. Walid Aly is a terrosism expert, but he is also a comic book fan, and I think that for his views on the film and the comics, that alone justifies my reproduction of it. :v
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
...
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Comments
Different websites have different totals, especially due to the fact that numbers for certain markets like Japan (which Boxofficemojo never seems to be able to track) are often excluded. Thenumbers.com has a worldwide total of $984 million; showbizdata.com has the worldwide gross at $530 million, which when combined with the $524 domestic take would put it at well over $1 billion worldwide.
Bottom line is it made lots of cash, earned back its costs several times over, and will make even more money when it's released on home video. All that will hopefully bode well for future movies based on DC comics characters (like Green Lantern :v).
Or Flash. :v Although I would happily see any superhero film, the one superhero whom I would give anything to see on the big screen is the Flash (probably my second favourite superhero after Spidey).
Yes, but have you ever even read a Flash comic?
Who knows, the success of Dark Knight and Iron Man could lead to another slew of comics inspired movies.
BTW, speaking of Batman, it has just been announced that The Dark Knight will be released on DVD and hi-def BluRay on December 9, 2008. Here's a couple of articles that list all the goodies to be included with the movie:
High Def Digest / IGN DVD
And here's a nifty pic of the special BluRay edition with BatPod. Droooooooooooool...
Seriously, I saw the pilot (movielength) episode of the TV series with John Wesley Shipp, which I adored, and at least one other episode, although I've probably seen three or four episodes in total. I've also seen a few episodes of the JLA animated series, although my love for the Flash is really due to the pilot episode of the show, which for quite a while, I thought was a film.
Here's hoping.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
But not comic book movies. Snob. {:)
I used to have that movie on Laser Disk. It wasn't bad, but also not really representative of the true Flash character. The show was born out of the mad success of the 1989 Batman movie and, not surprisingly, it tried to ape a lot of the same qualities: the gothic look to the city, a brooding hero, even the muscle-bound suit - none of which were really true to the Flash character from the comics. The producers even got Danny Elfmann to do the opening music for the show (who's bombastic theme was very reminiscent of the 1989 Batman as well). Barry Allen himself was more of an amalgamation of Barry Allen and Wally West (his successor in the comics, who was also the Flash from the JLA animated shows).
Of course, if you'd read a comic or two you might have known some of that.
Wow, that's almost hypnotic. I sit here and wait for it to go into a Jules Winfield type shouting episode.
As Batman said in the World's Finest episode of STAS, "It helps to be prepared..."
This is my patented Evil Eye sig whenever I hear a statement as ridiculous as the one Dan Same,the stuck-up literary elitist, made. :v
Isn't that accusation considered redundant?
You have him to thank for me pulling the trigger on it... I warned him. Slummin' in a comic book thread yet has never picked one up to immerse in the awesomeness of its pictures & story. :v
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Yes, but why read the comics when I can just turn to you and Rogue?
If I'm responsible for triggering some of your more 'creative' posts, then I take full responsibility.
I know, I know.
From where I sit it could only improve it.
It's a show about Dick Grayson before he became Robin.
And they are calling him "DJ" Grayson.
I think I'm gonna hurl.
More info here: http://tv.ign.com/articles/915/915079p1.html
Old news Night, several of us already ripped it to itty bitty shreds in the "20 Greatest Comic Book Movies" thread yesterday.
Anything this putrid doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Batman.
Was gonna check there, but I figured you guys would've posted it in this thread, so I didn't bother.
Look he still uses a VCR exclusively, elitists wouldn't dare make a claim like that...
How long have DVD players been available to the public? Long enough for them to be grossly affordable. I KNOW that I'm old school and even I can admit that VCRs can be considered relics.
His rep was compromised the moment that he made that statement. It's no different than still using an 8-track player in my book.
Read a comic book already, Dan!!!
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
Tony, you might find yourself having to answer some questions from me in the future on this, :v as I feel like someone who has finally used a CD for the first time.
BTW, Rogue, I have used a DVD player for quite a while, but until now, not to tape things off television.
I will eventually.
I seem to recall trying to enlighten you to the benefits of recording with DVDs. Glad to see you're taking your first tentative steps into a larger world...
I'm always happy to help if I can. Feel free to ask away, though I can't guarantee I'll always have an answer.
Time for your first lesson in semantics: we don't tape with DVD's, we record with them. "Taping with a DVD" is an oxymoron.
BTW, I finally got to see Batman: Gotham Knight (it was on the Cartoon Network) and I have to say I'm really happy I didn't waste my money on this one. The stories are mostly pretty pedestrian, the physical depiction of Bruce Wayne is absolutely ludicrous, and Kevin Conroy's voice seems completely out of place given the character designs and art style. It also doesn't help that Batman is really an afterthought in many of the vignettes and has relatively little onscreen time.
"Deadshot" was the best of the lot and the closest to a more "traditional" Batman adventure; "Killer Croc" was decent (though really marred by lousy animation), the rest were pretty much a wast of time.
I usually enjoy anthology type shows but this was a really ill advised and poorly executed undertaking.
BTW#2, also got to see some clips of the upcoming Batman: Brave and the Bold animated show. Sadly, the animation style leaves me cold. It seems far too blocky and limited with some really odd proportions to it; and no matter how good the stories may be I'm going to have a hard time getting past how it looks.
I know it must cost a lot to do these shows but it seems like the animation in each DC inspired animated show is coarser and rougher than what came before. Is it just me, or is hand-drawn animation for television really devolving these days? ?:)
I'm still kicking myself for purchasing this on sheer fanboy anticipation.
I agree with everything you've said here.
I'm sorry you don't share my zeal for this new approach, Tony. I find the return to the look of yesteryear when we were just carefree kids refreshing. However, I do share a few concerns with the art style that coincide with your misgivings. As you're already aware, I too have asked on this thread why hand-drawn animation has been so dumbed down lately. I miss the days of Filmation, Ruby Spears & early Hanna-Barbera styles. Even if the stories & dialogue were corny or "dated", the art for many of those cartoons still hold up today. My son thinks so too as well as many of my art students.
That's what I like about Batman: B&B, it looks very Dick Sprang/Carmine Infantino (in the manner of how they drew him) and that was the first Batman from the comics that was so impressionable for me as a young comic reader and artist. Yeah the art looks a little too wonky in places but it's hardly a deal-breaker for me.
The Timmverse has become my litmus test for all new DC animation projects, because it did things right IMO. I think that other animators are deriving their approaches from Timm's but it's not exactly setting well with followers from that generation. Let's face it, the 90s were awesome for this genre and I don't mean just superheroes.
Yeah B&B's artwork leaves alot to be desired but in a weird way, I love it. I hope that you'll give the series a try and you know I'll be the first to say if it sucks as I did Gotham Knight. I hope that it doesn't.
Lately I'm starting to believe that maybe kids nowadays just don't care to watch cartoons past a certain age and it's not economically viable for studios to pour out too much to put together a quality-looking animated commodity. ?:)
Devolving is a great definition for what's going on in this medium.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
They showed a few new clips during the new CGI Clone Wars show on Cartoon Network (which wasn't all that bad, BTW) and everything had a flattened out look to it. Some of the clips (especially one with Blue Beetle) look like they came right out of the recent Teen Titans show. The animation style is definitely an acquired taste. Hopefully the stories will make up for it as was the case with the last season of The Batman. And of course, if Green Lantern makes an appearance or two, that won't hurt either.
Well there are 26 episodes so the chances of seeing Hal Jordan are pretty even but the list of guest stars below aren't particularly specific when it comes to your boy:
Announced characters for this show to date include:
Heroes
Adam Strange, Aquaman, The Atom, Batman, Black Canary, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Deadman, Doctor Fate, Fire, Firestorm, Flash, Green Arrow, The Green Lantern Corps, Guy Gardner, Justice Society of America, Jonah Hex, Kamandi, Huntress, Metamorpho, Red Tornado, Plastic Man, and Wildcat.
Villains
Black Manta, Calendar Man, Cavalier, Clock King, Gentleman Ghost, Gorilla Grodd, Kite Man, Kanjar Ro, Ocean Master, and Zebra-Man.
No Sinestro either.
Batman: "The Hammer Of Justice is UNISEX!"
-Batman: The Brave & The Bold -
I went on it in august and found it pretty cool based on the movie. Not the greatest coaster but it is inside and completely dark as you ride. So you have no clue when the turns are coming.
I rode it last summer too, before the film was released. Had to wait over two hours to reach the front of the line.
On the whole, I wasn't impressed. Too restrained for my taste.
I prefer Batman: The Ride! B-)
-Roger Moore
A Dark Knight for politics
DOES Bruce Wayne vote Republican? For Jeffrey Lord in The American Spectator, the extraordinary success of Christopher Nolan's new Batman epic, The Dark Knight, presages the result of the coming US election: "They want Batman," writes Lord. "So they will elect McCain."
It might seem a long way from the septuagenarian to the caped crusader, but Lord is not alone in making such political appropriations. "Isn't it obvious?" asks New York Post film critic Kyle Smith. "Batman is Dick Cheney with hair." It's a spectacular promotion for Cheney, who is more often likened to Batman's grotesque nemesis, the Penguin. But most coherently, here is novelist Andrew Klavan's take in The Wall Street Journal: "The Dark Knight … is at some level a paean of praise to the fortitude and moral courage that has been shown by George W. Bush in this time of terror and war."
More than merely voting for the GOP (Grand Old Party), Wayne — or more precisely, Batman — becomes the symbolic embodiment of Bush himself: "Like W, Batman is vilified and despised for confronting terrorists in the only terms they understand. Like W, Batman sometimes has to push the boundaries of civil rights to deal with an emergency, certain that he will re-establish those boundaries when the emergency is past."
And certainly, the parallels are easily identified. With arch-villain the Joker detained for questioning, Batman adopts CIA-style "enhanced interrogation techniques", repeatedly pounding his handcuffed and defenceless foe to elicit information (although it is ultimately pointless). He taps into every mobile phone in Gotham City to find the Joker, in a clear reference to Bush's use of telecommunication companies to spy — without a legal warrant — on American citizens.
So the Batman-as-Bush theory is worthy of consideration, if only because of the clear rhetorical implications. If you find yourself cheering as Batman fights to defend Gotham City while his antagonist blows up hospitals, then you should be cheering on the hapless President and his more dubious methods. Extraordinary rendition, torture (by another name) at Guantanamo Bay, the disastrous invasion of Iraq — it is all rendered heroic in a stroke. And if you find yourself contemptuous of the naive citizens of Gotham who despise Batman and want to see him arrested and punished for his vigilantism, then you should feel similar contempt for those who would decry Bush. The very heroism of both is that they are prepared to do what others lack the strength to do — and wear the attendant opprobrium — because it is simply necessary in order to save the world.
It is not infantile to read contemporary politics into the world of superheroes. Superman and Captain America both pulverised Hitler in comics during World War II, and Batman is hardly free from similar manipulation. Frank Miller, whose seminal 1980s Batman comics have overwhelmingly inspired the latest cinematic incarnation, is presently working on a self-confessed "piece of propaganda" in which Batman fights al-Qaeda. Indeed, much of Miller's politics are aligned with those of Bush. "We're going up against a culture that finds it acceptable to do things that the rest of the world left behind with the barbarians in the sixth century," he declares, before adding, as though he is Bush's speech writer: "We are fighting in the face of fascists."
But how compelling is Klavan's reading of The Dark Knight? Between Batman and Bush there are, after all, some telling differences. Christopher Nolan's Batman ultimately recognises himself as a compromised, morally ambiguous character. He is keen to retire and leave Gotham to its "White Knight", district attorney Harvey Dent, who will defeat Gotham's criminals by civilised methods of law and order. Bush, by contrast, appears not to recognise any such moral complication. He is more likely to fancy himself as the White Knight.
Batman takes responsibility for crimes he doesn't commit, because he thinks it better for society that he be the object of anger. Bush does the exact opposite: either denying any wrongdoing or justifying it — for example, by redefining torture in highly idiosyncratic ways to absolve himself. The point of the Dark Knight is that he willingly and deliberately sacrifices his reputation. Bush only does so involuntarily.
It is also true that Batman's methods are far more discriminate than Bush's. He does not invade a foreign country on false pretexts or put civilians in anything like the kind of danger precipitated by the Bush doctrine. And most centrally, he imposes on himself an absolute prohibition on killing anyone — even the Joker. It is a theme reiterated often in the comic book universe when Batman is in a position to kill his greatest enemy: "That would give you the final victory," reasons Batman in one comic, "making me into a killer like yourself!" There is no evidence that Bush would demonstrate similar restraint. If Batman has only "one rule", what is Bush's?
The obvious retort to these observations is that while it might be true that Batman recognises his own moral ambivalence, the fact remains that his methods are ultimately vindicated. He is still the hero of this film, which returns us to Klavan's point: that as a film, The Dark Knight is a vindication of Bush.
This must lead us to contemplate the Joker, for the Batman-as-Bush narrative only works if the Joker and Osama bin Laden are analogues. And here, certain basic differences are obvious. Bin Laden simply does not have the capacity to strike selected daily targets as the Joker does. Similarly, bin Laden has not infiltrated the police force and does not have officers working for him. In brief, bin Laden does not nearly imperil America as desperately as the Joker does Gotham. In that context, The Dark Knight does not redeem the war on terror in the way Klavan would have it.
But even these differences aside, we confront a threshold question: is the Joker even a terrorist? It is easy to say so. He clearly has no regard for civilian life, and his methods are calculated to inspire public panic. But is his mission political? It's a fundamental question because politics is the very essence of terrorism. Without it, we simply have mass violence. But terrorism is — to borrow the famous anarchist phrase — "propaganda by deed". It does not exist without a cause. What is the Joker's?
On one view, he is simply a murderous psychopath. He kills because he enjoys it. "Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money," says Bruce Wayne's butler, Alfred, of the Joker. "Some men just want to watch the world burn." If Alfred is right, we have a mass murderer, but not a terrorist; the perpetrator of a grotesque violence devoid of politics. In this, he is nothing like bin Laden, whose violence is drenched in the political. Even if we accept the largely imaginary neo-conservative description — that al-Qaeda attacks us for our lifestyle — this is killing for a reason. On Alfred's view, the Joker does no such thing.
Of course, a contrary — and I think stronger — view is possible. Here, the Joker's violence is aimed at proving a very clear point: that deep down, we're all the same as him — "only as good as the world allows (us) to be". "I've demonstrated there's no difference between me and everyone else!" boasts the Joker in Alan Moore's classic comic The Killing Joke, on which Nolan's rendering of the villain is based. Hence the Joker's claim that those who proclaim rules and institute order, such as politicians or police officers, are simply hypocrites who pretend to uphold moral codes, which are promptly "dropped at the first sign of trouble". Far better to be consistent: "The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules." It is in this sense that the Joker is "an agent of chaos". Not mindless chaos, but the idea that those who would control society are contemptible. "They're schemers trying to control their worlds … I show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are."
He explicitly does not want to kill Batman ("What would I do without you?"), but he certainly wants Batman to kill him. This would violate Batman's "one rule" and prove the Joker's point. That is why Harvey Dent, the promised "White Knight" is so central. The Joker kills Dent's fiancee, not because he wants her dead, but because he wants to drive Dent to darkness. If he can transform the incorruptible district attorney into a murderer, the argument is won. Recall the Joker's delight as he hands Dent a loaded gun and presses it against his own head, enticing Dent to shoot him. When Dent leaves this decision to the toss of a coin, then exclaims: "Now you're talking!" he knows Dent has fallen.
Is that a political cause? In a very broad sense it is, though not in the sense we often use the phrase. He does not seek any clearly identifiable, concrete political outcomes. His politics are far more abstract, philosophical, even artistic. He argues not for a world ruled by him, but for one without rules altogether. Ideologically, he is not so much an anarchist as a nihilist. He is a terrorist, then, but one who advocates a belief in nothing.
Bin Laden could scarcely be more different. Unlike the Joker, he regularly articulates specific political grievances: US troops in Saudi Arabia, US support for Middle Eastern dictators and for Israel being among the most common. Unlike the Joker, he makes political demands, such as the withdrawal of troops from the Arabian Peninsula. His terrorism is not pursuant to any abstract, esoteric point of moral philosophy, but to the more concrete and banal.
THE brilliance of Nolan's Joker is that he has no history, no identity, no origin, no backstory. He simply is, which is precisely what makes him so terrifying. Perhaps this is how the Bush Administration would like us to see bin Laden, too, but this is an unsustainable fiction. Bin Laden does not simply emerge from nowhere. He dates his own anti-Americanism to the 1982 Israeli campaign in Lebanon, and at the very least his story passes through the Afghan jihad against the Soviet Union in the 1980s.
And this brings us to the only compelling — and deeply unflattering — Joker-bin Laden parallel: that both are in some sense the creations of their arch-rivals. In the case of bin Laden, terrorism analysts have regularly rehearsed this theme. Al-Qaeda was born in the US-sponsored Afghan jihad. It was the generously funded theatre of their training and networking. The terrorism we witness today is "blowback" from that era: an unintended byproduct of America's Cold War policy of proxy war.
In a similar vein, note the warning of police lieutenant Jim Gordon to Batman at the conclusion of Batman Begins (the prequel to The Dark Knight). Batman's methods must inevitably result in "escalation". "We start carrying semi-automatics, they buy automatics," explains Gordon. "We start wearing Kevlar, they buy armour-piercing rounds … And you're wearing a mask and jumping off rooftops." Then he tells of a new Gotham City criminal who has just committed armed robbery and a double homicide. "Got a taste for the theatrical, like you. Leaves a calling card." As the comics make clear and the films reflect, without Batman the Joker simply doesn't exist.
It is this symbiosis that the Bush narrative could never acknowledge — for in that view, the evil of terrorism exists in total isolation from those it targets. There is no sense of any mutually reinforcing dynamic, indeed it must be emphatically denied at every opportunity. To acknowledge otherwise would be to disrupt the pristine good versus evil logic of neo-conservative analysis. Yet, the very intrigue of Batman is that he, too, is unbalanced and disturbed. His vigilantism, inspired by the murder of his parents, is quite deeply the product of trauma, not sobriety. Worse, he is quite deliberately made a reflection of the villains he fights. At this point, the world of comic books is oddly more sophisticated than the one inhabited by neo-conservative ideologues.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Plus, even if one disagrees with the article's politics, I do think that Aly presents a very interesting, and quite insightful, interpretation of the film. Walid Aly is a terrosism expert, but he is also a comic book fan, and I think that for his views on the film and the comics, that alone justifies my reproduction of it. :v
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM