Does anyone (other than Jarvio and JFF) actually prefer AVTAK over OP?
I do. OP is boring at parts but I enjoy almost every minute of AVTAK(except Grace Jones). AVTAK was the first bond film I ever watched and it is one of my favorites to this day. {[]
I agree with Lazenby880 in that OP is the least bad. What is really annoying about OP is that it had the potential to be a really great Bond movie and failed mainly due to the adolesent humour which infected most of Roger Moore's films.
It had a realistic plot with General Orlov's motivations making perfect sense. The final fight on top of the plane was one of the best sequences in the series.
The locations were exotic and I know Bond movies never show the bad bits of the countries they are in, but India was portrayed like something out of Carry On Up The Kyber.
What could have been an exciting cold war triller was almost ruined by moments of out of place humour.
The acrojet sequence couldn't just have ended with Bond doing the victory role - no he has to land and ask a hillbilly to fill her up. Though what a hillbilly is doing in a south American country is anybodies guess.
The chase through the Indian streets is excrutiating. Is India meant to be so backward that Gobinda and his men are armed with blunderbuses and knives rather than semi-automatic weapons.
The tarzan yell is the pits. Is Bond so badly trained in escape and evasion that he thinks it is a good idea to let his enemies know exactly where he is.
The attack on the Monsoon Palace by Octupussy's girls looks like the end of a Disney movie where the children attack the baddies. Not exactly on a par with the fight in the Volcano in YOLT or the super tanker in TSWLM.
For all these critisms I still like OP. I just wish it had been made as a serious Bond thriller rather than a Roger Moore comedy.
At last! and thank you Mailfist, I too for many years have thought OP to be one of the Bond movies that most wasted its potential.
Your points above are excellent...
1.Yes, a great Cold War plot, with a barking mad Stephen Berkoff in great Bond villian form
2.Yes, great locations, India was a masterstroke, and taking Bond to the less well known Udairpur was brilliant.
3. Yes, there is too much humour, some visual (Qs workshop, the alligator) some verbal (too many double entendres -like a Carry On film!)
4. Yes, the acrojet PTS ended badly. Although it is a great stunt, I dont actually like this whole sequence very much. I will explain in a moment.
5. Yes, the chase in India is appalling, very Raiders...and played for too much humour.
6. Yes, the elephant hunt is a good sequence, but all those awful puns....
7. Yes, the Monsoon palace battle is unexciting and boring. Bond's appearance in a hot air balloon just adds cracks to an already creaking climax.
My additional points about OP are:
1. The pacing is excellent, but the film is too long. I would have cut out the PTS and the street chase in Udaipur, both of which are superflous; some of the scenes during the chase in Germany slow the action and I am also not convinced the Monsoon palace battle is required.
2. A different PTS could have flashbacked to Bond meeting the Dexter Sythe character (Octopussy's father) and allowing him to commit suicide rather than face an embarressing trial. The PTS would then continue with the first scenes in Berlin where the Twins assassinate 008. This would have been mysterious and set the scene for some of the movie that follows.
3. The climatic fight on top of the plane seems like an immediate re-hash of the fight on top of the train. Not particularly bright thinking. I haven't thought of an alternative yet...but didn't Orlov land in a helicopter? Perhaps some kind of helicopter fight....
4. The Indian locations are so exotic and so well photographed: Bond's midnight walk around the Monsoon palace, Octopussy's Island at dawn, the elephant hunt; its the best work Alan Hume did on a Bond picture.
5. The villians, while a little on the light side are actually rather good, Louis Jordan's Khan is a sleek playboy who employs Gobinda to do his dirty work; Khan looks like a man who has never had to do any work other than cheat at backgammon or seduce beautiful women.
6. An island full of women? In a Bond film? Oh Joy!
7. Is Sir Roger too old? Well, I remember when I watched it in 1983, I certainly thought he was, but by 1985 even a corset couldn't keep his paunch at bay. Overall I think OP should have been his elegant swansong.
8. Two really vicious fight scene, the first in Octopussy's bedroom, the second on the train; the fight arranger's came up trumps on this one.
9. The Indian character's are too one-dimensional and Q gets involved too much; it would have been fun to have an "Indian Q" giving Bond his equipment in India. The Vijay character doesn't have much to do, like Hip in TMWTGG, sometimes I wonder why he is there at all.
10. Great auction scene, lifted from Property of a Lady; one of the best scenes in the film.
11. Great costumes. (Was this a Lindy Hemming film? I can't remember)
12. Some good scenes between Bond and Octopussy, which play to the strengths of the actors. Disappointingly, the writers didn't really develop a love story.
I could go on.....
For sure OP, like most post 1965 Bonds, has many problems and it isn't one of my favourites. It's trying to be too jocular for me and after the down to earth success of FYEO I expected more of the same. But everytime I view it I say "cut that scene", "cut that joke", "should've done this", "should've done that"...I just know there is huge potential in this movie.
A final thought. With the threat of a Connery Bond outing that same summer, I often feel the writers and producers wanted to make it clear this was a Roger Moore Bond film, which explains the humour, gadgets and stunts. NSNA lacks a lot of this, and even though its a pretty poor effort itslef, I actually prefer it. Or maybe its just because its got Sean Connery in it.
Oh and in terms of AVTAK...well, I just don't want to talk about it; it depresses me to watch this film. The best thing in it is Grace Jones, though I will admit the scenes at the Chateaux are enchanting.
I prefer Octopussy for its locations, the girls, Maud Adams, the story and for the way Roger plays 007.
AVTAK it's "the return of the Mummy".:(|)Moore is so old, it's a shame !
OP or AVTAK? Hanged or Shot? It's much the same. Both films are painful to watch and if strapped to a chair and forced to pick one and watch it, I'd chew my own leg off to escape. Let's see, my choices are:
Bond dressed as a circus performer, hitching a ride with some cartoon Germans; Bond dressed as a clown; Bond dressed as an alligator, as Jungle Jim, imitating Tarzan. Or, Bond on a fire truck,
Bond on a surfboard, in the arctic to the music of the Beach Boys, Bond in France in half a Renault, Bond with shotgun and rock salt, Bond
in San Francisco, on Tanya Roberts.
Definitely, I'd chew my own leg off, hop to my video shelf, dig out my copy of From Russia With Love and try to forget.-{
I really enjoy OP, and find AVTAK only better than DAD. OP has some potentially great scenes that are not explored fully and/or ruined by stupid jokes (the manhunt).
I would like to defend the clown make-up as being a good idea since Bond is desperate to gain entrance to the big top and what would be better than make-up and a wig to obscure all your features? Now him applying the make-up in ten seconds is ludicrous, but the idea is logical if not dignified.
I can't believe you would even say that. "Octopussy" is one of the best Bond films and "A View To a Kill" is by far the worst.
It's really rather easy to say that. I am so sick of the lame jokes that accompany most of the Roger Moore Bond films, the Tarzan yell(OP) the onlookers doing double takes and spilling their drinks(TSWLM) the incompetent lawmen, the smashed wedding cake(LALD), the firetruck chase
(AVTAK and Keystone Cops)
Incidentally, Moonraker is the worst and OP and AVTAK are high art by comparison. That doesn't make them watchable. The difference between these two films and Moonraker is the difference between being shot multiple times or being slowly tortured to death.
I don't wish to offend you but I have often been
offended by the makers of these films who seem to think they can slap some special effects together, add some stupid gadgets and an outrageous stunt or two and call it a Bond film.
I applaud the producer's decision to take Bond in a harder, grittier, more exciting direction
with Casino Royale. I hope they continue in that direction. You can have humor without comedy and action without slapstick.
You are entitled to your opinion and if you like Octopussy that is just fine. Enjoy.
{[]
I prefer Patrick Macnee to Vijay as a doomed sidekick, prefer Grace Jones to the turbaned henchman in OP, prefer Walken to Jordan.
Beach Boys aside, there's less goonish humour eg "hiss off!", the tarzan yell, the inserted bed on nails/fire-eater sequence, Bond pretending to be a corpse coming to life, Bond pretending to be crippled at the end so he can suprise Octopussy... less crude innuendo. AVTAK is less derivative, OP seemed to borrow from the Raiders series too much for my liking.
However, I do like OP and if you like your Bond Cold War and gritty, there are a couple of things in there along those lines.
Bingo. Very well put.
My current 10 favorite:
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
It's a very close call. AVTAK remains ahead in my ranking, but OP is steadily gaining. They are my two favorite Bond films from the 80's!
Here's my breakdown of each film:
Bond:
Roger is a bit younger in OP, but I like his performance better in AVTAK. He seems more sombre and focused.
I like how he opted to sleep in Stacy's chair, versus manhandling Maud into kissing him.
Bond's character was compromised in OP due to a series of un-funny gags like putting him in a gorilla suit or the tarzan yell.
The Women:
Octopussy, Magna and her circus girls are hard to beat. Maud Adams is one of the best. I wish she had more screen time.
I also like Stacy quite a bit, however I'll agree she was too young for Roger.
Gotta love Jenny Flex!
The Villains:
All good, but I strongly prefer Walken to Jourdan and MayDay to Gobdina. Orlov, however, is my favorite and I wish he had a larger role. His invasion briefing is so classic.
Sidekicks:
I like VeeJay, but not enough to warrant all the tennis jokes! Patrick Macnee easily wins this category.
Jim Fanning in OP was also quite good, although he should have provided the history of the egg. (instead of Bond)
Music:
Both are top notch.
Pre-title sequence:
OP has the best in the series. AVTAK is very close, but minus a point for the Beach Boys song!
Plot:
Octopussy has too many villains and the plot is hard to follow. We lose track of the egg and switch to the Romanov Star. An afghan prince is detonating a bomb in East Berlin? Bonus points for incorporating two Fleming short stories.
AVTAK is much easier to follow and Zorin's plan might actually work. Feels very Flemingesque, especially Bond's lengthy investigation of Zorin and learning of his WWII nazi experiment background.
Overall:
Octopussy has excellent pacing, great stunts, sense of danger and urgency, exotic locations, and highly entertaining. However, it also lacks any form of restraint which leads to some very uneven moments.
AVTAK feels more like a Dalton film, but with Roger Moore. The gags are toned way down. The violence is harder and more real.
My current 10 favorite:
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
Octopussy had a lot going for it that made it feel right at home with it's surrounding films. The Kook trying to start a war in other parts of the world when his bosses don't really want a conflict. The use of a smuggling operation circus as cover to put a bomb in a military base. And of course Bond defusing it within a few seconds of it blowing up. Great tense moment. he knife fight with the second twin was pretty good.
My only real complaint is the theme song, well, it's been a while since I've watched it so I really can't name anymore.
As for A View to A Kill:
I think this was a fine way out for Roger Moore. A great theme song, great villain and locations. I'd like to see some more use of the USA in the new films. The climax is one of my favorites. I'm sort of biased towards lighter than air flight so that is certainly a reason.
That is a reason for one of my dislikes for the film. It is not possible to inflate a blimp like that. I belong to a group on facebook called the Blimp Crew Tavern and a lot of them were crew members of ships like what were used in this movie, Airship Industries Skyship 500 at the end, and the proposed 5000, the double deck control car one in the middle of the film. And they all said the same thing, that the inflation cannot be done like this.
1, GE 2, CR 3, SF 4, TWINE 5, Spectre 6, TMWTGG 7, DAD 8, LALD 9, AVTAK 10, LTK 11, Octopussy 12, Moonraker 13, TLD 14, GF 15, QOS 16, Tomorrow 17, FYEO 18. TSWLM Not seen much: Dr. No, Russia, Thunderball, Twice, Majesty.
1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
That is a reason for one of my dislikes for the film. It is not possible to inflate a blimp like that. I belong to a group on facebook called the Blimp Crew Tavern and a lot of them were crew members of ships like what were used in this movie, Airship Industries Skyship 500 at the end, and the proposed 5000, the double deck control car one in the middle of the film. And they all said the same thing, that the inflation cannot be done like this.
Apparently it takes a few hours to fully inflate a blimp, not seconds as shown in the film.
Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation?"
I like the first half of each immensely, but not so much the 2nd half. I would splice both together to make one movie (don't ask how or which bits). A bit like when they took 2 Persuaders episodes to make a feature length.
I felt that Moore did his most serious portrayals of Bond in his first two, after that it was his Saintly version with some hard-edged bits thrown in. But it all culminated in Octopussy where as he had nothing further to prove, and gave us his best, most well-rounded performance. Still the lightness of TSWLM, but with a bite not seen before in such force in so many scenes.
If TSWLM had had a Barry score, I might like it a wee bit better than OP just for that- as it is, OP is my idea of Moore's Bond at his best. AVTAK is the one too far for me. Lots of gold to mine in it though.
Comments
I do. OP is boring at parts but I enjoy almost every minute of AVTAK(except Grace Jones). AVTAK was the first bond film I ever watched and it is one of my favorites to this day. {[]
At last! and thank you Mailfist, I too for many years have thought OP to be one of the Bond movies that most wasted its potential.
Your points above are excellent...
1.Yes, a great Cold War plot, with a barking mad Stephen Berkoff in great Bond villian form
2.Yes, great locations, India was a masterstroke, and taking Bond to the less well known Udairpur was brilliant.
3. Yes, there is too much humour, some visual (Qs workshop, the alligator) some verbal (too many double entendres -like a Carry On film!)
4. Yes, the acrojet PTS ended badly. Although it is a great stunt, I dont actually like this whole sequence very much. I will explain in a moment.
5. Yes, the chase in India is appalling, very Raiders...and played for too much humour.
6. Yes, the elephant hunt is a good sequence, but all those awful puns....
7. Yes, the Monsoon palace battle is unexciting and boring. Bond's appearance in a hot air balloon just adds cracks to an already creaking climax.
My additional points about OP are:
1. The pacing is excellent, but the film is too long. I would have cut out the PTS and the street chase in Udaipur, both of which are superflous; some of the scenes during the chase in Germany slow the action and I am also not convinced the Monsoon palace battle is required.
2. A different PTS could have flashbacked to Bond meeting the Dexter Sythe character (Octopussy's father) and allowing him to commit suicide rather than face an embarressing trial. The PTS would then continue with the first scenes in Berlin where the Twins assassinate 008. This would have been mysterious and set the scene for some of the movie that follows.
3. The climatic fight on top of the plane seems like an immediate re-hash of the fight on top of the train. Not particularly bright thinking. I haven't thought of an alternative yet...but didn't Orlov land in a helicopter? Perhaps some kind of helicopter fight....
4. The Indian locations are so exotic and so well photographed: Bond's midnight walk around the Monsoon palace, Octopussy's Island at dawn, the elephant hunt; its the best work Alan Hume did on a Bond picture.
5. The villians, while a little on the light side are actually rather good, Louis Jordan's Khan is a sleek playboy who employs Gobinda to do his dirty work; Khan looks like a man who has never had to do any work other than cheat at backgammon or seduce beautiful women.
6. An island full of women? In a Bond film? Oh Joy!
7. Is Sir Roger too old? Well, I remember when I watched it in 1983, I certainly thought he was, but by 1985 even a corset couldn't keep his paunch at bay. Overall I think OP should have been his elegant swansong.
8. Two really vicious fight scene, the first in Octopussy's bedroom, the second on the train; the fight arranger's came up trumps on this one.
9. The Indian character's are too one-dimensional and Q gets involved too much; it would have been fun to have an "Indian Q" giving Bond his equipment in India. The Vijay character doesn't have much to do, like Hip in TMWTGG, sometimes I wonder why he is there at all.
10. Great auction scene, lifted from Property of a Lady; one of the best scenes in the film.
11. Great costumes. (Was this a Lindy Hemming film? I can't remember)
12. Some good scenes between Bond and Octopussy, which play to the strengths of the actors. Disappointingly, the writers didn't really develop a love story.
I could go on.....
For sure OP, like most post 1965 Bonds, has many problems and it isn't one of my favourites. It's trying to be too jocular for me and after the down to earth success of FYEO I expected more of the same. But everytime I view it I say "cut that scene", "cut that joke", "should've done this", "should've done that"...I just know there is huge potential in this movie.
A final thought. With the threat of a Connery Bond outing that same summer, I often feel the writers and producers wanted to make it clear this was a Roger Moore Bond film, which explains the humour, gadgets and stunts. NSNA lacks a lot of this, and even though its a pretty poor effort itslef, I actually prefer it. Or maybe its just because its got Sean Connery in it.
Oh and in terms of AVTAK...well, I just don't want to talk about it; it depresses me to watch this film. The best thing in it is Grace Jones, though I will admit the scenes at the Chateaux are enchanting.
AVTAK it's "the return of the Mummy".:(|)Moore is so old, it's a shame !
Bond dressed as a circus performer, hitching a ride with some cartoon Germans; Bond dressed as a clown; Bond dressed as an alligator, as Jungle Jim, imitating Tarzan. Or, Bond on a fire truck,
Bond on a surfboard, in the arctic to the music of the Beach Boys, Bond in France in half a Renault, Bond with shotgun and rock salt, Bond
in San Francisco, on Tanya Roberts.
Definitely, I'd chew my own leg off, hop to my video shelf, dig out my copy of From Russia With Love and try to forget.-{
I would like to defend the clown make-up as being a good idea since Bond is desperate to gain entrance to the big top and what would be better than make-up and a wig to obscure all your features? Now him applying the make-up in ten seconds is ludicrous, but the idea is logical if not dignified.
(AVTAK and Keystone Cops)
Incidentally, Moonraker is the worst and OP and AVTAK are high art by comparison. That doesn't make them watchable. The difference between these two films and Moonraker is the difference between being shot multiple times or being slowly tortured to death.
I don't wish to offend you but I have often been
offended by the makers of these films who seem to think they can slap some special effects together, add some stupid gadgets and an outrageous stunt or two and call it a Bond film.
I applaud the producer's decision to take Bond in a harder, grittier, more exciting direction
with Casino Royale. I hope they continue in that direction. You can have humor without comedy and action without slapstick.
You are entitled to your opinion and if you like Octopussy that is just fine. Enjoy.
{[]
Bingo. Very well put.
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
Here's my breakdown of each film:
Bond:
Roger is a bit younger in OP, but I like his performance better in AVTAK. He seems more sombre and focused.
I like how he opted to sleep in Stacy's chair, versus manhandling Maud into kissing him.
Bond's character was compromised in OP due to a series of un-funny gags like putting him in a gorilla suit or the tarzan yell.
The Women:
Octopussy, Magna and her circus girls are hard to beat. Maud Adams is one of the best. I wish she had more screen time.
I also like Stacy quite a bit, however I'll agree she was too young for Roger.
Gotta love Jenny Flex!
The Villains:
All good, but I strongly prefer Walken to Jourdan and MayDay to Gobdina. Orlov, however, is my favorite and I wish he had a larger role. His invasion briefing is so classic.
Sidekicks:
I like VeeJay, but not enough to warrant all the tennis jokes! Patrick Macnee easily wins this category.
Jim Fanning in OP was also quite good, although he should have provided the history of the egg. (instead of Bond)
Music:
Both are top notch.
Pre-title sequence:
OP has the best in the series. AVTAK is very close, but minus a point for the Beach Boys song!
Plot:
Octopussy has too many villains and the plot is hard to follow. We lose track of the egg and switch to the Romanov Star. An afghan prince is detonating a bomb in East Berlin? Bonus points for incorporating two Fleming short stories.
AVTAK is much easier to follow and Zorin's plan might actually work. Feels very Flemingesque, especially Bond's lengthy investigation of Zorin and learning of his WWII nazi experiment background.
Overall:
Octopussy has excellent pacing, great stunts, sense of danger and urgency, exotic locations, and highly entertaining. However, it also lacks any form of restraint which leads to some very uneven moments.
AVTAK feels more like a Dalton film, but with Roger Moore. The gags are toned way down. The violence is harder and more real.
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
Octopussy had a lot going for it that made it feel right at home with it's surrounding films. The Kook trying to start a war in other parts of the world when his bosses don't really want a conflict. The use of a smuggling operation circus as cover to put a bomb in a military base. And of course Bond defusing it within a few seconds of it blowing up. Great tense moment. he knife fight with the second twin was pretty good.
My only real complaint is the theme song, well, it's been a while since I've watched it so I really can't name anymore.
As for A View to A Kill:
I think this was a fine way out for Roger Moore. A great theme song, great villain and locations. I'd like to see some more use of the USA in the new films. The climax is one of my favorites. I'm sort of biased towards lighter than air flight so that is certainly a reason.
That is a reason for one of my dislikes for the film. It is not possible to inflate a blimp like that. I belong to a group on facebook called the Blimp Crew Tavern and a lot of them were crew members of ships like what were used in this movie, Airship Industries Skyship 500 at the end, and the proposed 5000, the double deck control car one in the middle of the film. And they all said the same thing, that the inflation cannot be done like this.
1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
Apparently it takes a few hours to fully inflate a blimp, not seconds as shown in the film.
" I don't listen to hip hop!"
+1. 'Pussy for me every time.
Me too, and I'll leave it at that.
He likes AVTAK better than Casino Royale 1967.
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
( some of my favourite DVDs have it in their titles ) :v
That's funny, because I think both films have a very strong 2nd half. Especially compared to FYEO and TLD !
1. GE 2. MR 3. OP 4. TMWTGG 5. TSWLM 6. TND 7. TWINE 8.DN 9. GF 10. AVTAK
yes which reminds me when are you going to return them to me
Fact! I see you've been paying attention!
1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
If TSWLM had had a Barry score, I might like it a wee bit better than OP just for that- as it is, OP is my idea of Moore's Bond at his best. AVTAK is the one too far for me. Lots of gold to mine in it though.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
....AVTAK is not far behind...
It wasn't a set - but the real thing. La Tour Eiffel