Some more humor is fine, just as long as it doesn't go too far in a "gagish" direction. The literary 007 is sardonic, but he does possess some good-natured humor. Also, Fleming himself created character names like "Pussy Galore" for a reason. (Although, IMO, GF the novel is one of his worst 007 books)
Bear in mind, also, that if you want the new films to maintain loyalty to Fleming's text, that CR is far and away the darkest of the novels, and I think we would all agree that it was arguably the darkest 007 film to date. (Although LTK is also in the running) So going a little lighter and more in the fantasy direction from CR wouldn't necessarily fly in the face of Fleming. I would prefer that they not go back to some of the more grotesque Moore or DAD type of gags, but a little more lightness ala that seen in GF, TB, and GE, for example, is fine.
One more point I would like to stress here: there is one tremendous reason why the films that are most often cited as the best in the series (first four Connery films, OHMSS, TSWLM, GE, and now CR) get that distinction: there is something unique about each of those films. They each have a unique feel, a unique tone, etc.. Uniqueness in each film is something that is essential to preserve. We don't need to be copying past films, be it in elements of lightness or darkness or particular plot lines. The maniacal industrialist with intentions of destroying large areas to establish worldwide monopoly plotline was interesting in GF, but it was made a mockery of in AVTAK and now has gotten extremely tired already after TWINE.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
Obviously it is subjective however, I didn't find CR to be particularly funny as IMO the humour was often inappropiate for the context, badly delivered or written or simply not funny.
Let's wait to see what humour is actually being referred to before deeming Bond 22 to be a disaster. )
And THEN we'll deem it a disaster )
(Formerly) Poor DannyTM and his films just aren't going to 'cut it' for fans of the Moore-style Bond---no matter how hard they try to win them over---and I'm certainly with HH in hoping they don't try too hard, since IMRO it will be wasted energy...which can only upset the new balance they've established.
Better, IMO, to stick with what brought in $600 million last time, and perhaps just insert the extra couple of beats of humour to show that Bond's sardonic fatalism has been honed right along with the other deadly skills he brings to the conflict B-)
Humour is an important ingredient, but (like explosives!) it should be used carefully, and in precise amounts...
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Obviously it is subjective however, I didn't find CR to be particularly funny as IMO the humour was often inappropiate for the context, badly delivered or written or simply not funny.
There's just no break to be had...
"You didn't brink any chocolates?"
Although that wasn't one of them, there was one moment which I did find to be funny in CR (the "that last hand nearly killed me" line, although I wasn't a fan of the defilibrator sequence.) I do think it was a very unfunny film, and I had previously thought it was deliberate, however I now know that I am wrong. It's being unfunny (IMO) was not deliberate.
...say what you want about the Moore films, but you have to admit the humour suited the films.
A classic example of where we part ways: I'm not at all convinced that this is a good thing |)
Well, certainly there were times when the humour wasn't appropiate but don't you agree that generally speaking the humour did match the films? I'm not saying you have to like the Moore films or the Moore humour, but don't you agree that on the whole (with a few exceptions) the humour matched the tone of the Moore films and the reality that they were?
Let's wait to see what humour is actually being referred to before deeming Bond 22 to be a disaster. )
And THEN we'll deem it a disaster )
established.
) That wasn't what I meant. I was having a go at some of the people who criticise others for jumping to conclusions, however if you feel that we should jump to a negative conclusion on Bond 22, then go ahead.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Obviously it is subjective however, I didn't find CR to be particularly funny as IMO the humour was often inappropiate for the context, badly delivered or written or simply not funny.
There's just no break to be had...
Ah -- Dan Same. My own personal Blofeld (Just joking in my own unfunny, innappropriate, badly delivered and written, way ))
I'm wondering which category the "Broadchest" joke (teasing a girl with a fake cover name during a mission) failed.
But it didn't do a thing for you?
Yikes!
Yet you apparently found the "I thought Christmas only came once a year" quip in TND to be the epitome of Bondian wit. Maybe I'm a little thick, but was there any reason beyond the gag to name Denise Richards' character "Christmas?" In other words, was there some characteristic that made the name "Christmas" make sense in a humorous way? Typically, Bond girls' names do. Even Onatop's name was fitting for the character -- she's Russian and enjoys sex. But in Christmas Jones' case, the only reason I can see was to give Bond a punchline at the end of the film.
Maybe in Bond 22, the girl could be called "Myself Smith." Then after 007 has his way with her, he can exclaim "well ... that's the first time I've f***** myself, and I must say I rather enjoyed it."
Ah -- Dan Same. My own personal Blofeld (Just joking in my own unfunny, innappropriate, badly delivered and written, way ))
I'm wondering which category the "Broadchest" joke (teasing a girl with a fake cover name during a mission) failed.
But it didn't do a thing for you?
Yikes!
Yet you apparently found the "I thought Christmas only came once a year" quip in TND to be the epitome of Bondian wit. Maybe I'm a little thick, but was there any reason beyond the gag to name Denise Richards' character "Christmas?" In other words, was there some characteristic that made the name "Christmas" make sense in a humorous way? Typically, Bond girls' names do. Even Onatop's name was fitting for the character -- she's Russian and enjoys sex. But in Christmas Jones' case, the only reason I can see was to give Bond a punchline at the end of the film.
Maybe in Bond 22, the girl could be called "Myself Smith." Then after 007 has his way with her, he can exclaim "well ... that's the first time I've f***** myself, and I must say I rather enjoyed it."
Don't fall off your seat laughing, Dan. )
HH, is this the best you can do? I much preferred your CR conspiracy posts. They were fantastic. It seems that you are losing your touch in your old age. Ah well. No, I didn't find the "Broadchest" joke all that funny simply because I found it odd that it would be used as a covername. Bond's was Jim Beach (?) yet Vesper's was Broadchest. I found it weird. It's not a bad name but I don't think it suited CR.
As for the "I thought Christmas only came once a year" quip in TWINE (can I take that you're confusing TWINE with TND to be a representation of your thoughts on the name? ), I did love it however I don't think it was necessarily *the epitome of Bondian wit. Regarding the name 'Christmas Jones,' it did setup the last line but I also think that the ridiculous idea of naming someone Christmas was nicely dealt with in the scene where Bond says "I don't know any doctor jokes" in response to her telling him that she has heard all the jokes. Addditionally, the name (which I don't mind) seemed to suit the film.
I don't have a problem with the Pussy Galore/Octopussy/Xenia Onatopp/Christmas Jones/Stephanie Broadchest names, but they have to suit the film. IMO Stephanie Broadchest did not suit CR.
*I don't have one example of what I consider to be the epitome of Bondian wit, however for one contender, have a look at my sig. -{
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Obviously it is subjective however, I didn't find CR to be particularly funny as IMO the humour was often inappropiate for the context, badly delivered or written or simply not funny.
There's just no break to be had...
Ah -- Dan Same. My own personal Blofeld (Just joking in my own unfunny, innappropriate, badly delivered and written, way ))
I'm wondering which category the "Broadchest" joke (teasing a girl with a fake cover name during a mission) failed.
But it didn't do a thing for you?
Yikes!
Yet you apparently found the "I thought Christmas only came once a year" quip in TND to be the epitome of Bondian wit. Maybe I'm a little thick, but was there any reason beyond the gag to name Denise Richards' character "Christmas?" In other words, was there some characteristic that made the name "Christmas" make sense in a humorous way? Typically, Bond girls' names do. Even Onatop's name was fitting for the character -- she's Russian and enjoys sex. But in Christmas Jones' case, the only reason I can see was to give Bond a punchline at the end of the film.
Maybe in Bond 22, the girl could be called "Myself Smith." Then after 007 has his way with her, he can exclaim "well ... that's the first time I've f***** myself, and I must say I rather enjoyed it."
Don't fall off your seat laughing, Dan. )
Nice one! You touched on a point I was thinking of. To get those "Great Roger Moore quips" they had to put Bond in completely implausible situations. That is what makes the Moore movies retarded and suck so much. Ian Fleming did name Pussy Galore, but that is the only character that got a name like that in the books. In the case of GF it is reasonable because Pussy Galore was the proprietor of an all girl air show. As in, Pussy Galore was a stage name, most likely not her real name.
If someone needs to be clubbed over the head with idiotic humor, a la Roger Moore, they need to petition Mike Meyers to make another Austin Powers. Leave the Mini-Mes and Knick-Knacks out of 007.
Best funny lines? I'd say probably 'speak now or forever hold your piece' or perhaps the "You're all wet!" "Yes, but my martini's still dry" for me
NSNA- rubbish film, but full of great lines!
I remember the Christmas line being predicted quite some months in advance in Total Film magazine- it's a fun one, but mainly for shock value!
NightshooterIn bed with SolitairePosts: 2,917MI6 Agent
HH, is this the best you can do? I much preferred your CR conspiracy posts. They were fantastic. It seems that you are losing your touch in your old age. Ah well. No, I didn't find the "Broadchest" joke all that funny simply because I found it odd that it would be used as a covername. Bond's was Jim Beach (?) yet Vesper's was Broadchest. I found it weird. It's not a bad name but I don't think it suited CR.
IMO Stephanie Broadchest did not suit CR.
-{
See, whether or not the props used said her covername was ACTUALLY Ms. Broadchest, I always took it that Bond was just having a go at her, and her covername was actually something more realistic. Why else wouldn't he allow her to see the paper?
her covername was ACTUALLY Ms. Broadchest, I always took it that Bond was just having a go at her, and her covername was actually something more realistic. Why else wouldn't he allow her to see the paper?
I thought Bond was winding her up as well. That's why it worked as a joke.
Yes, Bond is clearly, absolutely, 100% joking around with Vesper when he delivers the "Stephanie Broadchest" line. He's half-laughing, Vesper pretends to be shocked, the two of them are just having fun. It's a moment that shows the two characters becoming more comfortable with one another and actually falling in love--hence, it's a perfect and approporiate moment for the film.
And I've made this point before about the "Christmas" line from TWINE. . . It's an old joke, variations of which I've seen on smutty novelty Xmas cards going back more than twenty years. If Bond is to be humorous and witty, I prefer his dialogue be modeled after Noel Coward, not a Crude Noel.
No, I didn't find the "Broadchest" joke all that funny simply because I found it odd that it would be used as a covername. Bond's was Jim Beach (?) yet Vesper's was Broadchest. I found it weird. It's not a bad name but I don't think it suited CR.
Yeah, I don't think you got the joke. The Stephanie Broadchest line was a true witticism on multiple levels, not the one dimensional jokes of the Moore and Brosnan movies. The point of wit is; be clever, not obvious. It's the difference between educated humor and the corny jokes at the end of Superfriends cartoons.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
Stephanie Broadchest, like some of the other humour in CR, appeared to me to be completely out of step with CR.
I thought it was perfect: "You're going to have to trust me on this." {:)
Trust you that the humour was perfect?
Trust me that I thought it was Pity you didn't like the 'chocolates' line in the film; that was one of my favourites. The look on Bond's face as the banker laughs...exactly the type of effective character-based humour to which I'm referring.
Let's wait to see what humour is actually being referred to before deeming Bond 22 to be a disaster. )
And THEN we'll deem it a disaster )
) That wasn't what I meant. I was having a go at some of the people who criticise others for jumping to conclusions, however if you feel that we should jump to a negative conclusion on Bond 22, then go ahead.
It's my own hypothesis that a negative conclusion on the entirety of Craig's tenure has already been reached by many---which is a shame, but I understand why and how such things happen.
Hopefully I'm completely mistaken about this, but I firmly believe that those who dislike Craig will continue to do so as long as he appears as James Bond.
Right now, the target of the moment is the humour of the Craig Era. If #22 over-corrects in this regard, Eon will catch hell for it...from the very audience segment they'd ostensibly be courting...therefore, I'd advise them against pandering to this essentially lost audience; far more prudent, IMRO, to remain faithful to the audience who saw CR multiple times.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Craig's reported comment is so cryptic as to mean anything IMO. Mountain from a molehill, really.
But since we're discussing it...;)
I wouldn't mind a couple more classic Connery-styled witticisms ala "Shocking, positively shocking," or "I think they were late to a funeral," or "Wait till you get to my teeth." Those are classic (and entirely organic from scene circumstances IMO) movie Bond moments, and even in the late 60s EON was belaboring it. What was unexpected and completely cool was how Craig gave similar non-verbal cues: when the bomber blew up at the airport and his great Bond grin at the very end leap to mind. He also weighted other "funny" lnes so that they came across incredibly dry--"That last hand nearly killed me" worked wonderfully in context yet could've been played very differently (Moore's trademarked raising eyebrow for punctuation materializes before me...;) ). Craig fearlessly carved out his own Bond, including setting the stage for a few more verbal funny cues in line with what he started in CR. I realize some aren't sold on his delivery but it's the best since Connery IMO, and I for one am looking forward to more and a bit of growth even. Haggis/Forster/Craig/the new EON have me wrapped around their little finger, I'll believe it's all good until I see otherwise, on-screen, in the form of bad DADish dialogue or a double-taking flounder or something. :007)
Yeah, I don't think you got the joke. The Stephanie Broadchest line was a true witticism on multiple levels, not the one dimensional jokes of the Moore and Brosnan movies. The point of wit is; be clever, not obvious. It's the difference between educated humor and the corny jokes at the end of Superfriends cartoons.
It's not about getting the joke. Clarky, I also know how a true witticism works. I just didn't like the Stephanie Broadchest line in CR. I already stated some examples of what I consider to be terrific Moore lines earlier in this thread, and I've defended the 'Christmas' line enough so I will only say that IMO, the 'Christmas' line was alot better, as were most of the Moore/Brosnan lines. The Moore/Brosnan lines were IMO educated and were not IMO obvious or one-dimensional. I think they were fantastic. I see that I'm in a minority on this but that's fine with me. To me humour, and especially great humour, was really lacking in CR, unlike TWINE (the last Bond film IMO to feature great humour) but that does not mean that Bond 22 will disappoint me.
Oh, and HB, I hope you're noy angry that I didn't like the line and scene?
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I think it is! You don't think it's in the right film because CR is a more-down-to-earth Bond as you said earlier, but that rather implies that you've mistaken the context and what was intended from the gag, that's all. It's a character joke about Bond and tells us about him and his relationship with Vesper- it actually has context and meaning within the film; it's a nicer bit of writing than a simple and obvious pun plopped in for the sake of it.
Craig's reported comment is so cryptic as to mean anything IMO. Mountain from a molehill, really.
But since we're discussing it...;)
I wouldn't mind a couple more classic Connery-styled witticisms ala "Shocking, positively shocking," or "I think they were late to a funeral," or "Wait till you get to my teeth." Those are classic (and entirely organic from scene circumstances IMO) movie Bond moments, and even in the late 60s EON was belaboring it. What was unexpected and completely cool was how Craig gave similar non-verbal cues: when the bomber blew up at the airport and his great Bond grin at the very end leap to mind. He also weighted other "funny" lnes so that they came across incredibly dry--"That last hand nearly killed me" worked wonderfully in context yet could've been played very differently (Moore's trademarked raising eyebrow for punctuation materializes before me...;) ). Craig fearlessly carved out his own Bond, including setting the stage for a few more verbal funny cues in line with what he started in CR.
True- it's quite interesting that there are just gaps for Craig to react physically rather than vocally in some places; in the crane chase he was to have said 'learn to count' when the bomber's gun failed to fire, but had no line instead, which helped the drama, and probably because him chucking the gun back was funny enough.
I wouldn't mind a few more groaners, though. I rather liked the 'they'll print anything these days!' stuff! I think there's still room for a couple of those, as long as they don't deflate the drama too much or make Bond look invincible. One thing I really liked in CR was the gag he tries on Vesper which she just laughs in his face over- it's good to see James Bond saying 'well, I thought it was a good line'; makes him more real in a good way. Bond very rarely laughs at himself; 'boys with toys' is pretty much the only other time I can think of.
On a similar note- anyone see the new Die Hard? Really good fun, but a bit of a dearth of funny lines; I'm sure John McClane used to be funnier.
I think it is! You don't think it's in the right film because CR is a more-down-to-earth Bond as you said earlier, but that rather implies that you've mistaken the context and what was intended from the gag, that's all. It's a character joke about Bond and tells us about him and his relationship with Vesper- .
Only you would use a 'smile' smiley to tell someone that didn't get a joke. No matter. So according to you, if I don't think a joke is funny, then I must not get it? That's rather narrow-minded. I did not like the joke because, as I said previously, I didn't think it matched the tone of CR and because I don't think Craig's delivery was all that good. In regards to 'it actually has context and meaning within the film'; well, yes, it may have, but I don't think the joke was funny. Finally as for 'it's a nicer bit of writing than a simple and obvious pun plopped in for the sake of it,' that's subjective. I don't think it was, and my not thinking it was does not mean I didn't get the joke. It simply means that I disagree with you.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
My point was that you've previously shown that you misunderstood the context; hence not getting the joke- which in a thread about jokes seems to be quite funny to me, hence the smiley. It's ironic that I'm having to explain why I find something funny in a post about why I found something funny!
You want to make it personal so I'm leaving the thread.
My point was that you've previously shown that you misunderstood the context; hence not getting the joke- which in a thread about jokes seems to be quite funny to me, hence the smiley. It's ironic that I'm having to explain why I find something funny in a post about why I found something funny!
Except that I didn't not get the joke. I just didn't find it funny. There have been lines/jokes which I didn't get over the years but this is not one of them. You can find it funny, but if I don't, then accept that I have a different opinion to you about humour, instead of saying that I didn't 'get' it. But that's not even the issue anyway. The issue is, is it funny? IMO it was not.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I've defended the 'Christmas' line enough so I will only say that IMO, the 'Christmas' line was alot better, as were most of the Moore/Brosnan lines. The Moore/Brosnan lines were IMO educated and were not IMO obvious or one-dimensional.
I would absolutely agree that many of the Moore lines were very funny, particularly in the context of what were light entertainment films. However, I think it a bit of a stretch to argue that they were not obvious or one-dimensional, never mind Brosnan's 'Christmas' line. That was about as obvious and one-dimensional as one can get: the character's name was specifically written for such a joke! The less said about the 'Now that's a name to die for' line in Die Another Day the better.
For me, the humour in Casino Royale was well-judged, natural, subtle and intelligent. The 'Stephanie Broadchest' line was not a pun but a nice piece of writing which said something about the characters and the interaction between them. Unlike the humour in some previous films, it was not an arbitrary shoved in pun where the intention was to craft an ostensibly serious film (arbitrary shoved in puns are great in pictures like Moonraker, however).
I do not think the humour jarred with the tone of the film at all, although of course that is a matter of personal preference. If you disliked the humour in Casino Royale Dan that is fair enough. Personally, I hope the humour in the next picture will be similarly well-judged and witty, as this is something Craig carries off unaffectedly and naturally.
Q: You managed to make it(the role) your own.
A: We will see.
Q: You've already done it--we don't have to see. And the only contentious issue when you were offered the part was the fact that you're blond.
A: They just want more gags. The next one's going to be a lot funnier.
Q: Octopussy kind of gags?
A: Yeah. Octopussy. Pussy Galore. They're all great names. But that's the thing; all the Bond jokes have been flipped on their heads. They've all gone beyond... Should we order a bit more wine, so I can think straight?
It sounds to me like Craig was talking out of his hat, using humor (oddly, about "gags") to diffuse yet another blond reference. I wouldn't mistake this for anything having to do with anything, really. It has engendered a nice little discussion on Bond humor though.
I agree with Dan Same on CR but there you go. Craig's Broadchest joke, a bit of banter, seems out of character up to that point imo. And his line about her not being his type: "Single" seems serious rather than mock serious. It all seemed like a different movie to me (not that that would have been a bad thing! ) and like something out of a Rock Hudson Doris Day film.
Q: You managed to make it(the role) your own.
A: We will see.
Q: You've already done it--we don't have to see. And the only contentious issue when you were offered the part was the fact that you're blond.
A: They just want more gags. The next one's going to be a lot funnier.
Q: Octopussy kind of gags?
A: Yeah. Octopussy. Pussy Galore. They're all great names. But that's the thing; all the Bond jokes have been flipped on their heads. They've all gone beyond... Should we order a bit more wine, so I can think straight?
It sounds to me like Craig was talking out of his hat, using humor (oddly, about "gags") to diffuse yet another blond reference. I wouldn't mistake this for anything having to do with anything, really. It has engendered a nice little discussion on Bond humor though.
Blueman, you sly dog ... were did you get the transcript? It does indeed sound like he was talking out of his hat, and seemed to acknowledge he was. It certainly didn't seem like some major, calculated change in tone was in the works. Anyway, if they can come up with more "Stephanie Broadchest," "Do I look like I care?" and "That last hand nearly killed me," lines, I'm all in for Bond 22. Just so long as they have a full complement of icy "Yes -- Considerably" and "I won't really be in trouble until I start weeping blood"-type lines as well. And of course, the classic "Now everyone is going to know you died scratching my *****."
I agree with Dan Same on CR but there you go. Craig's Broadchest joke, a bit of banter, seems out of character up to that point imo. And his line about her not being his type: "Single" seems serious rather than mock serious. It all seemed like a different movie to me (not that that would have been a bad thing! ) and like something out of a Rock Hudson Doris Day film.
Can I be your Blofeld now, HH? )
Sorry, Nape -- that position's been filled. You can be one of Dan's henchmen, if you don't mind performing odd jobs for someone else. (Damn, I'm clever; I should write the next Bond flick).
Yes, he does take a more serious tone with the "single" line. But notice he doesn't look at her when he says it, which makes it less emphatic than it sounds. It's more like he's saying it to himself, trying to convince himself that he's not interested. But you're right -- it was a different movie. The emotions and motivations were more complicated and real than most of the other Bond flicks.
Your remark that the Bond/Vesper relationship had a Rock Hudson/Doris Day, or I would say, Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn, feel to it, is absolutely true and a great compliment to the writers. They don't write that kind of repartee very well anymore, probably because in this day and age writers don't have to disguise unmistakable sexual tension with dialogue. They can simply take the actors' clothes off. The Bond/Vesper exchanges were crackling with that kind of energy and very, very well done. And funny, IMO.
By the way -- thanks to all of you who understood that Bond was kidding when he said "Broadchest" was Vesper's cover name.
No matter. So according to you, if I don't think a joke is funny, then I must not get it? That's rather narrow-minded. I did not like the joke because, as I said previously, I didn't think it matched the tone of CR and because I don't think Craig's delivery was all that good. In regards to 'it actually has context and meaning within the film'; well, yes, it may have, but I don't think the joke was funny. Finally as for 'it's a nicer bit of writing than a simple and obvious pun plopped in for the sake of it,' that's subjective. I don't think it was, and my not thinking it was does not mean I didn't get the joke. It simply means that I disagree with you.
The way you present your argument reinforces the fact you don't understand the joke. I'm afraid that can't be helped. It has nothing to do with anyone being narrow minded. I comes down to why you don't think the joke is funny. Your argument is very clear and concise, so there is no misunderstanding on the part of the readers of your comments. You simply don't read the depth of the joke and the bigger picture. It's not that there is anything wrong with that. It just doesn't play, in your mind.
I agree with Dan Same on CR but there you go. Craig's Broadchest joke, a bit of banter, seems out of character up to that point imo. And his line about her not being his type: "Single" seems serious rather than mock serious. It all seemed like a different movie to me (not that that would have been a bad thing! ) and like something out of a Rock Hudson Doris Day film.
Can I be your Blofeld now, HH? )
NP, I knew I could depend on you to join me on the Dark Side. {[]
The way you present your argument reinforces the fact you don't understand the joke.
I'm afraid that can't be helped. It has nothing to do with anyone being narrow minded. I comes down to why you don't think the joke is funny. Your argument is very clear and concise, so there is no misunderstanding on the part of the readers of your comments. You simply don't read the depth of the joke and the bigger picture. It's not that there is anything wrong with that. It just doesn't play, in your mind.
Clarky, you still don't get it. I do understand the joke. I dislike it for reasons that I (and NP) have stated, and as you said, it doesn't 'play in my mind' but to say that I don't understand it is simply false. Also it's not about not 'reading the depth of the joke and the bigger picture;' I don't think it matches the bigger picture.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Thinking a joke is not funny does not imply one does not "get the joke'"
Why did the chicken cross the road, to get to the other side. I get the joke, I don't think it is funny.
Back on topic, I stand by my earlier comment that Bond 22 will not be anymore or less funny than CR. I did not find CR to be that funny, although several of the lines during the torture sequence were very funny. The Stephanie Broadchest thing was not that funny to me. But, everyones sense of humor is different.
Q: You managed to make it(the role) your own.
A: We will see.
Q: You've already done it--we don't have to see. And the only contentious issue when you were offered the part was the fact that you're blond.
A: They just want more gags. The next one's going to be a lot funnier.
Q: Octopussy kind of gags?
A: Yeah. Octopussy. Pussy Galore. They're all great names. But that's the thing; all the Bond jokes have been flipped on their heads. They've all gone beyond... Should we order a bit more wine, so I can think straight?
It sounds to me like Craig was talking out of his hat, using humor (oddly, about "gags") to diffuse yet another blond reference. I wouldn't mistake this for anything having to do with anything, really. It has engendered a nice little discussion on Bond humor though.
Blueman, you sly dog ... were did you get the transcript? It does indeed sound like he was talking out of his hat, and seemed to acknowledge he was. It certainly didn't seem like some major, calculated change in tone was in the works. Anyway, if they can come up with more "Stephanie Broadchest," "Do I look like I care?" and "That last hand nearly killed me," lines, I'm all in for Bond 22. Just so long as they have a full complement of icy "Yes -- Considerably" and "I won't really be in trouble until I start weeping blood"-type lines as well. And of course, the classic "Now everyone is going to know you died scratching my *****."
Got it from another forum, this is one hot topic apparently.
Comments
Some more humor is fine, just as long as it doesn't go too far in a "gagish" direction. The literary 007 is sardonic, but he does possess some good-natured humor. Also, Fleming himself created character names like "Pussy Galore" for a reason. (Although, IMO, GF the novel is one of his worst 007 books)
Bear in mind, also, that if you want the new films to maintain loyalty to Fleming's text, that CR is far and away the darkest of the novels, and I think we would all agree that it was arguably the darkest 007 film to date. (Although LTK is also in the running) So going a little lighter and more in the fantasy direction from CR wouldn't necessarily fly in the face of Fleming. I would prefer that they not go back to some of the more grotesque Moore or DAD type of gags, but a little more lightness ala that seen in GF, TB, and GE, for example, is fine.
One more point I would like to stress here: there is one tremendous reason why the films that are most often cited as the best in the series (first four Connery films, OHMSS, TSWLM, GE, and now CR) get that distinction: there is something unique about each of those films. They each have a unique feel, a unique tone, etc.. Uniqueness in each film is something that is essential to preserve. We don't need to be copying past films, be it in elements of lightness or darkness or particular plot lines. The maniacal industrialist with intentions of destroying large areas to establish worldwide monopoly plotline was interesting in GF, but it was made a mockery of in AVTAK and now has gotten extremely tired already after TWINE.
"You didn't brink any chocolates?"
I thought it was perfect: "You're going to have to trust me on this." {:)
A classic example of where we part ways: I'm not at all convinced that this is a good thing
And THEN we'll deem it a disaster
(Formerly) Poor DannyTM and his films just aren't going to 'cut it' for fans of the Moore-style Bond---no matter how hard they try to win them over---and I'm certainly with HH in hoping they don't try too hard, since IMRO it will be wasted energy...which can only upset the new balance they've established.
Better, IMO, to stick with what brought in $600 million last time, and perhaps just insert the extra couple of beats of humour to show that Bond's sardonic fatalism has been honed right along with the other deadly skills he brings to the conflict B-)
Humour is an important ingredient, but (like explosives!) it should be used carefully, and in precise amounts...
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Trust you that the humour was perfect?
Well, certainly there were times when the humour wasn't appropiate but don't you agree that generally speaking the humour did match the films? I'm not saying you have to like the Moore films or the Moore humour, but don't you agree that on the whole (with a few exceptions) the humour matched the tone of the Moore films and the reality that they were?
Ah -- Dan Same. My own personal Blofeld (Just joking in my own unfunny, innappropriate, badly delivered and written, way
I'm wondering which category the "Broadchest" joke (teasing a girl with a fake cover name during a mission) failed.
But it didn't do a thing for you?
Yikes!
Yet you apparently found the "I thought Christmas only came once a year" quip in TND to be the epitome of Bondian wit. Maybe I'm a little thick, but was there any reason beyond the gag to name Denise Richards' character "Christmas?" In other words, was there some characteristic that made the name "Christmas" make sense in a humorous way? Typically, Bond girls' names do. Even Onatop's name was fitting for the character -- she's Russian and enjoys sex. But in Christmas Jones' case, the only reason I can see was to give Bond a punchline at the end of the film.
Maybe in Bond 22, the girl could be called "Myself Smith." Then after 007 has his way with her, he can exclaim "well ... that's the first time I've f***** myself, and I must say I rather enjoyed it."
Don't fall off your seat laughing, Dan.
As for the "I thought Christmas only came once a year" quip in TWINE (can I take that you're confusing TWINE with TND to be a representation of your thoughts on the name?
I don't have a problem with the Pussy Galore/Octopussy/Xenia Onatopp/Christmas Jones/Stephanie Broadchest names, but they have to suit the film. IMO Stephanie Broadchest did not suit CR.
*I don't have one example of what I consider to be the epitome of Bondian wit, however for one contender, have a look at my sig. -{
Nice one! You touched on a point I was thinking of. To get those "Great Roger Moore quips" they had to put Bond in completely implausible situations. That is what makes the Moore movies retarded and suck so much. Ian Fleming did name Pussy Galore, but that is the only character that got a name like that in the books. In the case of GF it is reasonable because Pussy Galore was the proprietor of an all girl air show. As in, Pussy Galore was a stage name, most likely not her real name.
If someone needs to be clubbed over the head with idiotic humor, a la Roger Moore, they need to petition Mike Meyers to make another Austin Powers. Leave the Mini-Mes and Knick-Knacks out of 007.
NSNA- rubbish film, but full of great lines!
I remember the Christmas line being predicted quite some months in advance in Total Film magazine- it's a fun one, but mainly for shock value!
See, whether or not the props used said her covername was ACTUALLY Ms. Broadchest, I always took it that Bond was just having a go at her, and her covername was actually something more realistic. Why else wouldn't he allow her to see the paper?
I thought Bond was winding her up as well. That's why it worked as a joke.
Yes, Bond is clearly, absolutely, 100% joking around with Vesper when he delivers the "Stephanie Broadchest" line. He's half-laughing, Vesper pretends to be shocked, the two of them are just having fun. It's a moment that shows the two characters becoming more comfortable with one another and actually falling in love--hence, it's a perfect and approporiate moment for the film.
And I've made this point before about the "Christmas" line from TWINE. . . It's an old joke, variations of which I've seen on smutty novelty Xmas cards going back more than twenty years. If Bond is to be humorous and witty, I prefer his dialogue be modeled after Noel Coward, not a Crude Noel.
in
Return of the Double Take Pigeon!
Yeah, I don't think you got the joke. The Stephanie Broadchest line was a true witticism on multiple levels, not the one dimensional jokes of the Moore and Brosnan movies. The point of wit is; be clever, not obvious. It's the difference between educated humor and the corny jokes at the end of Superfriends cartoons.
Trust me that I thought it was
Hopefully I'm completely mistaken about this,
Right now, the target of the moment is the humour of the Craig Era. If #22 over-corrects in this regard, Eon will catch hell for it...from the very audience segment they'd ostensibly be courting...therefore, I'd advise them against pandering to this essentially lost audience; far more prudent, IMRO, to remain faithful to the audience who saw CR multiple times.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
But since we're discussing it...;)
I wouldn't mind a couple more classic Connery-styled witticisms ala "Shocking, positively shocking," or "I think they were late to a funeral," or "Wait till you get to my teeth." Those are classic (and entirely organic from scene circumstances IMO) movie Bond moments, and even in the late 60s EON was belaboring it. What was unexpected and completely cool was how Craig gave similar non-verbal cues: when the bomber blew up at the airport and his great Bond grin at the very end leap to mind. He also weighted other "funny" lnes so that they came across incredibly dry--"That last hand nearly killed me" worked wonderfully in context yet could've been played very differently (Moore's trademarked raising eyebrow for punctuation materializes before me...;) ). Craig fearlessly carved out his own Bond, including setting the stage for a few more verbal funny cues in line with what he started in CR. I realize some aren't sold on his delivery but it's the best since Connery IMO, and I for one am looking forward to more and a bit of growth even. Haggis/Forster/Craig/the new EON have me wrapped around their little finger, I'll believe it's all good until I see otherwise, on-screen, in the form of bad DADish dialogue or a double-taking flounder or something. :007)
Oh, and HB, I hope you're noy angry that I didn't like the line and scene?
I think it is!
True- it's quite interesting that there are just gaps for Craig to react physically rather than vocally in some places; in the crane chase he was to have said 'learn to count' when the bomber's gun failed to fire, but had no line instead, which helped the drama, and probably because him chucking the gun back was funny enough.
I wouldn't mind a few more groaners, though. I rather liked the 'they'll print anything these days!' stuff!
On a similar note- anyone see the new Die Hard? Really good fun, but a bit of a dearth of funny lines; I'm sure John McClane used to be funnier.
You want to make it personal so I'm leaving the thread.
For me, the humour in Casino Royale was well-judged, natural, subtle and intelligent. The 'Stephanie Broadchest' line was not a pun but a nice piece of writing which said something about the characters and the interaction between them. Unlike the humour in some previous films, it was not an arbitrary shoved in pun where the intention was to craft an ostensibly serious film (arbitrary shoved in puns are great in pictures like Moonraker, however).
I do not think the humour jarred with the tone of the film at all, although of course that is a matter of personal preference. If you disliked the humour in Casino Royale Dan that is fair enough. Personally, I hope the humour in the next picture will be similarly well-judged and witty, as this is something Craig carries off unaffectedly and naturally.
Q: You managed to make it(the role) your own.
A: We will see.
Q: You've already done it--we don't have to see. And the only contentious issue when you were offered the part was the fact that you're blond.
A: They just want more gags. The next one's going to be a lot funnier.
Q: Octopussy kind of gags?
A: Yeah. Octopussy. Pussy Galore. They're all great names. But that's the thing; all the Bond jokes have been flipped on their heads. They've all gone beyond... Should we order a bit more wine, so I can think straight?
It sounds to me like Craig was talking out of his hat, using humor (oddly, about "gags") to diffuse yet another blond reference. I wouldn't mistake this for anything having to do with anything, really. It has engendered a nice little discussion on Bond humor though.
I agree with Dan Same on CR but there you go. Craig's Broadchest joke, a bit of banter, seems out of character up to that point imo. And his line about her not being his type: "Single" seems serious rather than mock serious. It all seemed like a different movie to me (not that that would have been a bad thing!
Can I be your Blofeld now, HH?
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Blueman, you sly dog ... were did you get the transcript? It does indeed sound like he was talking out of his hat, and seemed to acknowledge he was. It certainly didn't seem like some major, calculated change in tone was in the works. Anyway, if they can come up with more "Stephanie Broadchest," "Do I look like I care?" and "That last hand nearly killed me," lines, I'm all in for Bond 22. Just so long as they have a full complement of icy "Yes -- Considerably" and "I won't really be in trouble until I start weeping blood"-type lines as well. And of course, the classic "Now everyone is going to know you died scratching my *****."
Sorry, Nape -- that position's been filled. You can be one of Dan's henchmen, if you don't mind performing odd jobs for someone else. (Damn, I'm clever; I should write the next Bond flick).
Yes, he does take a more serious tone with the "single" line. But notice he doesn't look at her when he says it, which makes it less emphatic than it sounds. It's more like he's saying it to himself, trying to convince himself that he's not interested. But you're right -- it was a different movie. The emotions and motivations were more complicated and real than most of the other Bond flicks.
Your remark that the Bond/Vesper relationship had a Rock Hudson/Doris Day, or I would say, Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn, feel to it, is absolutely true and a great compliment to the writers. They don't write that kind of repartee very well anymore, probably because in this day and age writers don't have to disguise unmistakable sexual tension with dialogue. They can simply take the actors' clothes off. The Bond/Vesper exchanges were crackling with that kind of energy and very, very well done. And funny, IMO.
By the way -- thanks to all of you who understood that Bond was kidding when he said "Broadchest" was Vesper's cover name.
The way you present your argument reinforces the fact you don't understand the joke. I'm afraid that can't be helped. It has nothing to do with anyone being narrow minded. I comes down to why you don't think the joke is funny. Your argument is very clear and concise, so there is no misunderstanding on the part of the readers of your comments. You simply don't read the depth of the joke and the bigger picture. It's not that there is anything wrong with that. It just doesn't play, in your mind.
Clarky, you still don't get it. I do understand the joke. I dislike it for reasons that I (and NP) have stated, and as you said, it doesn't 'play in my mind' but to say that I don't understand it is simply false. Also it's not about not 'reading the depth of the joke and the bigger picture;' I don't think it matches the bigger picture.
Why did the chicken cross the road, to get to the other side. I get the joke, I don't think it is funny.
Back on topic, I stand by my earlier comment that Bond 22 will not be anymore or less funny than CR. I did not find CR to be that funny, although several of the lines during the torture sequence were very funny. The Stephanie Broadchest thing was not that funny to me. But, everyones sense of humor is different.
/The monkey has nothing to do with the thread I just wanted to see it.
//It was a cheeky monkey.
Got it from another forum, this is one hot topic apparently.