Question for gun experts

Loeffelholz

I'm involved in a project concerning an ex cop-turned private investigator, in 1941 America, and I'm trying to decide what weapon he should carry.

Currently I'm considering the Smith and Wesson 'Military & Police' .38 Special. After 1958 (if my research is correct), this model became known as the Model 10, and is one of the 'gold standards' for police revolvers. Most police officers (especially uniformed) carried the 4-inch barrel configuration, but 6-inch barrels were also available.

I've been led to believe that a 2-inch 'snub-nose' model became available in 1932. This works for me, as my man would have been a police officer starting in the mid-to-late '30's, until early '41...but he would probably have had the 4" barrel while on the force.

My question: Are there any historical (or realism) problems with him carrying a S&W 'Military & Police' .38 Special (with a 2" inch barrel) in a 'concealed carry' situation?

Any thoughts (or alternative suggestions) would be most welcome.

RogueAgent

As the author, Loeff, you have the power to suspend disbelief a trifle bit. There are several ways in which you can describe your character acquiring this specific weapon; that's the beauty of fiction.

Of course you don't want to step too far out of the box with historical or chronological specifications but I highly doubt in this case that you'll be nitpicked much by critics over this type model if your explanation is plausible.

Wasn't the pistol you're describing also the carry piece for most politicians in that day?

Loeffelholz

RogueAgent wrote:

As the author, Loeff, you have the power to suspend disbelief a trifle bit. There are several ways in which you can describe your character acquiring this specific weapon; that's the beauty of fiction. Of course you don't want to step too far out of the box with historical or chronological specifications but I highly doubt in this case that you'll be nitpicked much by critics over this type model if your explanation is plausible.

You're right, of course, but I want to get as much 'right' as I can; this piece will move 'out of the box'---way out ---at times, and I want to have as much factual goodwill banked with my audience, ahead of time, as possible :v

Not that I'm going to go OTT with brand-names, etc, as Fleming did...but I also want to avoid the sort of casual snafus---chamois leather holster for the PPK, etc---which dogged him from time to time.

RogueAgent

Then play it safe. But I assure you, my friend that you won't avoid getting dogged from time to time. There's one in every bunch...

Have you considered the Colt automatic at the time? Not the signature 1911 1A that revolved around every P.I. story at the time but that little .32? Too much like Bond?

I mean you already have the makings for a larger-than-life villian in this.

Loeffelholz

Perhaps Truth be told, I'm writing this for my dad, who has been bugging me for years to write an 'old school' P.I. story...but it's going to be 'third person' instead of the ubiquitous 'first person' method employed by the vast majority of the genre---mainly because my dad has always refused to read Fleming, as he's put off by 'spy stuff'---but he's going to come close to reading Fleming when I'm done, as my overall style will certainly have his influence...

My current gun choice is based on pure practicality...Spillane's Mike Hammer pretty much owns the classic Colt .45 Model 1911...and of course he wasn't the least bit worried about 'concealing' anything B-)

But it won't be the only gun my guy has; believe me :v I suspect he'll have a wide variety of tools for various applications...

RogueAgent

Life is short, Loeff. Go for it and much success to you. {[]

Can I have freebies when this becomes a movie?

Loeffelholz

RogueAgent wrote:

Life is short, Loeff. Go for it and much success to you. {[]

Can I have freebies when this becomes a movie?

Thanks, pal -{ Remember: There could indeed be something in this for you

Everyone else: I'm still wide open to firearm suggestions---for a primary weapon...smaller-caliber 'back-up' weapon...and even bigger guns...but they have to be true to the (late '30's-early '40's) period.

I suspect the Thompson .45 machine-gun, a.k.a. the "Chicago Typewriter," might make a cameo appearance :v

Jones

Uniformed police officers have used the SMith Mod. 10 for as long as I remember. Even look at one of the best chronologically correct films of the era, 'The Godfather'. In the end, AL Neri uses a SMith Model 10 witha 4 inch barrell to shoot DOn Barzini (or was it Cuneo? Can't remember). But the point is that he sued a model 10 there.

ALso, I believe Luca Brasi used a 2 inch snubby Model 10 or a Herringto and Richardson model (not sure).

I'd go with a Smith over anything, to be honest. I used to have an old Model 60 snub nose. Check and see if S&W made a model 60 back then, they might have. I loved mine very much, and I can imagine them having a snub nose model 60 out in the late 30's, or that is a plausible and pracitcal firearm if they didn't.

Best of luck wiht your project, I"m a living historian and have a History Degree in US History specializing in WWII, so let me know if you need a hand when you hit 1939 to 1941 era nad aftwerards. More htan happy ot help you out.

Jonesy

7289

Loffelholz,

Here is the real scoop!

The predominent police revolvers in the 1940's were Colt .38 double action revolvers. The most common was prehaps the "Offical Police" a direct descendent of the older ".38 Army Special". Otherwise a uniformed Officer might carry the much larger "New Service" Model which was available not only in .38 Special but a host of more powerful cartridges like .45 Colt and .357 Magnum.

The Elite of the American Police - the FBI favored the very expensive and hard to get Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum, first introduced in 1935. This very deluxe revolver was registered to the original purchaser and available with many different - virtually custom sights. The FBI Agents favored this revolver in Blue Steel with 3 1/2" barrels.

Smith & Wesson did not become THE big player in Police Service revolvers until AFTER WW2, At the time Colt was pretty fat from wartime contracts and snoozed while Smith & Wesson jumped in and took over the Police Market. S&W rode the top of that wave until semi-auto pistols replaced the revolver in the 1980's.

For a 1940's Private Detective the number one choice would be a Colt Detective Special 2" .38. If he was a former uniformed Officer he might have his old "Offical Police" 4" .38 or a "Police Positive Special" also in .38 special with a 4" barrel. The "Police Positive Special" and the "Detective Special" have the same frame and really differ only in the barrel length. The Detective Special was more common than the 2" S&W Military and Police, and is only a little smaller overall.

Other firearms your detective might carry would be a .32 Colt Pocket Model or the identical .380 Model - note .380 is not the same as .38!

How do I know all this? I wrote a fairly extensive history for our local PD, which is pretty representative of most police departments of the 1940's era.

Send me a PM if you need pictures!

Loeffelholz

Well, many thanks to Jones and 7289 for their input on this subject. Interestingly---as with cars, movies, computer systems, cigars, music, et al.---there are afficionados and preferences for one over another.

I've no doubt the Colt Police Positive was the more widely-carried piece, pre-WWII, but I've also learned that the S&W Military & Police also had a loyal customer base among various police departments as well during this period. I should attempt to find out what the Miami Beach P.D. would have carried in the mid-late '30s...

Perhaps I'll make everyone read my book to find out which way my character goes :v

7289, of course I'd be interested in any photos you have---of both the Colt and the S&W, if you've got them. I'd also love to see pics of possible small-caliber backup pieces, such as the ones you indicated...or possibly even smaller, such as a .25...

Again, your expertise and input are most appreciated. I'm forever amazed and delighted by the eclectic group of minds gathered here on AJB {[]

7289

Of course you are correct that the S&W had loyal customers in the Law Enforcement Community in the first half of the 20th Century. It is very possible that an officer would carry a firearm of his own preference, since Municipal Budgets of that era seldom allowed Departments to purchase and issue a standard handgun to all members.

The 1934 Miami Police Pistol Team had 11 members and of that number 2 used Smith & Wessons. On average I would say that is about the proper ratio of Smith & Wesson to Colt during that period.

Your charecter can use whatever you think is proper and a snub S&W would certainly have been available in Miami in 1941.

Loeffelholz

7289 wrote:

The 1934 Miami Police Pistol Team had 11 members and of that number 2 used Smith & Wessons. On average I would say that is about the proper ratio of Smith & Wesson to Colt during that period.

That's interesting! I wonder what made those two guys choose S&W over the 'brand leader'... might be revealing in terms of individual character, and/or personality...no matter which way my story goes, I think this is worthy of notation---in the way Bond compared his weapon to others...TMWTGG comes to mind in that regard.

I hope to follow this character for about 20 years (in fictional time, over the course of several stories), so I've no doubt his tastes will evolve over time...he certainly won't be driving his 1935 Ford Roadster forever!

Thanks very much! {[]

Jones

Glad we could help you out, although I think 7289 has more informatio non this than I do. I'm a strict WWII fanatic. That is my era and basically revolves around the military.

I"d go with a Colt then, if I were you, because 7289 seems ot know what he's doing here and I knew the PD's used S+W's, but as for the model I would be pure conjecture on that.

I've carried a Smith Model 60 that was my father's during the 70s or 60s and I figured you might look into that and see if that was around then, great carry gun! You should research that one.

7289

Jones That Model 60 is a real nice revolver, but didn't come out until 1967. The Chief's Special it is based on was also a Post WW2 revolver.

Loffelholtz: Why choose Smith over Colt? Pure personal perference. Of the two fellows on the Miami Pistol team, one had a 4" M&P, the other a .38-44 - Large Frame, Target Model.

Colt had military contracts for its handguns since the Mexican War in the late 1840's and the long fruitful association between Colt and the US Army lead to their dominance in the revolver market. This carried over to the Police Market too. Colts of that period had a better lock-up than the S&W, but S&W had better timing and actions - both were so beautifully made it's beyond modern comprehension, and you would be equally proud to own either one. Colt just had a nearly unbeatable reputation.

After WW2 Smith & Wesson became very agressive and overtook Colt in the Police Market. Even today S&W still makes a substancial line of revolvers where Colt has virtually abandoned it's cylinder guns.

Loeffelholz

7289, I'm giving serious thought to having a .32 Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless as a backup, or its .380 Model 1908 variant. Very cool-looking weapon; looks like a smallish 1911 B-)

My guy is a gun enthusiast, and will likely have an extensive private arsenal...

7289

Your Detective would be a discerning fellow of impeccable charecter!