Nato watch strap

Double-oh nine

Wow,you guys have real rocket belts here??
Wow,just wow!! Okay so I guess it's a safe bet that someone here might know who actually made(makes?)the NATO watch strap,black/gray striped,as worn on Sean's Rolex Sub?
In Thunderball it appears to be the Blk&green version but,whatever.There are a few knock-offs currently on Ebay.I would like to find one in 22mm,blu/blk.If you've seen one,send up a flare!

Asp9mm

Phoenix Straps made the original twin colour nato straps. They were still trading a few years ago in Wales, don't know whether they still are. The straps are of a higher quality than those found on most sites and Ebay, although the design has changed slightly since the sixties.

The actual colour is an olive grey/black and they did do other regimental colours too such as the RN blue with twin red and white stripe.

Double-oh nine

Excellent! I knew that the second time I saw the(watch) strap,it looked to show military olive on black.So,the Goldfinger model must've been the gray one as generally described.Good eye,ASP9mm!
Darn glad to hear they're done in blue,a good match for my Breitling/blue bezel,chronograph.

Double-oh nine

Oh and by the way,in case my reply suggested that I didn't get it,color wise,I actually did.Gry/blk=appearing grn/blk,right?
I have a theory on the confusion beteween Goldfinger/Thunderball shots,as being likely filmed with alternating amber or blue lenses,a format somewhat new to technicolor back then.

7289

I don't think that the "Goldfinger" watch strap was a NATO strap at all. Hence the confusion over colours and the fact that it is too small for Bond's rolex.

Seems pretty clear to me after watching a couple of DVD versions very carefully that the "Goldfinger" strap has a thin reddish stripe next to the wider black outer stripe. Not exactly NATO.

I noticed while watching my Emma Peel DVD Collection, that in the early black and white episodes, a couple of the actors are wearing wirst watches with bands similiar to the one in "Goldfinger". I believe that the strap for Bond's watch was a commercially available strap marketed in the UK during the early to mid 1960's!

Double-oh nine

I have heard of this,red stripe controversy.In fact,I just read it on a Rolex thread here.Another member is also of the opinion we're seeing lens coloring,film processing.
I feel that color shades are in fact,intensified or washed out,from scene to scene.On the other hand,I am also inclined to believe your DVD observations,having seen such a strap/band,recently online.

7289

If you know where such straps are available, please put up a link.

The notion the red stripe is present due to some property of the camera/film IS possible. The more I look at it the less likely it seems. Especially since the stripe clearly appears in VHS/DVD and remastered DVD versions.

Probably more significent is the fact that Connery's watch strap is not the right size for his watch. If his was a NATO band, made for the Rolex, what explains the wrong size?

In addition, my NATO strap has two stainless loops, and an extra length of material, the loops bracket the watch, which lays on top of the extra length of nylon. Bond's watchband lacks that feature, and appears to be a single strap onto which the mounted!

I cling to the notion that Bond's watchband is an OTC civilian item.

Double-oh nine

I should have marked said strap but it wasn't what I was looking for at the time. Now, I'm scrambling to find it, check here for now;
http://www.antiquewatchcouk.com
http://www.watchworx.co.uk
(Gldfgr close up here http://www.qualitytyme.net they also offer a DR NO-lthr band!)
Also, try Top 100 watch sites and Kelly'slist uk.
Can you describe red stitching? I may just order up the Standard 5 stripe, blk/gry band and have regimental red sewn in. There is still the problem of the strap gathering bands being metal on all new G10's. Hmmm....

Asp9mm

No red stripe on the Goldfinger band, its a camera effect on old stock film.

Double-oh nine

Well,I guess that settles that?

7289

Any source of good stills of the Rolex/Watchband, prehaps publicity photos?

Sorry, I am not sure I buy the film stock theory.

7289

BTW,

Double-oh-Nine,

Thanks for posting the watchband sites!!!

Some pictures (screen captures) that seem to show the Goldfinger Rolex, and it sure does look like the NATO stripe.

But still would like to see some still of the actual watch and band seperate from the film.

Asp9mm

7289 wrote:

Any source of good stills of the Rolex/Watchband, prehaps publicity photos?

Sorry, I am not sure I buy the film stock theory.

This comes directly from Phoenix straps. It's still run by the same family. They are official suppliers to the military and supplied the original straps for the military Sub and bizaarely enough - Seiko.

I'm waiting for Donald Grant to chime in on this, between the two of us we've probably spent not just man hours but man months researching the original straps and vintage Roleys.

Donald Grant

I was just about to chime in and then I saw your thread Asp9mm. Here goes.

I believe that the red stripes on the Connery/Bond strap are a function of the film stock, however I don't have irrefutable proof on this. The Phoenix strap is the best representaion of the Connery/Bond strap in that with wear the grey takes on a greenish hue. One big difference in the movie strap and the Phoenix strap, apart fom the steel loops, is the center black stripe. The Connery/Bond strap has a thick black center stripe while the Phoenix strap does not.

If you look at military Submariners with fixed lug bars and original nato straps, you'll see that the strap is usually narower than the lugs. If you look at James Dowling's book The Best Of Time, many of the military Submariners have narrower straps. I'm not sure if it's a functon of shrinkage, or what but that's the way they look. As I said in my article I believe that the producers went to a nato type strap to impart a military bearing to Bond.

I think that the strap chosen for the Connery/Bond was an off the shelf purchase to ape what the Royal Navy and Royal Marines were wearing.

DG

7289

I would be a "narb" to dispute all that research!

Thanks for all that hard work!

So, as I now understand the "Goldfinger" watch strap history it goes as follows:

The screen used watch strap was probably a look-a-like of the NATO strap, differing in the loops and POSSIBLY having a non-military red stripe.

Question: Were the producers/prop men savvy enough to know of the NATO band and try and copy it? That would be a very fine nuance, and I wouldn't think much thought would have gone into a choice of a strap for oo7's watch - other than to choose nylon for it's water resistant properties.

Asp9mm

Donald Grant wrote:

If you look at James Dowling's book The Best Of Time, many of the military Submariners have narrower straps. I'm not sure if it's a functon of shrinkage, or what but that's the way they look.
DG

The old cotton ones stretch. This has happened with an old unissued Royal Marines Sub that I have with original strap. If you pull them taut you can hear the fibres snapping. I would imagine when they were new and came into contact with water, they would stretch quite abit and become narrower due to this.

Asp9mm

7289 wrote:

The screen used watch strap was probably a look-a-like of the NATO strap, differing in the loops and POSSIBLY having a non-military red stripe.

Question: Were the producers/prop men savvy enough to know of the NATO band and try and copy it? That would be a very fine nuance, and I wouldn't think much thought would have gone into a choice of a strap for oo7's watch - other than to choose nylon for it's water resistant properties.

The Sixties Nato straps did not have these loops, they are quite a modern add-on along with the double strap covering the watch back. As I mentioned in my previous post, many of the Sixties Nato/military straps were actually cotton weave.

Nice avatar by the way, a taped Beretta with stocks removed. Any chance of some better pics? And have you filed the front sight off {[]

Donald Grant

7289 wrote:

I would be a "narb" to dispute all that research!

Thanks for all that hard work!

So, as I now understand the "Goldfinger" watch strap history it goes as follows:

The screen used watch strap was probably a look-a-like of the NATO strap, differing in the loops and POSSIBLY having a non-military red stripe.

Question: Were the producers/prop men savvy enough to know of the NATO band and try and copy it? That would be a very fine nuance, and I wouldn't think much thought would have gone into a choice of a strap for oo7's watch - other than to choose nylon for it's water resistant properties.

Well, you must remember that the Connery/Bond Submariner first appeared in Dr. No on a Crocodile/Alligator strap followed by FRWL with the same strap. When they made Goldfinger, Bond was first seen in the pre-credit sequence wearing a dry suit/wet suit paired with a diving Rolex on a nylon strap. It suggests that someone at EON was aware of what Royal Navy Divers wore in terms of timepieces and how they wore them even if not 100% accurate.

Again it's only circumstantial evidence, but it makes more sense to me than just picking any old strap. Remember EON was very careful about Bond's on screen persona in the beginning. Very little was left to chance. Bond's clothes, watch champagne etc. were all chosen very carefully. So you have to ask your self why would they have Bond wear a nylon strap when he could just as easily have worn the metal riveted Rolex bracelet or the black synthetyic straps with holes that were popular back then.

DG

Bill Tanner

Donald Grant wrote:

So you have to ask your self why would they have Bond wear a nylon strap when he could just as easily have worn the metal riveted Rolex bracelet or the black synthetyic straps with holes that were popular back then.

Presumably for the same reason that military divers were wearing them - whatever that reason might be: To cut down on reflection of the metal bracelet? To cut down on weight?

Donald Grant

Bill Tanner wrote:

Donald Grant wrote:

So you have to ask your self why would they have Bond wear a nylon strap when he could just as easily have worn the metal riveted Rolex bracelet or the black synthetyic straps with holes that were popular back then.

Presumably for the same reason that military divers were wearing them - whatever that reason might be: To cut down on reflection of the metal bracelet? To cut down on weight?

Precisely. It's anti-reflective, easy to cut off if your arm were mangled. The fixed bars made it easy to service as the strap is easily replaced. Regardless of how nice the Rolex bracelet is, I just don't see it doing well in a constant use industrial enviornment. What a nightmare for the quartermaster who has to fix a broken bracelet and muck about with spring pins.

Considering the other strap choices available to EON for Bond, it's my educated opinion that the Connery/Bond strap was carefully chosen to ape what was going on in the real world.

Bill Tanner

Conversely, wasn't this a poor choice for an undercover agent, hoping not to be singled-out as man with a military background?

7289

Since when has James Bond been a "Secret" agent?

Everywhere he goes someone follows him, shoots at him and ALL the women......

Maybe it really is all about his "props"

Billythekid

These Nato straps - much like the US one piece nylon military straps (called for in nearly all US watch specifications - color black) are more for security than for anything to do with the reflective qualities of a bracelet.

A one piece nylon strap threads thru both bars on the watch - thus if one bar breaks (and i've had that happen twice - both in the surf / breakers) the watch still remains attatched to the strap via the second bar. This is also the reason for fixed bars - breaking a fixed bar is very unlikely, unlike a springbar which are prone to fail from time to time.

The strap Bond wore certainly wasn't a true nato in any sense - likely not even "military" in nature. These preppy striped nylon straps were very common during this period - so much so you could find them in local drugstores for about $2. There are a few places which still carry similar straps (now priced at $25) - but none with the same color pattern found on Bonds - which certainly has red stripes between the grey and black stripe ...

Here's the original shot:



and here is the same shot - simply enlarged and "fill light" added:




Hope this is of interest - Kind Regards,

Billy

7289

That sure does look like a red stripe and not a product of the film stock or lighting.

One thing is clear, that is one nice looking setup!

Double-oh nine

RLT Watches has something similar but not exact.Their #8 NATO strap suggests some lineage to the this finally,verified(?)pattern.
http://www.rltwatches.co.uk

Donald Grant

Bill Tanner wrote:

Conversely, wasn't this a poor choice for an undercover agent, hoping not to be singled-out as man with a military background?

Well, I agree but there are a lot of things that Bond does that true spies don't. But beyond that I don't think most civilians of that time period would have had a clue. When I first saw Goldfinger and Thunderball, I did not say to myself that that is a military strap.

As for the comment about red in the strap, yes you can see it on film but that does not mean that was what the strap in fact looked like. Look at Captain Kirk's gold shirt in Star Trek. The actual color was like an avacado green that filmed gold. Same goes for the Connery Bond Trilby, sometimes it appears grey but the manufacturer still sells it and says it was always brown.

As for the "preppy" strap, the real deal is made out of groggsgrain, not nylon. Preppy was not a term used in the 1960's. That term came in to vogue in the 1980's. The collegiate look, however was used. I don't think the producers were looking for the collegiate look for Bond. Ultra cool and sophisticated yes, collegiate no.

As the RLT site shows the colors on the nato staps denote belonging to a particular military organization or regiment, like ties.

DG

Billythekid

Well - as for it having or not having the red stripes ; it *could be* an artifact, but i doubt it. It seems very strange the artifact would be so perfect on each stripe - but then again who knows if it were black and grey then either. From this type of reasoning we could guess that the colors were nearly anything - perhaps they were really navy blue and olive ?

I use the term preppy due to its nature now, in this day = denoting someone or something trying to achieve a look. At the time this type of strap (regardless of nylon or groggsgrain) were very much "In Fashion" - which as you point out the producers were very interested in.

As for what was actually being used at this time - here is an early example of a British / Nato strap. They certainly did have the hardware from a very early start - something the Bond strap clearly doesn't not have:




Note the Broadarrow - as per Crown Property - stamped on the inside of the strap. Not a great view of the hardware on the other side - but clear enough for the purpose of knowing they were there.

and Bond's strap - note the "keeper" is the very same type of material (yes we can go round and round about nylon or groggsgrain) - but it certainly does not have the metal hardware that a British military strap of the same period would have:



Just my .02c

Kind Regards,

Billy

Donald Grant

Billythekid wrote:

Well - as for it having or not having the red stripes ; it *could be* an artifact, but i doubt it. It seems very strange the artifact would be so perfect on each stripe - but then again who knows if it were black and grey then either. From this type of reasoning we could guess that the colors were nearly anything - perhaps they were really navy blue and olive ?

I use the term preppy due to its nature now, in this day = denoting someone or something trying to achieve a look. At the time this type of strap (regardless of nylon or groggsgrain) were very much "In Fashion" - which as you point out the producers were very interested in.

As for what was actually being used at this time - here is an early example of a British / Nato strap. They certainly did have the hardware from a very early start - something the Bond strap clearly doesn't not have:




Note the Broadarrow - as per Crown Property - stamped on the inside of the strap. Not a great view of the hardware on the other side - but clear enough for the purpose of knowing they were there.

and Bond's strap - note the "keeper" is the very same type of material (yes we can go round and round about nylon or groggsgrain) - but it certainly does not have the metal hardware that a British military strap of the same period would have:



Just my .02c

Kind Regards,

Billy

The red does not look all that uniform to me. You can't see definite demarcation lines at all like those pictures on the RLT site. But again this is all conjecture.

As for the strap Connery wears, I never said he was wearing a true military strap. I said he was "aping" the look.

By the way even though that photo of Connery is black and white and somewhat murky, all you can see on his strap are two lighter stripes.

DG

Edit: I think a good deal of the photos you've posted will be removed. You're not supposed to post images that are owned by EON.

7289

This old horse is panting pretty hard, but I hope it's not dead yet!!

When I first got the DVD and played around looking at Bond's watch, not knowing about forums, NATO straps or anything like that, I thought the band was "groggsgrain".

As for the colors. Hopefully someone can come up with a colour shot like the "murky" one already posted. I will agree that in "Thunderball" the red stripes do not appear.

Billythekid

I think the fact that the red stripe (or those which *I* believe are there) are so close in color to the grey / black that they're difficult to see in a good photo - much less a black and white photo i had to enlarge to show the keeper feature.

As for deleting my photos - well, if the Admin feel that is what needs to be done please let me know or feel free to do so themselves. That said i think if that's the rule then quite a few members here need to look for new avatars ... LOL Not to mention cleaning up quite a few other posts with similar photos

Kind Regards,

B

Asp9mm

We have all seen this red stripe pic for the last 6 years at least. There are hundreds of threads here and on TZ about the strap and many 'experts' have weighed in on the argument. A few film experts have said that it is film stock making the stripes red. The original suppliers have said they only supplied duo toned straps. In TB the strap is definately two tone (why would they change)? Strap makers have chimed in that such a thin red stripe would not have been easy to make then (and why?). I myself have had this conversation many times and the overwhelming evidence supports a two-tone and not red-stripe theory. I wanted it to be so because I commissioned a modern copy years ago with red stripes, but this is not so The overwhelming evidence form years of many forum argument and evidence presented points to NO red stripe.