I'll tell you guys, I'm far from the sharpest knife in the drawer but it seems pretty obvious to me what Bond's motivations were in that scene, and Bond hardly needed to be clairvoyant -- it simply had to occur to him to ask the question "How did I get burned on LeChiffre's "tell?'" And if you discount happenstance, the obvious answer is -- Mathis (taking into consideration that Bond doesn't suspect a woman he's falling in love with, which isn't exactly unheard of for a guy. I take it that's one of the "mistakes" Craig was referring to before the filming). As for the lightbulb going off in Bond's head: we've all seen similar scenes in numerous other movies -- Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense, for instance. It's like "Holy s*** --- of course, how could I be so stupid ..." And of course, if Mathis is a traitor, then Vesper might very well be in danger since Bond foiled LeChiffre's plans.
I think that on the contrary, for Bond to NOT ponder how he could have been so wrong about the tell and to NOT conclude that Mathis might well be in league with LeChiffre would be a serious lapse in logic. Because otherwise, how did LeChiffre know Bond had identified his "tell?" There were only two people Bond voiced his suspicions to, Mathis and Vesper. (No doubt in the Brosnan era, LeChiffre would have informed Bond that there was a tiny microphone in the swizzle stick of his martini that picked up the conversation. That no doubt would have seemed perfectly reasonable to some. Hey, happens all the time ... Just ask Q!)
But this Bond is a little more real. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that Bond returned straight from being at the brink of death by poisoning to the game -- where concentrating on the cards at hand rather than pondering the earlier, losing hand would seem to be vital -- one might reasonably ask: what the $%#*!!! took him so long????? But again -- it is not unusual for people to miss things that are right in front of them (happens all the time to the Unholy Three ). I didn't expect Bond's suspicion of Mathis because I already knew, having read the book, that Vesper was the traitor. That may be true of many people and one of the reasons Mathis didn't stand out to the audience as he did to Bond in the fictional world of Casino Royale.
The scene is just poorly written imo, but then you're either a believer or not. I agree with hh that's it's crazy Bond wouldn't think about who LC discovered his tell, but no less crazy than gabbing about it to Mathis and Vesper and discussing tactics in the very casino room no less – necessary exposition but obvious all the same. Bear in mind this is a Bond who is less than convivial or chatty in the first half of the film, and suddenly he's been reading Dale Carnagie... )
Some discussion over the table with V about how LC had discovered his 'tell', like, phew, glad that didn't come to anything in the end, with V looking ambivalent at times, would have set things up. Maybe it got cut.
The scene is just poorly written imo, but then you're either a believer or not. I agree with hh that's it's crazy Bond wouldn't think about who LC discovered his tell, but no less crazy than gabbing about it to Mathis and Vesper and discussing tactics in the very casino room no less – necessary exposition but obvious all the same. Bear in mind this is a Bond who is less than convivial or chatty in the first half of the film, and suddenly he's been reading Dale Carnagie... )
Memo to Babs:
For the benefit of some Bond fans: the next time Bond needs to explain a plot point to the audience, please try to use a less unbelievable device than simply blurting it out to the other characters. How about if next time Q issued him a "Cone of Silence?" Just have Q use his usual by-the-numbers dialogue about it being a "prototype" and Bond could take it along on a whim. That way it would be handy later on in the story.
Yes, I know -- that's what Maxwell Smart use to do, but EON could always buy the rights to the idea. Let me know.
No doubt in the Brosnan era, LeChiffre would have informed Bond that there was a tiny microphone in the swizzle stick of his martini that picked up the conversation. That no doubt would have seemed perfectly reasonable to some. Hey, happens all the time ... Just ask Q!)
Actually, that magical Q technology transcends the so called "Brosnan era," this time appealing to the demographics who know too well what it means to moan "help I've fallen, I can't get up!"
But this Bond is a little more real. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that Bond returned straight from being at the brink of death by poisoning to the game
Yup, yup, yup! Just as 13 to 55 year old males dream of being Bond on the prowl, CR captured the imagination of AARP constituents...having an elite team EMT at your exclusive disposal in real time, 24/7, tracking your vital signs remotely while you go about enjoying boci ball or the early bird special at the senior buffett center...yeah, one of the more credible parts of the film that cemented its believability!
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
I dunno supes, I've suspended disbelief and gone along with far greater leaps in Bond films...this just isn't such-a-much for me.
That's just it, there's been somre really notable plot holes that were DOA, like GF going through his elaborate ruse at the hoods convention, though he would end up killing off the hoods anyway, or Blofeld not recognizing Bond in OHMSS...but "Mathis needs me" actually is not a lost cause and I personally feel that there's an explanation out there, whether it's in Haggis' head or on the cutting room floor...or it's something as plainly obvious as what HH suggested.
The thing that gets me, though, is how this ambiguity has been explained away, again, through the filter of Brosnan vs. Craig, such as Craig's instinct/intellect being more self-evident and above the demands of conventional A+B reasoning, etc. etc. News flash, it's not all about Craig, or Brosnan.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
I watched CR '06 the other day and can not see the confusion since the plot moves very smoothly. I will do another recap in the hopes this will solve the mystey.
1) Game Over ...LC, Leiter leave. LC to plan what to do next, Leiter leaves to contact LC. Bond who was half dead a while before is elated, and wants to celebrate his victory with a meal. Mathis has left the Salon Privee, presumably to watch LC.
2) At dinner Vesper gets a text from Mathis. "The American's have made contact with LC". Looks like everything is cleaning up nicely. Apparently, Mathis IS watching LC.
3) A few minutes later Vesper recieves another text from Mathis. Mathis "needs" Vesper for something. Since the Vesper/Bond conversation is at a dead end, Vesper jumps at the chance to leave (they are not lovers yet - so no after meal diddling!) Veper departs leaving Bond alone for the first time since the end of the game.
4) Mathis??? Bond muses, what the heck is up to? Mathis had not congratulated Bond on the win or personally updated Bond on post game intrigue. That seems rather odd. What does Mathis need Vesper for? Bond figures he had better follow Vesper and find out for himself what's going on.
5) Bond exits the hotel, sees kidnap and gives chase.
Have I missed something or are we talking about Peter Sellers in CR'67. Because I don't understand why Sterling Moss chases the kidnappers in that movie on foot?
But this Bond is a little more real. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that Bond returned straight from being at the brink of death by poisoning to the game
Yup, yup, yup! Just as 13 to 55 year old males dream of being Bond on the prowl, CR captured the imagination of AARP constituents...having an elite team EMT at your exclusive disposal in real time, 24/7, tracking your vital signs remotely while you go about enjoying boci ball or the early bird special at the senior buffett center...yeah, one of the more credible parts of the film that cemented its believability!
Having their vital signs monitored 24/7 would indeed be a dream come true for old AARP coots like me, Supes. But I would hope that the "elite EMT team" you refer to was capable of following the plot of a Bond film.
I dunno supes, I've suspended disbelief and gone along with far greater leaps in Bond films...this just isn't such-a-much for me.
That's just it, there's been somre really notable plot holes that were DOA, like GF going through his elaborate ruse at the hoods convention, though he would end up killing off the hoods anyway, or Blofeld not recognizing Bond in OHMSS...but "Mathis needs me" actually is not a lost cause and I personally feel that there's an explanation out there, whether it's in Haggis' head or on the cutting room floor...or it's something as plainly obvious as what HH suggested.
The thing that gets me, though, is how this ambiguity has been explained away, again, through the filter of Brosnan vs. Craig, such as Craig's instinct/intellect being more self-evident and above the demands of conventional A+B reasoning, etc. etc. News flash, it's not all about Craig, or Brosnan.
Agree that there's likely a Haggis/cutting room floor bit missing, but it also works as-is IMO: Bond's been focused on beating Le Chiffre, Vesper mentions Mathis a couple times while he's eating then walks off, and the bell finally goes off in Bond's head.
Not getting the Brosnan v. Craig thing at all... But I haven't read all of the arguments either (just yours ;% ). IMHO it's just a Bond thing, and it works for me.
SB_DiamondNorth Miami Beach, FLPosts: 126MI6 Agent
4) Mathis??? Bond muses, what the heck is he up to? Mathis had not congratulated Bond on the win or personally updated Bond on post game intrigue. That seems rather odd. What does Mathis need Vesper for? Bond figures he had better follow Vesper and find out for himself what's going on.
5) Bond exits the hotel, sees kidnap and gives chase.
quote]
When you put it that way, it makes more sense to me, I guess I didn't proccess that as fast as Bond did in the movie. While he is running to the car I'm still going, "Wait, what?" So I guess it's one of those things that you have to have speedy deduction skills like Bond does to get that. Thanks! {[]
Comments
I think that on the contrary, for Bond to NOT ponder how he could have been so wrong about the tell and to NOT conclude that Mathis might well be in league with LeChiffre would be a serious lapse in logic. Because otherwise, how did LeChiffre know Bond had identified his "tell?" There were only two people Bond voiced his suspicions to, Mathis and Vesper. (No doubt in the Brosnan era, LeChiffre would have informed Bond that there was a tiny microphone in the swizzle stick of his martini that picked up the conversation. That no doubt would have seemed perfectly reasonable to some. Hey, happens all the time ... Just ask Q!)
But this Bond is a little more real. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that Bond returned straight from being at the brink of death by poisoning to the game -- where concentrating on the cards at hand rather than pondering the earlier, losing hand would seem to be vital -- one might reasonably ask: what the $%#*!!! took him so long????? But again -- it is not unusual for people to miss things that are right in front of them (happens all the time to the Unholy Three
Some discussion over the table with V about how LC had discovered his 'tell', like, phew, glad that didn't come to anything in the end, with V looking ambivalent at times, would have set things up. Maybe it got cut.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Memo to Babs:
For the benefit of some Bond fans: the next time Bond needs to explain a plot point to the audience, please try to use a less unbelievable device than simply blurting it out to the other characters. How about if next time Q issued him a "Cone of Silence?" Just have Q use his usual by-the-numbers dialogue about it being a "prototype" and Bond could take it along on a whim. That way it would be handy later on in the story.
Yes, I know -- that's what Maxwell Smart use to do, but EON could always buy the rights to the idea. Let me know.
Hugs and kisses
Highhopes
Is this discussion just for discussions sake?
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
'explained' isn't quite the word I would use.
Actually, that magical Q technology transcends the so called "Brosnan era," this time appealing to the demographics who know too well what it means to moan "help I've fallen, I can't get up!"
Yup, yup, yup! Just as 13 to 55 year old males dream of being Bond on the prowl, CR captured the imagination of AARP constituents...having an elite team EMT at your exclusive disposal in real time, 24/7, tracking your vital signs remotely while you go about enjoying boci ball or the early bird special at the senior buffett center...yeah, one of the more credible parts of the film that cemented its believability!
That's just it, there's been somre really notable plot holes that were DOA, like GF going through his elaborate ruse at the hoods convention, though he would end up killing off the hoods anyway, or Blofeld not recognizing Bond in OHMSS...but "Mathis needs me" actually is not a lost cause and I personally feel that there's an explanation out there, whether it's in Haggis' head or on the cutting room floor...or it's something as plainly obvious as what HH suggested.
The thing that gets me, though, is how this ambiguity has been explained away, again, through the filter of Brosnan vs. Craig, such as Craig's instinct/intellect being more self-evident and above the demands of conventional A+B reasoning, etc. etc. News flash, it's not all about Craig, or Brosnan.
1) Game Over ...LC, Leiter leave. LC to plan what to do next, Leiter leaves to contact LC. Bond who was half dead a while before is elated, and wants to celebrate his victory with a meal. Mathis has left the Salon Privee, presumably to watch LC.
2) At dinner Vesper gets a text from Mathis. "The American's have made contact with LC". Looks like everything is cleaning up nicely. Apparently, Mathis IS watching LC.
3) A few minutes later Vesper recieves another text from Mathis. Mathis "needs" Vesper for something. Since the Vesper/Bond conversation is at a dead end, Vesper jumps at the chance to leave (they are not lovers yet - so no after meal diddling!) Veper departs leaving Bond alone for the first time since the end of the game.
4) Mathis??? Bond muses, what the heck is up to? Mathis had not congratulated Bond on the win or personally updated Bond on post game intrigue. That seems rather odd. What does Mathis need Vesper for? Bond figures he had better follow Vesper and find out for himself what's going on.
5) Bond exits the hotel, sees kidnap and gives chase.
Have I missed something or are we talking about Peter Sellers in CR'67. Because I don't understand why Sterling Moss chases the kidnappers in that movie on foot?
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
Having their vital signs monitored 24/7 would indeed be a dream come true for old AARP coots like me, Supes. But I would hope that the "elite EMT team" you refer to was capable of following the plot of a Bond film.
Agree that there's likely a Haggis/cutting room floor bit missing, but it also works as-is IMO: Bond's been focused on beating Le Chiffre, Vesper mentions Mathis a couple times while he's eating then walks off, and the bell finally goes off in Bond's head.
Not getting the Brosnan v. Craig thing at all...