Dench's M: In The Field Again (!)

Loeffelholz

Well...here we go again

http://www.mi6.co.uk/news/index.php?itemid=5441

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Dame Judi as M (although I'm ready for them to take the role in another direction), but I'm growing increasingly tired of the head of MI6 continually heading out into the field to assert 'hands-on' control over each and every storyline as it unfolds...once in a while is fine---but she hasn't stayed home since TND! X-(

If she's not going to be assassinated, I say keep her at Vauxhall...if she is...I'm fine with that---but do it in London :v

emtiem

I didn't mind her 'getting away' in CR- it made sense for her to go and brief Bond (and that's all she was doing rather than the hands-on approach of the last few); and film is a visual medium, and I'd rather have a briefing with a Bahamas beach as a backdrop than the laminate wall of her office!

SpectreBlofeld

It's still not as ridiculous as M inexplicably showing up wherever Bond happens to be, with a fully-staffed office in an Egyptian tomb, a sunken freighter, or a nuclear submarine... complete with stately oak desk and Q-branch in tow.

I'm looking at you, Moore-era!

Dan Same

SpectreBlofeld wrote:

I'm looking at you, Moore-era!

Say what you want about the Moore era, but if Bond had broken into M's apartment in that era, he would have been dealt with, unlike in CR.

Dan Same

Oh no. I'm completely with you Loeff. Why can't M just stay in her office and only be seen at the start, and possibly end, of the film? I mean, not only do we have Judy Dench playing M (it's been discussed many times so I won't go back there) but she was kidnapped in TWINE and was involved in that ridiculous scene in the train station in DAD. I didn't have too much of a problem with her venturing out in the field in CR, however for Bond 22, I would very hope that her screen time is minimal and she doesn't leave the office. (Although even in CR, she could have sent the mission info to Bond without meeting him in the field.)

Loeffelholz wrote:

but she hasn't stayed home since TND! X-(

She also didn't even stay home in that film, at least not in the office, considering that she went to the airport. Would GE be the only Brosnan film in which M didn't leave M16 headquarters?

Loeffelholz wrote:

If she's not going to be assassinated

That would be wonderful. I would really love for M to be assassinated. )

emtiem

SpectreBlofeld wrote:

It's still not as ridiculous as M inexplicably showing up wherever Bond happens to be, with a fully-staffed office in an Egyptian tomb, a sunken freighter, or a nuclear submarine... complete with stately oak desk and Q-branch in tow.

I'm looking at you, Moore-era!

The submarine was in Roger's time, was it..?

Dan Same wrote:

Say what you want about the Moore era, but if Bond had broken into M's apartment in that era, he would have been dealt with, unlike in CR.

Hardly! RogerBond embarrasses M in front of the Prime Minister, Minister of Defence and god knows who else by repeatedly shagging birds in front of them all in public! And then M shows their mutual lack of respect by not believing his best field agent when he says he saw a lab in Venice in Moonraker!

Dan Same

emtiem wrote:

Hardly! RogerBond embarrasses M in front of the Prime Minister, Minister of Defence and god knows who else by repeatedly shagging birds in front of them all in public!

Well, Bond was interrupted. He didn't intend to ambarass M in these situations but 'duty' called. )

emtiem

Dan Same wrote:

Why can't M just stay in her office and only be seen at the start, and possibly end, of the film? I mean, not only do we have Judy Dench playing M

I think you've answered your own question there! You have an Oscar winner, you may as well use her. And M is a pretty important character- especially after CR where Bond's relationship with her is quite an important part of establishing our main character's personality.

Dan Same

emtiem wrote:

You have an Oscar winner, you may as well use her.

Indeed. I have nothing against Dench (I think she's a wonderful actress who can be a splendour to behold) but I've never liked the way she became so important in the Bond films, with her being kidnapped in TWINE being an extreme example.

emtiem wrote:

And M is a pretty important character- especially after CR where Bond's relationship with her is quite an important part of establishing our main character's personality.

It's also an important part of why CR will never be one of my favourite Bond films.

SpectreBlofeld

emtiem wrote:

SpectreBlofeld wrote:

It's still not as ridiculous as M inexplicably showing up wherever Bond happens to be, with a fully-staffed office in an Egyptian tomb, a sunken freighter, or a nuclear submarine... complete with stately oak desk and Q-branch in tow.

I'm looking at you, Moore-era!

The submarine was in Roger's time, was it..?

True, there was one in YOLT. I can't remember if the sub in the AVTAK opener had a portable M office or not - the attempt to blot out the California Girls surf sequence forever from my memory has affected the rest of the pre-titles sequence in my mind, unfortunately.

emtiem

Dan Same wrote:

emtiem wrote:

And M is a pretty important character- especially after CR where Bond's relationship with her is quite an important part of establishing our main character's personality.

It's also an important part of why CR will never be one of my favourite Bond films.

Eh? Because M is an important character who's actually used well? I don't understand why that would make you dislike a film. I imagine if M hadn't been in it at all you'd have hit the roof: you seem to have so exact tastes about what you allow in a Bond film that I'm not sure any new 007 flick could ever hope to please you.

Dan Same

emtiem wrote:

Eh? Because M is an important character who's actually used well? I don't understand why that would make you dislike a film.

Because I don't think that she was used well. I dislike the psychoanalyzing that was a feature of CR's M (similarly to GE's M) and I also think she was quite weak in terms of how she dealt with Bond.

emtiem wrote:

I imagine if M hadn't been in it at all you'd have hit the roof: you seem to have so exact tastes about what you allow in a Bond film that I'm not sure any new 007 flick could ever hope to please you.

Give me a break. I should have known you would say something about this. My tastes (exact or not) suite me perfectly fine, and plenty of Bond films have pleased me. CR wasn't one of these (although nor did it completely displease me.) But why does it matter whether CR pleased me or not? We're talking about M.

jetsetwilly

ON TOPIC please. Keep spats and personal insults to PMs.

walther p99

That would be a nice change if M just stayed at M16 the whole film and we didnt hear alot from her, like in GE, rather then be where Bond is

Loeffelholz

emtiem wrote:

I didn't mind her 'getting away' in CR- it made sense for her to go and brief Bond (and that's all she was doing rather than the hands-on approach of the last few); and film is a visual medium, and I'd rather have a briefing with a Bahamas beach as a backdrop than the laminate wall of her office!

Well, that's all well and good...and I didn't mind it so much in CR, as it's the first '00' mission for Bond, who's proven himself to be something of a loose cannon on deck...but being there to personally supervise the removal of Solange's corpse---'tut-tutting' at Bond all the while---is a bit 'hands-on' for the head of MI6, IMRO, the fabulous locale notwithstanding.

And it's true that both Bernard Lee and Robert Brown also tended to 'get out' a lot---Brown's desk in the back of the C-130 in TLD was just too much ) ---but I'm beginning to wonder if we'll ever just have M sending Bond out on missions ever again.

I understand she's got a mantle-shelf somewhere, where Oscar statuettes are multiplying like rabbits, and they're very anxious to keep Dame Judi happy by giving her lovely places to go, and things to do, as M...but I'd just as soon have the "M's World Tour!" formula element go the way of Q and Moneypenny...

blueman

I don't mind M getting out a bit, just how it's handled is the thing: CR was good, they could do more of that and it'd be fine by me.

jetsetwilly

There are in fact only four films where all M has done is sit in an office and give Bond a mission: DN, FRWL, OP and GE. M's appearances outside the office have gone from the sublime (a couple of trips to the MOD in TB and TND) to the ridiculous (a trip to Ascot, followed by a jaunt to Paris to bail Bond out in AVTAK; off to Vienna to see Kara Milovy play in TND; and, of course, turning up at Bond's flat to give him his assignment in LALD).

So this is hardly a new trend, nor is it one that has, in my opinion, proved damaging to the series. M's appearance at Solange's death scene was more about the recovery of the rogue 007, than her demise, and so has similarities to Robert Brown's jetting out to Key West in LTK.

Yes, if you've got Judi Dench on staff, you want to use her, though I hardly think she is making diva-like demands for more script time. And in fact, one could argue that this is a reconnection with the M character. From around DAF Bernard Lee's M stopped being a father figure to 007 and instead became a source of comedy who Bond either shows up or flabberghasts with his knowledge, while Robert Brown is just a cuddly uncle - you expect him to slip Bond a 20p piece so he can buy an ice cream. Q had become far more important as a character to the series.

By expanding Judi Dench's importance to the plot they're re-emphasising Bond's relationship to M - remember in the novel of DAF he says he's already married to a man named M! And let's be honest, on a purely cinematic level, isn't it great to see talented actors like Judi Dench and Daniel Craig having a pop at one another?

Sir Hillary Bray

Once they put M in the sub for YOLT, the admiral was out of the bag, so to speak. Sure, the random M offices in far-flung locales are unrealistic, but so are hollowed-out volcanos, space-laser fights, invisible cars, etc. I don't mind that M gets out, and I've always thought of his/her offices all over the world as fun in-jokes with the audience. Kind of like Q dressed as an Eastern Orthodox priest.

What I don't like is when M gets too much screen time and becomes too involved in the plot itself, irrespective of where he/she is. Certainly, this trend has coincided with Dame Judi's involvement, for all the reasons everyone has already stated.

My ultimate reaction to this will hinge less on where M is and more on what she is doing.

Tee Hee

jetsetwilly wrote:

There are in fact only four films where all M has done is sit in an office and give Bond a mission: DN, FRWL, OP and GE.

In OP, M rides with Bond to the border. In GE, M spends some time in the situation room with Bond and Tanner. So really, DN and FRWL are the only films in which M is completely confined to the office.

Personally, I could care less if M goes out into the field, providing it works. However, I agree that M's role in the Bond films should be minimal.

jetsetwilly

I'd forgotten about the Berlin jaunt; thank you Tee Hee. But in fairness, the situation room in GE is just down the corridor from her office, so it's not much of a trip for her

Tee Hee

jetsetwilly wrote:

I'd forgotten about the Berlin jaunt; thank you Tee Hee. But in fairness, the situation room in GE is just down the corridor from her office, so it's not much of a trip for her

Fair enough. Then couldn't the same be said of M's presence in the conference room in TB?

darenhat

I personally have never had a problem with M's various 'field' appearances, whether it be Lee, Brown, or Dench.

This news is only disturbing for me because I have grown to dislike Dench's M to a high degree. The character has been played so inconsistently by her: From GE's 'I eat broken glass and hate 00's' attitude to 'Bond's my main man and can fix this situation' in TND, TWINE's 'I really just want to be a cuddly mother to Elecktra' and finally 'You're such a screw-up, Bond' in DAD, then 'You're such a screw-up, Bond - here's your 00 status' in CR.

I knew she would be in Bond 22 - this news only reminded me that I have to sit through another schizophrenic manifestion of 'M' in the upcoming film.

emtiem

Sir Hillary Bray wrote:

What I don't like is when M gets too much screen time and becomes too involved in the plot itself, irrespective of where he/she is. Certainly, this trend has coincided with Dame Judi's involvement, for all the reasons everyone has already stated.

My ultimate reaction to this will hinge less on where M is and more on what she is doing.

Yeah- it depends. I don't really like her becoming a sort of agent alongside 007 as she was in a couple of Brosnans, but I don't mind her playing a large part in Bond's journey- she is his mother figure after all, so she should play a large part in his thinking. Her interacting with the baddies is less successful and so far has detracted slightly from Bond's 'man alone' role.

darenhat wrote:

This news is only disturbing for me because I have grown to dislike Dench's M to a high degree. The character has been played so inconsistently by her: From GE's 'I eat broken glass and hate 00's' attitude to 'Bond's my main man and can fix this situation' in TND, TWINE's 'I really just want to be a cuddly mother to Elecktra' and finally 'You're such a screw-up, Bond' in DAD, then 'You're such a screw-up, Bond - here's your 00 status' in CR.

I don't think that you can blame her for that- she didn't write the things. And I'm not sure any of those really contradict each other- she gains respect for Bond during GE, so it makes sense that she likes him in TND. As to Bond being a screw-up in DAD... well, he is. In CR she's essentially a new character; she's vampier, more manipulative than the Brosnan M.
You can tell she's a different character as she isn't drinking constantly!

jetsetwilly

Tee Hee wrote:

jetsetwilly wrote:

I'd forgotten about the Berlin jaunt; thank you Tee Hee. But in fairness, the situation room in GE is just down the corridor from her office, so it's not much of a trip for her

Fair enough. Then couldn't the same be said of M's presence in the conference room in TB?

Yes; but then he turned up in the MOD's crisis room with the Minister of Defence later in the film (when he tells the Minister Bond has some interesting leads)...

Loeffelholz

I'd love M to be restricted to government buildings...just for one film! :v

If nothing else, it would force Eon to either come up with something noteworthy for an 'old school'-style presentation of the character---or, better still, reduce the character's presence altogether: two scenes, and out.

Still hoping an assassin's bullet will find her... :v Or a bomb... :v Or a squirt gun filled with a poisonous liquid :v

emtiem

Loeffelholz wrote:

If nothing else, it would force Eon to either come up with something noteworthy for an 'old school'-style presentation of the character---or, better still, reduce the character's presence altogether: two scenes, and out.

But as jetsetwilly's pointed out- there's only three films in which M actually stays in the office! So an 'old school'-style presentation is exactly what we're getting!
Not really sure why you'd want to reduce M's presence just as the relationship between her and Bond is getting interesting- I love the way that he'll break the rules and yet do what she says because she's the only person he actually respects. There's an edge that has never been there before.

Loeffelholz

emtiem wrote:

Loeffelholz wrote:

If nothing else, it would force Eon to either come up with something noteworthy for an 'old school'-style presentation of the character---or, better still, reduce the character's presence altogether: two scenes, and out.

But as jetsetwilly's pointed out- there's only three films in which M actually stays in the office! So an 'old school'-style presentation is exactly what we're getting!

?:) M briefing Bond on a beach is old school? If you say so!

I'm not talking about M accompanying Bond for drinks with a gold or diamond expert...that sort of stuff is fine; I'm just tired of M's traveling road show, where she travels round the globe just to bitch him out in person.* Apparently there are a lot of fans who like that; I'm increasingly not one of them...but it's a small enough gripe and it seems, alas, that Eon has become addicted to that aspect of the formula---the reboot notwithstanding

emtiem wrote:

Not really sure why you'd want to reduce M's presence just as the relationship between her and Bond is getting interesting

Hopefully it will continue to be interesting; see * above.

emtiem wrote:

I love the way that he'll break the rules and yet do what she says because she's the only person he actually respects. There's an edge that has never been there before.

I'll grant you that. The dynamic between them is more interesting than it was with Brosnan---at least, to me it is. If they do a modern cinematic spin on Bond accompanying M to Blades (naturally not a men's club nowadays! ), something along those lines, where Bond is able to catch someone---a potential villain---cheating at bridge (or whatever), I'd find that interesting, because it would actually be building on their relationship, so that we can watch Bond's stock rise with M as it happens.

But just having Dame Judi show up in the desert, or on the beach, or in Antarctica, or in a rainforest---just for the sake of being there---won't 'do it' for me.

emtiem

Loeffelholz wrote:

Don't get that at all ?:) M briefing Bond on a beach is old school? If you say so

Well, yeah. Is that less old school than inside a pyramid or a submarine?

Loeffelholz wrote:

I'm just tired of M's traveling road show, where she travels round the globe just to bitch him out in person.

Also for an 'old-school' version of this, see Moonraker. There are probably more, but it's late and I'm off to bed soon

Loeffelholz wrote:

The dynamic between them is more interesting than it was with Brosnan---at least, to me it is. If they do a modern cinematic spin on Bond accompanying M to Blades (naturally not a men's club nowadays! ), something along those lines, where Bond is able to catch someone---a potential villain---cheating at bridge (or whatever), I'd find that interesting, because it would actually be building on their relationship, so that we can watch Bond's stock rise with M as it happens.

That's a nice idea. Seeing M awkwardly and reluctantly ask James to do a personal favour would grant an interesting twist to the new films.

Loeffelholz wrote:

But just having Dame Judi show up in the desert, or on the beach, or in Antarctica, or in a rainforest---just for the sake of being there---won't 'do it' for me.

Is that likely? And if so; why not? The backdrop is nicer to look at than a set of an office, isn't it? Plus it rather breaks the flow to have Bond scurry back to London every ten minutes.

Loeffelholz

emtiem wrote:

Loeffelholz wrote:

Don't get that at all ?:) M briefing Bond on a beach is old school? If you say so

Well, yeah. Is that less old school than inside a pyramid or a submarine?

The submarine was fine, since Bond's apparent death made a secret mission briefing crucial to the plot; the pyramid...uh

emtiem wrote:

Loeffelholz wrote:

I'm just tired of M's traveling road show, where she travels round the globe just to bitch him out in person.

Also for an 'old-school' version of this, see Moonraker. There are probably more, but it's late and I'm off to bed soon

Nothing old school about the MR film, IMO: wretchedly new school X-(

emtiem wrote:

Loeffelholz wrote:

But just having Dame Judi show up in the desert, or on the beach, or in Antarctica, or in a rainforest---just for the sake of being there---won't 'do it' for me.

Is that likely? And if so; why not? The backdrop is nicer to look at than a set of an office, isn't it? Plus it rather breaks the flow to have Bond scurry back to London every ten minutes.

I think the rainforest probably is likely, or something very near it, given the South American locations intimated

I actually rather like seeing M's office---especially if we only see it at the beginning of the film And Bond doesn't have to scurry back anywhere, particularly in the age of encoded satellite transmission. She can bitch at him from Vauxhall, no matter where his mission takes him---and he can switch her off :v

I'm still hoping that M will reinstall the tracking device in Bond's wrist---and that he'll remove it, and put it in the pocket of a cab driver, or someone else utterly unrelated to the plot of the film B-)

Loeffelholz

Loeffelholz wrote:

And it's true that both Bernard Lee and Robert Brown also tended to 'get out' a lot

Yes...as I indicated here, on page one of this thread, Dame Judi's globetrotting is far from unprecedented...but your itemized list is quite thorough, and much appreciated.

My primary point is that, since they seem to be trying to move the modern-era Bond away from the more tired aspects of the Precious Classic Formula, perhaps the "M's World Tour!" element should also be considered for similar refurbishment

Still, obviously there's an abundant audience who appreciates the head of MI6 trotting out to meet with Bond wherever he's engaged on a mission for Her Majesty's Secret Service. I suppose my Flemingist roots are showing, here. I like Bond to go on his missions, and M to simply send him.

My concern is: Yes, we've an Oscar winner in the cast, and obviously Eon is inclined to give her plenty of work...but where do we draw the line? My fear is that soon we'll have to endure her---wide-eyed---in the front seat of the DBS, alongside Bond, as he screams round winding country roads and deploys missiles against pursuing baddies

I suppose the pertinent question is: how much M is too much, and will we know when we get there?

Georgiboy

Maybe M can become Bond's new sidekick! Then they can get there own theme song and nemesis and fight crime(being sarcastic ).

M needs to stay in her office, behind her desk, and work on boring paperwork or this will go from a serious bond series to a Batman and Robin type of thing.