I didn't say you had to check with me. Just in the same way you have the freedom to express your sympathy for her, I have the right to give my opinion on how I feel she deserves none. Seems to me nobodys opinion is acceptable unless it is the same as yours.
I never said that nobody's opinion is acceptable unless it is the same as mine. However this is a thread which was specifically started to express sympathy for Amy. I wasn't a fan of Charlton Heston's gun politics, however I didn't say so in the tributes thread, as it wasn't the place. There is a time and place for everything. The fact that you hijack (and I use that term deliberately) a thread like this with these views shows that you are a very malicious person.
Again I didn't compare Mugabe and Winehouse, I compared your views on Amy's situation with the views I would guess you would have on Mugabe stubbing his toe.
And the fact that you would deduce that I would have sympathy for Mugabe, if he stabbed his toe, based on my sympathy for Amy is not because you're comparing her to Mugabe? Right. 8-)
s96024, you have no idea what my view on Mugabe is, however the fact that you mention him shows how ridiculous your arguments are. You do realise that it is possible to feel sympathetic for Amy but not for Mugabe? 8-)
Again I didn't say drug addicts were the downfall of the country, I was referring to your nicey nicey attitude to everyone and everything.
Far better my so-called 'nicey nicey' attitude than your incredibly malicious and harsh attitude in which you seem to think that a musician with a drug addiction is comparable to a dictator stabbing his toe.
As I said before, if you think that my attitude is leading to the downfall of the UK, you need to do some research, because if anyone's attitude is to blame then you should look to your own malicious and uncaring attittude.
One more thing: I don't have a nicey nicey attitude to everyone (bigots and racists, for instance) however you have not demonstrated that there are exceptions to your own malicious attitude.
Finally I have never said she was the devil or anything of the sort. I just think she is a terrible role model.
I don't care what kind of role model she is, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I like Keira too and I agree with Alex everyone is deserving of sympathy. However, I do have a question, why is this thread under the QOS topic?
Absolutely 100% agree hence the move of this topic to OT ...
As for the news itself, I feel for her, her friends and her family.
There are some seriously misguided perceptions of addiction and addicts in this thread. To those members, let's sincerely hope that you are never impacted by this most insidious of diseases.
Addicts have little choice. Addiction is a disease and whether that is to crack, nicotine, alcohol or any other powerful mind and physiology-altering drug, it results in serious implacations to the addict and those around them. They should have our sympathy.
Can you really compare people who choose to take drugs to get the pleasurable effects to actual diseases. Millions of people die due to real disease's every year, from no fault of their own. Addiction is not a disease it's a weakness of the mind. Your sympathies should be directed at the millions who have not brought on these "disease's" themselves and suffer and die everyday. Not a stupid women who sticks needles in herself to get a high.
oh please s96024, would you please be so kind to get yourself a little bit more educated about drug addiction and a little bit less-prejudiced?
We have gotten your point and I have the feeling, that this is getting pointless as you are defending your narrow-focussed point until the last bullet, no matter, what others are trying to contribute.
Noone here is denying the fact, that there is very much trouble all over the world and noone puts Amy Winehouse over starving and suffering people.
But showing a quantum of concern to those, who are in trouble is something GOOD and not the opposite as you have been saying before.
And Amy, no matter how rich and famous she is, and no matter, who's fault it has been is in serious trouble and is far off from using drugs for "her own pleasure".
And as you are correctly condemning organized crime in regards of drugs, I see you defending my position, when the topic comes up to fake watches again.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Can you really compare people who choose to take drugs to get the pleasurable effects to actual diseases. Millions of people die due to real disease's every year, from no fault of their own. Addiction is not a disease it's a weakness of the mind. Your sympathies should be directed at the millions who have not brought on these "disease's" themselves and suffer and die everyday. Not a stupid women who sticks needles in herself to get a high.
My mother died of a horrific neurological disease (called ALS or Lou Gehrig's Disease in America; Motor Neuron Disease in the UK), and my sister's life was cut short from drug and alcohol problems from earlier in her life. Please tell me which one I should grieve for more.
Then again, grieving for someone personally known to you isn't the same as taking an interest in someone famous as I'm sure you know, it can lead to the 'Princess Diana' effect.
Generally I can see the point that Amy's condition is relatively self-inflicted compared to that of others in the world – which is not the same as taking an aggressively unsympathetic response.
I've got to say I've found this thread and the heat it is generating to be somewhat baffling.
Can you really compare people who choose to take drugs to get the pleasurable effects to actual diseases. Millions of people die due to real disease's every year, from no fault of their own. Addiction is not a disease it's a weakness of the mind. Your sympathies should be directed at the millions who have not brought on these "disease's" themselves and suffer and die everyday. Not a stupid women who sticks needles in herself to get a high.
Real disease? Actual disease?
A disease is any disorder of body functions, systems, or organs. It can be self-inflicted, traumatic, pathogen-borne, congenital etc etc
Now onto your question, I am not comparing anyone to anyone. Morbidity and mortality have a myriad causes. My training taught me to help people if they are ill.
Can you really compare people who choose to take drugs to get the pleasurable effects to actual diseases. Millions of people die due to real disease's every year, from no fault of their own. Addiction is not a disease it's a weakness of the mind. Your sympathies should be directed at the millions who have not brought on these "disease's" themselves and suffer and die everyday. Not a stupid women who sticks needles in herself to get a high.
My mother died of a horrific neurological disease (called ALS or Lou Gehrig's Disease in America; Motor Neuron Disease in the UK), and my sister's life was cut short from drug and alcohol problems from earlier in her life. Please tell me which one I should grieve for more.
I'm sorry to hear that. My argument is nothing to do with how people should grieve for a loss of a loved one. If you lose someone close to you, however they die you will experience grief. But who would you feel more sympathetic towards in their suffering if you didn't know the people. It's debateable whether an addiction is a disease in the truest sense of the word. An addiction, whether it be drugs, alcohol, food e.t.c. is something that has been entered into 9/10 by choice and is something that people can and have recovered from. I would like to know if you have as much sympathy towards an obese person as you do a drug addict.
I would like to know if you have as much sympathy towards an obese person as you do a drug addict.
Yes, in fact, I do. One of my closest friends is obese and he was even diagnosed as diabetic because of it. I never once thought, "Well, that's your tough luck, fatty. Eat a salad." I realize that, in a lot of ways, the guy can't help it: no matter how well he eats he's genetically predisposed to be a big man.
I appreciate the sympathy you and NP expressed, but my larger point was not to elicit sympathy or to discuss grieving. It's to say that suffering is suffering: whether someone has a lurking time bomb in her genetic makeup (as my mother did) or has damaged her liver and heart through drug and alcohol abuse (as my sister did), the suffering of that person will--or at least should--cause others to feel empathy and pity. You usually don't spend your time considering the source of the illness and deciding the degree of compassion you should feel.
Frankly, I feel sorry for Amy Winehouse--and I also feel for Britney Spears and Lindsey Lohan. No doubt they caused 90% of their own troubles, but they are young people with something to give and it's no fun watching them spin out of control. I am also appalled by the leering, giggling media and blogosphere, which are pointing at these women, holding them up to ridicule, and acting like a crowd of pedestrians crying "Jump!" to a desperate man on a balcony. Does anybody give a rip for the pain the families of these women are going through? Does anyone seriously enjoy watching someone self-destruct? They need compassion and understanding, not ridicule and further abuse. What was it Shakespeare wrote?
"The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes."
What something has been entered into by choice, whether diabetes through obesity, drug or alcohol addiction, or HIV/AIDS through unprotected sex, is neither here nor there. It's happened, and it's too late to argue about the rights and wrongs of how they got there. Whatever lead them there, whatever the cause, is irrelevant. To write them off, suggesting that somehow they're unsalvageable because they brought it upon themselves, is not only cold and cruel, but does not offer any shred of salvation or hope for those who've found themselves in these positions through some form of self abuse.
Amy Winhouse is a hugely talented individual. She's sick, she's got an addiction and, ultimately, she's only there through her own choice. However, all the help in the world is at her door and I sincerely hope she recognises that and gets herself out of it. If not, then, well, it's a complete tragedy and if anything positive should come of it, it should be the alarming advert of how drug abuse can destroy talent, intelligence and hope.
This is explains my point perfectly. I am very sympathetic to people I feel deserve it. In the same way I would tip when it is deserved. Obviously this is down to personal opinion on who deserves sympathy or tipping. But i'm willing to bet some people commenting here would tip a waitress if they served a mug of their own urine.
I know it's another one of my classy to the extreme analogys. So you don't have to tell me.
Tarantino is a genius, credit where credit is due. I'm not just saying that because it's the accepted opinion.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
But i'm willing to bet some people commenting here would tip a waitress if they served a mug of their own urine.
8-)
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Well, s90' 's persuaded me, I'll have my two dollars back... )
Anyhow, it can't be denied that Amy's sales have gone thru the roof since her difficulties have been aired, before she was just another singer like Adele, now she's a pheno, phenomon very famous person ,just as Pete Docherty wouldn't have a career without his druggie antics. Having her pop up to serenade Mandela doesn't suggest she's suffering too much and her lung capacity seems alright too...
Comments
And the fact that you would deduce that I would have sympathy for Mugabe, if he stabbed his toe, based on my sympathy for Amy is not because you're comparing her to Mugabe? Right. 8-)
s96024, you have no idea what my view on Mugabe is, however the fact that you mention him shows how ridiculous your arguments are. You do realise that it is possible to feel sympathetic for Amy but not for Mugabe? 8-)
Far better my so-called 'nicey nicey' attitude than your incredibly malicious and harsh attitude in which you seem to think that a musician with a drug addiction is comparable to a dictator stabbing his toe.
As I said before, if you think that my attitude is leading to the downfall of the UK, you need to do some research, because if anyone's attitude is to blame then you should look to your own malicious and uncaring attittude.
One more thing: I don't have a nicey nicey attitude to everyone (bigots and racists, for instance) however you have not demonstrated that there are exceptions to your own malicious attitude.
I don't care what kind of role model she is, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
"They're telling you to vote Tsangirai
I say no, no, no!"
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Raise the recording volume a 30 % !
Absolutely 100% agree hence the move of this topic to OT ...
As for the news itself, I feel for her, her friends and her family.
There are some seriously misguided perceptions of addiction and addicts in this thread. To those members, let's sincerely hope that you are never impacted by this most insidious of diseases.
Addicts have little choice. Addiction is a disease and whether that is to crack, nicotine, alcohol or any other powerful mind and physiology-altering drug, it results in serious implacations to the addict and those around them. They should have our sympathy.
We have gotten your point and I have the feeling, that this is getting pointless as you are defending your narrow-focussed point until the last bullet, no matter, what others are trying to contribute.
Noone here is denying the fact, that there is very much trouble all over the world and noone puts Amy Winehouse over starving and suffering people.
But showing a quantum of concern to those, who are in trouble is something GOOD and not the opposite as you have been saying before.
And Amy, no matter how rich and famous she is, and no matter, who's fault it has been is in serious trouble and is far off from using drugs for "her own pleasure".
And as you are correctly condemning organized crime in regards of drugs, I see you defending my position, when the topic comes up to fake watches again.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
My mother died of a horrific neurological disease (called ALS or Lou Gehrig's Disease in America; Motor Neuron Disease in the UK), and my sister's life was cut short from drug and alcohol problems from earlier in her life. Please tell me which one I should grieve for more.
Then again, grieving for someone personally known to you isn't the same as taking an interest in someone famous as I'm sure you know, it can lead to the 'Princess Diana' effect.
Generally I can see the point that Amy's condition is relatively self-inflicted compared to that of others in the world – which is not the same as taking an aggressively unsympathetic response.
I've got to say I've found this thread and the heat it is generating to be somewhat baffling.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Real disease? Actual disease?
A disease is any disorder of body functions, systems, or organs. It can be self-inflicted, traumatic, pathogen-borne, congenital etc etc
Now onto your question, I am not comparing anyone to anyone. Morbidity and mortality have a myriad causes. My training taught me to help people if they are ill.
I'm sorry to hear that. My argument is nothing to do with how people should grieve for a loss of a loved one. If you lose someone close to you, however they die you will experience grief. But who would you feel more sympathetic towards in their suffering if you didn't know the people. It's debateable whether an addiction is a disease in the truest sense of the word. An addiction, whether it be drugs, alcohol, food e.t.c. is something that has been entered into 9/10 by choice and is something that people can and have recovered from. I would like to know if you have as much sympathy towards an obese person as you do a drug addict.
Yes, in fact, I do. One of my closest friends is obese and he was even diagnosed as diabetic because of it. I never once thought, "Well, that's your tough luck, fatty. Eat a salad." I realize that, in a lot of ways, the guy can't help it: no matter how well he eats he's genetically predisposed to be a big man.
I appreciate the sympathy you and NP expressed, but my larger point was not to elicit sympathy or to discuss grieving. It's to say that suffering is suffering: whether someone has a lurking time bomb in her genetic makeup (as my mother did) or has damaged her liver and heart through drug and alcohol abuse (as my sister did), the suffering of that person will--or at least should--cause others to feel empathy and pity. You usually don't spend your time considering the source of the illness and deciding the degree of compassion you should feel.
Frankly, I feel sorry for Amy Winehouse--and I also feel for Britney Spears and Lindsey Lohan. No doubt they caused 90% of their own troubles, but they are young people with something to give and it's no fun watching them spin out of control. I am also appalled by the leering, giggling media and blogosphere, which are pointing at these women, holding them up to ridicule, and acting like a crowd of pedestrians crying "Jump!" to a desperate man on a balcony. Does anybody give a rip for the pain the families of these women are going through? Does anyone seriously enjoy watching someone self-destruct? They need compassion and understanding, not ridicule and further abuse. What was it Shakespeare wrote?
"The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes."
I can't say fairer than that.
What something has been entered into by choice, whether diabetes through obesity, drug or alcohol addiction, or HIV/AIDS through unprotected sex, is neither here nor there. It's happened, and it's too late to argue about the rights and wrongs of how they got there. Whatever lead them there, whatever the cause, is irrelevant. To write them off, suggesting that somehow they're unsalvageable because they brought it upon themselves, is not only cold and cruel, but does not offer any shred of salvation or hope for those who've found themselves in these positions through some form of self abuse.
Amy Winhouse is a hugely talented individual. She's sick, she's got an addiction and, ultimately, she's only there through her own choice. However, all the help in the world is at her door and I sincerely hope she recognises that and gets herself out of it. If not, then, well, it's a complete tragedy and if anything positive should come of it, it should be the alarming advert of how drug abuse can destroy talent, intelligence and hope.
It occurred to me what this discussion reminded me of:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XgBGRfSvfxY&feature=related
S90' is Mr Pink, natch!
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I know it's another one of my classy to the extreme analogys. So you don't have to tell me.
Tarantino is a genius, credit where credit is due. I'm not just saying that because it's the accepted opinion.
8-)
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Well that would really depend on whether I'd ordered it or not.
Anyhow, it can't be denied that Amy's sales have gone thru the roof since her difficulties have been aired, before she was just another singer like Adele, now she's a pheno, phenomon
Roger Moore 1927-2017