If Dalton had been in GE...
stjimmy456
Manchester, EnglandPosts: 75MI6 Agent
I just read the quote "GoldenEye had been written with Dalton in mind." And it got me wondering what route the series would have gone down if it had actually come to pass.
Personally I think it would have been the point with the most potential for the Bond movies to come to an end (with the exception of OHMSS maybe
).
Even though I liked Dalton's two installments, I really think the 'modernization' of the series with GoldenEye would have capsized with Dalton in the lead role.
Pierce Brosnan doesn't get enough praise for what he did for the James Bond series -- I really think he might have saved it from going into a rutt that it might not have come out of. Kudos to Dalton too for stepping down even though he was contracted to stay on longer. What would have happened if there were no legal issues in the early nineties ? If GoldenEye had been made in 1991 or 1994 as it was initially anticipated !
I know there are a lot of 'what ifs' when it comes to discussing Bond, but I think this is one of the most interesting cases.
Personally I think it would have been the point with the most potential for the Bond movies to come to an end (with the exception of OHMSS maybe
).Even though I liked Dalton's two installments, I really think the 'modernization' of the series with GoldenEye would have capsized with Dalton in the lead role.
Pierce Brosnan doesn't get enough praise for what he did for the James Bond series -- I really think he might have saved it from going into a rutt that it might not have come out of. Kudos to Dalton too for stepping down even though he was contracted to stay on longer. What would have happened if there were no legal issues in the early nineties ? If GoldenEye had been made in 1991 or 1994 as it was initially anticipated !
I know there are a lot of 'what ifs' when it comes to discussing Bond, but I think this is one of the most interesting cases.
Comments
And you are aware Brosnan saved the series? {:)
Rather than turn this into a JFF-style (where is he? ?:)) anti-Dalton rant, I will just say that Dalton was IMO a major reason why TLD and LTK are among my all-time least favourite Bond films. His lack of humour, suaveness and his general dourness are what I absolutely do not want for GE.
I regard Brosnan as the second best Bond, and the best since Connery. The idea of replacing him in GE (except perhaps by a 60's Connery) is, for me, simply unthinkable.
http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/movies/bond17.php3?t=&s=&id=01930
But I would have loved seeing Dalton given more films, his performance struck a chord with this "adult". And I think he was unfairly maligned. (sounds familiar)
Whether other American audiences would have agreed is problematic.
GoldenEye is a decent enough entry - and not a bad start for Brosnan, more plaudits for Campbell, IMO, though.
I also think Dalton would have suited this movie better too, it does play to his strengths better than Brosnan's. I have no 'beef' with Brozza though - he did a sterling job with scripts he was given.
I too, would have liked Dalton to have been given more Bond films.
I really think Dalton's lack of acceptance in America has more to do with bad writing, and directing and poor creative decisions than any lack of charisma on his part. TLD was written for Roger Moore and the "light melodrama" Bond had really run its course by the mid-1980s. LTK maybe went a little too far in the other direction too quickly and the combination of Richard Maibaum and John Glen just weren't able to craft a film that could compete with Batman, Indiana Jones and the other competition back in 1989.
Dalton really needed an injection of fresh talent behind the camera; unfortunately, he never got it.
Full agreement.I think Timothy Dalton was outstanding as 007, and had he starred in GoldenEye it would've been a fine motion picture.
It's surprising. I really couldn't picture Pierce in CR, or Sean Connery in OHMSS, but I could picture Dalton in GE. I still think Brosnan's job would have been better, but I could easily consider a Dalton Bond being in that movie.
I think Dalton would have made a great Bond villain, maybe a good Trevelyan if the Bond casting had gone a different route :007).
Stimmy's original post contains a statement which must be addressed. Stimmy suggests that Dalton in GE could have meant the end of the series.
I've said it before...I will say it again. Bond is a series that will NEVER end.
I'll repeat it for the cheap seats: NEVER!
Without any doubt, question or deliberation, as long as there is life on Planet Earth and movies are being made...there will be Bond movies.
As Cubby said once, when asked how long Bond will last:"Until doomsday." Agreed 100%! And then some!
James Bond will outlast every single member of this site. Why? Because,as long as governments exist, there will ALWAYS be a place for espionage and James Bond is, and will always be, the face of cloak and dagger.
And besides, good quality enetertainment will never go out of style.
So, with all due respect, Stimmy, you should perish all thoughts on the possibility of 007's demise. It ain't gonna happen. And the sooner we all come to the realization that this series is a completely unique phenomenon in the history of movies, the more we will understand that comparing Bond to finite series such as Star Wars (or Indy or Bourne or Potter)is apples and orages time.
My proof? 22 films and no end in sight, with a new generation every few years that makes Bond their own.
It always makes me laugh at how the egg-heads and experts over the years have always been speculating as to how close Bond was to extinction in 1969 or 1976 or 1991 or whatever.
Cubby understood better than anybody ever has the potential of James Bond. Look at every interview Cubby gave: there is absolutely no question he believed Bond was forever.
Kudos to Pierce for GE but to suggest that Pierce single-handedly saved the series is a bit of a stretch.
"Why can't you be a good boy and die?"
"You first. You...second. UP!!!"
*Along with AVTAK and DAD.
I agree AVTAK and LTK had poor screenplays but TLD? I loved that film. And GE wasn't that bad.
There is certainly a subjective element to script evaluation, and GoldenEye's script is not terrible, it was just average. It scores a point for the references to Bond's parents death (as recounted by Fleming in the You Only Live Twice novel), and I also think Alec Trevelyan has some Drax-esque qualities that are also a pleasant surprise (a man with a disfigured face and a grudge against England, who plans to exact his revenge by firing a nuclear weapon on London). Also, the script has generally good dialouge,but its plot development is where things really go down hill.
The plot evolution is illogical and inconsistent, usually an indication of significant re-writes and/or shoddy writing. As a result, the caper loses some of its intrigue, and I believe you and I discussed these points in another thread so I won't re-state them. But what happens with the realitively simple plot and its many holes is that they are filled by a lot of mind-numbing machine gun action that, for me at least, is not nearly as entertaining as the action scenes that really show off 007's physical prowess and cunning (though we do get this with the end fight against 006). Also, not taking the time to really develop a rivalry between 006 and 007 that could have raised the dramatic stakes was a real weakness to the script in my estimation.
Regarding The Living Daylights and Licence To Kill, I could not disagree more with you assessment. The first ten or so minutes of The Living Daylights is one of the most faithful adaptations of a Fleming writing we have ever seen on screen. The plot does not attempt to be the stereotypical crazy-madman-bent-on-world-domination that is recycled-in-nearly-ever other Bond film; it is a low key thriller about a very realistic cold war arms deal that is developed slowly and with suspense. The characters introduced in the first 15 minutes stay within their characterizations, which makes them pretty consistent with how I read the short story. The action is not overused, and emphasizes Bond's capabilities as a trained killer, not a superman.
Licence To Kill's script also skillfully draws from Fleming source material and develops into one of the cannon's most original stories. We get a scene referencing Bond's marriage that seems built around Dalton's strengths as an actor, in addition to Bond attempting to kill Sanchez by blowing out a window and sniping him, something he talks about in the Casino Royale novel (quite a find for a great scene!). In addition, we get a great adaptation of the Krest character from The Hildebrand Rarity, and probably the most faithful adaptation of the Live and Let Die novel we will ever see on screen; in fact, it provides the impetus for the whole movie. This kind of Fleming use is a masterstroke in my view, and has also been used as a template for the current direction of the Bond films. I, personally, believe this attention to detail and respect for source material are the marks of great Bond scripts, and these movies have them in spades.
I agree 100% with Fitsochris, i was about to write this but you beat me to it. {[]
037
Having said that, I liked Dalton, and LTK is one of my favorite Bonds, so I think he would have been fine in GE. The one thing I always thought Dalton lacked was believability with the ladies, with the exception of Carey Lowell he never seemed to have a connection with the women in the film. His connection with Lowell may be more a credit to her than him.
Comments like 'the public never took to Dalton (especially in America)' should be greeted with the response 'so what? He's a British creation, so who cares what Americans think?'
However, because America is a massive part of the world's cinema consumer base (and most of the production team at EON are American) we have to tolerate or accept this input.
At least an American actor hasn't played Bond yet. That will mark a sad day in the franchise's history.
I agree. I would go so far as to say that the first 70 minutes of the film, with the exception of the car-chase, are arguably the best sequence in the series.
Having said that, I do not think GE needs a change of Bond. Rather, I prefer to think of a scenario in which Dalton would have had his own 4 movies starting with AVTAK and ending with the Property of a Lady in 1991.
1985: FAVTAK (sobered up and with many changes to plot)
1987: TLD (with slight modifications but more or less as is)
1989: LTK (as is)
1991: TPOAL (There are a few good scenarios posted in this site.)
I don't see it being a terrible thing if an American were to play James Bond.
For one thing, if a great American actor was competing against lackluster British actors, wouldn't you want the best actor to play him?
Second, consider Batman, an American creation, who is currently played by a Christian Bale, a Welshman. Bale is widely considered to be the best Batman to date. I don't see any Americans complaining because it isn't an American like, well, George Clooney, in the role.
I agree. One of the problems with Brosnan, particularly in GE is that Bond is played in Brozzers characteristic 'Transatlantic' style. I get very little sense of 'Britishness' from his early performences. That said I see no problem with an American actor as long as Bond is convincingly played as British. This is not being a 'little Englander' about this as it's a vital component of Bonds geopolitical narrative that he is not 'Jimmy Bond' of the CIA.I for one would much prefer the right American actor to the wrong British one. One of the things I like about Craig is that his Bond is clearly British.
However I think Dalton would have been superb in GE.I feel that Brosnan didn't 'nail it' in character terms until TWINE. I also believe that the best of Brosnan's performences owed a lot to Dalton, and that one of his stregths & weaknesses was that at his best he was a composite Bond ( Dalton's Darkness, Connery's swagger and Moore's raised eyebrow) and that he either was never given the opportunity, or never able to find his own authentic voice in the character. This is a shame, as with better material, and more sympathetic support & direction I think he could have been very good
Your thoughts on the Dalton films are dead-on. I completely agree!
As do I...:)
The Cold War pts would have made more sense with Dalton I must say.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I'm not saying people were chomping at the bit to see Dalton movies, but he was hardly the box office poison of lore either.
Me to!