Okay...we'll agree to disagree...but...what IS Bond then, if not a cold-blooded killer ? He kills people that get in his way, that stop him doing what needs to be done.
In FYEO Bond kills Locque when he has no NEED to. He just kicks his car over the cliff, he could have got him out, but he kills him in revenge for Ferrara. Isn't that murder ?
Fleming's novel Goldfinger describes this well:
"It was part of his profession to kill people. He never liked doing it and when he had to kill he did it as well as he knew how and forgot about it. As a secret agent who held the rare double-O prefix - the licence to kill in the secret service - it was his duty to be as cool about death as a surgeon. If it happened, it happened."
In The Living Daylights, he could've killed the KGB sniper, but instead chose only to injure her.
Yes, Bond does kill for revenge. Quite frankly, if I had the means at my disposal to kill for revenge, I probably would too. I'd say that Bond is not a murderer because he is very selective about his targets, and will only kill if he has to, or if his duty demands it. He takes no pride or joy in killing.
"Watch the birdie, you bastard!"
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,917Chief of Staff
Which backs up my point beautifully - a cold blooded killer, as Fleming's own words tell us. Thanks for finding the quote.
From Ian Fleming, The Spy Who Loved Me, Chapter 13
"... He said, 'Sorry, Viv. I made rather a hash of that round.
I thought he had too. I said, 'Why didn't you just shoot them down? They were sitting ducks with those sets in their hands.'
He said curtly, 'Never been able to in cold blood.'"
He is a spy whose job it is to kill when it is required of him. That, to me, does not define a murderer, or a cold-blooded killer, but a man simply doing his job for his country.
I also loved how the conversation at the end with Camille plays out for Bond when he kills the Colonel.
This is a revenge kill for Bond but he keeps his cool by just acknowledging Mathis with: "I understand we had a mutual friend!" and then ONE shot. As he told Camille: "That's all you'll need."
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,917Chief of Staff
He is a spy whose job it is to kill when it is required of him. That, to me, does not define a murderer, or a cold-blooded killer, but a man simply doing his job for his country.
As I said...agree to disagree.
And didn't Vivienne Michel write The Spy Who Loved Me ? )
Doesn't Bond kill Prof. Dent in cold-blood in Dr. No ? Shooting someone in the back seems pretty cold-blooded to me.
And what is your definition of a murderer DEFIANT 74205 ? Not looking for an argument as such...just curious. Isn't it, anybody that kills anybody else is a murderer ? Isn't that the definition in law ?
Doesn't Bond kill Prof. Dent in cold-blood in Dr. No ? Shooting someone in the back seems pretty cold-blooded to me.
If I recall correctly, Professor Dent had emptied his Smith & Wesson at what he thought was Bond. That was provocation. After that, Dent was attempting to retrieve his gun, and was in fact facing Bond when Bond fired the first of his three shots at Dent.
And what is your definition of a murderer DEFIANT 74205 ? Not looking for an argument as such...just curious. Isn't it, anybody that kills anybody else is a murderer ? Isn't that the definition in law ?
"Murder is the unlawful killing, by any person of sound memory and discretion, of any person under the King's peace, with malice aforethought either express or implied by law.
"This malice aforethought which distinguishes murder from other species of homicide is not limited to particular illwill against the person slain, but means that the fact has been attended with such circumstances as are the ordinary symptoms of a wicked, depraved and malignant spirit; a heart regardless of social duty and deliberately bent upon mischief."
That Bond kills and has killed others is not in doubt. However, does he kill because he has the "symptons of a wicked, depraved and malignant spirit" or a heart "regardless of social duty and deliberately bent upon mischief"? Bond kills because he has to, not because he gets any joy from killing, or that he has to urge to kill someone to satisfy his wicked and malignant spirit. Do all soldiers who have killed others in battle become murderers? Or are they just soldiers simply doing their jobs, of which death is a regrettable but inevitable part?
For the perfect definition of a cold-blooded killer or a murderer, look no further than Donovan (Donald) Grant!
"Watch the birdie, you bastard!"
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,917Chief of Staff
Doesn't Bond kill Prof. Dent in cold-blood in Dr. No ? Shooting someone in the back seems pretty cold-blooded to me.
If I recall correctly, Professor Dent had emptied his Smith & Wesson at what he thought was Bond. That was provocation. After that, Dent was attempting to retrieve his gun, and was in fact facing Bond when Bond fired the first of his three shots at Dent.
But Bond knew full well that Dent had an empty gun "That's a Smith & Wesson, and you've had you're six". He could have arrested him, taken him for questioning...Bond is certainly capable of that...but no...he kills him...deliberately. Isn't that the action of a cold-blooded killer ?
That Bond kills and has killed others is not in doubt. However, does he kill because he has the "symptons of a wicked, depraved and malignant spirit" or a heart "regardless of social duty and deliberately bent upon mischief"? Bond kills because he has to, not because he gets any joy from killing, or that he has to urge to kill someone to satisfy his wicked and malignant spirit. Do all soldiers who have killed others in battle become murderers? Or are they just soldiers simply doing their jobs, of which death is a regrettable but inevitable part?
For the perfect definition of a cold-blooded killer or a murderer, look no further than Donovan (Donald) Grant!
All good points...as for soldiers ? Well, I'll steer clear of that one thanks
And you say "Bond kills because he has to" - Why ? Why does he HAVE to ? He's clever enough to walk away if he doesn't like it, isn't he ?
Doesn't society want to think of all murderers as 'social misfits' though ? Not really someone capable of rational thought. I'm not convinced that's true.
The fight between Bond and Mr. Slate in Port Au Prince, and the entire opera scene, with the classical music playing as Bond and Greene meet each other face to face, the look on Greenes face was priceless.
But Bond knew full well that Dent had an empty gun "That's a Smith & Wesson, and you've had you're six". He could have arrested him, taken him for questioning...Bond is certainly capable of that...but no...he kills him...deliberately. Isn't that the action of a cold-blooded killer ?
You have a point there ... perhaps Bond felt that he couldn't get anything out of Dent, because all of Dr No's workers seem to be rather afraid of him. Remember that photographer? Quarrel twisted her arm to breaking point, but she wouldn't speak. Nor did Bond's chauffer from the airport, who committed suicide instead of talking to Bond.
All good points...as for soldiers ? Well, I'll steer clear of that one thanks
And you say "Bond kills because he has to" - Why ? Why does he HAVE to ? He's clever enough to walk away if he doesn't like it, isn't he ?
I think the comparison with a soldier is very valid. Both are doing a job for their country, a job that they have been ordered to do. Similarly, Bond has to kill because it is part of the mission that he has been ordered to do. He could walk away if he wanted, but I think that his loyalty to Queen and Country would dictate that he completes his mission. Bond has made a judgment call not to kill before - the KGB sniper in The Living Daylights is one example. I believe that if Bond feels that his mission will not be hindered in any way by not killing someone, he would choose not to do it.
Doesn't society want to think of all murderers as 'social misfits' though ? Not really someone capable of rational thought. I'm not convinced that's true.
Good point. Some murderers are quite respected in society, before they commit their crime. However, the motive behind the killing is probably what will set a murderer apart from someone who is just doing his job. Like soldiers, Bond would kill if he has been ordered to, or if his life or the lives of people he has sworn to protect become endangered.
"Watch the birdie, you bastard!"
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,917Chief of Staff
But Bond knew full well that Dent had an empty gun "That's a Smith & Wesson, and you've had you're six". He could have arrested him, taken him for questioning...Bond is certainly capable of that...but no...he kills him...deliberately. Isn't that the action of a cold-blooded killer ?
You have a point there ... perhaps Bond felt that he couldn't get anything out of Dent, because all of Dr No's workers seem to be rather afraid of him. Remember that photographer? Quarrel twisted her arm to breaking point, but she wouldn't speak. Nor did Bond's chauffer from the airport, who committed suicide instead of talking to Bond.
A good point well made.
AJB'sBarry Nelson gives us a great quote from TSWLM on another thread....if he doesn't mind I'll reprint it here...
I have said before, I really would like the basic story, Bond rescuing a damsel in distress, of TSWLM told. My all time favorite passage from the Bond books is in this novel. If you don't mind I will share it.
"In the higher ranks of these forces, among the toughest of the professionals, there's a deadly quality of the persons involved which is common to both-to both friends and enemies" The captain's closed fist came softly down on the wooden table top for emphasis and his inward looking eyes burned with a dedicated private anger. "The top gangsters, the top F.B.I. operatives, the top spies and the top counter-spies are coldhearted, coldblooded, ruthless, tough killers, Miss Michel. Yes, even the friends, as opposed the enemies. They have to be. They wouldn't survive if they weren't. Do you get me?...So the message I want to leave you with, my dear-and I've talked to Washington and I've learned something about Commander Bond's outstanding record in his particular line of business-is this. Keep away from all these men. They are not for you, whether they're called James Bond or Sluggsy Morant. Both these men, and others like them, belong to a private jungle into which you've stayed for a few hours and from which you have escaped. So don't go and get sweet dreams about the one or nightmares from the other. They're just different people from the likes of you-a different species."
The Spy Who Loved Me (Chapter 15) Ian Fleming
Pardon my indulgence, but I love that passage because Fleming, through the Police Captain's description, really describes Bond's personna, coldhearted, coldblooded, ruthless, tough killer. I love it.
I guess we could get hung up on the difference (if any) between a 'killer' and a 'murderer' - it's all fine lines.
This reminds me of and old thread of mine: You Disappoint Me Dr No... Such as when Bond knifes the bloke in the mangrove swamp even though he's passed them already...
Comments
when you watched some scenes your on the edge of your seat.
i also love that scene when he meets m and that chick was covered in oil , i was goldfinger she was in the same pose and every thing.
and when he knocks those guys out in the lift.
rocked
Fleming's novel Goldfinger describes this well:
"It was part of his profession to kill people. He never liked doing it and when he had to kill he did it as well as he knew how and forgot about it. As a secret agent who held the rare double-O prefix - the licence to kill in the secret service - it was his duty to be as cool about death as a surgeon. If it happened, it happened."
In The Living Daylights, he could've killed the KGB sniper, but instead chose only to injure her.
Yes, Bond does kill for revenge. Quite frankly, if I had the means at my disposal to kill for revenge, I probably would too. I'd say that Bond is not a murderer because he is very selective about his targets, and will only kill if he has to, or if his duty demands it. He takes no pride or joy in killing.
Which backs up my point beautifully - a cold blooded killer, as Fleming's own words tell us. Thanks for finding the quote.
From Ian Fleming, The Spy Who Loved Me, Chapter 13
"... He said, 'Sorry, Viv. I made rather a hash of that round.
I thought he had too. I said, 'Why didn't you just shoot them down? They were sitting ducks with those sets in their hands.'
He said curtly, 'Never been able to in cold blood.'"
He is a spy whose job it is to kill when it is required of him. That, to me, does not define a murderer, or a cold-blooded killer, but a man simply doing his job for his country.
This is a revenge kill for Bond but he keeps his cool by just acknowledging Mathis with: "I understand we had a mutual friend!" and then ONE shot. As he told Camille: "That's all you'll need."
As I said...agree to disagree.
And didn't Vivienne Michel write The Spy Who Loved Me ?
Doesn't Bond kill Prof. Dent in cold-blood in Dr. No ? Shooting someone in the back seems pretty cold-blooded to me.
And what is your definition of a murderer DEFIANT 74205 ? Not looking for an argument as such...just curious. Isn't it, anybody that kills anybody else is a murderer ? Isn't that the definition in law ?
Fair enough by me!
If I recall correctly, Professor Dent had emptied his Smith & Wesson at what he thought was Bond. That was provocation. After that, Dent was attempting to retrieve his gun, and was in fact facing Bond when Bond fired the first of his three shots at Dent.
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/M/Murder.aspx
That Bond kills and has killed others is not in doubt. However, does he kill because he has the "symptons of a wicked, depraved and malignant spirit" or a heart "regardless of social duty and deliberately bent upon mischief"? Bond kills because he has to, not because he gets any joy from killing, or that he has to urge to kill someone to satisfy his wicked and malignant spirit. Do all soldiers who have killed others in battle become murderers? Or are they just soldiers simply doing their jobs, of which death is a regrettable but inevitable part?
For the perfect definition of a cold-blooded killer or a murderer, look no further than Donovan (Donald) Grant!
Good. I'm glad you're taking this the right way.
But Bond knew full well that Dent had an empty gun "That's a Smith & Wesson, and you've had you're six". He could have arrested him, taken him for questioning...Bond is certainly capable of that...but no...he kills him...deliberately. Isn't that the action of a cold-blooded killer ?
All good points...as for soldiers ? Well, I'll steer clear of that one thanks
And you say "Bond kills because he has to" - Why ? Why does he HAVE to ? He's clever enough to walk away if he doesn't like it, isn't he ?
Doesn't society want to think of all murderers as 'social misfits' though ? Not really someone capable of rational thought. I'm not convinced that's true.
You have a point there ... perhaps Bond felt that he couldn't get anything out of Dent, because all of Dr No's workers seem to be rather afraid of him. Remember that photographer? Quarrel twisted her arm to breaking point, but she wouldn't speak. Nor did Bond's chauffer from the airport, who committed suicide instead of talking to Bond.
I think the comparison with a soldier is very valid. Both are doing a job for their country, a job that they have been ordered to do. Similarly, Bond has to kill because it is part of the mission that he has been ordered to do. He could walk away if he wanted, but I think that his loyalty to Queen and Country would dictate that he completes his mission. Bond has made a judgment call not to kill before - the KGB sniper in The Living Daylights is one example. I believe that if Bond feels that his mission will not be hindered in any way by not killing someone, he would choose not to do it.
Good point. Some murderers are quite respected in society, before they commit their crime. However, the motive behind the killing is probably what will set a murderer apart from someone who is just doing his job. Like soldiers, Bond would kill if he has been ordered to, or if his life or the lives of people he has sworn to protect become endangered.
A good point well made.
AJB's Barry Nelson gives us a great quote from TSWLM on another thread....if he doesn't mind I'll reprint it here...
I guess we could get hung up on the difference (if any) between a 'killer' and a 'murderer' - it's all fine lines.
Roger Moore 1927-2017