A question about QoS and the tell

Jonny1980Jonny1980 Posts: 3MI6 Agent
Firstly I apologise if this is discussed elsewhere. I often find myself reading these forums, but have never posted before.

I thought QoS was fantastic, saw the BFI screening last Wednesday, and went back to see it on Friday at Leicester square again.

In my opinion the film is different, but in a good way and leaves you wanting more. Like DC said in an interview he would welcome the return of Moneypenny and Q, but we have to earn them. I think this could apply to many elements of the films that we love so much. I am confident that by the curtain call after Bond 23, a firm foundation will have been built for many of these elements to make a welcome return.

I do have a question that I cannot answer though, hence I make this post.

In QoS, we find out that Mathis was actually not rogue, and hadn’t told Le Chiffre that Bond new his ‘tell’.

So I went back to Casino Royale to try and get my head around this. Bond confided in both Vesper and Mathis that he new Le Chiffre’s tell. Le Chiffre then uses it to double bluff Bond causing him to bet all in against a strong hand.

At the dinner seen, Bond realises that Mathis talked. Yet we find out now he was innocent and couldn’t have done.

Therefore it must have been Vesper.

However, it is my understanding that Vesper was innocent of all involvement, and was merely a civil servant up until the kidnapping scene, where she has her life spared and her Boyfriend’s life if she agrees to get the money for Quantum.

This means she wasn’t working with Le Chiffre at the time of the Poker game, so who gave away the Tell.

Either, Le Chiffre created the tell, and assumed Bond would read into it. He knew Bond would be looking for one, so create one and use it to his advantage.

or

Vesper is actually involved with Quantum from an earlier stage. If she was, then why would Le Chiffre need to kidnap her. Surely then she wasn’t working with them until that scene. Who actually texts her in the restaurant, when she says ‘Mathis needs me’?

or

The film has a continuity error and doesn’t tie up with Casino Royale.

or

I’m missing something glaringly obvious, then forgive me!

Comments

  • taitytaity Posts: 702MI6 Agent
    Jonny1980 wrote:
    Vesper is actually involved with Quantum from an earlier stage. If she was, then why would Le Chiffre need to kidnap her. Surely then she wasn’t working with them until that scene. Who actually texts her in the restaurant, when she says ‘Mathis needs me’?

    Bingo. Vesper was working for Quantum before she met Bond. Le Chiffre kidnapped her so that he could get Bond, he also wouldnt have cared if she lived or died. Hence why she was expendable enough to leave on the road. This is also how it was easy enough for Le Chiffre to capture her.

    In the novel she gets a message from a waitress and goes and waits outside. Bond gets suspicious that Mathis would contact her and not both of them, and goes to investigate. I can imagine when Bond says "Mathis" he doesnt suspect him, merely questions that it was Mathis who sent the message.
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    This is one area where CR stumbles a bit. Le Chiffre's entire plan of getting Bond to follow him hinged on Bond coming to the 'false' conclusion that Mathis was up to no good, and thus realize Vesper was in danger, and pursuing after her. I think a much more accurate scene would have shown Vesper being thrown into a sedan by LC's thugs, and then cut to Craig chewing away at his steak and admiring the ceiling.
  • walther p99walther p99 NJPosts: 3,416MI6 Agent
    darenhat wrote:
    and then cut to Craig chewing away at his steak and admiring the ceiling.
    :))
  • J_BurnhamJ_Burnham Posts: 40MI6 Agent
    I think jonny1980 there is a continuity error, in both films because i don't know if you will recall, but when bond is dragged from his smashed up Aston in CR you'll remember Le Chiffre tells Bond that 'your friend Mathis is really mind friend Mathis' (or words to those effect) therefore why would he say that if Mathis was innocent in QoS. Why also would Vesper reveal to le Chiffre that bond was aware of his tell, if a) she wasn't going to give him anymore money i.e. £5 million buy in or b) making him loose would help no one, she needed bond to help her get her BF back but she was adamant about Le Chiffre not winning, and so therefore why would she aid him and tell him how LC could win. I am as you are Jonny1980 vexed by this, as i also understand that Vesper and Le Chiffre were both unaware of each others involvement in Quantum. Maybe... this is a stab in the Dark it was an attempt for us to see Bonds arrogance, and therefore no one revealed his 'tell', it was merely LC playing him and he fell for it, and therefore because his ego was damaged he looks to blame others??? But still whose side was mathis on if he was LC friend but innocent in QoS?
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,746Chief of Staff
    J_Burnham wrote:
    IBut still whose side was mathis on if he was LC friend but innocent in QoS?

    But he's not innocent in either film...Mathis tells us that in QoS.
    YNWA 97
  • Colonel ShatnerColonel Shatner Chavtastic Bristol, BritainPosts: 574MI6 Agent
    Both Le Chiffre and Vesper Lynd were expendable to the Quantum syndicate, maybe Le Chiffre was ignorant that Vesper Lynd was a spy from the same side as him while Mr. White had undercover operatives keeping tabs on what was going in the hotel with Le Chiffre and his little group unaware of their presence ("The first thing you should know about us is that we have people everywhere…").

    Mr. White moved in to kill Le Chiffre not only because his failure at the gambling table, but also because his financial failures indirectly killed an important Quantum client (Obanno), he was a big lead to Quantum that had MI6 and the CIA right on his tail, and he nearly rashly sacrificed an important Quantum mole in the British government (who by then had more of a chance to get the money while distracting a top MI6 operative).

    Mathis was innocent, but Lynd told Mr. White who told Le Chiffre about James Bond's game-plan and other secrets (like the tracking device). It is true that Vesper Lynd was blackmailed into being a double agent for Quantum for at least 18 months, and it is confirmed that her boyfriend was a Quantum agent.

    And Mr. White got the briefcase perhaps because it had a tracking device and floatation airbags, while he may have employed sophisticated surveillance devices to both help and hinder Le Chiffre (like inform Le Chiffre of Bond's tracker beacon because Mr. White had a satellite tracking device set on the same frequency as MI6's, while sending out a plane drone to observe the car chase and then to track down Le Chiffre's cars to the derelict barge).
    'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...'
  • J_BurnhamJ_Burnham Posts: 40MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles wrote:
    J_Burnham wrote:
    IBut still whose side was mathis on if he was LC friend but innocent in QoS?

    But he's not innocent in either film...Mathis tells us that in QoS.

    But I understood that in QoS Mathis' girlfriend tells us that because he was arrested, tortured and found innocent he was given that luxury house/apartment at the first scene we see him in?
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,746Chief of Staff
    J_Burnham wrote:
    Sir Miles wrote:
    J_Burnham wrote:
    IBut still whose side was mathis on if he was LC friend but innocent in QoS?

    But he's not innocent in either film...Mathis tells us that in QoS.

    But I understood that in QoS Mathis' girlfriend tells us that because he was arrested, tortured and found innocent he was given that luxury house/apartment at the first scene we see him in?

    Plenty of people have been 'found' innocent when clearly they are not. Mitchell passes several lie-detector tests over the years, for example...it's not too far a stretch to assume that Mathis did too.
    YNWA 97
  • J_BurnhamJ_Burnham Posts: 40MI6 Agent
    I must of missed that part Sir miles, thanks for clarifying {[]
  • Colonel ShatnerColonel Shatner Chavtastic Bristol, BritainPosts: 574MI6 Agent
    Do you think Mathis (which isn't his real name) could've been a former Quantum operative who worked with Mr. White from back in the 60s & 70s? He hasn't really been part of Quantum long since then, but neither was he SIS.
    'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...'
  • darenhatdarenhat The Old PuebloPosts: 2,029Quartermasters
    I got the impression in CR (mind you I haven't seen QoS yet so I'm unaware of any new information that might have been revealed) that Le Chiffre was not working for Quantum. White and Quantum were merely the ones who made the introduction between Le Chiffre and the General who loaned him the money. White implies that his organization was only there to arrange the deal. If that were the case, I think Le Chiffre was not a part of Quantum (and his assassination by them was merely a move to prevent LC from killing Bond or Vesper). It is possible the LC and Mathis were in league, but I think LC was in the dark in regard to the connection between White, Vesper, and/or Mathis.
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