I don't think this wider debate will rest and will re-surge before every new film until Bond literaly is cast as black disabled lesbian vegetarian amputee dwarf. Then we can all be happy.
Obviously it is mandatory now after every statement of late to say I have nothing against black disabled lesbian vegetarian amputee dwarves - or any combination of that list.
I don't think this wider debate will rest and will re-surge before every new film until Bond literaly is cast as black disabled lesbian vegetarian amputee dwarf. Then we can all be happy.
Obviously it is mandatory now after every statement of late to say I have nothing against black disabled lesbian vegetarian amputee dwarves - or any combination of that list.
But what about people of colour whose sexual preference is their own personal choice and who chose to define themselves not through their ability or their consumptive preference? You big racist.
But what about people of colour whose sexual preference is their own personal choice and who chose to define themselves not through their ability or their consumptive preference?
Well...those people ought to be Bond, obviously :007)
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Hmmm... having seen P Diddy with his bling and his tux and his babes, somehow there is something in this. He sort of gets away with it, it doesn't have the old imperialist or class associations. It feels like the Connery films used to be. Sort of cheeky.
People said Craig couldn't be Bond because he had blonde hair and was a little short. But then Craig wow'ed the critics and gave such a great performance that people didn't care what he looked like. I think a black Bond can rise above skepticism as well.
I think Number24 is spot on. When Connery played Bond, he played the part of a wealthy elitist cultured Brit who frequented country clubs and such. Right now, a lot of people don't associate black skin with established generational wealth. So, to see a black man who has been in the upper-crust for generations is different than the norms, but it's going to happen soon once full economic equality is realized in the 21st century.
There's nothing off-base with what I said. I simply said that lots of people won't accept a black Bond purely because most wealthy successful people are white. And it's tough for them to imagine a secret service spy being anything other than white.
I wish the community could say "I don't care about skin color, as long as the Bond actor is qualified". But we aren't at that point yet.
There are still 21st century injustices. I'd say all Brits of all races and skin tones have basic civil rights. But more white people are in the upper-crust of society because they've had more generations of opportunity to build and spread their wealth.
There is an expression, "when you're in a hole stop digging " )
It's like a Sony Executive email about President Obama.
Honestly you can't think of any wealthy, successful, talented
Black people ? 8-)
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
There is an expression, "when you're in a hole stop digging " )
It's like a Sony Executive email about President Obama.
Honestly you can't think of any wealthy, successful, talented
Black people ? 8-)
I think you misunderstood what I was saying.
"Society should accept a black James Bond" =/= "Obama must like Kevin Hart!".
My main point is that people are resistant toward a black Bond because they're used a society where only white could be "old-money". And I think we should totally subvert that convention.
It's strange to see all the changes the movies have made to the source material, incorporating modern technology and even being practically set in a modern society, yet some still believe that Bond has to be white because that's how society was when Ian Fleming was alive. I've generally found that lots of people are okay with the Bond series incorporating new things, but as soon as the possibility of a non-white Bond is introduced, there's a sense of skepticism.
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
Wow, what an old thread!
I'm afraid that much of what's been posted is correct. It seems that Bond, more than any other fictional property, is heavily "regulated" by public perception and contrary to my own estimate of the public reception around 2005, I think that popular tastes have bolstered a non-traditional Bond. However, the same popular tastes and public perception as they stand today, will not accept a Bond who is not white, male, heterosexual or (maybe) British. Public perception is simply a reflection of private biases and I can even link this observation to Yahoo's own disclosure back in June 2014 that their own workforce does not reflect the diversity of the market. What market, you ask? For example, statistics show that there are now more women than men attending and graduating from college and yet Yahoo's workforce and that of rest of the market does not mirror this. It's the same thing with race and the proportions of qualified individuals in the market, vs. the race make-up within the ranks of professionals and executives in Fortune 500 companies. So, yes, sadly the present (and near future) casting decisions for the Bond character is a mere litmus test of general public sentiments.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
I just find it hypocritical that many Bond fans are in favor of forgoing the source material in many instances but when the idea of Bond being black is brought up, they revert to the "Bond films need to strictly follow the source material" argument.
Giant high-definition plasma screen tables displaying defense intelligence = Okay
A black James Bond = How dare Eon films try to tamper with Fleming's artistic vision!
I just find it hypocritical that many Bond fans are in favor of forgoing the source material in many instances but when the idea of Bond being black is brought up, they revert to the "Bond films need to strictly follow the source material" argument.
Giant high-definition plasma screen tables displaying defense intelligence = Okay
A black James Bond = How dare Eon films try to tamper with Fleming's artistic vision!
If you ever find yourself having a windfall of about a few hundred million dollars along with property rights for Bond, I would love to see you follow-through with your convictions and produce a Black Bond (or Gay Bond, Jane Bond, Asian Bond, etc.) The question is, whether or not you'd be likeminded with EON/Sony and care/not care if you lose or make money. It boils down to business and what ensures future profits is the difference between good and bad business.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
^ Does this mean you're also wholly against Roger Moore, since he's the antithesis of Fleming's Bond too?
I don't voice what anyone else said, but I don't think fidelity to Fleming's Bond has anything to do with the successful longevity of the film series. Once audiences got a taste of Bond with DN, Bond ceased being exclusively Fleming's creation and entered into public ownership in a manner of speaking. Audiences loved RM, the box office affirmed that and before he was cast, TV viewership affirmed that too.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
No - I enjoyed Moores interpretation (the early ones at least) as he was the Bond during my childhood. There is however only so far you can stray from the origins of the character - whatever your colour - before Bond is no longer Bond.
So you're a selective traditionalist. You support tons of differences to the formula, so long as a black Bond isn't one of them.
I agree with Superado. Bond is what the public wants him to be. On one hand, the public at the moment isn't united in favor of Bond possibly being black. But it could, some time in the future.
In 10-20 years, many will wonder what all the fuss was about in the first place.
superadoRegent's Park West (CaliforniaPosts: 2,656MI6 Agent
I wonder what undercurrents are fueling all of this? Seems like a desire to call out prejudices just to express negative emotions.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
I agree with Superado. Bond is what the public wants him to be. On one hand, the public at the moment isn't united in favor of Bond possibly being black. But it could, some time in the future.
In 10-20 years, I expect most people will be starting to wonder why the Bond community had such an aversion to a possibly black Bond to begin with. In fact, I'll start right now.
I think I pretty much said everything I needed to say, unless there's anything else someone wants me to clarify.
If you will allow me to add my two cents. First, I was initially taken aback by your post, but I could see from your later explanations that you were misunderstood. Secondly, as you know this topic has been brought up in the past and has elicted some pretty strong reactions. I believe most of the feedback has been pretty civil, but there have been a few post here and there that contained what I feel was thinly-veiled racism. You probably realize by now that I am both very old and also Black. I am one of those who have been opposed to the idea of making Bond Black, and here is an earlier post explaining my reasons:
"If I may chime in again, I think you make some valid points, and although I agree with those who think it would not be a good idea to have a Black actor play Bond, perhaps my reasons are not quite the same as those expressed by some others. When I commented earlier I was commenting on the "cinematic" Bond, and how it would be jarring after all of these years of Bond being a WASP, to suddenly see a Black Bond. Perhaps that would have less impact on younger, more recent fans, but I have been there since Dr. No, so if I see a Black Bond I am no longer looking at the character I have followed for so many years. However, I must say that my concerns don't have that much to do with the fact that the character has strayed from the Bond that Ian Fleming originally conceived. For example, it doesn't bother me very much that the latest Bond is blonde, although admittedly it has taken me a bit of time to get used to that. I disagree with those who say that you cannot change ANY aspect of Fleming's character and still have James Bond, but to me changing his race is nearly as fundamental as changing his gender, and I just don't think it would be Bond anymore if the producers decided to go that route. I think your example about Hamlet is a little off point since that character only appeared in a single story. The cinematic Bond has been on view in more than 20 films for a period of nearly 50 years, and the Bond that has become indelibly etched in everyone's mind VISUALLY is a white male. One last point - instead of a "Black James Bond", which in mind connotes a Black actor portraying a Black version of a white character, I would prefer to see the creation of an iconic Black character who could appear in a series of films as entertaining, popular and enduring as the Bond series. For example, I think the three "Shaft" movies were on that path, but unfortunately they didn't continue. The Shaft reboot or remake or whatever it was with Sam Jackson was a bust as far as I'm concerned because it didn't really feel like a Shaft movie at all. Just imagine, though, if we had a dynamic Black character that could come back in film after film facing new adventures, and who would be a force in flims for so long that talented Black actors would, over the ensuing years, vie to take over the role as each actor before him steps down. I think that would be great, and maybe some day fans would argue about whether a White actor should be tapped to play that character. I suspect there would be many folks of all races who would probaly say that having a White actor (or a woman) play that role takes us too far astray from the essence of the original character. Just my two cents (well....a bit more than two cents, but you all know what I mean!)"
I don't know that my opinion has changed very much on this subject, but I do not rule out the possibility that someday in the future the notion of a Black Bond will not only be acceptable, but actually a non-issue for most fans. Hopefully you and I are in agreement about that. Sorry to taking up so much space!
I really think that was a fair articulate response. I can't say that you've convinced me that a black Bond is totally out of the question, but you've presented a pretty civil reasonable argument nonetheless. I thank you for taking the time.
When I think of a good actor, I think of transparency. When there's a good actor, the actor literally becomes that character. If a black actor was highly skilled and embodied the full personality of Bond, people are not going to care if he's black or white. For a second, or at least when they watch the trailer, they may be like "what? a black Bond?" but when they watch the movie, I suspect, they'll be so immersed that they won't care. It's the personality and performance that enamors us.
What separates black Bond from female Bond, in my eyes, is the fact that Bond's gender and sexual preferences have been a huge plot point in the series (e.g. Bond missing a shot on a sniper because she is a woman). Sometimes it gets misogynistic and I don't always agree with it, but I totally understand that Bond, as a key part of the story is a man. I don't think Bond's race has ever been a factor in any of the plots.
Bond has been white, but he doesn't have to be white. A black Bond will break a tradition, but won't violate any set-in-stone rules. I agree with making new IP's with black leads and I don't think 007 needs to have a black actor in order to be a great series. But between a black Sean Connery and a white George Lazenby, I'd take the former.
They said Craig could never be Bond because he had blonde hair. Then Craig wow'ed his critics and him looking different than Fleming's Bond didn't matter. I think a black Bond can rise above skepticism as well.
I think Number24 is spot on. When Connery played Bond, he played the part of a wealthy elitist cultured Brit who frequented country clubs and such. As long as black skin isn't associated with money, success and high-class living, people won't accept a black Bond.
But they should accept that a black Bond would be totally fine.
That's not what I ment. This is my opinion: Bond is a part of an old Scottish noble family on his father's side and his mother is Swiss. How can black man convicingly portray a man of that background? Imagine Idris Elba playing Bond in Skyfall, driving north to Scotland and visiting his old ancestral home. Elba is a fine actor, but it wouldn't have been enough. At best it would be jarring, at its worst it could be laughable. Bond is a man with a long family history from the European upper class, and that means he is white.
but if it's between a black Sean Connery and a white Lazenby, I'd take the former.
) ) I see your point. The problem is there's no such thing because if he's Sean Connery, then by definition he's white. And that sort of illustrates the point I was trying to make in my long-winded response about why I am opposed to a Black Bond. Given my long-time familiarity with seeing Bond being portrayed by the likes of Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton, Brosnan, and Craig, my initial reaction would be "That's not James Bond, that's b]INSERT THE NAME OF BLACK ACTOR[/b" But I can see the possibility that some day younger fans will be able to get beyond that. By the way, I think an even more pointed way to get your idea across might have been stated as "But if it's a choice between Idris Elba as Bond and George Lazenby as Bond, I'd take the former." That way race is no longer the issue, and the acting talent and attributes of what makes a good Bond becomes the focus. (Not assuming that you would choose Elba over Lazenby, just using those choices as examples.) -{
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/dec/17/white-supremacists-boycott-thor
White supremacists urge Thor boycott over casting of black actor as Norse god
Will Smith as Jim West, Samuel l Jackson as Nick Fury. )
Though this might be of interest.
After all, there are no Black Scottish families, or indeed Swiss Black families. )
Not out for an argument guys, just think it's funny how some people react.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/dec/17/white-supremacists-boycott-thor
White supremacists urge Thor boycott over casting of black actor as Norse god
Will Smith as Jim West, Samuel l Jackson as Nick Fury. )
Though this might be of interest.
After all, there are no Black Scottish families, or indeed Swiss Black families. )
Not out for an argument guys, just think it's funny how some people react.
Of cource there are black Swiss and Scottish families. That's just shoddy debating to "forget" that I clearly wrote old families from the upper class. But you can't find black families there that has been a part of the national upper class for centuries. They don't have official crests with familiy mottoes in latin and their families haven't lived in many generations in a place like Skyfall lodge.
Comments
The new improved Bond.
{[] Cheers
I'm old fasioned,Bond is an white guy in his mid 30s not a politicaly correct black guy
some things are what they are end of story. :007)
" Sono Topolino, e tu chi saresti? ".
http://www.facebook.com/agent00univex
Obviously it is mandatory now after every statement of late to say I have nothing against black disabled lesbian vegetarian amputee dwarves - or any combination of that list.
But what about people of colour whose sexual preference is their own personal choice and who chose to define themselves not through their ability or their consumptive preference? You big racist.
@merseytart
Well...those people ought to be Bond, obviously :007)
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Roger Moore 1927-2017
People said Craig couldn't be Bond because he had blonde hair and was a little short. But then Craig wow'ed the critics and gave such a great performance that people didn't care what he looked like. I think a black Bond can rise above skepticism as well.
I think Number24 is spot on. When Connery played Bond, he played the part of a wealthy elitist cultured Brit who frequented country clubs and such. Right now, a lot of people don't associate black skin with established generational wealth. So, to see a black man who has been in the upper-crust for generations is different than the norms, but it's going to happen soon once full economic equality is realized in the 21st century.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
I can't actually believe you really wrote that on a public forum.
I wish the community could say "I don't care about skin color, as long as the Bond actor is qualified". But we aren't at that point yet.
There are still 21st century injustices. I'd say all Brits of all races and skin tones have basic civil rights. But more white people are in the upper-crust of society because they've had more generations of opportunity to build and spread their wealth.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
It's like a Sony Executive email about President Obama.
Honestly you can't think of any wealthy, successful, talented
Black people ? 8-)
I think you misunderstood what I was saying.
"Society should accept a black James Bond" =/= "Obama must like Kevin Hart!".
My main point is that people are resistant toward a black Bond because they're used a society where only white could be "old-money". And I think we should totally subvert that convention.
It's strange to see all the changes the movies have made to the source material, incorporating modern technology and even being practically set in a modern society, yet some still believe that Bond has to be white because that's how society was when Ian Fleming was alive. I've generally found that lots of people are okay with the Bond series incorporating new things, but as soon as the possibility of a non-white Bond is introduced, there's a sense of skepticism.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
I'm afraid that much of what's been posted is correct. It seems that Bond, more than any other fictional property, is heavily "regulated" by public perception and contrary to my own estimate of the public reception around 2005, I think that popular tastes have bolstered a non-traditional Bond. However, the same popular tastes and public perception as they stand today, will not accept a Bond who is not white, male, heterosexual or (maybe) British. Public perception is simply a reflection of private biases and I can even link this observation to Yahoo's own disclosure back in June 2014 that their own workforce does not reflect the diversity of the market. What market, you ask? For example, statistics show that there are now more women than men attending and graduating from college and yet Yahoo's workforce and that of rest of the market does not mirror this. It's the same thing with race and the proportions of qualified individuals in the market, vs. the race make-up within the ranks of professionals and executives in Fortune 500 companies. So, yes, sadly the present (and near future) casting decisions for the Bond character is a mere litmus test of general public sentiments.
Giant high-definition plasma screen tables displaying defense intelligence = Okay
A black James Bond = How dare Eon films try to tamper with Fleming's artistic vision!
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
If you ever find yourself having a windfall of about a few hundred million dollars along with property rights for Bond, I would love to see you follow-through with your convictions and produce a Black Bond (or Gay Bond, Jane Bond, Asian Bond, etc.) The question is, whether or not you'd be likeminded with EON/Sony and care/not care if you lose or make money. It boils down to business and what ensures future profits is the difference between good and bad business.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
I don't voice what anyone else said, but I don't think fidelity to Fleming's Bond has anything to do with the successful longevity of the film series. Once audiences got a taste of Bond with DN, Bond ceased being exclusively Fleming's creation and entered into public ownership in a manner of speaking. Audiences loved RM, the box office affirmed that and before he was cast, TV viewership affirmed that too.
So you're a selective traditionalist. You support tons of differences to the formula, so long as a black Bond isn't one of them.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
In 10-20 years, many will wonder what all the fuss was about in the first place.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
If you will allow me to add my two cents. First, I was initially taken aback by your post, but I could see from your later explanations that you were misunderstood. Secondly, as you know this topic has been brought up in the past and has elicted some pretty strong reactions. I believe most of the feedback has been pretty civil, but there have been a few post here and there that contained what I feel was thinly-veiled racism. You probably realize by now that I am both very old and also Black. I am one of those who have been opposed to the idea of making Bond Black, and here is an earlier post explaining my reasons:
"If I may chime in again, I think you make some valid points, and although I agree with those who think it would not be a good idea to have a Black actor play Bond, perhaps my reasons are not quite the same as those expressed by some others. When I commented earlier I was commenting on the "cinematic" Bond, and how it would be jarring after all of these years of Bond being a WASP, to suddenly see a Black Bond. Perhaps that would have less impact on younger, more recent fans, but I have been there since Dr. No, so if I see a Black Bond I am no longer looking at the character I have followed for so many years. However, I must say that my concerns don't have that much to do with the fact that the character has strayed from the Bond that Ian Fleming originally conceived. For example, it doesn't bother me very much that the latest Bond is blonde, although admittedly it has taken me a bit of time to get used to that. I disagree with those who say that you cannot change ANY aspect of Fleming's character and still have James Bond, but to me changing his race is nearly as fundamental as changing his gender, and I just don't think it would be Bond anymore if the producers decided to go that route. I think your example about Hamlet is a little off point since that character only appeared in a single story. The cinematic Bond has been on view in more than 20 films for a period of nearly 50 years, and the Bond that has become indelibly etched in everyone's mind VISUALLY is a white male. One last point - instead of a "Black James Bond", which in mind connotes a Black actor portraying a Black version of a white character, I would prefer to see the creation of an iconic Black character who could appear in a series of films as entertaining, popular and enduring as the Bond series. For example, I think the three "Shaft" movies were on that path, but unfortunately they didn't continue. The Shaft reboot or remake or whatever it was with Sam Jackson was a bust as far as I'm concerned because it didn't really feel like a Shaft movie at all. Just imagine, though, if we had a dynamic Black character that could come back in film after film facing new adventures, and who would be a force in flims for so long that talented Black actors would, over the ensuing years, vie to take over the role as each actor before him steps down. I think that would be great, and maybe some day fans would argue about whether a White actor should be tapped to play that character. I suspect there would be many folks of all races who would probaly say that having a White actor (or a woman) play that role takes us too far astray from the essence of the original character. Just my two cents (well....a bit more than two cents, but you all know what I mean!)"
I don't know that my opinion has changed very much on this subject, but I do not rule out the possibility that someday in the future the notion of a Black Bond will not only be acceptable, but actually a non-issue for most fans. Hopefully you and I are in agreement about that. Sorry to taking up so much space!
When I think of a good actor, I think of transparency. When there's a good actor, the actor literally becomes that character. If a black actor was highly skilled and embodied the full personality of Bond, people are not going to care if he's black or white. For a second, or at least when they watch the trailer, they may be like "what? a black Bond?" but when they watch the movie, I suspect, they'll be so immersed that they won't care. It's the personality and performance that enamors us.
What separates black Bond from female Bond, in my eyes, is the fact that Bond's gender and sexual preferences have been a huge plot point in the series (e.g. Bond missing a shot on a sniper because she is a woman). Sometimes it gets misogynistic and I don't always agree with it, but I totally understand that Bond, as a key part of the story is a man. I don't think Bond's race has ever been a factor in any of the plots.
Bond has been white, but he doesn't have to be white. A black Bond will break a tradition, but won't violate any set-in-stone rules. I agree with making new IP's with black leads and I don't think 007 needs to have a black actor in order to be a great series. But between a black Sean Connery and a white George Lazenby, I'd take the former.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
That's not what I ment. This is my opinion: Bond is a part of an old Scottish noble family on his father's side and his mother is Swiss. How can black man convicingly portray a man of that background? Imagine Idris Elba playing Bond in Skyfall, driving north to Scotland and visiting his old ancestral home. Elba is a fine actor, but it wouldn't have been enough. At best it would be jarring, at its worst it could be laughable. Bond is a man with a long family history from the European upper class, and that means he is white.
White supremacists urge Thor boycott over casting of black actor as Norse god
Will Smith as Jim West, Samuel l Jackson as Nick Fury.
Though this might be of interest.
After all, there are no Black Scottish families, or indeed Swiss Black families.
Not out for an argument guys, just think it's funny how some people react.
Of cource there are black Swiss and Scottish families. That's just shoddy debating to "forget" that I clearly wrote old families from the upper class. But you can't find black families there that has been a part of the national upper class for centuries. They don't have official crests with familiy mottoes in latin and their families haven't lived in many generations in a place like Skyfall lodge.