WatchTime Bond article by Dell Deaton
Shatterhand67
Safe HousePosts: 424MI6 Agent
Hello all.
I frequent the local Barnes and Noble to peruse the magazine section...usually the watch magazines as I am a watch freak.
I found an excellent article by Dell Deaton in the February issue of WatchTime magazine. In it he explores the genesis of the Bond watch and what he truly believes the Bond watch is according to Ian Fleming.
The article was very well researched. Here's some bullet points of what I can recall:
1) Fleming actually is on record saying that Bond would have chosen cheap but dependable watches for most of his missions.
2) At the urging of a reader, he used a Rolex Oyster Perpetual because of it's waterproof nature.
3) Fleming himself wore many watches but the only one to have survived him was his Rolex Explorer which he began to wear after Hillary climbed Mt. Everest in 1953. The watch he mentions with the large phosphorous numerals is the Rolex Explorer. Although this is the case he still gave a nod to his reader by referring to it as an Oyster Perpetual.
4) Of course we all know that the Rolex Submariner that was used by Connery was in fact Cubby Broccoli's watch. That seems to be the only reason for that particular Rolex being used. But the Rolex that is described is definitely the Explorer.
5) Fleming was a creature of habit and if he had a particular brand loyalty it was mentioned in the books again again and again. That is not the case when it comes to the watches Bond uses.
Of course nowadays a real special service man would probably wear a G-Shock or Pathfinder while in the field. If you can find the magazine at you local bookstores you should definitely give it a read. This was only part one by the way...taking the Bond watches through the 1970's. Part two will feature 1980's to present day.
I know there are Rolex enthusiasts out there who will say the Submariner is the only way to go. However, Fleming himself seems to have left watch brands open for Bond and the Sub never seems to have made an appearance in the books.
Great job Dell! I look forward to reading part two next month.
I frequent the local Barnes and Noble to peruse the magazine section...usually the watch magazines as I am a watch freak.
I found an excellent article by Dell Deaton in the February issue of WatchTime magazine. In it he explores the genesis of the Bond watch and what he truly believes the Bond watch is according to Ian Fleming.
The article was very well researched. Here's some bullet points of what I can recall:
1) Fleming actually is on record saying that Bond would have chosen cheap but dependable watches for most of his missions.
2) At the urging of a reader, he used a Rolex Oyster Perpetual because of it's waterproof nature.
3) Fleming himself wore many watches but the only one to have survived him was his Rolex Explorer which he began to wear after Hillary climbed Mt. Everest in 1953. The watch he mentions with the large phosphorous numerals is the Rolex Explorer. Although this is the case he still gave a nod to his reader by referring to it as an Oyster Perpetual.
4) Of course we all know that the Rolex Submariner that was used by Connery was in fact Cubby Broccoli's watch. That seems to be the only reason for that particular Rolex being used. But the Rolex that is described is definitely the Explorer.
5) Fleming was a creature of habit and if he had a particular brand loyalty it was mentioned in the books again again and again. That is not the case when it comes to the watches Bond uses.
Of course nowadays a real special service man would probably wear a G-Shock or Pathfinder while in the field. If you can find the magazine at you local bookstores you should definitely give it a read. This was only part one by the way...taking the Bond watches through the 1970's. Part two will feature 1980's to present day.
I know there are Rolex enthusiasts out there who will say the Submariner is the only way to go. However, Fleming himself seems to have left watch brands open for Bond and the Sub never seems to have made an appearance in the books.
Great job Dell! I look forward to reading part two next month.
"I musht be dreaming."
Comments
Nevertheless, it's a good read and I would reccomend adding it to ones watch book/magazine library. Let us not forget, that the Rolex Explorer I is collectible as a Bond watch because Fleming wore it.
The February issue of International Watch also has a Bond related watch article titled "Time For Bond Part 1 (1962-1979), A look at the early James Bond films and the wristwear that helped save the world-several times". It's written by Anthony Young and is O.K., but I think it lacks the type of detail that us Bond fanatics are after.
If you can buy only one, get the one containing Deaton's article.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
I would like to see something definitive about the origin of the movie Rolex, and that nylon band that shows up in "Goldfinger".
It is of course a natural fallback to assume that whatever Fleming wore is what Bond must of had. It works just as well as any other theory when IF is vague in his descriptions.
I would recommend Donald Grant's articles for AJB above any others. They are accurate and well-written, they have excellent photos as well.
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
this is the watch in question...
Anyone who hasn't seen it yet, get there before it closes...
When we saw this last year Paul, didn't we think that the display was generic and might not be Flemings personal belongings but items related to Fleming, Bond and the books ? Looking at the display again, it seems very much like that.
yes...hence I said, this is the watch in question...here's a pic of the whole display..
i tgt a high definition pic (no box brownie there..
i'll ask the people at the IWM if they know more about it next time i speak to them...
until then, let the games commence... 8-)
This is a godsend for those of us who can't get to the IWM.
{[]
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=224217
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
It will be interesting to see what transpires futher.
Donald, I can't ipen the mentioned discussion (I am not registered there. Any chance to let us know?
Is there a place, where I can read the mentioned article online as I have no access to WatchTime.
Now that you say it: The times are OVER, that I have been pre-writing your posts on AJB. Over, comprende??
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=222506
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
Marcus, I don't think you have to join Watchuseek to read it, but here is a cut and paste. The originator of the idea of the literary Bond owning a Rolex Explorer is responding to a post by Deaton about what watch Bond should wear:
Mr Deaton, I am gratified to see that you now appear to be convinced by the argument I presented a couple of months ago.
Deaton's Quote:
He should wear a current Rolex Explorer at least once as acknowledgment of the Ian Fleming choice.
However, I am, frankly surprised, as, when I asserted that Fleming owned an Explorer I, you stated that:
Deaton's Quote:
Oh, yeah: Your statement regarding the positive ID on the watch. You're wrong on that. I have copies of the Rolex paperwork w/ the actual information.
I have to confess, I'm still waiting to see this paperwork.
Just to keep everyone up to date, I now think, based on the 'Villiers' painting and the watch on display, that Fleming owned at least two Explorers: a 34mm (6350) from the early fifties and a 36mm (1016) one from some point after spring 1963. (the 1016 was launched at Basle in April 1963, about the same time as OHMSS was published) As the 'Villiers' painting was painted in 1962 before the 1016 was launched, the 1016 on show simply cannot have been the watch he wore in that painting. This evidence is largely redundant however, as the watch in the painting is clearly a 34mm watch.
Moving on, and by way of humour, I think that the next watch /literary hero we should be trying to work out is Biggles.
So what watch did Biggles wear?
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=222506
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
That is really bad. I used to defend DD here, but he's obviously gone over the edge on his obsessions with Bonds watch to the point where he's gone nuts. He's not gonna recover from this episode, and his Owellian purges are beginning to creep over other forums. Anyway, we posted the Explorer info here early last year. Old news, move along
M4tt wrote this in the Rolex Section of Watchuseek when he heard Deaton published an article using his information:
A few months ago, I wrote a speculative article concerning the watch that Ian Fleming imagined onto the wrist of his creation, James Bond.
Here it is:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthr...ighlight=redux
Now, by one of those funny coincidences, it has been pointed out to me that Mr Deaton is shortly to publish a magazine article on this very subject.
http://jamesbondwatches.blogspot.com...ly-id-ian.html
Congratulations Mr Deaton.
As it happens, my original article came about as the result of a thread concerning 'Bond watches' which was locked due an unfortunate argument between Mr Deaton and myself. This began with Mr Deaton quite correctly pointing out that a painting I was using to support my hypothesis was still copyright and ended with a threadlock. The thread was eventually reopened but neither of us posted in it.
Here it is:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthr...ght=james+bond
However, by way of advertising what promises to be a fascinating article, Mr Deaton has asked a number of interesting questions. I think I might have a crack at answering them.
Quote:
Why was no model ever specified?
Well, there are two possible answers to this question:
1) Fleming in fact had at least two Rolex Explorers. An early 34mm and a later 36mm. His first ' Rolex Oyster Perpetual Chronometer' was in fact just that. While it would be renamed the Explorer it was a proto Explorer and, as such, had nothing else on the dial.
The Proto Explorer, that is, the early Rolex 6350, sometimes simply didn’t have anything else on the dial. For a brief period prior to the conquering of Everest, the watch that would become the Explorer was merely called a Rolex Oyster Perpetual, among other names. This is the watch that features in the ‘Villiers’ picture and is known by some as the Big Bubbleback. I will say more about the 36mm Explorer in a little while…
2) Fleming only had one Rolex Explorer, a 36mm model. This had 'Explorer' on the dial but he simply left it off for artistic reasons: the list was simply getting too long.
Personally I think all the evidence supports position one but position two is at least viable.
Quote:
Why was a brand only named these two times in a canon that includes fourteen published books spanning over a dozen years?
The simple answer to this question is that while it is named directly only twice it is referred to quite explicitly several more times. For example, in Thunderball, Felix Leiter notes that:
Quote:
'You're still wearing that old wristwatch of yours with the big phosphorous numerals’
Fleming then has Leiter describe another Rolex watch, the GMT Master. The identity is clear as he refers to a contamination of the Tritium in the lume of the GMT Master with Strontium. This only happened to this one watch at this time.
Thus, I think the answer is simply that, like any other decent author, Fleming did not need to obsessively name every product Bond used every time he used that product. The Bond books were popular; he didn’t need too much repetition. The fans already knew.
Quote:
Did both of those watches look the same?
This is an interesting question. Once again there are two good answers that come from two different directions: from a textual basis and from a biographical basis.
The textual argument would suggest that the watch is unchanging: In Thunderball (1961) Leither says:
Quote:
'You're still wearing that old wristwatch of yours with the big phosphorous numerals’
(my italics) I’d say this is evidence of continuity. In OHMSS (1963) Bond muses that:
Quote:
‘at least you could see the time in the dark with those big phosphorous numerals’.
In Live and Let Die (1954) nothing is mentioned apart from that he is wearing a Rolex.
Quote:
‘He looked at the Rolex watch on his wrist. It was three minutes past eleven o'clock’
However, quite a lot can be inferred. The first thing is that it isn’t a Submariner. The reason is simple. The Submariner was launched in 1954, after Live and Let Die had been written. However, given that Bond was reading the watch underwater in the dark, the lume and water resistance would have had to have been pretty good: just as it is in the Explorer with the precision oyster case and screw down crown.
The biographical argument is simply that Fleming had at least two Rolex Explorers, or rather one 34mm Proto Explorer and one later 36mm Explorer. We know this because the watch in the 'Villiers painting is clearly a 34mm Rolex (proto) Explorer while he also owned a 36mm Explorer as I shall explain... This would suggest that he would have imagined Bond in a progressively larger Explorer I.
Personally I think that the textual argument is the more convincing.
Quote:
Was there a relationship between the first EON Productions movie-Bond Rolex Submariner and any literary-Bond watch model?
I say no. The literary Bond watch was an Explorer while the film version was a Sub. If there were further documentary evidence then one or other of the many Bond Mavens would have trumpeted it well before now. They haven't
Quote:
Is it relevant what Ian Fleming, himself, wore on his own wrist - at any time in his life?
Yes, as I argued very clearly in my article on this issue two months ago, Fleming initially equipped Bond with the gun he owned, gave him the same rank as he had and in describing the watch Bond was wearing he gave an exact description of the watch he owned and was wearing for the publicity picture of OHMSS. How much evidence do you need?
As it happens, Mr Deaton has commented on my hypothesis that Ian Fleming wore a Rolex Explorer I:
Quote:
What else do you think I've missed? Oh, yeah: Your statement regarding the positive ID on the watch. You're wrong on that. I have copies of the Rolex paperwork w/ the actual information.
Now there is a delicious irony to this. I too have been doing my research and, only the other day, I stood three feet in front of Ian Fleming’s own personal watch and I can confirm that it is a Rolex Explorer I exactly as I asserted at the time.
Now as Mr Deaton said recently:
Quote:
I really doubt folks who Post on Forums who claim that they have, or that they've actually seen this watch or that in person). But, come on! do a little original work.
He’s absolutely right: I have made an exceptional claim and exceptional claims require exceptional evidence:
So, here’s the photograph of Ian Fleming's own Rolex Explorer I on an expanding Rolex strap:
And another photograph including Ian Fleming’s signature:
Is this enough original work? Now, may we see your documentary evidence that he didn't own one? As you yourself say:
Quote:
I really doubt folks who Post on Forums who claim that they have, or that they've actually seen this watch or that in person
Funnily I feel the same way about documentation: your turn.
Finally, as Mr Deaton says:
Quote:
The guesswork on this question is about to definitively end. The original James Bond watch, brand, model, and more, will be named in the next WatchTime!
I look forward to comparing our theories…
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
Well, I called him slimey with respect to him trying to pawn off the gold Connery watch as the watch given by Broccoli to Connery for the production of Dr. No. I hadn't changed my mind about his charachter, however, I did think the article was well done. Too bad it was done by someone else.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
quote DD: "and one of the longest articles in its history"
that made me chuckle
And now time for the big story, you amateurs:
The watch of the theatrical James Bond is:
SEIKO!
I have been offered a golden Seiko watch, which has been the property of Cubby Broccoli.
It even had a personal engraving dedicated to Cubby.
I didn't buy it for some reason, but this with the prominent appearance sould be enough evidence:
SEIKO is it!
I have heard, that also Fleming wanted to mention Seiko in the novels but Seiko wanted to stay low-profile at this time.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Now that is funny. Here is the link to M4tt's original posts about the Rolex Explorer:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=203720&highlight=redux
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I thought it was in the Imperial War Museum as part of the Centinary exhibit.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
It is. And congratulations to Bondtoys who managed to squeeze in a coherent post. Pity he can't spell painting and still knows diddly squatt though :v
I would like to see a photo of the painting featuring IF's watch, it must be very detailed.
As for this quote "Fleming initially equipped Bond with the gun he owned...."
Sorry to be goofy enough to pipe in on this small detail, but Fleming only owned two pistols when he began writing Bond, a Browning/FN .25 and a Colt Offical Police - presented by General Donavan
of the OSS. Bond was initially armed with a Beretta .25 and a Colt Police Positive - all very different handguns.
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
Mr. Deaton has now proved to me twice that he is not beyond lying to make himself out a hero. I don't think you can trust a word he says, or rather, writes. What a sad little fellow.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
DG, I'm sure that the publication will be infuriated with this deception, as it has, and will, affect peoples views on the accuracy of their articles in future. And also how well edited and controlled those articles and the people, and qualifications of the people submitting them, are
I must admit that Dell Deaton is not looking at all good in this episode. Will you be attending his exhibition of Bond watches in 2010?
Oh yeah, everyone crack out their copies and check it out
Not if he has anything to do with it. Did you check out what it said at the end of the article:
"Dell Deaton is an expert on Ian Fleming and James Bond, founder of jamesbondwatches.com, and lead consultant to the NAWCC exhibit advisory group for its "Watches, James Bond Watches" display opening 2010."
What a bloody joke! He's a lead expert on being a w**ker! I may also have to write the NAWCC to set them straight about this charachter.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=203720&highlight=redux
It's the first, rather long post about the literary Bond's/Fleming's Rolex Oyster Perpetual.
At the end, M4tt comes to the conclusion that the Fleming/Bond watch was the:
The Rolex 6350 (Dress) (Proto) Explorer I (with a smooth gold bezel).
Because of the portrait of Fleming by Villers in the National Portrait Gallery depicting a gold bezel on Fleming's watch.
So the final Explorer that Fleming owned, the 1016, probably was not the Rolex Oyster Perpetual that Fleming was referring to in the Bond novels. Apparently the "proto Explorers" only had "Rolex Oyster Perpetual" on the dial, not Explorer.
So, Mr. Deaton did not tell the full, true story.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.