Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
edited February 2009
And courtesy of our Tex friend here is Villiers portrait of Fleming photographed from the LE OHMSS cover. You can clearly see the watch in all it's glory even on this small copy, so imagine the detail on the full size original.
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Of course, we still cannot guarantee that this was the watch Fleming had in mind when dressing Bond, but is the closest we are ever likely to get.
If you read post #13 on the above thread, he has an invitation for people to write in and discuss his article.
Here's your chance to chime in - no pun intended.
Unfortunately, I got banned from the Rolex Forums, so I can't respond. I believe Mr. Deaton cried to the moderators when I beat up on his gold watch theory once too often. The fact that I also outed one of their moderators for plagerism of my AJB article on the Bond Submariner made it easy to give me the old heave ho. But I have to let you know I went down fighting without ever submitting. To my knowledge the thieving moderator over there was never sanctioned either. Go figure.
The funny thing is, the Rolex Forums wanted to still keep my article in their Reference Library, even though they banned me. I made them aware of copyright law and international copyright law. My article was subsequntly removed and replaced with a hastily written replacement.
So, I hope one of you laddies will chime in for me about this slimy Mr. Deaton. at the Rolex Forums.
Hey, you can't make this stuff up.
DG
So, what sharp little eyes you've got...wait till you get to my teeth.
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
Not being a watch expert I find all this highly interesting. I love reading about the logic behind the Bond/Explorer connection.
If anyone has an example of the Fleming Explorer, would love to see additional photos!
I would have to agree. That's why when I read the Watchtime article, despite my personal feeling about Mr. Deaton, I had to at least give him credit.
However, now that it turns out that Deaton is taking the credit for someone else's hard work, that casts the whole thing in a different light.
Because of this, I'm giving my personal copy of Watchtime to someone else. I don't want it anymore. How do you think the poor guy (M4tt) who came up with the idea feels about Mr. Deaton?
DG
So, what sharp little eyes you've got...wait till you get to my teeth.
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
not being a member of both forums (Watchyouseek and TRF)myself, have you tried to get in touch with this M4tt?
At his place, I'd be furious and it's still a miracle to me, that noone commented about this on the Rolex Forum.
And on a sidenote: I know, that Dell is reading here, so, if all comments about him were false, I'd assume, that he would have commented on this in one of the other forums, or, he would have contacted me in person.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
The internet being so loosely policed is open ground for plagerism. If you lack conscience and charecter it's easy to cut and paste yourself a damn good article - with all the hard work done by someone else. You may never know when your smart words or nice picture end up making someone else alot of $$$$.
On the other hand those who disrespect others, are always found out, and it must shame them some to have to change screen names all the time, or lurk in silence while their misdeeds are discussed.
On a positive side, on AJB we have alot of honorable folks, whose charecter is evident even through the anonymous way in which we communicate!!!!
not being a member of both forums (Watchyouseek and TRF)myself, have you tried to get in touch with this M4tt?
At his place, I'd be furious and it's still a miracle to me, that noone commented about this on the Rolex Forum.
And on a sidenote: I know, that Dell is reading here, so, if all comments about him were false, I'd assume, that he would have commented on this in one of the other forums, or, he would have contacted me in person.
Yes, I tried to contact M4tt via PM over at WUS just last night. As of this morning, before I left the house, there was as yet no response. I'll check later.
DG
So, what sharp little eyes you've got...wait till you get to my teeth.
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
O.K. guys and gals, I got a response from M4tt. In fact I got two. Rather than summarize what he said about Deaton, I'd rather post it here verbatim. I am awaiting permission to do so from M4tt. All I can say is it is not good. It dovetails nicely with what my instincts have always told me about Mr. Deaton. Stay tuned.
DG
So, what sharp little eyes you've got...wait till you get to my teeth.
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
Rick contacted me over at WUS. Thanks for letting me know Rick.
Frankly, I don't know if Mr Deaton has in fact plagiarised me or not; I have not read his article. I'm in the UK, we don't get that here.
For me, the question of whether he has or has not is largely irrelevant. When I am writing stuff for the internet I am writing for pleasure and for the free exchange of knowledge. In this case, I'm neither much of a Bond or a Rolex expert and I was really enjoying the discussion.
My problem with Mr Deaton is that he killed this discussion dead. Initially he complained to anyone who would listen, including the moderators and the site owner, that I was in breach of copyright over my use of the 'Villiers' Image. Initially I agreed with him that using the whole image was probably pushing fair use, although this isn't clear as I was using it for an educational debate. I redacted the image to just the watch, which definitely falls within fair use. However, I was asked to remove all the images, due to ongoing threats and complaints effectively killing my argument. The resulting argument led to threadlock (and complete removal on another site)
Mr Deaton then wrote this blog entry which gives a flavour of his approach:
At the time I simply couldn't understand why. More to the point, as you can see, he slapped me down hard. Now, that's fine but what he didn't realise is that I bounce. So I went away and did some proper research, discussed the issue elsewhere (Cheers, TZ-UK) and came back to WUS with a significantly uprated argument. Funnily enough he hasn't responded to me since.
However, a few weeks ago, I was pointed at this blog entry and suddenly I realised what his real motivation was:
My theory was that he was working on this article and a month or more from the deadline, suddenly this nobody (that's me!) appears out of nowhere with an argument that offered a good suggestion as to the nature of Bond's literary watch based upon the watch that Fleming wore while writing OHMSS.
Now whether he stole this idea or whether he had it first, but crucially, published second. I don't know. It would be hard to prove either way. Certainly, Mr Deaton claims (repeatedly) on the Rolex forum that his research was wrapped up last May:
"(research was actually completed last May, to give you a perspective on lead-times)"
"because the core research for this was actually wrapped last May"
Which is odd, as kicking off a thread about a month ago he stated that:
"After wrapping up work for a publication deadline"
Now, I'm sure that a few people around here have been published and I just want to confirm that their experience is similar to mine: that the idea of completing research nine months before a deadline simply never happens; rather, there is a dialectic process of refining (or even rewriting if new evidence comes to light) that occurs right up to the deadline.
So right now I'm thinking:
Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230.
The bottom line is that I wrote what I wrote, I'm pretty proud of it. However, I don't think it is the definitive word. Please, if anyone can show how it could be better or write a better version I would be delighted. I guess that's the difference between Mr Deaton and I.
No problem, and thanks for chiming in. It will be easy enough to determine by approaching Watchtime directly as to who wrote what when. I suspect that you exploded his original premise for the article and then appropriated your idea. I'm not sure I would call it plagerism per se, however he is representing it as his discovery, which it appears is not accurate. The plagerism thing would have to be determined by a line by line analysis of both texts and by determining who wrote what when.
Nevertheless, Mr. Deaton's tactics appear to be the same all over. I'm quite certain he has spoken ill of me to several people here as well as in the watch collecting community and certainly over at the Rolex Forums, who for reasons of their own, were very receptive.
DG
So, what sharp little eyes you've got...wait till you get to my teeth.
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
As Yogi Berra would say, "It's deja vu all over again."
Success has many fathers. It's too bad when one person wants all the french fries in the bag and does not give credit where credit is due. Too bad Dell did not quote his sources. It's just common decency.
As Yogi Berra would say, "It's deja vu all over again."
Success has many fathers. It's too bad when one person wants all the french fries in the bag and does not give credit where credit is due. Too bad Dell did not quote his sources. It's just common decency.
8-)
I suppose so. I know when Deaton was here that's what he challenged me to do. I wonder, has anyone talked to him? Does he have an answer for all this? I mean it could be resolved very easily by him. I mean, he's no longer a member, but he can certainly get someone to chime in for him. I await a response.
DG
So, what sharp little eyes you've got...wait till you get to my teeth.
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
Seems he has gone to ground, hardly surprising as this kills what respect he ever had. I find the whole thing disgusting.
As this Forum has been so indulgent of what so far has only been one side, I hope that I'm correct in moving forward with the idea that what I may have to say on all this would be appropriate to share here as well. (In fairness, please know that I by no means interpret the loud voices of a passionate few as representative of everyone.)
That said, I'm going to continue my "catching up" on what's been Posted here and about so far. Then I'll weigh in, more or less w/ the intent of starting off w/ this Thread in order. We'll see how it goes from there.
Meantime, I'd be interested to know who here has actually read my WatchTime article on the Ian Fleming Rolex Explorer and the substantiation I provide there in support of it having served as the reference for the literary James Bond wristwatch.
Disclaimer. "James Bond" is a fictional character (sometimes I'll refer to "James Bond's watch" for shorthand, and have found that makes for a real sticking point among some readers who've responded in some other Forums: So I want to get that potential distraction out of the way up-front).
As this Forum has been so indulgent of what so far has only been one side, I hope that I'm correct in moving forward with the idea that what I may have to say on all this would be appropriate to share here as well. (In fairness, please know that I by no means interpret the loud voices of a passionate few as representative of everyone.)
That said, I'm going to continue my "catching up" on what's been Posted here and about so far. Then I'll weigh in, more or less w/ the intent of starting off w/ this Thread in order. We'll see how it goes from there.
Meantime, I'd be interested to know who here has actually read my WatchTime article on the Ian Fleming Rolex Explorer and the substantiation I provide there in support of it having served as the reference for the literary James Bond wristwatch.
Disclaimer. "James Bond" is a fictional character (sometimes I'll refer to "James Bond's watch" for shorthand, and have found that makes for a real sticking point among some readers who've responded in some other Forums: So I want to get that potential distraction out of the way up-front).
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Hello Dell,
good to see you back.
I have quoted your post here just to make sure, that it stays, should you decide again to leave the forum and delete all your posts and I recommend everybody to do the same with following posts of yours.
I think, that noone here on the forum has a problem with other points of view so, it would be good to hear your opinion about all this.
Please keep in mind, that some people here had some bad experiences in the past with you and from what I read about your fights with M4tt on TRF, it seems to me, that discussions with you tend to get very emotionally.
I know, that at least DG did read your article as he was kind enough to offer me to send his magazine and I'll give my opinion about this a bit later.
I'd also like to ask M4tt to provide us with a link of the mentioned heated discussion with yourself to actually see, what has happened there.
"Mr Deaton, I am gratified to see that you now appear to be convinced by the argument I presented a couple of months ago.
Deaton's Quote:
He should wear a current Rolex Explorer at least once as acknowledgment of the Ian Fleming choice.
However, I am, frankly surprised, as, when I asserted that Fleming owned an Explorer I, you stated that:
Deaton's Quote:
Oh, yeah: Your statement regarding the positive ID on the watch. You're wrong on that. I have copies of the Rolex paperwork w/ the actual information.
I have to confess, I'm still waiting to see this paperwork.
DG, was the other party involved M4tt, or someone else?
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
... article by Dell Deaton in the February issue of WatchTime magazine.... Here's some bullet points of what I can recall:
1) Fleming actually is on record saying that Bond would have chosen cheap but dependable watches for most of his missions.
2) At the urging of a reader, he used a Rolex Oyster Perpetual because of it's waterproof nature....
Correct. Let me address both of these points together, as they are related.
As I wrote in my WatchTime article, a fan wrote to Ian Fleming on April 25, 1958, to complain about James Bond's watch having stopped in Doctor No. I have a complete copy of that original letter, by B.W. Goodden of London, which was given to me, along with Fleming's June 5, 1958, reply, directly from the Ian Fleming Will Trust. Insofar as I know, the original Gooden letter has never been published.* Fleming's response, however, is available for review in a wonderful book titled, James Bond: The Man and His World,** by Henry Chancellor.
An earlier draft that I'd submitted to WatchTime included some feedback I personal had to the Doctor No stopped-watch criticism. For those of you who've read the book, 007 has just finished a fight w/ one of the henchmen where Bond's wrist is almost broken (Chapter 10, "Dragon Spoor"). That seemed to me to be at least a reasonable answer to why his watch had stopped; hardly a reason to criticize the watch, or, as Goodden advocated, start an official inquiry.
This was on my mind when I created a Poll for TimeZone on May 26, 2008. LINK This started off with: "In future movies, the James Bond character should wear ...," and I gave a choice of "... a cheap, dependable watch (since 'James Bond' so frequently loses and destroys his equipment)."
It was the only option to get zero votes.
On the second page of the Goodden letter, a "Rolex Oyster Perpetual" is described as "completely waterproof," and he goes on to say that it keeps time "even better after immersion...."
__________________
*If someone else here knows otherwise, by all means say so now: It would add to this discussion.
**Part of primary research necessarily means reviewing some things and dismissing them. That said, in the interests of full disclosure, the Chancellor book does on page 68 include a photograph of a Rolex watch next to Fleming's letter to Goodden. Among other things, it is not a Rolex Explorer 1016 and it is on a brown leather strap.
As this Forum has been so indulgent of what so far has only been one side, I hope that I'm correct in moving forward with the idea that what I may have to say on all this would be appropriate to share here as well. (In fairness, please know that I by no means interpret the loud voices of a passionate few as representative of everyone.)
That said, I'm going to continue my "catching up" on what's been Posted here and about so far. Then I'll weigh in, more or less w/ the intent of starting off w/ this Thread in order. We'll see how it goes from there.
Meantime, I'd be interested to know who here has actually read my WatchTime article on the Ian Fleming Rolex Explorer and the substantiation I provide there in support of it having served as the reference for the literary James Bond wristwatch.
Disclaimer. "James Bond" is a fictional character (sometimes I'll refer to "James Bond's watch" for shorthand, and have found that makes for a real sticking point among some readers who've responded in some other Forums: So I want to get that potential distraction out of the way up-front).
-{
I read your article. I also read what M4tt posted over at WUS. What he wrote pre-dates what you wrote. As for a line by line analysis, I promise you, it will get done. So, I put it to you, did you appropriate M4tt's information on the Rolex Explorer or not? I'm sure M4tt will be watching this thread as well. Have at it!
DG
So, what sharp little eyes you've got...wait till you get to my teeth.
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
... 3) Fleming himself wore many watches but the only one to have survived him was his Rolex Explorer which he began to wear after Hillary climbed Mt. Everest in 1953. The watch he mentions with the large phosphorous numerals is the Rolex Explorer. Although this is the case he still gave a nod to his reader by referring to it as an Oyster Perpetual....
Although there is nothing that readily strikes me as incorrect here, I'd just like to make a clarification. Ian Fleming did not start to wear a Rolex Explorer until almost a decade after the Everest climb.
This gives the background. There are several other threads referenced, including the one in which Mr Deaton, while complaining behind the scenes to both the moderators and the site owner, attempts to refute my argument and then disappears.
I will be interested to see how he now responds having repeatedly refusing to engage for the last three months.
... 3) Fleming himself wore many watches but the only one to have survived him was his Rolex Explorer which he began to wear after Hillary climbed Mt. Everest in 1953. The watch he mentions with the large phosphorous numerals is the Rolex Explorer. Although this is the case he still gave a nod to his reader by referring to it as an Oyster Perpetual....
Although there is nothing that readily strikes me as incorrect here, I'd just like to make a clarification. Ian Fleming did not start to wear a Rolex Explorer until almost a decade after the Everest climb.
No answer to direct questioning. Boy have I seen this before!
DG
So, what sharp little eyes you've got...wait till you get to my teeth.
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
"Although there is nothing that readily strikes me as incorrect here, I'd just like to make a clarification. Ian Fleming did not start to wear a Rolex Explorer until almost a decade after the Everest climb."
I'm afraid that this claim merely shows that you are blinded by your own evidence. The watch that remains in Mr Fleming's estate is, without doubt a 36mm Rolex 1016.
This cannot be the Rolex Explorer that was on Fleming's wrist in the Villier's picture of 1962.
There are two clear reasons for this:
1) The Explorer in the 1962 painting is clearly a 34mm watch while the 1016 was a 36mm watch
2) the 1016 was not launched at Basle until April 1963.
As I have pointed out elsewhere, the evidence would appear to suggest that FLeming had at least two Explorers. I think he liked them.
Obviously your 'top secret documentation' will prove this all wrong. You did say three months ago that you would be able to produce it in a couple of months. Well...
... 4) Of course we all know that the Rolex Submariner that was used by Connery was in fact Cubby Broccoli's watch. That seems to be the only reason for that particular Rolex being used. But the Rolex that is described is definitely the Explorer....
The reference to Mr. Broccoli's watch that you make here is not in my WatchTime article, just to be clear (and you do not say that it was, of course). So as not to go too far from the topic, I'll simply say that I am not one of those who is convinced of that origin. If you're interested in what I've written on this, here's a link to my Blog. LINK
Notwithstanding, consider some of the general arguments about the EON Productions watch that Sean Connery wore in Dr. No and the so-called Ian Fleming agreement with that.
Fleming was on the set in Jamaica when the first scenes of that movie were filmed; he, himself, was writing On Her Majesty's Secret Service at Goldeneye. He continued revising that book, and we know from a wristwatch reference correction he made on page 154 of the Uncorrected Proof that he was revising the text until right up until publication.
Why, then, is the Bond watch of worn on a bracelet, when the Bond watch worn by Connery in Dr. No is worn on a strap? Is there some argument that the Bond watch worn by Connery in Dr. No has numerals, as it does in On Her Majesty's Secret Service?
So, yeah, you've got me right here: Some kind of difference, if not pushback, from Fleming against having the 007 watch defined by the film production.
***
There don't seem to be any other questions or areas where I think clarification would be in order here. But, if someone feels otherwise, let me know.
Don't see anything in your Post here, Rick, that seems to call out for a response from me. But I'm confident you'll point something out if it's there.
I'll ask you again. Did you appropriate the information that M4tt discovered about the literary Bond's Rolex and pass it off as your own for your Watchtime article? It's a simple question.
DG
So, what sharp little eyes you've got...wait till you get to my teeth.
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
Notwithstanding, consider some of the general arguments about the EON Productions watch that Sean Connery wore in Dr. No and the so-called Ian Fleming agreement with that.
Fleming was on the set in Jamaica when the first scenes of that movie were filmed; he, himself, was writing On Her Majesty's Secret Service at Goldeneye. He continued revising that book, and we know from a wristwatch reference correction he made on page 154 of the Uncorrected Proof that he was revising the text until right up until publication.
Why, then, is the Bond watch of worn on a bracelet, when the Bond watch worn by Connery in Dr. No is worn on a strap? Is there some argument that the Bond watch worn by Connery in Dr. No has numerals, as it does in On Her Majesty's Secret Service?
So, yeah, you've got me right here: Some kind of difference, if not pushback, from Fleming against having the 007 watch defined by the film production.
.
So Dell, if I understand you correctly, your theory is, that IF would have fought against inaccuracies to his literaric James Bond:
As he wore a Submariner in Jamaica, he would have insited on the Explorer?
Well, if you were correct on this, this would logically mean, that the literaric Rolex was a Submariner, but I can see noone mentioning that seriously.
I think, that the first scenes from Dr. No where the airport scenes and I can't clearly see a Submariner there. I can see a Submariner in the mangrove scenes.
Of, if IF has been there on the mangrove locations, why didn't he insist for the movie-007 wearing sea-island cotton short-sleeve shirts instead of simple Polo shirts (Lacoste probably??) for the same reasons?
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Comments
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Of course, we still cannot guarantee that this was the watch Fleming had in mind when dressing Bond, but is the closest we are ever likely to get.
here is a link from DGs article, which may have a slightly larger image:
http://picasaweb.google.com/charlesvilliers/IANFLEMINGPORTRAITBYAMHERSTVILLIERS#5189873318949900418
As I said: definitely Seiko!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=63680
If you read post #13 on the above thread, he has an invitation for people to write in and discuss his article.
Here's your chance to chime in - no pun intended.
Unfortunately, I got banned from the Rolex Forums, so I can't respond. I believe Mr. Deaton cried to the moderators when I beat up on his gold watch theory once too often. The fact that I also outed one of their moderators for plagerism of my AJB article on the Bond Submariner made it easy to give me the old heave ho. But I have to let you know I went down fighting without ever submitting. To my knowledge the thieving moderator over there was never sanctioned either. Go figure.
The funny thing is, the Rolex Forums wanted to still keep my article in their Reference Library, even though they banned me. I made them aware of copyright law and international copyright law. My article was subsequntly removed and replaced with a hastily written replacement.
So, I hope one of you laddies will chime in for me about this slimy Mr. Deaton. at the Rolex Forums.
Hey, you can't make this stuff up.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
You and your damned Seiko's X-(
If anyone has an example of the Fleming Explorer, would love to see additional photos!
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
I would have to agree. That's why when I read the Watchtime article, despite my personal feeling about Mr. Deaton, I had to at least give him credit.
However, now that it turns out that Deaton is taking the credit for someone else's hard work, that casts the whole thing in a different light.
Because of this, I'm giving my personal copy of Watchtime to someone else. I don't want it anymore. How do you think the poor guy (M4tt) who came up with the idea feels about Mr. Deaton?
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
not being a member of both forums (Watchyouseek and TRF)myself, have you tried to get in touch with this M4tt?
At his place, I'd be furious and it's still a miracle to me, that noone commented about this on the Rolex Forum.
And on a sidenote: I know, that Dell is reading here, so, if all comments about him were false, I'd assume, that he would have commented on this in one of the other forums, or, he would have contacted me in person.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
On the other hand those who disrespect others, are always found out, and it must shame them some to have to change screen names all the time, or lurk in silence while their misdeeds are discussed.
On a positive side, on AJB we have alot of honorable folks, whose charecter is evident even through the anonymous way in which we communicate!!!!
{[]
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
Yes, I tried to contact M4tt via PM over at WUS just last night. As of this morning, before I left the house, there was as yet no response. I'll check later.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
Rick contacted me over at WUS. Thanks for letting me know Rick.
Frankly, I don't know if Mr Deaton has in fact plagiarised me or not; I have not read his article. I'm in the UK, we don't get that here.
For me, the question of whether he has or has not is largely irrelevant. When I am writing stuff for the internet I am writing for pleasure and for the free exchange of knowledge. In this case, I'm neither much of a Bond or a Rolex expert and I was really enjoying the discussion.
My problem with Mr Deaton is that he killed this discussion dead. Initially he complained to anyone who would listen, including the moderators and the site owner, that I was in breach of copyright over my use of the 'Villiers' Image. Initially I agreed with him that using the whole image was probably pushing fair use, although this isn't clear as I was using it for an educational debate. I redacted the image to just the watch, which definitely falls within fair use. However, I was asked to remove all the images, due to ongoing threats and complaints effectively killing my argument. The resulting argument led to threadlock (and complete removal on another site)
Mr Deaton then wrote this blog entry which gives a flavour of his approach:
http://www.jamesbondwatches.com/copyright-infringement_20081117.htm
At the time I simply couldn't understand why. More to the point, as you can see, he slapped me down hard. Now, that's fine but what he didn't realise is that I bounce. So I went away and did some proper research, discussed the issue elsewhere (Cheers, TZ-UK) and came back to WUS with a significantly uprated argument. Funnily enough he hasn't responded to me since.
However, a few weeks ago, I was pointed at this blog entry and suddenly I realised what his real motivation was:
http://jamesbondwatches.blogspot.com/2008/12/watchtime-magazine-to-positively-id-ian.html
I hope you all enjoy the irony!
My theory was that he was working on this article and a month or more from the deadline, suddenly this nobody (that's me!) appears out of nowhere with an argument that offered a good suggestion as to the nature of Bond's literary watch based upon the watch that Fleming wore while writing OHMSS.
Now whether he stole this idea or whether he had it first, but crucially, published second. I don't know. It would be hard to prove either way. Certainly, Mr Deaton claims (repeatedly) on the Rolex forum that his research was wrapped up last May:
"(research was actually completed last May, to give you a perspective on lead-times)"
"because the core research for this was actually wrapped last May"
Which is odd, as kicking off a thread about a month ago he stated that:
"After wrapping up work for a publication deadline"
Now, I'm sure that a few people around here have been published and I just want to confirm that their experience is similar to mine: that the idea of completing research nine months before a deadline simply never happens; rather, there is a dialectic process of refining (or even rewriting if new evidence comes to light) that occurs right up to the deadline.
So right now I'm thinking:
Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230.
The bottom line is that I wrote what I wrote, I'm pretty proud of it. However, I don't think it is the definitive word. Please, if anyone can show how it could be better or write a better version I would be delighted. I guess that's the difference between Mr Deaton and I.
Oh, and Hi everyone, nice site!
I crossposted. Feel free to post my PM if you still feel it is relevant.
No problem, and thanks for chiming in. It will be easy enough to determine by approaching Watchtime directly as to who wrote what when. I suspect that you exploded his original premise for the article and then appropriated your idea. I'm not sure I would call it plagerism per se, however he is representing it as his discovery, which it appears is not accurate. The plagerism thing would have to be determined by a line by line analysis of both texts and by determining who wrote what when.
Nevertheless, Mr. Deaton's tactics appear to be the same all over. I'm quite certain he has spoken ill of me to several people here as well as in the watch collecting community and certainly over at the Rolex Forums, who for reasons of their own, were very receptive.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
As Yogi Berra would say, "It's deja vu all over again."
Success has many fathers. It's too bad when one person wants all the french fries in the bag and does not give credit where credit is due. Too bad Dell did not quote his sources. It's just common decency.
8-)
I suppose so. I know when Deaton was here that's what he challenged me to do. I wonder, has anyone talked to him? Does he have an answer for all this? I mean it could be resolved very easily by him. I mean, he's no longer a member, but he can certainly get someone to chime in for him. I await a response.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
As this Forum has been so indulgent of what so far has only been one side, I hope that I'm correct in moving forward with the idea that what I may have to say on all this would be appropriate to share here as well. (In fairness, please know that I by no means interpret the loud voices of a passionate few as representative of everyone.)
That said, I'm going to continue my "catching up" on what's been Posted here and about so far. Then I'll weigh in, more or less w/ the intent of starting off w/ this Thread in order. We'll see how it goes from there.
Meantime, I'd be interested to know who here has actually read my WatchTime article on the Ian Fleming Rolex Explorer and the substantiation I provide there in support of it having served as the reference for the literary James Bond wristwatch.
Disclaimer. "James Bond" is a fictional character (sometimes I'll refer to "James Bond's watch" for shorthand, and have found that makes for a real sticking point among some readers who've responded in some other Forums: So I want to get that potential distraction out of the way up-front).
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Hello Dell,
good to see you back.
I have quoted your post here just to make sure, that it stays, should you decide again to leave the forum and delete all your posts
I think, that noone here on the forum has a problem with other points of view so, it would be good to hear your opinion about all this.
Please keep in mind, that some people here had some bad experiences in the past with you and from what I read about your fights with M4tt on TRF, it seems to me, that discussions with you tend to get very emotionally.
I know, that at least DG did read your article as he was kind enough to offer me to send his magazine and I'll give my opinion about this a bit later.
I'd also like to ask M4tt to provide us with a link of the mentioned heated discussion with yourself to actually see, what has happened there.
DG, was the other party involved M4tt, or someone else?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Correct. Let me address both of these points together, as they are related.
As I wrote in my WatchTime article, a fan wrote to Ian Fleming on April 25, 1958, to complain about James Bond's watch having stopped in Doctor No. I have a complete copy of that original letter, by B.W. Goodden of London, which was given to me, along with Fleming's June 5, 1958, reply, directly from the Ian Fleming Will Trust. Insofar as I know, the original Gooden letter has never been published.* Fleming's response, however, is available for review in a wonderful book titled, James Bond: The Man and His World,** by Henry Chancellor.
An earlier draft that I'd submitted to WatchTime included some feedback I personal had to the Doctor No stopped-watch criticism. For those of you who've read the book, 007 has just finished a fight w/ one of the henchmen where Bond's wrist is almost broken (Chapter 10, "Dragon Spoor"). That seemed to me to be at least a reasonable answer to why his watch had stopped; hardly a reason to criticize the watch, or, as Goodden advocated, start an official inquiry.
This was on my mind when I created a Poll for TimeZone on May 26, 2008. LINK This started off with: "In future movies, the James Bond character should wear ...," and I gave a choice of "... a cheap, dependable watch (since 'James Bond' so frequently loses and destroys his equipment)."
It was the only option to get zero votes.
On the second page of the Goodden letter, a "Rolex Oyster Perpetual" is described as "completely waterproof," and he goes on to say that it keeps time "even better after immersion...."
__________________
*If someone else here knows otherwise, by all means say so now: It would add to this discussion.
**Part of primary research necessarily means reviewing some things and dismissing them. That said, in the interests of full disclosure, the Chancellor book does on page 68 include a photograph of a Rolex watch next to Fleming's letter to Goodden. Among other things, it is not a Rolex Explorer 1016 and it is on a brown leather strap.
I read your article. I also read what M4tt posted over at WUS. What he wrote pre-dates what you wrote. As for a line by line analysis, I promise you, it will get done. So, I put it to you, did you appropriate M4tt's information on the Rolex Explorer or not? I'm sure M4tt will be watching this thread as well. Have at it!
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
Although there is nothing that readily strikes me as incorrect here, I'd just like to make a clarification. Ian Fleming did not start to wear a Rolex Explorer until almost a decade after the Everest climb.
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=222506&highlight=bond
This gives the background. There are several other threads referenced, including the one in which Mr Deaton, while complaining behind the scenes to both the moderators and the site owner, attempts to refute my argument and then disappears.
I will be interested to see how he now responds having repeatedly refusing to engage for the last three months.
No answer to direct questioning. Boy have I seen this before!
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
I'm afraid that this claim merely shows that you are blinded by your own evidence. The watch that remains in Mr Fleming's estate is, without doubt a 36mm Rolex 1016.
This cannot be the Rolex Explorer that was on Fleming's wrist in the Villier's picture of 1962.
There are two clear reasons for this:
1) The Explorer in the 1962 painting is clearly a 34mm watch while the 1016 was a 36mm watch
2) the 1016 was not launched at Basle until April 1963.
As I have pointed out elsewhere, the evidence would appear to suggest that FLeming had at least two Explorers. I think he liked them.
Obviously your 'top secret documentation' will prove this all wrong. You did say three months ago that you would be able to produce it in a couple of months. Well...
The reference to Mr. Broccoli's watch that you make here is not in my WatchTime article, just to be clear (and you do not say that it was, of course). So as not to go too far from the topic, I'll simply say that I am not one of those who is convinced of that origin. If you're interested in what I've written on this, here's a link to my Blog. LINK
Notwithstanding, consider some of the general arguments about the EON Productions watch that Sean Connery wore in Dr. No and the so-called Ian Fleming agreement with that.
Fleming was on the set in Jamaica when the first scenes of that movie were filmed; he, himself, was writing On Her Majesty's Secret Service at Goldeneye. He continued revising that book, and we know from a wristwatch reference correction he made on page 154 of the Uncorrected Proof that he was revising the text until right up until publication.
Why, then, is the Bond watch of worn on a bracelet, when the Bond watch worn by Connery in Dr. No is worn on a strap? Is there some argument that the Bond watch worn by Connery in Dr. No has numerals, as it does in On Her Majesty's Secret Service?
So, yeah, you've got me right here: Some kind of difference, if not pushback, from Fleming against having the 007 watch defined by the film production.
***
There don't seem to be any other questions or areas where I think clarification would be in order here. But, if someone feels otherwise, let me know.
Don't see anything in your Post here, Rick, that seems to call out for a response from me. But I'm confident you'll point something out if it's there.
I'll ask you again. Did you appropriate the information that M4tt discovered about the literary Bond's Rolex and pass it off as your own for your Watchtime article? It's a simple question.
DG
"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Richard Grenier after George Orwell, Washington Times 1993.
So Dell, if I understand you correctly, your theory is, that IF would have fought against inaccuracies to his literaric James Bond:
As he wore a Submariner in Jamaica, he would have insited on the Explorer?
Well, if you were correct on this, this would logically mean, that the literaric Rolex was a Submariner, but I can see noone mentioning that seriously.
I think, that the first scenes from Dr. No where the airport scenes and I can't clearly see a Submariner there. I can see a Submariner in the mangrove scenes.
Of, if IF has been there on the mangrove locations, why didn't he insist for the movie-007 wearing sea-island cotton short-sleeve shirts instead of simple Polo shirts (Lacoste probably??) for the same reasons?
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!