Need Help with OHMSS and more ?s 4 the experts-long post so please have time
JDubya
Florida USAPosts: 9MI6 Agent
Im sure we all thought we were the each perhaps the #1 James Bond fan in the world at one point or another until we discovered each other online. I sure did and I only loved the Connery-Lazenby film(s) when I was a kid and since then Ive kinda lost interest as Ive always thought of Moore as my favorite and during the Dalton-Brosnan-Craig era they easily grew on me as I truly love the James Bond series. I havent logged on here for a few years - sorry mates but since this economy has forced me to part time work Ive had several marathons and I have some questions I hope you can help me with.
Surely we all agree that the best james bond fan is one of many who simply have a passion and affection for the films and individuals whether or not we hold all the trivial or external info. I still have immense respect for members TeeHee and The Cat (are you guys still on here) for their vast knowledge and passion for Bond et al.
Dont get me wrong - I have seen each EON film no less than 10 times except OHMSS and heres why.
I have a list of theoretical and factual questions Id love opinions or facts on but let me tell you the "why" on OHMSS I have issues I brought up -
I rented it and the spoof Casino Royale when I was young and watching them all for the first time after falling in love with AVATAK (ironically moore's least fave, and his fave FYEO was my least fave of his lol). (Im 31 only)
I hated the Casino Royale spoof except for the catchy tune and since OHMSS was unique in its 1 time Bond, its Blofeld I had recognized only from infomercials - and had not seen YOLT but HAD seen DAF and knew Gray as Blofeld so I didnt know it was a Blofeld trilogy, I pretty much wrote off OHMSS just as I did the spoofed CR and of the 5 times Ive watched it, 4 were in the past year, 1 was 20 years ago or so. At the beginning of FYEO I had no recollection of Teresa Bond as I actually dont think I paid much attention when I did watch OHMSS so long ago - yet now Im loving it as a treasure but wanna chat and inquire.
As I watch OHMSS for the 6th time I want to ask a few things as well as some things about the McClory situation.
1. I thought it was Thunderball that he won a suit for creating a "source script" (which was gutted anyway) yet seems to own Blofeld rights? How and why? SPECTRE as well? SPECTRE was around since Dr. No and even though Thunderball was supposed to be first how did he get a stranglehold on the early foundations of the enemy?
2. How and why could Bond and Blofeld sit face to face and even pretend to play along with the Hillary Bray situation? Sure, different actors but what would make a budding young Bond enterprise purport to attempt continuity and have such an implausible meeting exist post-YOLT ?
3. I owned most of the books and many involved SMERSH - basically only ever referenced in TLD as Smient Spionum - was there really a problem cause the organization existed? MI6 and KGB and CIA have been in every film - SMERSH was in many books - another McClory-like stunt?
4. How long did it take Lazenby to fire his agent or did he quit bond for another reason or was he fired?
5. This was a very profitable film - does anyone know why they paid Connery sooo much for DAF yet wouldnt cough it up for him in OHMSS? I know Laz decided to quit (on bad advice?) and they needed a Bond, Connery was done, Moore was done with the Saint i beleive and I gues I just never got a straight answer as to why Laz was ever in the series at all. Any professional opinions of the choice for Bond in OHMSS given the before and after being so unsupportive of this choice? Which leads to my next question...... (but i must add I was very happy when I learned Fleming himself wanted Moore from the start as I remind you all hes my favorite - and if my facts are wrong and he was still committed during OHMSS im sorry but if I am correct WHO was so against him?)
6. The 2 main songs in OHMSS are among my favorite songs of all music. I cant find a reason for the intro song being instrumental and noone being able to put the words OHMSS in WHY?
(I guess Octopussy had a potential censorship excuse and Dr. No was perfect in hindsight - first film and just the bond theme seems kinda appropo, eh?
I am still not including the new CR and QOS for this question as I have one about itself for the last)
7. I know we are all sad that Fleming died so early in the series because surely he wanted somewhat of an epic length saga - the tv series never happened and there are hints of continuity from DN to DAD (Im still digesting the new CR and QOS) but seriously - how many of you feel that our favorite movie series (not like there are many) was more profit driven instead of a portrayal of a fictional legend's amazing career?
8. Finally I want some opinions and votes if you like - this is multipart
QoS and CR kinda went together story wise (flemings epic intent?) and some say that the bond series has been "rebooted" with CR
You guys want a constant epic from now on?
You want to have them start remaking all the old ones in order? All or stop at a certain point?
And of course - anyone have any idea what the next one will be? Will it be fleming material? Anyone hear a title?
I dont have an opinion here - remakes or constant epic or even completely seperate is fine with me - they are all gold to me.
Thanks for reading friends - I am truly anxious to hear what you think on one or all of my quandries.
Surely we all agree that the best james bond fan is one of many who simply have a passion and affection for the films and individuals whether or not we hold all the trivial or external info. I still have immense respect for members TeeHee and The Cat (are you guys still on here) for their vast knowledge and passion for Bond et al.
Dont get me wrong - I have seen each EON film no less than 10 times except OHMSS and heres why.
I have a list of theoretical and factual questions Id love opinions or facts on but let me tell you the "why" on OHMSS I have issues I brought up -
I rented it and the spoof Casino Royale when I was young and watching them all for the first time after falling in love with AVATAK (ironically moore's least fave, and his fave FYEO was my least fave of his lol). (Im 31 only)
I hated the Casino Royale spoof except for the catchy tune and since OHMSS was unique in its 1 time Bond, its Blofeld I had recognized only from infomercials - and had not seen YOLT but HAD seen DAF and knew Gray as Blofeld so I didnt know it was a Blofeld trilogy, I pretty much wrote off OHMSS just as I did the spoofed CR and of the 5 times Ive watched it, 4 were in the past year, 1 was 20 years ago or so. At the beginning of FYEO I had no recollection of Teresa Bond as I actually dont think I paid much attention when I did watch OHMSS so long ago - yet now Im loving it as a treasure but wanna chat and inquire.
As I watch OHMSS for the 6th time I want to ask a few things as well as some things about the McClory situation.
1. I thought it was Thunderball that he won a suit for creating a "source script" (which was gutted anyway) yet seems to own Blofeld rights? How and why? SPECTRE as well? SPECTRE was around since Dr. No and even though Thunderball was supposed to be first how did he get a stranglehold on the early foundations of the enemy?
2. How and why could Bond and Blofeld sit face to face and even pretend to play along with the Hillary Bray situation? Sure, different actors but what would make a budding young Bond enterprise purport to attempt continuity and have such an implausible meeting exist post-YOLT ?
3. I owned most of the books and many involved SMERSH - basically only ever referenced in TLD as Smient Spionum - was there really a problem cause the organization existed? MI6 and KGB and CIA have been in every film - SMERSH was in many books - another McClory-like stunt?
4. How long did it take Lazenby to fire his agent or did he quit bond for another reason or was he fired?
5. This was a very profitable film - does anyone know why they paid Connery sooo much for DAF yet wouldnt cough it up for him in OHMSS? I know Laz decided to quit (on bad advice?) and they needed a Bond, Connery was done, Moore was done with the Saint i beleive and I gues I just never got a straight answer as to why Laz was ever in the series at all. Any professional opinions of the choice for Bond in OHMSS given the before and after being so unsupportive of this choice? Which leads to my next question...... (but i must add I was very happy when I learned Fleming himself wanted Moore from the start as I remind you all hes my favorite - and if my facts are wrong and he was still committed during OHMSS im sorry but if I am correct WHO was so against him?)
6. The 2 main songs in OHMSS are among my favorite songs of all music. I cant find a reason for the intro song being instrumental and noone being able to put the words OHMSS in WHY?
(I guess Octopussy had a potential censorship excuse and Dr. No was perfect in hindsight - first film and just the bond theme seems kinda appropo, eh?
I am still not including the new CR and QOS for this question as I have one about itself for the last)
7. I know we are all sad that Fleming died so early in the series because surely he wanted somewhat of an epic length saga - the tv series never happened and there are hints of continuity from DN to DAD (Im still digesting the new CR and QOS) but seriously - how many of you feel that our favorite movie series (not like there are many) was more profit driven instead of a portrayal of a fictional legend's amazing career?
8. Finally I want some opinions and votes if you like - this is multipart
QoS and CR kinda went together story wise (flemings epic intent?) and some say that the bond series has been "rebooted" with CR
You guys want a constant epic from now on?
You want to have them start remaking all the old ones in order? All or stop at a certain point?
And of course - anyone have any idea what the next one will be? Will it be fleming material? Anyone hear a title?
I dont have an opinion here - remakes or constant epic or even completely seperate is fine with me - they are all gold to me.
Thanks for reading friends - I am truly anxious to hear what you think on one or all of my quandries.
Comments
I agree with your points there, I do think that each of the actors brought something new to the role and each had there downfalls. I am currently Re-watching all the Bond films (In no order). But each time I watch them I find something new in them and I keep wondering why I didn't like it first time. I am now coming to appreciate the Bond films more now.
In the novel line up OHMSS came first, it was Bonds first meeting with Blofeld. Non Bond fans continously ask this. The script writers didn't change a few things in the dialogue to make it different. Was this intentually ? To keep it as Flemings way ?
He quit the role before the film was even premiered. His agent gave him bad advice saying that the Bond films were old fashioned and he will get better roles that this in his career. Which is a shame really X-(
Casino Royale was the 1st Book, the script writers changed and added a few things in it to make it more enjoyable for the audience. However Quantum Of Solace is short story in the For Your Eyes Only anthology. The plotline to which I know is not the same as the film, over than the love and finding Solace in yourself.
We currently have no word on the material sense yet. But Daniel Craig and Wilson have hinted that it won't be part of the Trilogy and it will be something different. No title is yet announced. But there is not many Fleming titles left.
• Hillebrand Rariety
• Risico
• The Property of a Lady
• 007 in New York
They could go on to the Non Fleming novels (Gardner, Benson, Amis, Faulks) ?
and i explained why i wasnt a fan of OHMSS till the last year - it seemed as much a spoof as Casino to me as I was a kid - besides James Bond films I am completely prejudiced against ANY pre-1980 movie - I cant name 1 ive enjoyed or even 2 ive seen - so I guess it was more easy for me to simply write of OHMSS long ago - and no i havent seen the CR spoof since the 80s either...
bondaholic perhaps you could look at your answer for #2 as you claim fleming allegiance and examine my thoughts on question 7 -
I realize the movie release order has nothing to do with publishing order and in many many cases some movies have just a shadow of a fleming novel in them - the short stories are used sometimes for titles only or for scenes only - like my fave AVATAK the fixed horse racing was just a facet of a villian who already did his damage with creation and exploitation of zorin and yet the fixed races are maybe one of the few if more than 1? tie to fleming. We all know his death in the early 60s either made bond or made bond - it was the path presented to the public I focus on with my discussion here. The movies. I even read some Gardner and he seemed to follow a formula while I can say I havent read every Bond novel I owned post-production - nor the short stories or other fleming works when I grew up but I know compared to Fleming the 23-24? official storylines, released to the masses as our hero
(heroes need large audiences not a few geeks like us folk)
in perhaps something which would contradict Flemings every intent, 50/50 partnership concessions or not, or giving allhis pen for a truck of gold and watching something that doesnt let your answer about the 2nd chronological bond/blofeld encounter be either justified - or be an invalid question based on fan status.
All said, I MUST respect Albert and Barbara, and till TMWTGG (sorry elephants), Mr. Saltzman for honoring Fleming in as many ways possible (esp film 20 dad tributing all previous eon films) yet DOING HIS or her JOB and putting on the screen something the MASSES KEPT ALIVE FOR US ENTHUSIASTS. (A little TND opening sequence quote combined with a truth as strong as something that could make Chernobyl look like picnic - the fact that the fans brought us closing in on a half a century of a movie series!
Its the cameos and past tributes and inside jokes that created us enthusiasts - I just overlooked OHMSS and am still not satisfied with the Blofeld situation. I could care less if Gray helped Connery on the trail to ESB only later to play ESB against Connery - if I was a teenager then Id have lost faith and might agree with Laz's agent BUT FFS OHMSS must have some kind of legal, writers guild strike, production or other secret or an interpretation beyond novel timeline cause again - broccoli and s-man couldnt as a matter of simple logic puzzle viewers - i mean maybe if bond had plastic surgery (was plausible in TB) its just that not even in our view of Blofelds private comm did he have suspicions - he would have treated hillary bray the same till his righteous unmasking -
It was a film 2 years after ESB and Bond met eye to eye - but thats whats so great - i am very interested in this situation and to what length the rationale was considered - but the greatness of bond can survive that and even the quick disposal of ESB in pre credit FYEO since I discovered that McClory managed to get hold of SPECTRE and ESB and from what I read here he really pulled a Microsoft vs Novell on this Judge!
http://www.universalexports.net/00Sony.shtml
Dunno about legal rights. McClory's court action regards Spectre probably kicked in in the early 1970s, it only clarified later. For instance, when they tried to use Spectre for TSWLM, McClory got on the case and they changed the organisation.
Smersh got dumped because the Cold War was less intense and they were trying to be nice to the Russians and make the films more escapist. Yes, the KGB featured but in later movies.
No way was Connery gonna do another Bond after YOLT. He was sick to death of the series and money wasn't an issue. They wooed him back after OHMSS because he was a sure thing commerically.
Roger Moore 1927-2017
Initially,Fleming,McClory and Whittingham planned to make a James Bond film--this was in 1959,a few years before EON came into existence.The film's working title was "James Bond of the Secret Service", and the original storyline was about a mysterious terrorist organization based in the Bahamas which hijacks a military bomber,steals its nuclear devices and then holds the world to ransom.Utimately only 007 can stop them.
For various reasons(mainly budgetary),this film --as it was originally planned-- was never made,but Ian Fleming used the plot of this proposed movie as the basis for his novel Thunderball.However,he did this without the knowledge,much less the consent, of McClory and Whittingham--each of whom had participated in the creation of the general plotline and of SPECTRE.Thunderball is the 007 novel that first introduces SPECTRE--along with their leader,Ernst Stavro Blofeld).Fleming's erstwhile partners received no recognition whatsover for any inspiration for the content of the Thunderball novel at the time it was first published(this was corrected in later printings).To his surprise,Fleming was accused of plagerism by McClory(who bought out Whittingham's interest in the aborted 1959 "James Bond of the Secret Service" film) and a long court battle took place to determine who really owned the cinematic rights to the Thunderball novel,including the cinematic rights to the SPECTRE organization, Blofeld--and even the potential film rights to James Bond.
During this period,Ian Fleming also wrote On Her Majesty's Secret Service and You Only Live Twice,the final two novels in the "Blofeld Trilogy".They are absolutely intended to be read in that order, because the actions beginning in Thunderball are immediately carried over to the plots of OHMSS and YOLT.After a long court case,Kevin McClory was eventually awarded all of the cinematic rights to the complete Thunderball story(but to no other 007 saga),with Ian Fleming retaining all of the literary rights to Thunderball.
When EON began making their 007 films they were completely unaware that the film rights to SPECTRE belonged to McClory.In order to keep him from attempting his own production of Thunderball,EON allowed him to produce their version in 1965.McClory would try to remake Thunderball multiple times thereafter,finally succeeding in 1983 with Never Say Never Again.
OHMSS is the second SPECTRE/Blofeld story and when EON decided to film it,director Peter Hunt and screenwriter Richard Maibaum chose to be as faithful to Fleming's novel as possible,complete to the tragic ending.They ignored the contents of the YOLT movie entirely.Interestingly,OHMSS was intended to be filmed prior to YOLT--thus putting the cinematic "Blofeld Trilogy" in its correct order--and Sean Connery had talked in public interviews about starring in OHMSS(this was in 1966).Poor weather conditions in Switzerland dictated EON's decision to film YOLT before OHMSS.By doing this EON retained an established Ian Fleming title, but filmed an entirely original story and departed entirely from the novel's plotline-short of a few character names and its Japanese setting.
By 1967,Connery was in no mood to appear in OHMSS.Before he'd completed YOLT,he'd announced that he was through with 007--he'd had enough(while in Japan, an overzealous photographer had chased him into the bathroom).At that time there wasn't enough money to make 007 attractive any more(until 1971,anyway,for Diamonds Are Forever--and at that time for the largest amount of money any actor had ever been paid).Additionally,Connery's marriage was falling apart.Despite several interesting efforts to broaden his image in starring roles in other motion pictures,Sean Connery was on his way to becoming typecast as James Bond.Its good to remember that unlike most of the later actors who've since played 007,Connery was not an established leading man when he first took the role--playing 007 had certainly helped to make him a star,just as his participation in these films had created enormous audiences for them worldwide.But by the same token,playing 007 so successfully had also linked the charismatic Connery forever with the James Bond character in the public's consciousness.Connery was 36 years old-if he was ever to leave 007 behind,that was the time.
Accordingly,the OHMSS movie represented a huge gamble on the part of EON--whose team of lawyers were busy keeping Kevin McClory at bay.For the first time an actor other than Sean Connery would play James Bond(!), and this film would be an attempt at putting an Ian Fleming novel on the screen with a fidelity not seen since From Russia With Love.Thus OHMSS presented a challenge for EON.The making of OHMSS and the public's reception of this motion picture would prove to be a unique experience for everyone concerned.
Again,for answers to your questions check out Sellers' The Battle for Bond.And also Raymond Benson's The James Bond Bedside Companion and John Cork's James Bond:The Legacy for complete details on the making of all of the SPECTRE movies--especially those concerning Thunderball and OHMSS.
Hopefully some of this is helpful.
Willie - thanks for your info as well -
I would think that EON would have some pretty good estoppel claims - the doctrine of unclean hands or untimely objection - nearly a decade of SPECTRE, 3 films with ESB in which he did NOT write a source script for!
He cant look the other way for so long - and yet Im sure those books have the answers - but unles he was up in arms at the start of Dr. No I would think at least his SPECTRE rights were forfeit. (IANAL OFC)
Thanks for the SMERSH answer as well and that seems to be the public version of why it was only mentioned in FRWL (correct me if im wrong please)
I am certainly going to grab those books Willie as Ive known about them since around the time I was surfing and landed on this site...but I just wondered about your 3rd paragraph starting with
"During this period,Ian Fleming also wrote On Her Majesty's Secret Service and You Only Live Twice,the final two novels in the "Blofeld Trilogy"
when later you state it as Ive known it
"OHMSS was intended to be filmed prior to YOLT--thus putting the cinematic "Blofeld Trilogy" in its correct order"
This basically meaning that Thunderball SHOULD have had Blofeld as the primary antagonist and DAF was prettty much adapted to close out the ESB trilogy?
I mean of course we know ESB is #1 in SPECTRE and can see him from torso on down in TB but Largo then and even in NSNA is the main antagonist - the films ESB is shown face to face in have no strong McClory input so he walked into court for a cat loving torso ? Anyways if you dont have the spare time I hope to find out in the book....
Thank you all for your posts and I encourage more as I think that especially after hearing about McClory's suit even going so far as to claim some right over the charachter Bond himself nauseated me it will be a hot topic for myself until Ive read the last detail.
I just have the most difficult time resolving a director's (or producer's) allegiance to a novel with common sense for something so huge like a Blofelcd encounter VERSUS all the on screen gutting of Fleming stories and works that left Fleming's contribution at barely a title or such.
Thanks again - I love your opinions and sincerely appreciate your time.
That's correct,JBubya--To some degree,the DAF movie has an original story designed to tie up all of the loose ends left at the close of OHMSS.The DAF pretitle sequence is generally viewed as EON's way of dealing with the remainder of OHMSS's storyline.
As for Ernst Stavro Blofeld?The only novels in which Blofeld appears are:
1)Thunderball-Blofeld is offstage much of the time--as he is in the film.Emilio Largo is the central villain and he's following Blofeld's edicts.The movie's storyline is very close to the one in the book--which,of course, is no surprise as it was intended to be a movie in the first place.About 95% of the novel winds up on the screen.
2)OHMSS-This is the first time 007 and Blofeld meet.Both are in disguise(!).Overall,the OHMSS movie is remarkably close to the OHMSS book.As with Thunderball and From Russia With Love,about 95% of the novel makes it to the screen.Incidentally,the OHMSS novel also features the second and final appearance of SPECTRE.
3)You Only Live Twice-the novel and the movie are markedly different.Only a few elements from the YOLT book made it to the screen.It's an original story.
The court case involving the plagerism suit lodged against Fleming by McClory took over two years to complete.There's a school of thinking among some of Fleming's more recent biographers(like Andrew Lycett for instance--and particularly some of the experts Robert Sellers interviewed)that Fleming realized that while writing the Thunderball novel that there was always a chance he could be sued for appropriating the storyline for the unmade film he and his two erstwhile partners cooked up in 1959.The theory goes that Fleming--who was not a man without ego--was convinced that no one would ever dare take him to court.After all,he waa bestselling author and internationally famous.Some critics believe that's one of the reasons IF introduces Thunderball with 007's period at Shrublands rather than with the story's main action immediately.
Whatever,thanks to the screen treatments McClory definitely had a case against Fleming, showing that he could claim responsiblity for some of the story's most celebrated components.Ironically,it was screenwriter Jack Whittingham, among the three partners who really hammered the story into its clearest,most sophisticated,and recognizable form--and he chose not to be involved in the plagerism suit.
All Fleming had to have done to avoid any legal hassles was acknowledge McClory and Whittingham--in Thunderball's dedication,(i.e.:"for Kevin and Jack,who came to the aid of the party" or something equally oblique yet meaningful enough )--and it would've likely impossible for either man to suggest that Fleming had somehow pilfered any of their joint ideas.
During the time before the trial began,Fleming wrote OHMSS and YOLT--his yearly Bond novels.There would be only one more novel,The Man With the Golden Gun before IF--a heavy smoker and drinker with a heart condition-- passed away at the relatively young age of 56.He didn't live to see TMWTGG published and only saw the first two Bond films.
Finally,Diamonds Are Forever is one of IF's earlier books--the fourth,in fact.It's about Bond and Felix Leiter dealing with diamond smuggling by the Mafia in Las Vegas.SPECTRE and Blofeld do not appear in the story at all--but showgirl Tiffany Case does.DAF is not a sequel to OHMSS.Wint and Kidd,the colorful hitmen appear,however they are not humorous characters like the ones shown in the DAF movie.Nor,for that matter, do industrial diamonds play a part in the DAF novel--those were added to the DAF screenplay in order to somehow connect the diamond smuggling with the laser in the SPECTRE satellite.