NSNA vs. Thunderball

JimmyBond0129

Which Bond film is better? I don't know about you but with all of it's faults I think I prefer Never Say Never Again because I thought Thunderball was kind of boring. I can't wait for the collector's edition of Never Say Never Again.

Sweepy the Cat

Although NSNA is underrated I still prefer TB.

But my fave Bond film always seems to be the one I watched last so for me it should actually be TSWLM

Thunderpussy

The Sheer scale of Thunderball is Amazing It must still hold the record for the largest amount of actors etc filmed underwater.The finale Battle is Huge and nothing on its scale had been seen on screen before, All credit to the producers for putting all that money up there.After all it was the height of Bond Mania and they could of cut costs by putting out something less spectacular.
The pacing may be a little slow to a modern audience but compare it to any other 60's thriller and it's pretty fast.
NSNA IMHO looks a small movie, I've described it before as a TV Movie and i find it slower than TB.
To make fighting underwater exciting is hard it takes a combination of quick editing and great music, Thunderball had Both while NSNA had a very weak score, even the killing of Largo Because of this lacks any punch.
Thunderball has its faults, but for a real taste of just how Big a movie can be it would have to be my choice.

Napoleon Plural

It's in some ways six of one and half a dozen of another...

NSNA has the virtue of being memorable, I can trace the different scenes thro out much like DAF, MR, GE - it never stays with same locale too long and it has lots of quirky stuff, whereas TB has only two locations really, Shrublands and Nassau. And that can drag.

But on its day, with a glass of wine, TB is the best Bond film ever! You'd need some pretty hard drugs imo to feel that about NSNA...

zig zag

Thunderball all the way for me,if I'm going to watch 1 or the other its always TB.

Firemass

I just finished reading Ian Fleming's Thunderball and then rewatched the film and then watched NSNA. *whew*

Here are my notes about the 2 films in relation to the novel:

TB: No explanation of why Bond was at the health clinic. Bond notices Lippe's tattoo right away and thus insues their rivalry, again with little explanation. Did Lippe tap his phone call in the movie? Why would Lippe try to kill him just because he noticed his tattoo? He wasn't even trying to conceal it under his watch like in the novel.

The idea of making a clone of the pilot Derval was dumb idea by the screenwriters. In the novel is makes so much more sense to simply bribe a young pilot. Derval seems much too old for the role anyway.

Lippe hiding behind the door with a silenced pistol...why didn't he make an attempt to shoot Bond ? Instead there was an assassin at the window that Bond dealt with.

The theme of Largo being a treasure hunter as a perfect cover was dropped completely in both films.

NSNA: Did a much better job of establishing WHY Bond was at the health clinic. I love the line about eliminating free radicals. Sending the big thug to kill Bond is okay, but I miss the rivalry between Bond and Lippe as they turn exercise equipment into instruments of pain.

I enjoy watching Bond's seduction of Patricia Fearing much more in NSNA than in TB where he basically blackmails and bullies her.

Great casting job for Jack Petachi as the chosen pilot for this mission. The retina scan thing is new but still makes a lot more sense than a clone. However, such a big part of Thunderball was landing the jet in the water and hiding the plane. Neither of these happened in NSNA.

From here on out NSNA strays pretty far from the Fleming version. Instead of the great "spectre of defeat" scene with Largo, we get the weird video game.

However, where NSNA wins a few extra Fleming points is putting Bond and Leiter on the submarine with Captain Pederson. That never happened in TB film and instead seemed to be the inspiration for the instantly likable Captain Carter in The Spy Who Loved Me.

Another important detail in NSNA is the final underwater showdown between Bond and Largo. Just like in the novel, Bond disables the sled that is transporting the warhead. Domino swims to the rescue and kills Largo with a speargun.

That's about all I remember off the top of my head. The early Bond films that attempt to follow the novel have the advantage of great source material, but also the disadvantage of "the book is always better"

Thunderpussy

I always assumed Bond was at the clinic to recuperate after His fight
with the " Widow " with the poker.

hehadlotsofguts

Largo in TB was really sinister and charming. Largo in NSNA struck me as childish, especially when he smashes up his studio. I didn't think he was charming either.

TonyDP

Someone in another thread once made the comment that NSNA looked like a bad made-for-TV movie and right from my first viewing of it way back in 1983, that pretty much summarizes my feelings toward it.

While some complain that Thunderball was slow, the pace of NSNA was positively glacial and the action scenes were geriatric and plodding. The fight with Lippe at Shrublands was poorly paced with absolutely no ebb and flow and just went on and on forever. Instead of the cool confrontation between Bond and Largo at the casino, we get a bizarre videogame. The motorcycle / car chase between Bond and Fatima was very pedestrian and the flipping car over the invisible ramp stunt was a staple of 1970s TV shows (there's that bad TV movie vibe again). The horse chase when Bond rescues Domino again appeared to play out in slow motion (and were those submarines firing photon torpedoes?). The final underwater battle with Largo was equally dull, practically playing out in slow motion.

Michel Legrand contributed an absolutely atrocious musical score and parts of it sounded like unused snippets from his score for The Three Musketeers.

As for the actors, Connery looked really old here. His toupee was cropped too short and very visibly fake, his scottish accent was also really out of control. The various scenes of the young ladies leering at him were just plain comical. Barbara Carrera hammed it up way too much as Fatima Blush to project any menace and is a pale spectre of Fiona Volpe's sexy deadliness. Kim Basinger was pretty but utterly flat as Domino, spending most of her time dancing on the deck of the Yacht. Largo had no presence or menace at all, he was hard to understand and was physically non-threatening compared to Celi. Speaking of hard to understand, Max Von Sydow sounded like he had marbles in his mouth. M and his assistant were your stereotypical clueless British fops and did their countrymen absolutely no favors. I really don't know what Rowan Atkinson was doing and Felix Leiter was little more than a glorified doorman.

The gadgets were very forgettable. Bond's watch was just a cheapo model with a rubber strap and an animated green laser effect; the motorcycle's big feature was drop down bumpers; Largo's underwater sleds were positively unimaginative; and the rocket packs were bulky and unweildy compared to the elegant jet pack from TB.

So for me NSNA was a pale ghost of the spectacle that was Thunderball. It may have borrowed a few more ideas from the novel but as a movie it was a really pointless remake all around.

Gassy Man

Thunderball was clearly the better movie, and it has the look and feel of a big budget Bond film.

NSNA again, however, is terribly underrrated. I saw it in 1983 along with Octopussy and liked it significantly more.

I disagree with the comments that it looks like a TV movie -- that would be Goldeneye, with its flat cinematography, bad CGI, and unimaginative staging. If anything, NSNA looks retro. The color and staging are much more in line with what one would see in a 60s movie than in an 80s one, and had the film had traditional Bond music and the gunbarrel sequence, it would have fit in nicely with the series. I didn't mind at all that Connery actually looked his age in that he was still quite fit and the plot insisted that he be so -- if anyone was looking long in the tooth, it was Moore.

Klaus Maria Brandauer was the most interesting villain in years, and Barbara Carrera was loony fun. The film did have its weaknesses. It was the coke-fueled 80s, and people couldn't quite figure out whether to be campy or serious, so as with so many projects in that era, there is often groan-inducing compromise. I would put Rowan Atkinson into this category, as well as some of the attempts at humor. Kim Basinger was tedious but still miles ahead of where we would be with Tanya Roberts, Talisa Soto, or Denise Richards a few years later.

I understand why within the narrow confines of a lawsuit the makers of NSNA had to work so hard to make their movie not look like a film from the regular series, and this contributes to its sense of compromise.

AirJordanFan93

I always prefered Thunderball. NSNA feels very cheap and low-rent compared to the EON films and it did have money behind it it still feels very low rent. Thunderball was my favorite of the Connery bonds when I was a kid mind you this was 10 years ago but none the less I always loved it. I watched NSNA about a year after I first saw Thunderball and I never liked it at all it comes off as a poor retelling of a really good early Bond film. I always thought Connery gave his best performance in Thunderball and his NSNA is not in the same league as it was in 1965.

Higgins

IMO Thunderball is the evidence that Cubby's formula "Pay really good money and the audience will see an appreciate it" was right.

NSNA had a good starting but then went cheap and silly.

Exception: Barbara Carrera - too bad that she did not show up in an EON Bond

Golrush007

I've never liked NSNA at all really. I find it totally boring and it feels like a TV Movie. It is ridiculous, considering that it is directed by the man who helmed The Empire Strikes Back.

Thunderball, on the other hand, is a classic Bond film and although the pacing isn't so tight in the second half it is an entertaining and memorable film. So my choice is, resoundingly, Thunderball!!

Thunderpussy

+1, My feelings exactly. -{

hehadlotsofguts

I also think it's a mistake making Q a comedy character in this. He is ENCOURAGING Bond's antics. The humour that comes from Q's character in the EON films is his disdain for Bond's behaviour. He is not Bond's mate which he seems to be in NSNA.

Mr Mallory

Neither are favourites of mine but I'd go with Thunderball.

Blackleiter

TonyDP wrote:

Felix Leiter was little more than a glorified doorman.

Although I agree with some of your complaints about NSNA, I thought this comment was way off base. I think Bernie Casey's Felix is more likable and interesting than any of the others up to that point, except perhaps David Hedison. (My avatar is probably a give-a-way that I really like this guy!) He is easy-going and charming in his interactions with Bond, and he even gets to participate in the climatic battle at the villain's lair, which is more than you can say for the other Leiters.

Also, I agree with our friend Gassy Man when he says: "Klaus Maria Brandauer was the most interesting villain in years, and Barbara Carrera was loony fun."

Firemass

Blackleiter wrote:

TonyDP wrote:

Felix Leiter was little more than a glorified doorman.

Although I agree with some of your complaints about NSNA, I thought this comment was way off base. I think Bernie Casey's Felix is more likable and interesting than any of the others up to that point, except perhaps David Hedison. (My avatar is probably a give-a-way that I really like this guy!) He is easy-going and charming in his interactions with Bond, and he even gets to participate in the climatic battle at the villain's lair, which is more than you can say for the other Leiters.

I completely agree. One of the few instances where the Felix character actually is cool.

Even reading the TB novel I was growing tired of this big annoying texan who is like Bond's BFF (Best Friend Forever) and the assortment of bad/old/fat actors to portray him in the films didn't do Felix any favors either.

Thunderpussy

Another +1. -{ Sometimes you'd wonder why Bond was even friends with some of the Leiters
they put on screen, from the looks of them I doubt Bond would've had much in common with
these tired, middle aged policemen types ( No offence Always shaken ).
With Bernie Cassey you could see him and Bond hanging out together having a beer, as
Friends.

always shaken

To be honest I like both, I think NSNA is more farcical ,I mean why make a film with Bond based on a Bond film ?
they should have done a completely new plot ,when I see Fatima Blush, I always think of Austin Powers Alotta Fagina
as for friendship with Leiter I think Dalton probably had the best relation ship with Heddison to the point
he was going to jack it all in for his friend and thanks for the comment TP im quit chuffed that you thought of me )

Thunderpussy

)
The commentary on the bluray of NSNA, they always point out they had to stick as much as possible to the Book
Or Eon's lawyers would of been constantly draging them into court.

Firemass

I can agree with many of these criticisms, but it doesn't diminish my enjoyment of NSNA.
Bond films are like family to me, even with their faults, gotta love em anyway.

Thunderpussy

Good point, I may have my favourites but I'd rather watch a Bond that anything else. -{

Golrush007

I admire the sentiment, and it applies to all other Bond films for me (including Casino Royale 1967), but when it comes NSNA I'd probably tend to watch something else.

bainesy1us

Only a short answer on this one. Thunderball=Bond classic, NSNA = mediocre at best

chrisisall

Golrush007 wrote:

I've never liked NSNA at all really. I find it totally boring and it feels like a TV Movie. It is ridiculous, considering that it is directed by the man who helmed The Empire Strikes Back.

Agreed.
And some people say Connery was not into YOLT, but I think his performance in NSNA is exceptionally uninspired.
Back in '83 I was just so happy to see him back it never really hit me how BAD NSNA was. Or how bad he was in it.
Before NSNA he made Outland. After he made Highlander. He was absolutely stellar in BOTH. I think he regretted every minute of making NSNA.

So, despite having one of my two favourite Felix's ever, I'll go with Thunderball every time.

DieAnotherDay

TB - 9.5/10
NSNA - 6.5/10

TB is tied with with GF as my favourite Connery Bond.
NSNA isn't bad but Connery's a bit old and it doesn't have the humongous scale of TB

Revelator

Firemass wrote:

The idea of making a clone of the pilot Derval was dumb idea by the screenwriters. In the novel is makes so much more sense to simply bribe a young pilot.

Definitely. As Raymond Benson pointed out, the film needlessly complicated the original story--which is probably why the film feels so long.

NSNA: Did a much better job of establishing WHY Bond was at the health clinic. I love the line about eliminating free radicals.

NSNA has some great lines, though I never know whether to credit them to Lorenzo Semple (who wrote episodes of the 60s Batman show) or Dick Clement and Ian La Frenais (who wrote classic British sitcoms like Porridge).

I enjoy watching Bond's seduction of Patricia Fearing much more in NSNA than in TB where he basically blackmails and bullies her.

Agreed again. Bond doesn't need to blackmail women into his bed. That's just creepy.

From here on out NSNA strays pretty far from the Fleming version. Instead of the great "spectre of defeat" scene with Largo, we get the weird video game.

I miss the "spectre of defeat" line, but I like the video game scene a lot. It has a neat retro feel and looks like it would be fun (in a hair-raising sort of way) to play in real life.

Another important detail in NSNA is the final underwater showdown between Bond and Largo. Just like in the novel, Bond disables the sled that is transporting the warhead. Domino swims to the rescue and kills Largo with a speargun.

That's true, but the battle in the book was far more intense, suspenseful, and brutal. There Bond was at the end of his rope when Domino saved him. The film pretty much throws the scene away.
NSNA is nowadays underrated by Bond fans, but TB is often more exciting and epic in scale.

readpaulb

I actually just watched NSNA on Friday so it's fresh in my mind. I would say in full disclosure that I don't care for Thunderball that much to begin with (compared to the other early Bonds anyway, as it does really grind along, and the underwater sequence is just painfully slow for me). Having said that...

NSNA is clearly the worse of the two, basically due to the last 45 minutes of the movie or so when I could barely pay attention, must less care where this was going as I had already seen Thunderball, and had a basic idea of where things were going.

This is too bad though because I thought this was one of the funnier Bond movies I've watched. The free radical jokes cracked me up, and even the jokes that didn't make sense in the context of their characters (like Q, or M), still really had me laughing.

Fatima Blush was also one of the best hench(wo)men of any of the movies, but as others have said Largo wasn't inspiring.

Oh and come on... the videogame sequences... seriously?

Thunderpussy

) agreed, I never liked the video game idea, as opposed to a high tension card game.

readpaulb

Thunderpussy wrote:

) agreed, I never liked the video game idea, as opposed to a high tension card game.

Yeah I really couldn't

A) imagine Bond playing videogames (in any era)

B ) imagine anyone being dumb enough to sit down any play said videogame for thousands of dollars without ever playing

The scene just doesn't have anything to do with Bond.