Vesper's death vs. Tracy's death
JimmyBond0129
United States Posts: 263MI6 Agent
Which death scene do you prefer Vesper's death in Casino Royale or Tracy's death in On Her Majesty's Secret Service? I prefer Vesper's death because I actually felt a little bit sad when I saw her die and I didn't feel anything when I saw Tracy die.
"I admire your courage, Miss?..." "Trench, Sylvia Trench."
"I admire your luck, Mister?..." "Bond, James Bond."
"I admire your luck, Mister?..." "Bond, James Bond."
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"I admire your luck, Mister?..." "Bond, James Bond."
"I admire your luck, Mister?..." "Bond, James Bond."
I don't know if I would use the word 'prefer' but Tracey's death, and the way it happened, affected me more. I found Vesper's death to be quite pointless and I didn't care for her as a character. As a result, I wasn't affected by her death. On the other hand, I loved Tracey and her death, particularly in the manner in which it happened (murdered straight after she and Bond married), truly devastated me. It still does; I can't even bring myself to utter the line that Bond says.
Tracy's death happens so sudden and unexpectedly it feels like a slap in the face and you are left wondering what just happened.
On the other hand we see Bond moving on and 'getting the bad guy' in CR straight away (never mind that he gets away in QOS) giving the audience a sense of closure.
With Tracy the audience is left without this satisfaction.
So I would actually 'prefer' neither, but I remain more affected by Vesper's death on the personal note that she reminds me so much of my wife, rather than anything else.
I preferred the death of Tracy because its sudden unexpectedness (for those who hadn't read the novel) was devastating.... and there'd been no death with an impact like this in a James Bond film before. In a sense we were complicit in it because we didn't want our hero to settle down and get married - he had to be brought back, somehow, to square one. John Barry's brash end title arrangement of The James Bond Theme seems to add a touch of callousness coming so soon, as it does, after the death.
Vesper's death is fully embedded in CR and well handled, but there is a degree of post-'Titanic' sentimentality about it; I prefer the rawness of the impact of Tracy's death in OHMSS.
Has anybody else noticed how, after the car chase in the pre-credits sequence of QoS, the way in which the bullet hole in Bond's car window has cracked the glass seems to allude to the bullet hole in the car window at the end of OHMSS?
From an audience point of view, I think that, like Bond, we try to decieve ourselves that he can be settle down and be happy, even though we (and him) know that he can't. When Tracey gets murdered, it's a huge shock, yet at the same time, it was inevitable; partly caused by Bond himself, and by the audience who tried to forget that Bond could never settle down, not while he was still an active agent at least.
Daniel Crag's Bond has all the refined elements of his predacessors, but the one aspect that his potrayal of Bond cranked up in CR is the characters humanity. Not just in making mistakes, but in his feelings. - The loss of Vesper affects him deeply, and strengthens the fact this Bond is not the full shilling through his ruthlessness. Through him we get to see that Vesper is indeed his equal on may levels, and the scenes of them together post torture are sweet and bitter - cause we know where its going to go. Although her sacrafice to save him is in part engineered though her betraying him, he genuinely feels pain at her loss. - Its clear how his attitude to women will develop. He won't let them get close, because he can't. Ever.
Having said all that, - the last time this approach was taken at face value, was in OHMSS. the film and its leading man have had detractors over the years. - I wasn't one of them. As Bond George Lazenby was convincing as a different Bond, and the scenes between him and Diana Rigg's Tracy sparkle. - Much as Craig and Eva Green's do almost 30 years later in CR. Lazenby gives Bond a vulnerability and sense or mourning that Connery never did, (his Bond was never written that way) and it makes his solo turn powerful, and memorable.
Honourable mention - In FYEO, at the start of the film, Bond visits his wife's grave. Sir Roger Moore does a lovely job of making this scene somber and sad, before the usual high octane chaos kicks in. Showing a part of 007 still feels the loss of Tracy deep inside.
In the real world, I personally have found that when you loose someone close to you, it never feels the same way twice. Relatives, Close Friends, its always an emotional roller coaster, and you don't know how you will react.
I guess the audience gets a sense of closure but I don't think Bond gets any closure until the end of Quantum of Solace when he confronts Vesper's ex-boyfriend.
"I admire your luck, Mister?..." "Bond, James Bond."
She died for Bond. She gave up her life, because she couldn't face what she had done to him - so she sacrificed herself.
And when you sacrifice yourself, for the one you love - that, IMO is true love.
That is probably why CR will remain my favourite Bond, as it has this powerful element of a love story running through it. The emotion and utter despair that we fleetingly see in Bond, once he knows she has died, gives us a glimpse of the 'man' behind the façade.
One of the most powerful scenes in a Bond film - well for me anyway.
With Tracy's death, it was clear that this was a happy for Bond, and when she got shot, I believed the emotion behind it, and he was more straight forward with it. He was sad, and that was all.
That's not saying the way Vesper died was handled bad because it wasn't, I'm just saying that I like Tracy's death scene better....
"We're just too different... I mean, you're dead...." - Tim Burton's 'Corpse Bride'
Nicely said!
That's a tad selfish. She couldn't face living with Bond and having him know she was a traitor. Bond dives to rescue her, sure, but once the realisation sets in even he says "The bitch is dead." At the end of CR (regardless of what is said of QOS) he's already starting to effect closure on the relationship itself and is more interested in who was behind Le Chiffre etc.
I think the writers saw Vesper and Bond's final scenes as a problem (in the novel it isn't because Vesper's suicide doesn't come after a noisy gun battle) so they constructed a little sequence during which she kisses his hand, the one of which she had said "There is more of a man in this little finger..."
Gratingly obvious.
Tracy on the other hand, while involved in Bond's escape from Piz Gloria and the subsequent attack on it, isn't so attatched to the plot. This allows a deeper emotional involvement to take shape, she doesn't have the baggage of the "office relationship" hanging over her and for much of the time isn't even on screen.
Bond rescues Tracy from her suicide; he is intrigued and very much attracted. She is too, which is why she is so touchy at Draco's birthday party and cries when Bond stops her leaving. Their short weeks of romance happen outside the confines of the story, so when Bond actually considers surrendering his double-0 number it is wholy believable; he's found the woman of his dreams.
The acting between Lazenby and Rigg is exceptionally good. There is something very natural and carefree about the OHMSS wedding scenes, which I don't detect in all those silly forced scenes at the spa and in Venice in CR.
Tracy's death effects me more because I have genuine empathy with the lovers. Their relationship isn't bundled up by the writers in a host of psycho-babble and bold statements of love; it's a very simple warm attatchment, utilising the actors faces, body language and some heartrendering music. Who says there is no room for romance in a James Bond film?
Tracey's death was more tragic. It was sudden and completely unexpected. You could argue that this would have been a critical point in the making of Bond, had Connery not plodded through DAF. Moore played the scene well in the churchyard in FYEO.
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But didn't Bond "get the bad guy" in the teaser of Diamonds Are Forever when he hunted down Blofeld and eliminated him (or at least thought he had)?
I always figured that Bond's manhunt for Blofeld in the teaser of DAF (in addition to it being his Operation: Bedlam assignment) was motivated by his rage over Tracy's murder.
Maybe, but many of us feel it was given rather short shrift, given the circumstances. However lamented QoS has been, at least it provides a nice stage of adjustment through which Bond moves. DAF might have benefitted from such a thing, but sadly the era would not have it
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Well, as SC was obviously sleepwalking thru DAF, the motivation by rage over Tracy's death may have been in the script, but not in his acting
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
I know what you mean. I feel a genuine sadness when Tracy dies, that I just don't when Vesper does. This may be because I never really liked Eva Green as Vesper, where for me at least Diana Rigg was just perfect. I also never quite 'bought' the Bond Vesper relationship, which from my point of view was one of the few weaknesses in CR. Both characters save Bond life in one way or another, but one really moves me, and the other does not. I guess that this may well be a minority view, and that others will feel equally moved by Vespers death. Another salient point which is captured in another thread about Lazenby is just how well he plays the scene. Spot on in my view, and one of the best acted scenes in the whole series.
A minority view, probably, however don't worry, there are more people struggling to convince the world of this than you realise. :v Sadly, however, one of our greatest warriors, JFF seems to have retired.
He was incredible in that scene. Not only is it one of my favourite Bond scenes, but it's also one of my favourite film scenes in general.
For me there is no comparison. OHMSS will always stand on its own as a great work and is the most "real" 007 experience.