CR cloths verses QOS cloths

cpoulos62

I am not sure if this topic has been discussed before but it appears to me that Casino Royale had a better assortment of clothing, more sophisticated wardrobe selection and stylish then QoS. CR clothing just fit the scenes better, at least to me.

Please do not get me wrong, QoS had some really cool selection of clothing but not as well as CR. Definitely something was missing in QoS.

Nightshooter

We had this discussion awhile back, I don't remember the thread, but I'm willing to talk about it again. I strongly disagree - I think the Tom Ford suits are far, FAR better suited to Craig's body type than the Brioni suits were. I like all the casual clothes much better in QoS, as well. I just think Craig looked cooler, yet more sophisticated at the same time.

cpoulos62

Unfortunately I found the Tom Ford suits odd. I personally did not like the buttoning of the jackets. Having a button as part of the lapel is really off for me. Definately not part of standard suit styling. I also thought the suit at the end of CR was far superior then the one starting QoS.

Tom Ford's other contributions to QoS showed lack of imagination as the were obvious COPIES of Sunspel, Oliver Peoples, just to name a few.

Kittlemeier

A two button tip-over(or three button rolled to two, whatever you want to call it) is a classic style. Every single breasted suit I've had made has this closure, from way before Tom Ford had his own line. I thought the suits were much, much better in QOS, in fit and style. The details of the end scene suit in CR were nice, but the fit still didn't work as well.

As to the other looks in QOS, I liked them also even if they were dead on inspired by Steve McQueen pics. My Y-3 has become my favorite casual jacket.

Some of the CR clothes stood out(Maddy shirt) but weren't necessarily stylish, just suited for the situation a little better. The Venice outfit in particular was very boring.

cpoulos62

I must have been living under a rock but I have never seen nor currently would ever want or buy a 3 button rolled into 2 by folding over the lapel. I find that style unpracticle and rather uninspiring.

I will agree with the fit being batter in QoS but style I am afraid not. Even the color of the end scene Brioni suit was far superior to that of TF. The TF blue lacked life to it.

But if we all liked the same style and design, we would all wear the same clothing.

urhash

Don't worry cpoulos, you're not alone. As mentioned earlier, it's been discussed before so I won't rehash the argument. Suffice to say, the casual clothes in CR had more stylistic direction imo than QoS.

Kittlemeier

Wearing a suit ain't about practicality though, it's about style. Do you wear cuffs on your trousers? Yes, they anchor the fabric, but that wasn't their original intent. Do you use the lapel button hole or pockets? See what I mean? The tip-over style usually goes with a softer roll to the lapel which is more pleasing to my eye. Suits would be quite boring if it weren't for the little details.

And it's quite classic. I use the Chairman because they stole his haircut for QOS.

David Schofield

Three button rolled to two is a fairly long term staple.

However, I think it is the stark display of the top button hole against on bottom of the lapel that lets the Ford suit down.

When I first saw it I thought it was a fault of the suit!!!:))

nms75

There is nothing new whatsoever about lapels on suits being rolled to the second of three buttons. However very few "off the peg" suits today do this. Rather you will find it far more common on "top-end tailor made" suits. So no, it is not as common as in the past but not new either. While I'm sure some cheaper pre-made suits sometimes have this feature you are more likely to see it on top-end suits today.

NMS

ycpchief

I thought the casual clothes were better in style and variety in CR. I prefer the suits in QOS though with the exception of the CR final scene three-piece. That was a great choice for a classic Bond moment.

I will say that my only problem with the Tom Ford suits was that they tried too hard to make sure people noticed the suits were bespkoe. The rolled lapel was fine but the obvious button hole stood out too much. The five button cuffs were OK but they purposely left the fifth button undone almost as if to say, "hey look at these, they actually work".

Danjaq

As far as the Tom Ford Polo shirt from QOS, I haven't seen and felt one up close to compare it to others, but for me the unique airy weaving on the CR Sunspel Polo is better than any pique cotton shirt I've ever worn.

00-Agent

The lapel with 3 buttons rolled to 2 has been around in America a long time. It is a typical feature on a "sack" suit, which was first popularized in America around the turn of the century by Brooks Brothers. The 3 to 2 roll can still be found on suits by Brooks Brothers, J Press, O' Connell’s, and other makers. This look is popular with those going for the Trad or Ivy League look.

0073

ycpchief wrote:

I thought the casual clothes were better in style and variety in CR. I prefer the suits in QOS though with the exception of the CR final scene three-piece. That was a great choice for a classic Bond moment.

I agree with you completely {[] Suits in the CR seem to me a little bit too boxy, with DC's wide shoulders and they seem to have just a little bit too loose fitting trousers. For example the Bahamas arrival suit is very '80s and reminescent (sp) of Don Johnsson in Miami Vice. I do however disagree with the CR final scene suit, since it has all the same faults as the other suits in CR. QOS suits, however have, to me, more natural slimline fit which in my opinion is a lot less flashy than any of the suits worn by Bonds' since OHMSS!!! With Tom Ford, my problem is more with the whole idea of Bond buying everything, except shoes, from TF stores. That is so not-Bond! X-(

Thunderbird 2

cpoulos62 wrote:

I am not sure if this topic has been discussed before but it appears to me that Casino Royale had a better assortment of clothing, more sophisticated wardrobe selection and stylish then QoS. CR clothing just fit the scenes better, at least to me.

Please do not get me wrong, QoS had some really cool selection of clothing but not as well as CR. Definitely something was missing in QoS.

I fully agree!

CR is a modern back to basics. Bond's wardrobe is a nice mixture of different looks and styles for the different elements and activities, but always seem stylish and classy because its understated. - Its not flash, over the top or showy.
QOS by contrast is the opposite extreme. Tom Ford is a talented designer, and he knows how to dress himself - but his clothing lines are designer. - Showy, flashy and stand out in an expensive way. These are not bad qualities for a designer clothing label, but a weak aspect for the fictional world of Ian Fleming's famous secret agent.

All of this is reflected by Daniel Craig too. Mr Craig is a clothes horse in real life. - Not only a talented actor, the man can wear anything he chooses and look fantastic. (Jammy git!) - Any picture of him as himself wearing his own attire, not in wardrobe for a role, reflects this. - However, when he is playing Bond, he is potraying the character and the character's wardrobe, not his own. QOS fails to reflect this.

To give a classic and Bond timeless style example, lets look at the two tuxes. - The Brioni from CR is basically the same style that Pierce Brosnan wore previously. Its Bond's most identifable wardrobe, and the look and style of it fits in perfectly with the nature of the character. Esp in the Casino scenes. - Its classic, understated, sophisticated and dare I say it, looks sexy.
The Tom Ford tux just doesn't work in the context of the film scenes of QOS. The sixties retro styling is too reminicent of Conney's suit from Dr No, inviting unfair comparisons between the two men as their versions of the character. Its made worse by the fact its midnight blue instead of black, - it seems too flashy and pretentious in the context of the story and the scene. Especially for a "borrowed" outfit! (Bond is supposed to be blending in for crying out loud!) - There have been various pics of Daniel Craig wearing a suit of that same style at various dos. - He stands out for all the right, obvious reasons. A contrast to the character of 007.

The other suits and even the casual clothing reflect this aspect as well. In QOS it just isn't believable that Bond is wearing flashy designer clothing all the time. In the past it had a sublty that reflected Bond's nature. CR maintained that. QOS is too much in the Tom Ford box. - How many of us in the real world can have a completely designer wardrobe dedicated exclusively to one label, from shirts and underwear to cuff links and ties? Mind you, every phone seen is an Eriksson, ad every computer is a Sony! 8-)

Of course these things will date the film a bit faster than its predacessors too. Bond does need to lead the way, but not by using the leading man as a scene by scene model! More subtle CR styling please, less QOS exclusivity!

Final thought is this....

http://www.kingandallen.co.uk/?v=customer_feedback&p=1

My answer to Tom Ford and Brionni. For a fraction of the cost! :007)

shaughnessy

It almost seems like after Vesper's death, not only did they make Bond become more reckless through his killing, but also with his extravagant spending. Hence, the bespoke suits, Church's shoes, new Omega watch, and $1500 cardigan. Although I did enjoy most of his new wardrobe in QoS, CR still had a little more of a realistic feel to the types of casual clothing I'd expect Bond to wear. For example, the Armani jacket, the fantastic tuxedo, as well as the neat Madagascar tropical shirt.

Mister White

shaughnessy wrote:

It almost seems like after Vesper's death, not only did they make Bond become more reckless through his killing, but also with his extravagant spending. Hence, the bespoke suits, Church's shoes, new Omega watch, and $1500 cardigan.

Years ago, when a girlfriend left me, the first thing I did was go into town and spend a lot of money on a new wardrobe, amongst wich were two new suits. It's a valid way of getting over someone...

But as for the current argument, we also have to take into account that CR spans a longer period in time, so Bond has more time to change and wear different clothes more suited to the occasion, where as in QOS Bond hardly has the time for that.

Wich brings me to the point that even though I like the style of QOS very much, it is a bit of a stretch that Bond finds a fitting jacket in a hitman's wardrobe, as well as a tailored tuxedo in a dressing room at the opera. :v

Nightshooter

shaughnessy wrote:

It almost seems like after Vesper's death, not only did they make Bond become more reckless through his killing, but also with his extravagant spending. Hence, the bespoke suits, Church's shoes, new Omega watch, and $1500 cardigan. Although I did enjoy most of his new wardrobe in QoS, CR still had a little more of a realistic feel to the types of casual clothing I'd expect Bond to wear. For example, the Armani jacket, the fantastic tuxedo, as well as the neat Madagascar tropical shirt.

Yeah, that $4000 Armani jacket was really cheap. 8-)
Not to mention that his shoes in CR were John Lobb, which are much more expensive than Church's. And Brioni is incredibly expensive as well. So I don't think much has changed in terms of his spending habits.

shaughnessy

I'm not saying it wasn't cheap, by any means, just that there was a bit more variation to Bond's style of clothing. At least the Sunspel shirts were somewhat affordable. Someone should actually try to price out his wardrobes for each film, I am curious as to how much each add up to.

Higgins

shaughnessy wrote:

I'm not saying it wasn't cheab, by any means, just that there was a bit more variation to Bond's style of clothing. At least the Sunspel shorts were somewhat affordable. Someone should actually try to price out his wardrobes for each film, I am curious as to how much each add up to.

Sunspel Shorts in CR!!!

I must get them!

walther p99

I like the wardrobe in QOS alot better, maybe becuase they refined Craigs look in the film with longer hair and not as bulky. and, for the first time in a Bond film, i really took notice of his suits and pointing out its details,also, i loved his casual wear a bit more then in CR, such as the Haiti and Bolivia outfits. The main reason why i like Bond's wardrobe in QOS better is like i said before, in CR craig had the spikey hair and looked way too bulky in most of his suits. in QOS he had the connery-like combover and trimmed down quite a bit and looked alot better in suits.

Thunderbird 2

walther p99 wrote:

in QOS he had the connery-like combover and trimmed down quite a bit and looked alot better in suits.

That was the first thing that irritated me. The styling had that overtonew of the sixties, which to me is looking in the wrong direction. Ah well, can't win em all!

walther p99

Thunderbird 2 wrote:

walther p99 wrote:

in QOS he had the connery-like combover and trimmed down quite a bit and looked alot better in suits.

That was the first thing that irritated me. The styling had that overtonew of the sixties, which to me is looking in the wrong direction. Ah well, can't win em all!

true, i suppose trying to make Craig look as much like Connery is a bit overkill and not giving his Bond his own unique look like in CR,but since most associate Connery as being the one and only 007 it worked i guess.

FanOfFleming

ycpchief wrote:

I will say that my only problem with the Tom Ford suits was that they tried too hard to make sure people noticed the suits were bespkoe. The rolled lapel was fine but the obvious button hole stood out too much. The five button cuffs were OK but they purposely left the fifth button undone almost as if to say, "hey look at these, they actually work".

The suits were not bespoke. Furthermore, I think Mr Craig simply unbuttoned those last buttons to make it look more like a normal four-button cuff.

nms75

I have to say I liked both the CR and QOS for Bond's clothing styles so no real complaints from me.

The suits in both movies are just fine in my opinion and so were his casual clothes.

I agree that finding a perfectly fitting Y3 jacket in a hitman's wardrobe (who Bond has just killed) and a great fit dinner suit in a wardrobe is stretching it. But then it is Bond I guess, he pushes everything to the limit )

Its all down to personal choice at the end of the day but I think both movies worked well style wise.

NMS

hackett

Thats where I'm going wrong. Based on the virtual model on the Landsend site, my first "Desert Jacket" was miles to big. I duly sent it back and ordered a smaller one, which fits great (but I was stung for a customs charge).
Now I realize all I have to do is fight a hit man the same size as me and pinch his clothes.

Mister White

hackett wrote:

Thats where I'm going wrong. Based on the virtual model on the Landsend site, my first "Desert Jacket" was miles to big. I duly sent it back and ordered a smaller one, which fits great (but I was stung for a customs charge).
Now I realize all I have to do is fight a hit man the same size as me and pinch his clothes.

)

I think you just solved all our problems!

ycpchief

FanOfFleming wrote:

ycpchief wrote:

I will say that my only problem with the Tom Ford suits was that they tried too hard to make sure people noticed the suits were bespkoe. The rolled lapel was fine but the obvious button hole stood out too much. The five button cuffs were OK but they purposely left the fifth button undone almost as if to say, "hey look at these, they actually work".

The suits were not bespoke. Furthermore, I think Mr Craig simply unbuttoned those last buttons to make it look more like a normal four-button cuff.

Not bespoke, really? Man, those were some pretty great fitting suits for off the rack or made to measure even. I did see the following though so I'm not sure:

"DANIEL CRAIG has never been retiscent about his love of Tom Ford suits (read all about it here) - now the star is being equally outspoken about the trashing his favourite wardrobe staples are getting on the set of the new James Bond film, Quantum of Solace. The actor is reported to have ruined around 40 bespoke suits by the American designer during filming already, and there's still a way to go yet."

"SPY GAMES Tom Ford is keeping mum, but the British press have reported that Daniel Craig is wearing Tom Ford suits in the next James Bond film, Quantum of Solace, set to be released in November. ……Earlier this month Craig lamented to the British press that he was ruining numerous Tom Ford bespoke ..."

Also I don't recall reading or hearing Craig say he left the fifth sleeve button undone to make the suit appear to be a four button. That would be an assumption that I'm not sure is correct.

Roikins

FanOfFleming wrote:

The suits were not bespoke. Furthermore, I think Mr Craig simply unbuttoned those last buttons to make it look more like a normal four-button cuff.

Not so. They are bespoke suits. Tom Ford is selling a product, and as such, wants his product to look the best, which means making the items provided bespoke, much as Brioni did. Additionally, there are likely tiny details needed for the filming of the movie, like hidden snaps or weights to keep the suit's or trouser's drape or hang proper during action scenes, in which bespoke is needed.

As for the unbuttoning of the fifth button, that's one of Ford's design "trademarks." He did it at Gucci and now does it with his line. All his suits are made with a larger 5th button that is meant to be worn undone. You will see this on his RTW suits as well if you go to his Madison Ave. store, or even to the Neimans stores that carry his line.

FanOfFleming

ycpchief wrote:

Not bespoke, really? Man, those were some pretty great fitting suits for off the rack or made to measure even. I did see the following though so I'm not sure:

"DANIEL CRAIG has never been retiscent about his love of Tom Ford suits (read all about it here) - now the star is being equally outspoken about the trashing his favourite wardrobe staples are getting on the set of the new James Bond film, Quantum of Solace. The actor is reported to have ruined around 40 bespoke suits by the American designer during filming already, and there's still a way to go yet."

"SPY GAMES Tom Ford is keeping mum, but the British press have reported that Daniel Craig is wearing Tom Ford suits in the next James Bond film, Quantum of Solace, set to be released in November. ……Earlier this month Craig lamented to the British press that he was ruining numerous Tom Ford bespoke ..."

The press often use terms incorrectly. The mention of bespoke above is just another case of that. Tom Ford suits are made-to-measure Zegna with Mr Ford's design specifications.

Roikins wrote:

Not so. They are bespoke suits. Tom Ford is selling a product, and as such, wants his product to look the best, which means making the items provided bespoke, much as Brioni did. Additionally, there are likely tiny details needed for the filming of the movie, like hidden snaps or weights to keep the suit's or trouser's drape or hang proper during action scenes, in which bespoke is needed.

Details do not bespoke make. The thing that qualifies something as bespoke is the existence of a personal pattern that is only used for that specific customer. A suit could have every unusual detail imaginable, amazing construction and special fabrics but if it was not cut on a pattern specifically for the customer, it is not bespoke.

I suggest that you read this short piece by the bespoke tailor who cut HRH the Prince of Wales's suits at Anderson & Sheppard.

Bond has not worn bespoke suits since Lindy Hemming switched Bond over to made-to-measure in Goldeneye. Bond (in Quantum of Solace, at least) does, however, wear, bespoke shirts by Turnbull & Asser.

Compare the fit of Craig Bond's made-to-measure
http://images.blu-ray.com/reviews/1183_2_large.jpg
to Connery Bond's bespoke here
http://images.blu-ray.com/reviews/675_5_large.jpg

The bespoke fits much more naturally. Bond still looks good in the recent movies, but looking at his clothes next to Bond in bespoke, the difference is quite evident.

ycpchief wrote:

Also I don't recall reading or hearing Craig say he left the fifth sleeve button undone to make the suit appear to be a four button. That would be an assumption that I'm not sure is correct.

Roikins wrote:

As for the unbuttoning of the fifth button, that's one of Ford's design "trademarks." He did it at Gucci and now does it with his line. All his suits are made with a larger 5th button that is meant to be worn undone. You will see this on his RTW suits as well if you go to his Madison Ave. store, or even to the Neimans stores that carry his line.

Perhaps my assumption about the fifth button is incorrect. I readily concede that possibility. However, I do not budge at all as to the suits from Goldeneye onwards not being bespoke.

****
As mentioned MGM Copyrighted images are noit allowed in posts on ajb007.co.uk. - SiCo

Loeffelholz

Very sorry, FanOfFleming...but Eon-copyrighted images are forbidden on ajb007.co.uk...

FanOfFleming

My apologies, Loeffelholz. Thank you for changing it for me; I'll avoid that mistake in future.