Time for a new M

chrisno1chrisno1 LondonPosts: 3,634MI6 Agent
I like Judi Dench. Similar to Bernard Lee in the '60s she has a steeliness in M's personality that works well.
The '70s and '80s films (with the exception of DAF) always seemed to treat M and the traditional interview as something of an excuse for light hearted banter.
Dench's initial appearance in GE was a revelation and she was equally good in TND. I didn't like her expanded role in TWINE, chiefly because it removes some of her ruthlessness. In GE she tells Bond she has no worries about sending a man to his death; but in this film her guilt over King's death and her earlier mismanagement of Elektra's kidnap leads to her own capture. It seems too unlikely.
In DAD, they put her into the background more, until the silly finale when all the heads of various secret and military services are sitting in the firing line of a potential nuclear conflict - hilarious!
Overall I thought she'd dose well.

I was hoping then, that a new 007 might mean a new M. Not so, and although the nature of M and Bond's relationship is prickly in CR, she allows Bond to get away with a lot of misdemeanours - most unforgivably Bond even breaks into her home and she fails to do anything about it. Fleming would never have allowed 007 to treat his boss with such arrogance; his Bond knew his place in the order of things.

Bond continues his obstinancy in QOS and M seems to have developed an affection for her valuable agent. She flies to Siena and to Le Paz in an effort to control him - putting herself at risk again a la TWINE. These developments dont help the plot, rather they just reinforce the view that Bond is some sort of out of control rouge agent who keeps breaking free of his short leash.

If thats what the producers/writers want, perhaps they need to re-read the novels a bit. 007 isn't a rouge agent. He certainly goes out on a limb several times, but he rarely goes beyond the remit of his orders. M also, while accepting some of Bond's misdemeanours, never has to spend his time chasing after his favourite double-0.

While I enjoyed Dench's portrayal early on, I'm finding her a tad repetitive now. She isn't adding much gravitas any more, there seems to be more than a touch of annoyance about her. The writers are introducing her backstory into the films, which is unneccessary. While I can just about tolerate Dench herself, I really don't like what is happening to her character. Let's have M as M, sitting in his/her office, pushing the buttons and giving the orders. The espionage is down to Bond and lets allow him to get on with it.

I hope in time this will mean a change in actor. Dench has served her time well, but a rebooted Bond should have provided us with a rebooted M. My vote (based on Fleming's writing and Lee's original) would be Sir Michael Gambon. Might be just the thing for he needs to dust off his Dumbledor beard!

Comments

  • LoeffelholzLoeffelholz The United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
    edited June 2009
    I agree with most of your points---in fact, I take pride in being probably the first here to call for the assassination of Dame Judi's M (might as well make it work for the series!), and I've made something of a cottage industry of calling for her demise :v

    Personally, I didn't mind his break-in into her flat in CR, though I seem to be in the minority opinion on this. It's true that Fleming's Bond probably wouldn't have done it...but Fleming's Bond would NEVER have had a woman for a boss, IMRO. Along those same lines, I wonder whether Bond would have done such a thing if his boss were a man ?:) Perhaps a bit of old school misogyny there...But for me, it merely illustrates the sheer skill and boldness (or arrogance, if you must) of our Double-Oh early in his career---and it really defines a beginning point for the character arc that Craig's Bond makes over the course of his two films: one gets the sense that the Bond at the end of QoS probably wouldn't do such a thing under the same circumstances.

    But I'm all for M staying at Vauxhall Cross for the next couple of films. In fact, the next time she insists upon traveling abroad, to whatever far-flung location Bond's duties take him, she ought to be killed...but then again, it might be more effective to have her buy it whilst sitting at her own desk. Perhaps they ought to take inspiration from the TMWTGG novel, and have some Double-Oh, who's been missing and presumed dead (just not Bond, in this instance), return back to the fold, brainwashed by Quantum...and actually succeed in his nefarious mission... {:) Now there's a PTS! :v

    Regardless, I reckon her days as the head of MI6 are probably numbered. Or at least I hope so, because having her do it when she's eighty, and still on her globetrotting, bitching out 007 tour will begin to genuinely grate. I like Judi's M, and I'm a fan of her in whatever she does...but enough is enough.

    And there are any number of fine possibilities for actors to replace her; Gambon would be near the top of my own list, as well...
    Check out my Amazon author page! Mark Loeffelholz
    "I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
    "Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
  • Shady TreeShady Tree London, UKPosts: 3,013MI6 Agent
    edited June 2009
    Judi Dench was great casting as M and, as an actor, she's done excellent work with whatever has been written for her. The way she was set up in GE and TND - as a notional "evil queen of numbers" who actually had much more to her than an accountant's mind-set - was very well conceived. A problem with the writing since then - most evident in DAD and QOS - is that M's continual lurching between her attitude of, "Call Bond off - he's a liability," and her other attitude of, "I'll trust him and back him up, because he's my agent and, at the end of the day, I privately respect his instincts," has become rather jarring and cliched. Yes, I think it's time for an assassination of M... an episode which, if Quantum were responsible, would give them real clout, and which would give Dame Judi the honour of a memorable exit from the series. Two films from now, with a new M (I think it should be a man again), we could maybe get a new Moneypenny and a new Q (bring back John Cleese?) as a bonus to keep the nondescript Tanner company.

    My favourite Judi Dench M moments are not her 'emotionally involved' scenes in TWINE, nor even her bristlng exchanges with Brosnan's Bond in her GE debut, but her sparring with Admiral Roebuck in TND... simply because the casting of Geoffrey Palmer as Roebuck offers a 'stunt' rematch for these two fine actors who for over a decade had played together as husband and wife in the Brit TV sitcom, 'As Time Goes By'!
    Critics and material I don't need. I haven't changed my act in 53 years.
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    I love Judi Dench. I think she's one of the greatest actresses of all time; her performance in Notes on a Scandal was extraordinary. However I don't like her as M. Not only does he being M not make sense if CR and QOS are reboots, but ever since she became M, she has spent far too much time away from MI6 headquarters and psychoanalysing Bond. :s I very much hope she goes, and violently if possible.
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • walther p99walther p99 NJPosts: 3,416MI6 Agent
    "and still on her globetrotting, bitching out 007 tour" :)) :)) i totally agree, its almost as if 007 is the ONLY double o agent, shes only concerned with what Bonds doing, does she always have to appear where ever he does? its gotten pretty annoying, i much prefered her in the first two brosnan films, always staying at HQ and only appearing in one or two scenes like M should.
  • Mr MartiniMr Martini That nice house in the sky.Posts: 2,709MI6 Agent
    Dan Same wrote:
    I very much hope she goes, and violently if possible.



    :)) :)) :)) :v :v :v
    Some people would complain even if you hang them with a new rope
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    Judi Dench was a great choice for the Brosnan era,but I feel her time has passed.Lately I feel M is getting far too much screen time.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    Mr Martini wrote:
    Dan Same wrote:
    I very much hope she goes, and violently if possible.



    :)) :)) :)) :v :v :v
    :)) I take it you don't agree? :v
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • LexiLexi LondonPosts: 3,000MI6 Agent
    I wholeheartedly agree that M should go - and to be assassinated is the only way IMRO.

    I would also like to see how this affects the current Bond too - the love of his life died (first pieces of his armor get put back on) - now the one person he probably trusts most, dies (the second, thicker pieces of armor get put on) = an almost impenetrable, closed off 00.

    .....oh the challenge :v
    She's worth whatever chaos she brings to the table and you know it. ~ Mark Anthony
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,924Chief of Staff
    Well, to go completely against the grain.....I'd like to see Dame Judy continue as M for as long as possible.....certainly through the DC Bond films anyway. I know Dame Judy isn't getting any younger.....but her M is great at trying to pull DC's Bond back on track...and failing ;)
    The dynamic between them is super...both are great actors and certainly play well against each other. I just hope they keep getting good scripts.
    YNWA 97
  • Mr MartiniMr Martini That nice house in the sky.Posts: 2,709MI6 Agent
    Dan Same wrote:
    Mr Martini wrote:
    Dan Same wrote:
    I very much hope she goes, and violently if possible.



    :)) :)) :)) :v :v :v
    :)) I take it you don't agree? :v



    I agree 100% with you. If not violently though maybe a little poison in her afternoon tea. Perhaps Bond should of let her drink her icy drink in TWINE -{ After he left the room of course.
    Some people would complain even if you hang them with a new rope
  • Dan SameDan Same Victoria, AustraliaPosts: 6,054MI6 Agent
    Mr Martini wrote:
    Dan Same wrote:
    Mr Martini wrote:



    :)) :)) :)) :v :v :v
    :)) I take it you don't agree? :v
    I agree 100% with you. If not violently though maybe a little poison in her afternoon tea. Perhaps Bond should of let her drink her icy drink in TWINE -{ After he left the room of course.
    :)) That would have been great. :D
    "He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
  • blofeld#1blofeld#1 Posts: 118MI6 Agent
    edited July 2009
    M is a certainly a character. Not a good one though. M must be male.I'm not sexist its just she doesn't seem to put bond in his place.Judi feels like bonds mother.In the older movies and novels bond would know when he had gone out of line. And M would make sure of that. M is in alot of scenes in QOS. M would never be in more than 2 scenes. JUDI MUST GO !
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,484MI6 Agent
    I once thought Loeff's antipathy to M was him sending up the general modern-day antipathy...

    What bugs me is that really, typically of Mickey and Babs, it's stunt casting. It needn't have been, but it is. Get in a well-spoken actress as Bond's boss! But there is little relationship other than her pulling him down a peg or two. They hardly ever really clash over a mission or anything business-like. It's samey.

    The prob also is that it gets a bit Queen Elizabeth I and Francis Drake. When you have a matriach, the antics of the hero suddenly become mere egotistical buffoonery, a side issue. The dynamic in all those old films with Dame Flora Robson or Bette Davis was much the same.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Number24Number24 NorwayPosts: 22,425MI6 Agent
    But I'm all for M staying at Vauxhall Cross for the next couple of films. In fact, the next time she insists upon traveling abroad, to whatever far-flung location Bond's duties take him, she ought to be killed...but then again, it might be more effective to have her buy it whilst sitting at her own desk. Perhaps they ought to take inspiration from the TMWTGG novel, and have some Double-Oh, who's been missing and presumed dead (just not Bond, in this instance), return back to the fold, brainwashed by Quantum...and actually succeed in his nefarious mission... {:) Now there's a PTS! :v

    Regardless, I reckon her days as the head of MI6 are probably numbered. Or at least I hope so, because having her do it when she's eighty, and still on her globetrotting, bitching out 007 tour will begin to genuinely grate. I like Judi's M, and I'm a fan of her in whatever she does...but enough is enough.

    ..


    I wouldn't mind if Dench stayed on (and alive) for all of Craigs films. But if she will leave she should do it the way you suggested. I don't think it should be the PTS. Why not have Bond rescue the other double -0 from captivity in the PTS?
    Then the rescued agent kills M after the title sequence. Perhaps the agent to replace him after the assasination should be a woman?
  • Shady TreeShady Tree London, UKPosts: 3,013MI6 Agent
    The prob also is that it gets a bit Queen Elizabeth I and Francis Drake. When you have a matriach, the antics of the hero suddenly become mere egotistical buffoonery.

    That's an interesting observation. The Elizabeth I / Francis Drake relationship possibly suited Brosnan better than Craig, since Brosnan's Bond was more of a 'pretty boy', a dashing knight of the realm crusading in the service of a matriarch. Even his code name in the PTS of TND is 'White Knight'.

    With Craig, his bond with M (for 'Mother'?) reflects, perhaps, a softer side to his hard-edged Bond; if his boss was a crabby old (male) Admiral rather than a matriarch like Dame Judi, he would, perhaps, seem even more masculine than he already does - a tough ex-SAS type in a male-dominated occupational culture.
    Critics and material I don't need. I haven't changed my act in 53 years.
  • LoeffelholzLoeffelholz The United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
    Number24 wrote:
    But I'm all for M staying at Vauxhall Cross for the next couple of films. In fact, the next time she insists upon traveling abroad, to whatever far-flung location Bond's duties take him, she ought to be killed...but then again, it might be more effective to have her buy it whilst sitting at her own desk. Perhaps they ought to take inspiration from the TMWTGG novel, and have some Double-Oh, who's been missing and presumed dead (just not Bond, in this instance), return back to the fold, brainwashed by Quantum...and actually succeed in his nefarious mission... {:) Now there's a PTS! :v

    Regardless, I reckon her days as the head of MI6 are probably numbered. Or at least I hope so, because having her do it when she's eighty, and still on her globetrotting, bitching out 007 tour will begin to genuinely grate. I like Judi's M, and I'm a fan of her in whatever she does...but enough is enough.

    ..


    I wouldn't mind if Dench stayed on (and alive) for all of Craigs films. But if she will leave she should do it the way you suggested. I don't think it should be the PTS. Why not have Bond rescue the other double -0 from captivity in the PTS?
    Then the rescued agent kills M after the title sequence. Perhaps the agent to replace him after the assasination should be a woman?

    There you are, Number24. We've solved it B-)
    Check out my Amazon author page! Mark Loeffelholz
    "I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
    "Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
  • Shady TreeShady Tree London, UKPosts: 3,013MI6 Agent
    In fact, the next time she insists upon traveling abroad, to whatever far-flung location Bond's duties take him, she ought to be killed...but then again, it might be more effective to have her buy it whilst sitting at her own desk.

    It might be fun to see a 'The Sopranos'-style irony with M dying randomly of heart failure part way through a movie!
    Critics and material I don't need. I haven't changed my act in 53 years.
  • JimmyBond0129JimmyBond0129 United States Posts: 263MI6 Agent
    I think Judi Dench should get killed off eventually but not in Bond 23 because Daniel Craig wants the next Bond film to be lighter in tone. For now they should just do Bond 23 without Dench, they could write M out of the picture the same way they wrote the late Bernard Lee out of For Your Eyes Only :007)

    Maybe Judi Dench could get killed off in Bond 24.
    "I admire your courage, Miss?..." "Trench, Sylvia Trench."

    "I admire your luck, Mister?..." "Bond, James Bond."
  • Thunderbird 2Thunderbird 2 East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,818MI6 Agent
    I think Judi Dench should get killed off eventually but not in Bond 23 because Daniel Craig wants the next Bond film to be lighter in tone. For now they should just do Bond 23 without Dench, they could write M out of the picture the same way they wrote the late Bernard Lee out of For Your Eyes Only :007)

    Maybe Judi Dench could get killed off in Bond 24.


    Erm the reason M was written out of FYEO, was because Mr Lee was too ill to play the character. He sadly died a couple of weeks later. Mr Broccoli refused to recast as a mark of respect to the actor.

    - I think its ok for Dame Judi to appear as the character - I actually prefer her Craig era version of M to the Brosnan one! (I am a Sci Fi fan, I am used to alternate / parallel realities.) However, I do agree the structuring of her appearances in QofS was stretching things a bit. I don't have an issue with her having a wedge of screen time, but in context. - Perhaps getting pressurised by the PM for results? Alternatively seeing more of what goes on in within MI6, and structuring Bond's activities with other 00's? But I agree, not globe trotting on his tail. - Although the reverse of this - M goes abroad (against advice) and Bond has to save her? Did work as a one off in TWINE.

    To me the issue is the overall structure of the story, not just the use of M, or Felix L. - We need to see this Bond in the context of his fellow 00s in the field, and what it is that makes him different from the rest of them. - Something that has never been touched upon properly before. Even in TLD and GE, it was used as a small set up element to the main story to introduce Mr's Dalton and Brosnan respectively.

    And it is time to bring back 'Penny and Q! - Their absence in CR worked, because Bond needed to find himself first. (Both the character, and Mr Craig in the role!) Thats done, as happened with the other actors accepting the tux for the first time.

    We need the traditional elements brought back, but in a new way. - To me Dame Judi's M Mark II is part of that, - but she is only one part. (As long as she wants to continue to be part of it of course!)
    This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
  • JimmyBond0129JimmyBond0129 United States Posts: 263MI6 Agent
    edited June 2009
    I think Judi Dench should get killed off eventually but not in Bond 23 because Daniel Craig wants the next Bond film to be lighter in tone. For now they should just do Bond 23 without Dench, they could write M out of the picture the same way they wrote the late Bernard Lee out of For Your Eyes Only :007)

    Maybe Judi Dench could get killed off in Bond 24.


    Erm the reason M was written out of FYEO, was because Mr Lee was too ill to play the character. He sadly died a couple of weeks later.

    Yes I know Bernard Lee died in pre-production that's why I wrote the late Bernard Lee in previous post. Anyway I know Judi Dench isn't dead yet but that doesn't mean they can't write her out of the next Bond picture, I think Dench is quickly becoming a one-note character when it comes to her part the recent Bond films. I wouldn't mind if she sat this one (Bond 23) out. :D
    "I admire your courage, Miss?..." "Trench, Sylvia Trench."

    "I admire your luck, Mister?..." "Bond, James Bond."
  • chrisno1chrisno1 LondonPosts: 3,634MI6 Agent
    I think Dench is quickly becoming a one-note character when it comes to her part the recent Bond films. I wouldn't mind if she sat this one (Bond 23) out. :D

    Ahahahaha..... at last someone sees it my way!
    Well, with a bit of give and take.....
    Yeh I'm not really talking abour Dame Judi, it's more to do with how M is being interpreted by the writers, her role is becoming too big, to the point it almost overshadows characters who should be more prominent (e.g. Leiter, Mathis, Fields,
    Zuchovsky) and worst of all, 007 isn't showing any respect for her authority (or precious little) hmmmmmm is it because she is a woman????
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