Bond's figting style

walther p99

Since most of the Bond actors have their own fighting style, which is your favorite and why and whats your least favorite. my favorite is Craigs becuase it fits with his special forces background and probably one a secret agent would have.

zaphod

walther p99 wrote:

Since most of the Bond actors have their own fighting style, which is your favorite and why and whats your least favorite. my favorite is Craigs becuase it fits with his special forces background and probably one a secret agent would have.

This is a bit of a pet subject for me, as I have studied Martial Arts for nearly as long as I have been a Bond fan/nerd (I think the two are linked)

I like DC's style, but I know it sounds weird but he may be a bit too skilled. He never looks in trouble to me, and I think that although to quote Fleming " Bond knows the basic holds of Ju-Jitsu" he is by no means an expert. True he founded the first Judo club at an English Public School (Fleming again) he disliked " being thrown about by that Damned Commando chap" every Thursday afternoon (if memory serves) He was also a shoolboy Boxer. Connery always seemed to get it right, the right mix of skills, tenacity and intelligence to out wit a superior foe (Odd Job, Red Grant etc) Dalton was also a breath of fresh air and I remember a cheer going up in the audience during the opening of LTD when he uses the not so gentlemanly Head-butt with great aplomp. I also liked Lazenby for his physicality. I hope to see a fight scene with DC where he clearly is outclassed, but manages to pull it out of the bag. That for me would be great, as we are in danger of Bond being Superman and he is much more than that.

Even his greatest fans would not I feel claim that Roger looked anything but awkward where fisticuffs and action were concerned, with the possible exception of LALD where he just about looks plausable. Brosnan got better with age, although the fight at the end of GE is one of the best in the series (again Bond wins by stealth)

so for me all except one of the Bond actors has brought something different to the overallfighting style of Bond.

Loeffelholz

zaphod wrote:

I hope to see a fight scene with DC where he clearly is outclassed, but manages to pull it out of the bag. That for me would be great, as we are in danger of Bond being Superman and he is much more than that.

Totally with you there, zaphod! It's time for Craigger to meet his own Red Grant, if you will---someone who very nearly gets the better of him, and forces him to do something drastic (and desperate) to beat him...even if it means a (gasp!) gadget, or some other form of 'cheating.'

All part of the Precious Classic Formula^TM...coming soon :007)

Barbel

Loeffelholz wrote:

It's time for Craigger to meet his own Red Grant, if you will---someone who very nearly gets the better of him, and forces him to do something drastic (and desperate) to beat him...even if it means a (gasp!) gadget, or some other form of 'cheating.'

All part of the Precious Classic Formula^TM...coming soon :007)

Call me a Traditionalist, call me out-dated and old-fashioned, but there's just one thing missing- Bond has to beat the main henchman* by using said nasty's main weapon against him, vis Grant's watch, Oddjob's hat, Jaws' teeth...


*Son Of Barbel tells me the current term is "Dragon" (eg Oddjob, Jaws), while that worthy's boss is the "Big Bad" (eg Goldfinger, Drax).

Loeffelholz

Barbel wrote:

Call me a Traditionalist, call me out-dated and old-fashioned

You're a traditionalist! You're out-dated and old-fashioned!...and apparently, we're in agreement on this issue... B-)

Thunderpussy

Also having a history in martial arts I find this trend starting with the Bourne movies of having fight scenes showing very complicated moves,locks and holds very unrealistic and to my eye at least slow. The fight in the hotel in QOS wasn't filmed fast enough (unlike the rest of the film) with arms being left out long enough for the actor to grab and twist it.If they want to show martial arts then they should hire actors with fighting experience,or better still just let the stunt men do it. )

zaphod

Thunderpussy wrote:

Also having a history in martial arts I find this trend starting with the Bourne movies of having fight scenes showing very complicated moves,locks and holds very unrealistic and to my eye at least slow. The fight in the hotel in QOS wasn't filmed fast enough (unlike the rest of the film) with arms being left out long enough for the actor to grab and twist it.If they want to show martial arts then they should hire actors with fighting experience,or better still just let the stunt men do it. )

This is an interesting perspective. I think there is a problem with negotiating between realism and the needs of Cinema. I used to know Paul Weston who did a lot of stunt work on the Bond Movies, particularly with TD. He told me about another project where thay needed a Martial Artist and were blown away by his skills. However when seeing the rushes it was just a blur and somehow looked 'un-real', they needed to slow it down so an audince wasn't baffled. Apparently Bruce Lee was faster than he appeared on film and did the same thing. In a Martial Arts movie I guess that you are 'preaching to the converted' whereby the audience as a minimum has a specific interest in fighting styles, so you can push it further. For a general audience I feel that DC looks convincing and he moves very well which is the most important thing.

One area where I disagree with you is in " letting the stunt men do it" I think that no matter how well it's done it lacks something, and I really like DC's determination to do as much as he possibly can. I agree with you that less complex moves that allowed for a sense of Battle would raise the bar still further.

zaphod

Loeffelholz wrote:

zaphod wrote:

I hope to see a fight scene with DC where he clearly is outclassed, but manages to pull it out of the bag. That for me would be great, as we are in danger of Bond being Superman and he is much more than that.

Totally with you there, zaphod! It's time for Craigger to meet his own Red Grant, if you will---someone who very nearly gets the better of him, and forces him to do something drastic (and desperate) to beat him...even if it means a (gasp!) gadget, or some other form of 'cheating.'

All part of the Precious Classic Formula^TM...coming soon :007)

Oh yes, bring that on for sure. I would rather it was not a gadget, but either the guys own weapon/method, or better still in my view something from 'left field' like the electric fire in GF, or the ladder in GE...

Dan Same

zaphod wrote:

He told me about another project where thay needed a Martial Artist and were blown away by his skills. However when seeing the rushes it was just a blur and somehow looked 'un-real', they needed to slow it down so an audince wasn't baffled. Apparently Bruce Lee was faster than he appeared on film and did the same thing.

{[] I didn't have the honour of being alive during Bruce Lee's lifetime, but as a massive fan of his, I can tell you with relative certainty that, yes, he was so fast that he had to slow down for the cameras. His kicks were also fearsomely strong and he had the ability to deliver up-close punches which were freakishly strong as well. Arguably the greatest Martial Artist of all time. -{

Barbel

Loeffelholz wrote:

Barbel wrote:

Call me a Traditionalist, call me out-dated and old-fashioned

You're a traditionalist! You're out-dated and old-fashioned!...and apparently, we're in agreement on this issue... B-)

...and proud of it too

The Bond Experience

It was mentioned somewhere in print that DC was taught an Israeli commando style of fighting for the two films...any comment from those in the know?

Thunderpussy

The Israeli Commandos use a fighting style called Krav Maga, Which is reported to be the most effective close combat fighting style,But then every system claims to be.

Loeffelholz

Thunderpussy wrote:

The Israeli Commandos use a fighting style called Krav Maga, Which is reported to be the most effective close combat fighting style,But then every system claims to be.

That sounds familiar...I'm trying to recall the fighting style used to train Christian Bale for Batman Begins. That might be the one, but I haven't looked at those DVD extras for a couple of years ;%

Agent_M

That would be the Keysi Fighting Method which i studied for about 4 years till just after Batman begins came out on DVD when suddenly it got extremley expensive, around £1,500 a year and three trips to spain a year to maintain your instuctors certificate.
If you do look at the extras the section where andy and justo show a combo and then its slowed down. After training with them you relise they're actually doing it slowly to start with!

Donald Grant

I agree with Zaphod. However, I think Bond has to show that he is a capable fighter. Not all his foes can be able to almost best him all the time. Bond is a trained expert, only every now and again should he run into someone who is better. When Bond meets someone better is when he should be shown to just scrape by.

Being capable in martial arts is somthing Bond should have in his kit bag. But all the chi or Ki-Ai's in the world won't stop a bullet or a Louisville Slugger (baseball bat). Fighting for your life is fighting for your life, hence the electric heater in the bathtub in Goldfinger.

DG

thesecretagent

Krav Maga is good. A lot of guys on the bodyguard circuit claim to be experts at this - though I don't think they are. Any style of martial arts that takes a bit from everywhere tends to be useful - stands to reason that ju-jitsu and judo are good up close, boxing for in close work is as good as it gets, and any one of the karate styles have useful footwork for distances of a few feet and further. As for martial arts you name it and I've done it. There's good and bad in every style. The thing that matters most is simplicity of style - using very few moves, but doing them as naturally as breathing - and the individual's natural fighting ability. It doesn't matter how fit or athletic you are, without instinct some people will never be good at fighting.

As for Bond - Craig definately has the most accomplished fighting style. Bourne-like, but not as unrealistic. He is a bit too polished for me though. Any martial artist reading this will know deep-down that however much they would like to, they would not get through a round/kumite/fight against a similarily matched opponant as chorigraphed and as perfect as this. However, Connery had the best mix of brawn, brains and instinct for me. A tough brawler with no rules. Give the guy a good beating, take a few yourself, then strangle him with a fire-poker. Nice!

Agent_M

thesecretagent wrote:

There's good and bad in every style. The thing that matters most is simplicity of style - using very few moves, but doing them as naturally as breathing

I agree, we always get students to practice any favorite combos/moves over and over on as many different people as possible so not only does it become second nature but because you've drilled it with guys bigger, smaller, faster or stronger you know how it needs to be tweeked to have the desired effect.

zaphod

thesecretagent wrote:

Krav Maga is good. A lot of guys on the bodyguard circuit claim to be experts at this - though I don't think they are. Any style of martial arts that takes a bit from everywhere tends to be useful - stands to reason that ju-jitsu and judo are good up close, boxing for in close work is as good as it gets, and any one of the karate styles have useful footwork for distances of a few feet and further. As for martial arts you name it and I've done it. There's good and bad in every style. The thing that matters most is simplicity of style - using very few moves, but doing them as naturally as breathing - and the individual's natural fighting ability. It doesn't matter how fit or athletic you are, without instinct some people will never be good at fighting.

As for Bond - Craig definately has the most accomplished fighting style. Bourne-like, but not as unrealistic. He is a bit too polished for me though. Any martial artist reading this will know deep-down that however much they would like to, they would not get through a round/kumite/fight against a similarily matched opponant as chorigraphed and as perfect as this. However, Connery had the best mix of brawn, brains and instinct for me. A tough brawler with no rules. Give the guy a good beating, take a few yourself, then strangle him with a fire-poker. Nice!

Could not agree more. SC managed to convey what he was thinking in those crucial moments when all looks lost. I think DC could pull off the same thing, but he needs a worthy opponent, or a limitation such as an injury (the elevator fight in QOS was very smart once you slowed it down)

thesecretagent

zaphod wrote:

thesecretagent wrote:

Krav Maga is good. A lot of guys on the bodyguard circuit claim to be experts at this - though I don't think they are. Any style of martial arts that takes a bit from everywhere tends to be useful - stands to reason that ju-jitsu and judo are good up close, boxing for in close work is as good as it gets, and any one of the karate styles have useful footwork for distances of a few feet and further. As for martial arts you name it and I've done it. There's good and bad in every style. The thing that matters most is simplicity of style - using very few moves, but doing them as naturally as breathing - and the individual's natural fighting ability. It doesn't matter how fit or athletic you are, without instinct some people will never be good at fighting.

As for Bond - Craig definately has the most accomplished fighting style. Bourne-like, but not as unrealistic. He is a bit too polished for me though. Any martial artist reading this will know deep-down that however much they would like to, they would not get through a round/kumite/fight against a similarily matched opponant as chorigraphed and as perfect as this. However, Connery had the best mix of brawn, brains and instinct for me. A tough brawler with no rules. Give the guy a good beating, take a few yourself, then strangle him with a fire-poker. Nice!

Could not agree more. SC managed to convey what he was thinking in those crucial moments when all looks lost. I think DC could pull off the same thing, but he needs a worthy opponent, or a limitation such as an injury (the elevator fight in QOS was very smart once you slowed it down)

Slow it down? I literally took a sip of pepsi in the cinema and missed it!
It would be good to put DC's Bond up against a real bad ass and have him thrown off the walls for a bit, like an Odd Job or Jaws (but not so comic bookish) then have him slowly gain the advantage through cunning and ruthlessness.

zaphod

thesecretagent wrote:

zaphod wrote:

thesecretagent wrote:

Krav Maga is good. A lot of guys on the bodyguard circuit claim to be experts at this - though I don't think they are. Any style of martial arts that takes a bit from everywhere tends to be useful - stands to reason that ju-jitsu and judo are good up close, boxing for in close work is as good as it gets, and any one of the karate styles have useful footwork for distances of a few feet and further. As for martial arts you name it and I've done it. There's good and bad in every style. The thing that matters most is simplicity of style - using very few moves, but doing them as naturally as breathing - and the individual's natural fighting ability. It doesn't matter how fit or athletic you are, without instinct some people will never be good at fighting.

As for Bond - Craig definately has the most accomplished fighting style. Bourne-like, but not as unrealistic. He is a bit too polished for me though. Any martial artist reading this will know deep-down that however much they would like to, they would not get through a round/kumite/fight against a similarily matched opponant as chorigraphed and as perfect as this. However, Connery had the best mix of brawn, brains and instinct for me. A tough brawler with no rules. Give the guy a good beating, take a few yourself, then strangle him with a fire-poker. Nice!

Could not agree more. SC managed to convey what he was thinking in those crucial moments when all looks lost. I think DC could pull off the same thing, but he needs a worthy opponent, or a limitation such as an injury (the elevator fight in QOS was very smart once you slowed it down)

Slow it down? I literally took a sip of pepsi in the cinema and missed it!
It would be good to put DC's Bond up against a real bad ass and have him thrown off the walls for a bit, like an Odd Job or Jaws (but not so comic bookish) then have him slowly gain the advantage through cunning and ruthlessness.

I think we are in violent agreement. It was on the third attempt and in super -slo-mo before the elevator moves were clear to me. That said, once you could see what went on it looked nice and sharp. In one of my earlier posts I said that we need to see Bond 'in trouble' possibly outclassed and having to rely on every ounce of wit and determination (being bounced off the walls would do nicely) I want to see Bond having to 'dig deep' to survive. The best fights for me often contain those small moments, like Brozzer carefully weighing up the ash tray in before using it in TND, or Connerry using the traitorous girl as a shield in GF (if she was not implicated in luring/trapping our man it would have been too mean/cruel to be cool)

DC has the physical ability, and is more than a subtle enough actor to show us what he is thinking during action. For me when you get that combination of character revealed in, and by, action, in a Bond movie, phew, there is nothing else like it.

thesecretagent

zaphod wrote:

thesecretagent wrote:

zaphod wrote:

Could not agree more. SC managed to convey what he was thinking in those crucial moments when all looks lost. I think DC could pull off the same thing, but he needs a worthy opponent, or a limitation such as an injury (the elevator fight in QOS was very smart once you slowed it down)

Slow it down? I literally took a sip of pepsi in the cinema and missed it!
It would be good to put DC's Bond up against a real bad ass and have him thrown off the walls for a bit, like an Odd Job or Jaws (but not so comic bookish) then have him slowly gain the advantage through cunning and ruthlessness.

I think we are in violent agreement. It was on the third attempt and in super -slo-mo before the elevator moves were clear to me. That said, once you could see what went on it looked nice and sharp. In one of my earlier posts I said that we need to see Bond 'in trouble' possibly outclassed and having to rely on every ounce of wit and determination (being bounced off the walls would do nicely) I want to see Bond having to 'dig deep' to survive. The best fights for me often contain those small moments, like Brozzer carefully weighing up the ash tray in before using it in TND, or Connerry using the traitorous girl as a shield in GF (if she was not implicated in luring/trapping our man it would have been too mean/cruel to be cool)

DC has the physical ability, and is more than a subtle enough actor to show us what he is thinking during action. For me when you get that combination of character revealed in, and by, action, in a Bond movie, phew, there is nothing else like it.

Absolutely - -{

walther p99

wow i had no idea this topic got replys, i thought it just slipped away, but everyone had really interesting comments, i would like to add that even though i prefer Craigs fighting style,which goes along with his job,i agree with some here that showing bond outmatched and have to use his enviroment or win by unconventional means would be fantastic, a prime example that comes to mind is the fight between Indiana Jones and the german mechanic thats so famous for its tenacity, Indy cleary cant beat this guy fairly so resorts to throwing sand in his face,attempted trickey, and is hanging by a thread until his saving grace sneaks up on the mechanic and well you know the rest,thats one of the many reasons i always liked Indy more as a hero then bond,fighting wise Indy was no expert like Bond, just a brawler type and most fights he got in he got his a** kicked but always won conventonally or unconventionally. and the fights Bond had like that are some of the best.

zaphod

walther p99 wrote:

wow i had no idea this topic got replys, i thought it just slipped away, but everyone had really interesting comments, i would like to add that even though i prefer Craigs fighting style,which goes along with his job,i agree with some here that showing bond outmatched and have to use his enviroment or win by unconventional means would be fantastic, a prime example that comes to mind is the fight between Indiana Jones and the german mechanic thats so famous for its tenacity, Indy cleary cant beat this guy fairly so resorts to throwing sand in his face,attempted trickey, and is hanging by a thread until his saving grace sneaks up on the mechanic and well you know the rest,thats one of the many reasons i always liked Indy more as a hero then bond,fighting wise Indy was no expert like Bond, just a brawler type and most fights he got in he got his a** kicked but always won conventonally or unconventionally. and the fights Bond had like that are some of the best.

I meant to say thanks in the first instance for kicking this off as a topic. I have really enjoyed it, and have also been pleasantly surprised by how many people have chosen to comment. Thanks a lot

PPK 7.65mm

I liked how the stunt team on CR approached the unarmed fighting scenes. It showed a good mix of different moves and unlike the Bourne series the editing allowed you see every move during each fight. Also being a Ju Jitsu fighter myself I enjoyed seeing Bond take out Steven Obanno with the rear naked choke. I agree that it would be nice to see Bond use his environmental surroundings to his advantage in the next film, no matter good a marksmen or knife fighter you are someone like Bond would have training in how use what ever he had handy to use as a weapon if disarmed.