Brosnan had a difficult task at trying to bring bond into the the 90's. And i think he exceeded with flying colours. I think Brosnan film were excelent with the exception of DAD. I think he has taken lots of critism when in fact he did a splendid job.
I agree with you loeffeholz, i think Brosnan certaintly did lay the groundwork for Craig in making Bond more human, some of Brosnan's best scenes as Bond are when you get a quick glimpse into his inner turmoil. excellent observation!
I'm speaking specific terms of the growth and deepening of the character. Connery and Moore's Bonds never showed much in the way of self-reflection; Brosnan did, in my own humble opinion.
The closest thing Connery had was that moment on the beach with Domino in Thunderball and maybe some moments in From Russia With Love and Dr.No. These were just a moments of some drama that didn't do much to excel the character, just like Brosnan.
Now, one can debate all day long about whether or not this is a good thing (I happen to think it is), but I think it's there. Similarly, Dalton's portrayal of Bond, and its pronounced variance from the overt silliness of the Moore Era, did in fact lay the groundwork for Brosnan; I'd have thought that would be rather obvious.
You are only saying this because one came before the other and that is an inane logic. To say Brosnan layed the groundwork for Craig is nonsense. Brosnan never had any genuine moments of drama, they were all superficial just like alot of the drama that occured before his time. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH is nothing but superficial dramatic moments with character acting as wooden as day time television. Daniel Craig and Timothy Datlon were the only ones that have shown any true reflection as characters because they are both excellent actors and they were given the opprotunity to do so in far better written scripts.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
[Yawn]
It seems to me, by your exchanges with me and Bondtoys, that you're more interested in personal attacks than with real discussion and debate, and that's too bad, especially since I've taken pains to be polite with you. It's great when new members of this site bring something fresh to the discussion, other than an urge to throw bombs. Sadly, it's becoming more rare.
You might find my logic 'inane' (note that I haven't said such things about you), but I'm obviously not just talking about the fact that one actor preceded another: I've cited specific instances where I had the impression that Brosnan took the character in new directions---and I've also discussed how Dalton was a welcome change from Moore, and there are plenty of examples to cite there, as well.
You disagree with my points because you simply hate Pierce Brosnan (and I've already addressed that as well), which greatly limits the parameters of our discussion, so there's not much point in continuing this.
Of course, some in fandom will not be convinced, and the hyperbolic vitriol will continue. C'est la vie; c'est la guerre :007)
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
: I've cited specific instances where I had the impression that Brosnan took the character in new directions
No you didn't actually. I actually cited specific films (THUNDERBALL and THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH) while you just simply referred to the actors. I find your logic inane because weather you realize it or not, you are just saying one actor laid the groundwork for the another simply because of the order they came in.
You disagree with my points because you simply hate Pierce Brosnan (and I've already addressed that as well), which greatly limits the parameters of our discussion,
Then you need to re-read the key points of my post, so I retierate:
The closest thing Connery had was that moment on the beach with Domino in Thunderball and maybe some moments in From Russia With Love and Dr.No. These were just a moments of some drama that didn't do much to excel the character, just like Brosnan.
Daniel Craig and Timothy Datlon were the only ones that have shown any true reflection as characters because they are both excellent actors and they were given the opprotunity to do so in far better written scripts.
I am critizing more then just Brosnan. I am critizing the series in general because of moments of superficial drama, the Moore and Lazenby eras can be accused just the same. On Her Majesty's Secret Service generally failed in it's moments of drama, save only that moment with Marc Ange Draco and Tracy's death.
By the way, don't shove me into some camps of "unreasonable posters" just because I question your shaky logic.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
(the vodka in the hotel room in TND, his reaction after killing Electra in TWINE, and his performance during his imprisonment in DAD)
These are specific films, and although I'm now bored to tears with repeating myself, I feel that the depth of the character was increased with these moments. You don't. The end.
I find your logic inane because weather you realize it or not, you are just saying one actor laid the groundwork for the another simply because of the order they came in.
Comprende Engles? ) Wow. I'm saying the role evolved from one actor to the next, that this evolution really began with Dalton...and progressed with Brosnan. You disagree. The End.
Your apparent dissatisfaction with the Bond films is saddening, but I respect your opinion, with no illusions of reciprocity. What's most ironic is that we're both obviously Craig fans who enjoy the New Era...and yet you seem to be looking for places to drive wedges, and I'll confess I don't understand that. Must be my inane sense of logic
By the way, don't shove me into some camps of "unreasonable posters" just because I question your shaky logic.
I don't have to shove you there, because you've arrived in that place under your own power, and it will be painfully obvious to most who read this exchange. My logic is inane and shaky; fine. Yours is impeccable and beyond reproach, as is your own obvious command of Spell-Check ) May you one day truly be as enlightened as you already feel you are...
Cheers once again; long life and good health to you, sir. Insert your final retort below, and cherish that self-satisfaction!
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Comprende Engles? ) Wow. I'm saying the role evolved from one actor to the next, that this evolution really began with Dalton...and progressed with Brosnan. You disagree. The End.
Like I said, whether you realize it or not. Obviously, you don't. The End. See ? It's easy to be a jackass such as yourself.
Your apparent dissatisfaction with the Bond films is saddening, but I respect your opinion, with no illusions of reciprocity.
Many of the Bond films are heavily flawed, so what ? Just because I am a Bond fan dosen't mean I have to delude myself into thinking that many of them are good. I have chatted with fans who simply only like the 60's Bond films. I am primarly a fan of Fleming's novels.
What's most ironic is that we're both obviously Craig fans who enjoy the New Era...and yet you seem to be looking for places to drive wedges, and I'll confess I don't understand that. Must be my inane sense of logic
So critical analysis is now "driving wedges" ? Yes, that is more of your "logic" at work. I am not going bend over and take anything James Bond gives me since it's so obvious that is what you do.
I am also not going aknowledge the rest of your snide remarks since you enjoy being such a degenerate, smug, bastard. What you said does not need to be re-posted.
OK, that's it. Rick Roberts, calling someone a "degenate, smug, bastard" is crossing the line. There is no reason to be personally abusive, and if you continue to do so you will be shown the door. This thread is also coming very close to being closed, so let's everyone calm down and act civilized.
OK, that's it. Rick Roberts, calling someone a "degenate, smug, bastard" is crossing the line. There is no reason to be personally abusive, and if you continue to do so you will be shown the door. This thread is also coming very close to being closed, so let's everyone calm down and act civilized.
I hope a "Quartermaster" dosen't wield some sort of authority here because I am surprised such a reprobate would be appointed to such a position. Lecture him, not me.
I hope a "Quartermaster" dosen't wield some sort of authority here because I am surprised such a reprobate would be appointed to such a position. Lecture him, not me.
Actually - it does - for me!
A Quartermaster has been awarded for contributing a lot to the forum and I have great respect for that.
Besides this, Loeffs is a great guy and I call him a friend of mine here on the forum and in my "real" life.
Things, that not many people may say about you here on the board.
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Just a line of support for Loeffelholz ( not that he needs it). When I first joined AJB I was pretty angry at QOS and hated it with a vengence,But after some discussions with other members Loeffelholz being one I calmed down and took on board the comments from all members on the many little things I'd missed from my first viewing and gave the movie a second chance,now although not one of my favorites it's no longer at the bottom of my list.
Like other members I do feel that by all means argue over the movies,actors,editing But lets not get personal,From my own experience on this forum I have put forward my views and have been impressed with the counter ideas from others and being smart enough to know I can't know everthing and even I can get it wrong sometimes,I always look forward to reading some new views on the series.
It may be a tired old quote but can't we all just get along. :007)
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
Sweepy the CatHalifax, West Yorkshire, EnglaPosts: 986MI6 Agent
You forgot to adjust the budgets so that is not an entirely accurate table.
You are absolutely right, Sweepy, but if I corrected the budget figures, the TD movies would be not so good related to their budget and Roberts won't be able to jump on me and Brosnan. And that would be terrible!
Just a line of support for Loeffelholz ( not that he needs it). When I first joined AJB I was pretty angry at QOS and hated it with a vengence,But after some discussions with other members Loeffelholz being one I calmed down and took on board the comments from all members on the many little things I'd missed from my first viewing and gave the movie a second chance,now although not one of my favorites it's no longer at the bottom of my list.
And as much as I like Loeffs personally, I don't find many bright sides with QoS, so it is still is what it is
President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Keep going and I'll just report more of you posts along with your butt budy Bondtoys.
Okay, Rick. Only one of us is calling the other names; I'm just quoting you at this point. Really sorry you insist on this course. I'll not deal with you again---either publicly or privately.
I still wish you well, though. Adieu.
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Keep going and I'll just report more of you posts along with your butt budy Bondtoys.
Okay, Rick. Only one of us is calling the other names; I'm just quoting you at this point. Really sorry you insist on this course. I'll not deal with you again---either publicly or privately.
I still wish you well, though. Adieu.
And I reported this post as well. You really do justice to everything I called you. Are you a masochist or just stupid ? Really, it has to be one or the other.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
I agree with you loeffeholz, i think Brosnan certaintly did lay the groundwork for Craig in making Bond more human, some of Brosnan's best scenes as Bond are when you get a quick glimpse into his inner turmoil. excellent observation!
Well, I certainly appreciate that, walther p99. Brozzer wasn't my favourite Bond---not by a long shot---but I really enjoyed a few of the very Bondian moments he brought to the role. That hotel scene in TND, which I've always regarded as "vodka and regrets," gives the audience a nice insight into the notion of Bond's self-medication (which IMO reaches back into the old literary days of benzedrine and 70 cigarettes a day), and gives us a chance to watch the character reflect in silence, which is a very precious thing in this particular franchise. As I said earlier, I feel it really gives a sort of very effective, cinematic 'shorthand' look at Bond's lifestyle---it struck me, at the time, as feeling very fresh...and my opinion hasn't changed with the passing of time
Check out my Amazon author page!Mark Loeffelholz
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
I agree with you loeffeholz, i think Brosnan certaintly did lay the groundwork for Craig in making Bond more human, some of Brosnan's best scenes as Bond are when you get a quick glimpse into his inner turmoil. excellent observation!
Well, I certainly appreciate that, walther p99. Brozzer wasn't my favourite Bond---not by a long shot---but I really enjoyed a few of the very Bondian moments he brought to the role. That hotel scene in TND, which I've always regarded as "vodka and regrets," gives the audience a nice insight into the notion of Bond's self-medication (which IMO reaches back into the old literary days of benzedrine and 70 cigarettes a day), and gives us a chance to watch the character reflect in silence, which is a very precious thing in this particular franchise. As I said earlier, I feel it really gives a sort of very effective, cinematic 'shorthand' look at Bond's lifestyle---it struck me, at the time, as feeling very fresh...and my opinion hasn't changed with the passing of time
No wait, don't you have more to say about me and how stupid I am in public as well ? "No hard feelings" ? You insult me, you insult me in a casual manner in private and just expect me to kiss and make up ? You are a bastard, plain and simple.
You say that but how would you feel if after someone viciously insulted you public they later said in private "You are stupid and you needed to be a taught a lesson, no hard feelings". I don't imagine you would like it.
Comments
The closest thing Connery had was that moment on the beach with Domino in Thunderball and maybe some moments in From Russia With Love and Dr.No. These were just a moments of some drama that didn't do much to excel the character, just like Brosnan.
You are only saying this because one came before the other and that is an inane logic. To say Brosnan layed the groundwork for Craig is nonsense. Brosnan never had any genuine moments of drama, they were all superficial just like alot of the drama that occured before his time. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH is nothing but superficial dramatic moments with character acting as wooden as day time television. Daniel Craig and Timothy Datlon were the only ones that have shown any true reflection as characters because they are both excellent actors and they were given the opprotunity to do so in far better written scripts.
It seems to me, by your exchanges with me and Bondtoys, that you're more interested in personal attacks than with real discussion and debate, and that's too bad, especially since I've taken pains to be polite with you. It's great when new members of this site bring something fresh to the discussion, other than an urge to throw bombs. Sadly, it's becoming more rare.
You might find my logic 'inane' (note that I haven't said such things about you), but I'm obviously not just talking about the fact that one actor preceded another: I've cited specific instances where I had the impression that Brosnan took the character in new directions---and I've also discussed how Dalton was a welcome change from Moore, and there are plenty of examples to cite there, as well.
You disagree with my points because you simply hate Pierce Brosnan (and I've already addressed that as well), which greatly limits the parameters of our discussion, so there's not much point in continuing this.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
No you didn't actually. I actually cited specific films (THUNDERBALL and THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH) while you just simply referred to the actors. I find your logic inane because weather you realize it or not, you are just saying one actor laid the groundwork for the another simply because of the order they came in.
Then you need to re-read the key points of my post, so I retierate:
I am critizing more then just Brosnan. I am critizing the series in general because of moments of superficial drama, the Moore and Lazenby eras can be accused just the same. On Her Majesty's Secret Service generally failed in it's moments of drama, save only that moment with Marc Ange Draco and Tracy's death.
By the way, don't shove me into some camps of "unreasonable posters" just because I question your shaky logic.
Yes, I did actually:
These are specific films, and although I'm now bored to tears with repeating myself, I feel that the depth of the character was increased with these moments. You don't. The end.
Comprende Engles?
Your apparent dissatisfaction with the Bond films is saddening, but I respect your opinion, with no illusions of reciprocity. What's most ironic is that we're both obviously Craig fans who enjoy the New Era...and yet you seem to be looking for places to drive wedges, and I'll confess I don't understand that. Must be my inane sense of logic
I don't have to shove you there, because you've arrived in that place under your own power, and it will be painfully obvious to most who read this exchange. My logic is inane and shaky; fine. Yours is impeccable and beyond reproach, as is your own obvious command of Spell-Check
Cheers once again; long life and good health to you, sir. Insert your final retort below, and cherish that self-satisfaction!
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Like I said, whether you realize it or not. Obviously, you don't. The End. See ? It's easy to be a jackass such as yourself.
Many of the Bond films are heavily flawed, so what ? Just because I am a Bond fan dosen't mean I have to delude myself into thinking that many of them are good. I have chatted with fans who simply only like the 60's Bond films. I am primarly a fan of Fleming's novels.
So critical analysis is now "driving wedges" ? Yes, that is more of your "logic" at work. I am not going bend over and take anything James Bond gives me since it's so obvious that is what you do.
I am also not going aknowledge the rest of your snide remarks since you enjoy being such a degenerate, smug, bastard. What you said does not need to be re-posted.
I hope a "Quartermaster" dosen't wield some sort of authority here because I am surprised such a reprobate would be appointed to such a position. Lecture him, not me.
Actually - it does - for me!
A Quartermaster has been awarded for contributing a lot to the forum and I have great respect for that.
Besides this, Loeffs is a great guy and I call him a friend of mine here on the forum and in my "real" life.
Things, that not many people may say about you here on the board.
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Like other members I do feel that by all means argue over the movies,actors,editing But lets not get personal,From my own experience on this forum I have put forward my views and have been impressed with the counter ideas from others and being smart enough to know I can't know everthing and even I can get it wrong sometimes,I always look forward to reading some new views on the series.
It may be a tired old quote but can't we all just get along. :007)
You forgot to adjust the budgets so that is not an entirely accurate table.
You are absolutely right, Sweepy, but if I corrected the budget figures, the TD movies would be not so good related to their budget and Roberts won't be able to jump on me and Brosnan. And that would be terrible!
And as much as I like Loeffs personally, I don't find many bright sides with QoS, so it is still is what it is
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
;%
:x
He likes me! He really, really likes me!
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Keep going and I'll just report more of you posts along with your butt budy Bondtoys.
Okay, Rick. Only one of us is calling the other names; I'm just quoting you at this point. Really sorry you insist on this course. I'll not deal with you again---either publicly or privately.
I still wish you well, though. Adieu.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
And I reported this post as well. You really do justice to everything I called you. Are you a masochist or just stupid ? Really, it has to be one or the other.
Well, I certainly appreciate that, walther p99. Brozzer wasn't my favourite Bond---not by a long shot---but I really enjoyed a few of the very Bondian moments he brought to the role. That hotel scene in TND, which I've always regarded as "vodka and regrets," gives the audience a nice insight into the notion of Bond's self-medication (which IMO reaches back into the old literary days of benzedrine and 70 cigarettes a day), and gives us a chance to watch the character reflect in silence, which is a very precious thing in this particular franchise. As I said earlier, I feel it really gives a sort of very effective, cinematic 'shorthand' look at Bond's lifestyle---it struck me, at the time, as feeling very fresh...and my opinion hasn't changed with the passing of time
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
No wait, don't you have more to say about me and how stupid I am in public as well ? "No hard feelings" ? You insult me, you insult me in a casual manner in private and just expect me to kiss and make up ? You are a bastard, plain and simple.
You say that but how would you feel if after someone viciously insulted you public they later said in private "You are stupid and you needed to be a taught a lesson, no hard feelings". I don't imagine you would like it.