I love MR. IT has scenes which are the exact opposite of Qos. Think of the scene where Bond has crashed his glider after evading Jaws and is in the middle of the jungle. he spots a beautiful woman in white and follows her into a chamber where there are many other such women. Distracted by all this beauty (and the villain knows his weakness) he ends up in the pool wrestling an anaconda. But just the moments where he is following the mysterious woman in white to the the waterfall is so great.
There is a great deal of wondrous sensuality in this film and also TSWLM, which I have rarely seen since.
The last scene of this kind that I can recall in any Bond film is the love scene with Elektra King where she asks him how he survives and he says: "I take pleasure - in great beauty."
We are IN those moments with Bond. There is not a single moment in QoS when the viewer is IN the film with him. We are always kept at a distance by his pain and isolation and I do not find this the slightest bit enjoyable.
Bond is not just action, Bond is action+sensuality. Romance and realism are polar opposites and you have to be very careful how you combine them. As grittiness goes up, the space for sensuality goes down. The balance must be restored.
The makers of Bond should forget about entering the territory that Bourne occupies. The Bourne films are not sensual and never were. The pleasure they afford comes from seeing the American intelligence organisations being attacked by their own creations. Thematically, Bourne is actually a remake of Frankenstein - the monster destroys its creator because the creator has meddled with human nature (but mentally rather than physically in the case of Bourne).
Thematically Bond goes back to the medieval romance - he is the knight errant who journeys through the darkling woods, sometimes meeting monsters and slaying them and other times being met by beautiful maidens, some of whom help him and others lead him into peril. The white charger has become a car and the magical talismans given by the good wizard (Q) are the gadgets.
Messing with these very old themes usually does not work. The best films always have one of these themes as its foundation.
Brilliant post! {[] Delicious, not only have you put your finger on exacrtly what thematically diffentraites Bond from Bourne (I love the comparison of Bond tot he medieval romance; I've never thought of it that way before ) but you also put your finger on what I love about Bond; the combination of action and sensuality. I agree with you as well that the love scene with Electra was the truly sensual scene in the Bond films. Finally, you identify what IMO makes MR such an enjoyable film; although interestingly the scene with the anaconda marked IMO the end of MR's good side and the beginning of its OTT bad side (if the climax hadn't been so OTT, I think that MR would have received alot more respect.)
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
What are you talking about ? Watch the film again. Bond found out he was a fraud and he takes advantage of women in the way he did for Vesper, Quantum was the bad guy and that never changed.
I don't need to watch the film again. I don't think the film made it very clear and I didn't buy any emotional discovery Bond may have made at the end of the film.
I wasn't given any indication that being with her 'was an illustration to Bond that vegence for killing was getting him no where.'
Because all she had to look foward to was killing one man, she was consumed with just vengence and had nothing to look foward to.
Well, first of all, like I said before, I didn't buy this revenge plot, but also if you really expect me to believe that Bond, through her, discovered that killing and revenge was getting him nowhere, then he must have learned it pretty late. He certainly didn't learn it before Greene was killed.
It's really obvious, I don't understand how it couldn't be anymore clear cut. She felt shame after betraying Bond and being unable to face him he commited suicide. She did the same thing in the novel.
Except I don't think it is clear cut. Putting aside the novel (I'm talking specifically about the films, not the books), I wasn't given any indication that Vesper's shame was so horrifying that she had to commit suicide.
"Forgive Vespar. She gave her life for you. Um, not ultimately. She topped herself in a fit of shame and mortification that Bond has found her out. Left some daft clues behind. I mean, it's not great. Quantum walk away with the cash, she's killed, Bond nearly killed. Nice old building bites the dust."
Making a dumb summary of something can take away any merit of any film.
Uh, first of all, it's not dumb. Secondly, insulting highly respected members like NP doesn't really endear yourself to the rest of us. That said, I think the summary was perfectly appropiate for CR/QOS.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Uh, first of all, it's not dumb. Secondly, insulting highly respected members like NP doesn't really endear yourself to the rest of us. That said, I think the summary was perfectly appropiate for CR/QOS.
He knew it was a dumb summary. I kindly pointed it out and he had no problem.
Honestly Dan Same, I really don't understand why you are being so stubborn with these films or they are just going way above your ahead ? I have talked about these films with many a Bond fan and they get the emotional development and the films in general, especially something as simple as why Vesper killed herself.
Really, the only incoherent things I have experienced in both Craig films was some largely trivial dialogue and the action in QOS.
I have talked about these films with many a Bond fan and they get the emotional development, especially something as simple as why Vesper killed herself.
It's not that I don't 'get' why she died; it's that I don't believe it. The script may have her doing something for a particular motivation, it doesn't mean that I believe it. I'll give you an example. In DAD, they had an invisible car. It was explained in the film how it worked, but it doesn't mean that a viewer has to believe it. There's a difference between 'getting' something in terms of being able to explain how/why it happened according to the script and 'getting' something in terms of believing it and giving it credence. My not 'getting' it is the latter. Additionally, I just don't buy the so-called emotional development.
Really, the only incoherent things I have experienced in both Craig films was some largely trivial dialogue and the action in QOS.
Again, when I talk about not 'getting' something, I'm not talking from an intellectual point of view. Intellectually, there are very few films which I don't get; most of them were directed by David Lynch.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I have talked about these films with many a Bond fan and they get the emotional development, especially something as simple as why Vesper killed herself.
It's not that I don't 'get' why she died; it's that I don't believe it. The script may have her doing something for a particular motivation, it doesn't mean that I believe it. I'll give you an example. In DAD, they had an invisible car. It was explained in the film how it worked, but it doesn't mean that a viewer has to believe it. There's a difference between 'getting' something in terms of being able to explain how/why it happened according to the script and 'getting' something in terms of believing it and giving it credence. My not 'getting' it is the latter. Additionally, I just don't buy the so-called emotional development.
I am sorry but this sounds like an extreme hypocrisy. You said you want a light hearted, traditionally James Bond film and yet you don't buy the emotional development ? Really, it's all classic movie melodrama that happens in all film of this ilk, and novels to cite the Fleming books, and yet you can't buy it in a Bond film.
I am sorry but this sounds like an extreme hypocrisy. You said you want a light hearted, traditionally James Bond film and yet you don't buy the emotional development ? Really, it's all classic movie melodrama that happens in all film of this ilk, and novels to cite the Fleming books, and yet you can't buy it in a Bond film.
How is it hypocritical? I don't buy it because I think it's badly written. There are things I wouldn't accept in a Bond film, yes, but that's not really the issue here. I think the writing is very poor.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I am sorry but this sounds like an extreme hypocrisy. You said you want a light hearted, traditionally James Bond film and yet you don't buy the emotional development ? Really, it's all classic movie melodrama that happens in all film of this ilk, and novels to cite the Fleming books, and yet you can't buy it in a Bond film.
How is it hypocritical? I don't buy it because I think it's badly written. There are things I wouldn't accept in a Bond film, yes, but that's not really the issue here. I think the writing is very poor.
For the reason I just said yes, it is very hypocritical of you. Vesper taking her emotions to that extreme is the melodrama that fits silly adventure films of this type, the same goes for the novel. It's just as theartrical like the plot, a spy in a high stakes game of poker.
Last post on the matter because we are going nowhere.
For the reason I just said yes, it is very hypocritical of you. Vesper taking her emotions to that extreme is the melodrama that fits silly adventure films of this type, the same goes for the novel.
Last post on the matter because we are going nowhere.
You can think of me whatever you like, although I think you have a pretty black + white view of looking at the world.
Does melodrama fit Bond? To a limited extent. Electra storming up the stairs in TWINE was pretty melodramatic, although I disagree that Bond films are silly adventure films; DN, FRWL, GF, TB, OHMSS and TSWLM are IMO works of art and are not silly. That said, I don't find Vesper to be melodramatic; I just find her to be hyper-annoying. I don't think there is melodrama in CR/QOS and my rejection of it has everything to do with its quality; I think it's terrible.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
You can think of me whatever you like, although I think you have a pretty black + white view of looking at the world.
Pot calling the kettle black.
Does melodrama fit Bond? To a limited extent. Electra storming up the stairs was pretty melodramatic, although I disagree that Bond films are silly adventure films; DN, FRWL, GF, TB, OHMSS, TSWLM are IMO works of art and are not silly. That said, I don't find Vesper to be melodramatic; I just find her to be hyper-annoying. I don't think there is melodrama in CR/QOS and my rejection of it has everything to do with its quality; I think it's terrible.
Fleming didn't even consider his novels serious writing.
Does melodrama fit Bond? To a limited extent. Electra storming up the stairs was pretty melodramatic, although I disagree that Bond films are silly adventure films; DN, FRWL, GF, TB, OHMSS, TSWLM are IMO works of art and are not silly. That said, I don't find Vesper to be melodramatic; I just find her to be hyper-annoying. I don't think there is melodrama in CR/QOS and my rejection of it has everything to do with its quality; I think it's terrible.
Fleming didn't even consider his novels serious writing.
First, what exactly makes you so angry? That I have a different opinion to you or that I disagree with Fleming? I do not consider the Bond films (particularly the ones I mentioned in my previous post) to be silly adventures, and it doesn't matter to me what Fleming thought.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
I wasn't the person who called the other hypocritical. 8-)
Sorry but I think you are when it comes to Bond films, saying The Spy Who Loved Me is a "work of art" just confirmed my belief.
Two things. First, how on earth does that show I'm hypocritical? Secondly, I absolutely do consider it to be a work of art. You don't, fine, but I do.
"He’s a man way out there in the blue, riding on a smile and a shoeshine. And when they start not smiling back—that’s an earthquake. and then you get yourself a couple of spots on your hat, and you’re finished. Nobody dast blame this man. A salesman is got to dream, boy. It comes with the territory." Death of a Salesman
Comments
Well, first of all, like I said before, I didn't buy this revenge plot, but also if you really expect me to believe that Bond, through her, discovered that killing and revenge was getting him nowhere, then he must have learned it pretty late. He certainly didn't learn it before Greene was killed.
Except I don't think it is clear cut. Putting aside the novel (I'm talking specifically about the films, not the books), I wasn't given any indication that Vesper's shame was so horrifying that she had to commit suicide.
Uh, first of all, it's not dumb. Secondly, insulting highly respected members like NP doesn't really endear yourself to the rest of us. That said, I think the summary was perfectly appropiate for CR/QOS.
He knew it was a dumb summary. I kindly pointed it out and he had no problem.
Honestly Dan Same, I really don't understand why you are being so stubborn with these films or they are just going way above your ahead ? I have talked about these films with many a Bond fan and they get the emotional development and the films in general, especially something as simple as why Vesper killed herself.
Really, the only incoherent things I have experienced in both Craig films was some largely trivial dialogue and the action in QOS.
It's not that I don't 'get' why she died; it's that I don't believe it. The script may have her doing something for a particular motivation, it doesn't mean that I believe it. I'll give you an example. In DAD, they had an invisible car. It was explained in the film how it worked, but it doesn't mean that a viewer has to believe it. There's a difference between 'getting' something in terms of being able to explain how/why it happened according to the script and 'getting' something in terms of believing it and giving it credence. My not 'getting' it is the latter. Additionally, I just don't buy the so-called emotional development.
Again, when I talk about not 'getting' something, I'm not talking from an intellectual point of view. Intellectually, there are very few films which I don't get; most of them were directed by David Lynch.
I am sorry but this sounds like an extreme hypocrisy. You said you want a light hearted, traditionally James Bond film and yet you don't buy the emotional development ? Really, it's all classic movie melodrama that happens in all film of this ilk, and novels to cite the Fleming books, and yet you can't buy it in a Bond film.
For the reason I just said yes, it is very hypocritical of you. Vesper taking her emotions to that extreme is the melodrama that fits silly adventure films of this type, the same goes for the novel. It's just as theartrical like the plot, a spy in a high stakes game of poker.
Last post on the matter because we are going nowhere.
Does melodrama fit Bond? To a limited extent. Electra storming up the stairs in TWINE was pretty melodramatic, although I disagree that Bond films are silly adventure films; DN, FRWL, GF, TB, OHMSS and TSWLM are IMO works of art and are not silly. That said, I don't find Vesper to be melodramatic; I just find her to be hyper-annoying. I don't think there is melodrama in CR/QOS and my rejection of it has everything to do with its quality; I think it's terrible.
Pot calling the kettle black.
Fleming didn't even consider his novels serious writing.
First, what exactly makes you so angry? That I have a different opinion to you or that I disagree with Fleming? I do not consider the Bond films (particularly the ones I mentioned in my previous post) to be silly adventures, and it doesn't matter to me what Fleming thought.
Sorry but I think you are when it comes to Bond films, saying a film such as The Spy Who Loved Me is a "work of art" just confirmed my belief.