Violence in AVTAK
sambwoy
Berkshire, EnglandPosts: 90MI6 Agent
According to Wikipedia and the book 'Martinis, Girls and Guns', Roger Moore quoted AVTAK as his least favourite of his Bonds, but not because of it being considered a weak or outlandish film, but in part of it he actually refers to the sequence where Zorin killing all his men in the mine shaft. Hmm. Maybe AVTAK was treading into Timothy Dalton territory.
It's rather interesting that he picked up on that moment out of all the things that AVTAK usually got slated for by the critics. The fact that he was in the film might have had something to with it- it could have just been one scene that he remembered during filming.
Are there others who actually have a particular favourite (or least favourite) Bond for whatever reasons that don't normally pass others by?
It's rather interesting that he picked up on that moment out of all the things that AVTAK usually got slated for by the critics. The fact that he was in the film might have had something to with it- it could have just been one scene that he remembered during filming.
Are there others who actually have a particular favourite (or least favourite) Bond for whatever reasons that don't normally pass others by?
Comments
Funny why Sir Rog always mentioned that scene and not the one were Zorin dumps that Russian spy into a tunnel to be brutally chopped up to bits by a propeller, that was a bit too much for a film like A View To A Kill. When Zorin machine gunned his men in the mine, that was actually very tame in comparison.
I heard he was reluctant too but that scene was not as cold blooded as letting Sandor fall off that building in The Spy Who Loved Me.
It's one of the lightest Bond movies in the series. I think when I wrote a review of it last year, I mentioned that 007 doesn't actually kill a single person - please correct me if I am wrong.
1. PTS, no suggestion any of the Russian skiers die. The helicopter crashes after Bond fires a flare into it.
2. Eiffel Tower, no deaths.
3. Warehouse fight, no suggestion the two men are killed, one is definately alive
4. Horse chase, no deaths.
5. Stacy's house, all the goons escape, Bond pelts them with rock salt
6. San Francisco, no deaths on Bond's hands
7. The mine, Bond doesn't even get to kill Mayday
8. Golden Gate Bridge, Zorin slips (yes, SLIPS) the other two villains die as they fight for a rouge stick of dynamite.
AVTAK is just awful in the excitement stakes. The villains can kill as many people as the like (Tibbet, Yip, Aubergine, the Russian agent, a non-compliant business partner, a city administrator, oodles of mine workers, Jenny Flex and Pan Ho) but James Bond isn't allowed to kill anybody????
He's got a f@~#$%& LICENCE TO KILL
Sir Roger was well past his sell by date in 1985. I think he had a little too much influence on the series by now. Even in the wild and wacky Wood / Gilbert days of the late '70s he was still pretty tough, with a halo, an eyebrow and a smile.
I just don't understand having a Bond film where the hero is such a sissy.
So when this horrifying massacre occurs, Bond shows almost no malice towards his adversaries. That's what makes it a sour point. We already know these genetic mutations are psychos (Gogol tells us that) but even by psychopath standards the massacre is wee bit hard to take.
It's actually, for me, something of a turning point for 007, because the set is quite grandiose and cries out for a pitched battle a la YOLT or TSWLM, instead we get the same characters doing all the killing - and not always for / against 007, very often for / against themselves. Witness LTK, GE, TND, TWINE.
I really dislike AVTAK. Sorry, guys, but there it is.
p.s. Sir Roger's autobiography is very candid when discussing people he has worked with who he doesn't like. Grace Jones however is an exception and he mentions an incident where he got fed up with her playing loud music in her dressing room "one day I snapped, marched into her dressing room and pulled the plug out. I returned to my room and flung a chair at the wall. The dent is still there."
oooo Roger
A bit more of that in AVTAK wouldn't have gone amiss
Maybe that's why he hated it so much
p.p.s. Alison Doody... why was she not given more screen time?
Over the top yes and unessecary but I don't think it was very violent.
Rog said he didn't get along with Yaphet Kotto too.
You know that's a very interesting assessment. At first I thought to myself "Wait a minute. Of course Bond kills people in AVTAK" But then after reading your points I agree. I can see the difference when he only kills in an indirect manner. Good point.
Though I will say this in the case of Zorin's death. Bond may not have pushed or thrown him off strictly speaking, however he certainly didn't lift a finger to help him during the time he was desperately trying to hang onto the bridge before he finally slipped.
Hmm. This gives me an idea for another thread.
Yes, he was also borderline with his taste, but at least funny he was... {:)
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Maybe we should just start a thread for that all on its own!
Oh yeah! There's that bit as well, of course.
Both scenes are tame anyway. James Bond never dwelled on excessive violence- the violence was always implied rather than seeing it full-on, I suppose on the belief that its more effective that way rather than having an Evil Dead-esque in-your-face gore scene which looks really fake. The propellor moment in AVTAK is just a slight peg down from the snowcutter scene from OHMSS.
On the Moonraker DVD special features in the cast/crew interviews in Rio, Moore mentions that the films are not particularly violent- he was making this point in the light of what he was saying that Switzerland at the time was the only country in which children were not allowed to see the Bond films, which struck him as a bit odd, as it would anybody I suppose.
Excessive violence, whilst striking for the franchise, is not really part of the Bond formula in the same way excessive sex and language was never part of the Carry Ons. Both film series teter on these respective elements but never fully explore them. It's the other action films that handle the stronger violence better, and that's how it should stay.
Making Bond a more realistic character and in the realms of the films in the '80s I think was a step in the wrong direction for Bond, and the onslaught of '80s action movies didn't help things. FYEO and Octopussy would have been great vehicles for Dalton or any actor that would have replaced Moore- the scripts for each film would have balanced the portrayal perfectly and not get panned for being dour or taking the Bond stories too seriously.
Being more down to earth was the right move for Bond in the 80's but the problem was, everything was just too bland. All the plots were just "meh". As bad as the seventies films got, at least there was some element of colour to hang on to.
I wonder why they didn't plead with him to have Bond kick Zorin in the face while he was clinging to the bridge? That's probably what Timothy Dalton would have done. But after having begged Roger so much in Locque's case perhaps they didn't want to push their luck.
James Bond- Licence To Kill
That could explain why FYEO is often underrated. I often see it as a very rigid, inflexible Bond film because Roger is steered constantly by the producers to be a more down-to-earth 007.
I might be controversial in saying this, but I'd watch Moonraker over FYEO any time if I had to choose between the two. Moonraker is at the complete opposite end--it doesn't take itself too seriously. No Bond should.
I can understand Moore's doubts with the death of Locque. Literary Bond, maybe, but not Roger Moore Bond.
James Bond- Licence To Kill
Is there anyone on this site besides from me that has AVTAK as their number 1 Bond film?
1 - Moore, 2 - Dalton, 3 - Craig, 4 - Connery, 5 - Brosnan, 6 - Lazenby
AVTAK is almost my number 2, it's basically on par with LALD for me... but AVTAK just edges it because Max Zorin is just awesome! - I wish the 'favourite films' section was back
1 - Moore, 2 - Dalton, 3 - Craig, 4 - Connery, 5 - Brosnan, 6 - Lazenby
I have been to Amberley where the mine scenes were shot- and some of the tipper wagons still have the 'Zorin' logos on the sides.
The fire engine chase is good but could have been dealt with a bit more seriously and with more destruction. By comparison, it conjures up thoughts of the chase from Con Air- one of my favourite action films, and was thinking it could be a good way to kill off Zorin by ultimately getting his head crushed in a rock compressor. The way its played off in the end is that its seems to have been produced totally to get laughs.
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
As for the fire truck, that scene did fit the film, but I didn't care for it. In fact, I really don't care for AVTAK, I think it is the worse Bond film ever. But that's for another thread.