Timothy Dalton: Hard-edged??

Higgins

Ok, as it is the peak of the summer, I decided to put in LTK and have an enjoyable evening with Bond on Key West.
I actually consider LTK to be the better TD movie, to my taste the villain(s) in TLD are terrible, the end battle is one of the weakest, the scenes in Afganistan are simply boring and TDs performance is weak, too.
Now we have some people here, who can't get enough to praise TD's performance to be close to Fleming and being hard-edged and blah.

I have turned off the DVD after 40 minutes because I can't stand to see the man whining:

1. His puppy eyes when the topic comes to his previous marriage (and keep in mind how sensible the similar situation has been done by Roger in FYEO)
2. When seeing Della on the bed, the desperate "Della" scream (how Sean would have handled this??)
3. His wet eyes when seeing Della dead and Felix injured (may I recall how Roger said goodbye to Lisl in FYEO)
4. The "desperation" in his acting, when his license is revoked. I would like to imagine, how cool and well Daniel Craig would have put this on the table. Dalton looks like a whining schoolboy in front of the director.

As said, I finished the DVD after that scene and I am seriously asking myself, what people saw, when they are praising TD to be closest to Fleming (his 007 never bursted in tears) and hard-edged.

Or do we have another DSOAPP version of the 2 TD movies over here?

Barbel

Bondtoys wrote:

Or do we have another DSOAPP version of the 2 TD movies over here?

Sorry to be so out of date with the jargon, but what's DSOAPP?

blueman

I think we've agreed on this before, bt, but yeah Dalton's performance in LTK especially just screams of Oprah-style histrionics, not Bond at all IMO. The film itself is like a TV movie of the week Bond film or something, and Dalton does nothing to elevate it from that pappy quagmire. Easily the nadir of the series and a Bond and Bond film best forgotten. (jeez, am I cranky today or what, lol )

Loeffelholz

Barbel wrote:

Bondtoys wrote:

Or do we have another DSOAPP version of the 2 TD movies over here?

Sorry to be so out of date with the jargon, but what's DSOAPP?

From the AJB Glossary:

"DSOAPP Edition, The - Suggested by AJB member Bondtoys - Based on the conspiracy theory/hypothesis that Quantum of Solace, the most polarizing Bond film ever, secretly consists of two versions: a good one, and the 'Dog S**t On A Paper Plate' Edition---which everyone who truly hates the film must have seen."

Perhaps The Reviled QoS^TM isn't the only film to be released in this ultra-super-secret format B-)

Higgins

Loeffs, don't tell me that you have seen the good ones 8-)

Dan Same

Bondtoys wrote:

Loeffs, don't tell me that you have seen the good ones 8-)

Is there a good version of either Dalton film? :v )

dr. evan-gelist

Dalton brought Bond back into the real world. If Dalton didn't accept the Bond role then we would have had to listen to Sir Roger once more. Not to mention the Bond girls having to creep into bed next to the wrinkly oap.

Rick Roberts

I think Dalton was just given overall crappy scripts with mundane situations. However he was an exceptional Bond and yes, did reflect Fleming's character because of the obvious world weariness. For example during the Koskov mission in THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS was great character development. Look at Bond's attitude before he goes after that KGB Sniper, he is simply fed up with his job, fed up with the killing he as to do. He takes pleasure where ever he can because his job gets to him. That is indeed pure Fleming.

This is not to say he was flawless. The fact of the matter is when you are James Bond on the screen you have to show some charisma and humor simply because films are a visual and audio medium. You have to entrace people. Even if Dalton got a stronger script I frankly doubt he could have pulled off a more likeable Bond by a great margin. I say this not because of just these Bond films but other works Dalton has been in, he's a bit of an introvert.

Craig supassed Dalton in this respect by many fold because he had real charisma and sex appeal.

Higgins

dr. evan-gelist wrote:

Dalton brought Bond back into the real world. If Dalton didn't accept the Bond role then we would have had to listen to Sir Roger once more. Not to mention the Bond girls having to creep into bed next to the wrinkly oap.

Taking aside your usual immature remarks, fact is, that Roger stepped out officially after AVTAK without leaving space to return

Loeffelholz

Bondtoys wrote:

Loeffs, don't tell me that you have seen the good ones 8-)

I might've ;%

zebond

LTK was the product of Dalton's want to bring the series back to Fleming roots, blended with the writer's inability to capture exactly what it was that made Fleming's Bond Bond. They were about halfway between cinematic Bond and literary Bond and the result was, admittedly, less than satisfactory. Was it a complete debacle? IMO, no. As with all the films in all of their respective eras, you have to go into it knowing what to expect.

Dalton, to date, captures Fleming's Bond (again IMO) not because of the writing, because frankly that had nothing to do with him, but because of his understated performance. Craig has embodied it without question, and do to possibly some of the best writing in the history of the franchise, tends to steal the credit. But when you compare literary Bond to the subtle moments in the Dalton films, very often overlooked, there is no difference.

Craig is literary Bond for the fans of cinematic Bond who enjoy seeing a Bond embody the spirit of the novels. Dalton was literary Bond for the fans of literary Bond who enjoyed seeing a Bond attempt fruitlessly to capture Fleming in the midst of writers who seemed to have not gotten the memo.

Loeffelholz

But it was a significant step in the right direction for us Flemingists, who still wince at the missteps in Dalton's films...such an improvement over what had been, IMHO, and it blazed a trail for Brozzer (whatever one thinks of him), who brought 007 back into vogue after a looooong hiatus...

dr. evan-gelist

Bondtoys wrote:

dr. evan-gelist wrote:

Dalton brought Bond back into the real world. If Dalton didn't accept the Bond role then we would have had to listen to Sir Roger once more. Not to mention the Bond girls having to creep into bed next to the wrinkly oap.

Taking aside your usual immature remarks, fact is, that Roger stepped out officially after AVTAK without leaving space to return

fact is, Sir Roger retired in December of '85, a full 6 months after AVTAK was screened. It was agreed by everyone that his pension money was only 7 years away. I do admit though that some of his films were good, especially the Daltonesque For Your Eyes Only.

Higgins

dr. evan-gelist wrote:

Dalton brought Bond back into the real world. If Dalton didn't accept the Bond role then we would have had to listen to Sir Roger once more. Not to mention the Bond girls having to creep into bed next to the wrinkly oap.

sorry, your point above was that Roger was meant to return if TD did not accept the role, which is absolute nonsense.

In the 1985s, there was hardly 007 on Video, no DVDs, only cinema and the shelf life of a 007 blockbuster in cinema was counted in months. So, it had good reasons, that RM officially announced his retirement 5 months after the UK premiere. Keep also in mind, that premieres in Asia etc have been long after the UK premieres. Casting for the new role begun in 1986 and TD was officiall announced 5th October 1986, only days after he accepted the role (he was only the 2nd choice as PB had other commitments with Remington Steele).

I will never praise AVTAK to be a masterpiece and yes, RM was too old for the role then and probably in Octopussy.
Calling FYEO Daltonesque is totally ridiculous. It was a reboot after MR and showed the more realistic side, which you always claim TD having brought for the role (which is also wrong in a historical context though). And by the way, I could not see RM crying in FYEO.

Your immature remarks on RMs age are totally out of place and highly annoying.
Roger Moore is a fine persion who deserves our respect, especially for his great achievements as a UNICEF ambassador, something that he takes extremely serious. So, take your embarrassing insults to somewhere else, but here on the board, they are simply not acceptable!

Thank you very much for your time.

blueman

Moore was too old to play Bond convincingly from FYEO onwards, whatever other wonderous attributes he might have. JMHO.

Rick Roberts

blueman wrote:

Moore was too old to play Bond convincingly from FYEO onwards, whatever other wonderous attributes he might have. JMHO.

I think Rog should have left after Moonraker.

dr. evan-gelist

I admit Sir Roger would have been better if he had been born a few years later. But it has to be said that he wouldn't have been Flemings choice.

DaltonFan1

I must admit I've only seen the good versions of TLD and LTK which are two of the best bonds. Dlaton's bond thinks for himself(decides not to kill phoney sniper & goes after Sanchez) and he puts on a serious face, something RM and and PB could never do and even Connery struggled with. He is quite clearly the one that Fleming would have chosen and had his films not come at a time when there was no demand for Bond, they would obviously have been far more successful. I think it's also worth noting that GE, Brosnan's best film by a country mile, was written with the intention of Dalton playing the lead.
And of course, what have the producers done with the new bond? they've had him become more aggressive and independent, just like Dalton, who incidentally did pretty much all his own stunts so we get close-ups of him holding on to a speeding truck and water-skiing without the skis.

dr. evan-gelist

totally agree DaltonFan1. Let the Sir Roger fans get on with watching North Sea Hijack, and SpiceWorld.

Higgins

DaltonFan1 wrote:

I think it's also worth noting that GE, Brosnan's best film by a country mile, was written with the intention of Dalton playing the lead.

?:) You realize, that there was a 6-year gap between LTK and GE

DaltonFan1 wrote:

just like Dalton, who incidentally did pretty much all his own stunts so we get close-ups of him holding on to a speeding truck and water-skiing without the skis.

Well, we all know, how these closeups are done without the star doing his own stunts. If you think, that TD was waterskiing without skis, I believe that Fatima Blush did similar in NSNA :v
Thruth is, that they are filmed closeup on a raft or sledge, a common movie trick.
Another example was the Hercules ramp in TLD, which has been a truck with a dummy ramp.
I would assume similar for Dalton on the truck

dr. evan-gelist

We all know Dalton would have done all the stunt scenes had he had his own way.

Dan Same

dr. evan-gelist wrote:

We all know Dalton would have done all the stunt scenes had he had his own way.

Really? And we know this how?

Higgins

Well, I am always smiling, when I am reading about Stars doing their own stunts )
The problem is not so much the courage or fitness of the actor, it is simply too dangerous for the production: A shooting day costs 10s of thousands of Dollars minimum. There are working many people on the set and the danger, that the Star gets hurt with his own stunt could ruin the entire production if something goes wrong.

So, it simply does not make sense!

Dan Same

Bondtoys wrote:

Well, I am always smiling, when I am reading about Stars doing their own stunts )
The problem is not so much the courage or fitness of the actor, it is simply too dangerous for the production: A shooting day costs 10s of thousands of Dollars minimum. There are working many people on the set and the danger, that the Star gets hurt with his own stunt could ruin the entire production if something goes wrong.

So, it simply does not make sense!

Exactly. There is no way on earth that the Bond producers would have allowed Dalton to do his own stunts. And nor should they. I think the stuntwork should be left to the professionals.

Higgins

dr. evan-gelist wrote:

We all know Dalton would have done all the stunt scenes had he had his own way.

Dr. you are getting funny and I honestly like it.

First of all you agree with claims, that TD is so hard-edged, that he did his own stunts. And now, that this turns out to be false you come up with something like this.

I am really fascinated about such a level of fandom. Makes TD definitely larger-than-life (in your eyes )

dr. evan-gelist

there is a documentary on u tube- the making of the living daylights- that says the production team were nervous with Dalton doing the land rover scene in Gibraltar.

Higgins

....for good reasons.
As far as I remember from that documentary, Dalton was belted on the top of the Range Rover, imho a minor dangerous stunt, if the driver does not go over the edge....

dr. evan-gelist

it is silly really, but Dalton did want it to be more realistic. So fair play to him. and hes still alive.

Higgins

regarding documentaries: I am always fascinated about the quantum of lies, which are told there:

"This has been far my best production, that I have been on. My co-Star (insert name and gender) is the funniest and nicest person to work with. I admire his/her professionalism and we are best friends. The director has such a passion and skill, which I have never experienced before. I could do my own lines and my own stunts and I am so grateful, that the producers gave me the opportunity to give my part to the movie."

Now Dan Same: Your turn to "translate" all this

DaltonFan1

Bondtoys wrote:

dr. evan-gelist wrote:

We all know Dalton would have done all the stunt scenes had he had his own way.

Dr. you are getting funny and I honestly like it.

First of all you agree with claims, that TD is so hard-edged, that he did his own stunts. And now, that this turns out to be false you come up with something like this.

I am really fascinated about such a level of fandom. Makes TD definitely larger-than-life (in your eyes )

I have seen various documentaries about the TD movies and bond stunts in general in which different people wax lyrical about Dalton's insistence that he would do numerous stunts that otherwise would have been done by a double. In this sense he should be applauded for making scenes more real. It was probably one of the stunt supervisors on TLD who said he couldn't believe TD's enthusiasm. I think on the same doc RM tells us how he always preferred not to do his own stunts as it didn't give him a thrill, not because it greatly endangered him.
I believe the doc is on certain versions of Goldeneye DVD as an extra.

DaltonFan1

Bondtoys wrote:

....for good reasons.
As far as I remember from that documentary, Dalton was belted on the top of the Range Rover, imho a minor dangerous stunt, if the driver does not go over the edge....

Obviously there are certain stunts that require a professional stunt man, which Dalton would not have been allowed to do, but he would always insist on doing the less dangerous ones himself, unlike Brosnan who did none of his own stunts and Moore who couldn't even climb down a ladder with a dummy on his back in AVTAK, albeit he was quite old by then.