The best argument for sticking to a PPK or PPK-like design, in my opinion, is that the fixed-barrel design is the best type to use with a suppressor - and Bond, as a sometimes-sneak assassin, would find that a necessity. The added weight of a suppressor to a tilt-lock barrel on a 9mm and higher could create reliability problems for our hero, and the lower-caliber weapons are easier to suppress anyway, given that the report is quieter to begin with.
but pretty punchy for such a small frame. I'd be inclined to go for the nine - and have a large calibre, large frame and longer barrelled alternative for when the going gets heavy.
Not a problem in fact.
The Storm uses a rotating barrel locking system provides robustness for using powerful calibers.The system boasts robust locking lugs to ensure the best distribution of locking forces when firing. A superb handgun.
Can't vouch for the storm but I've used many compact .40's (Glocks, H&K, Sig, Walther and S&W) in training and found them all to be more punchy than 9mm, which counts for nothing on the first shot, but everything on the second.
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but pretty punchy for such a small frame. I'd be inclined to go for the nine - and have a large calibre, large frame and longer barrelled alternative for when the going gets heavy.
Not a problem in fact.
The Storm uses a rotating barrel locking system provides robustness for using powerful calibers.The system boasts robust locking lugs to ensure the best distribution of locking forces when firing. A superb handgun.
Can't vouch for the storm but I've used many compact .40's (Glocks, H&K, Sig, Walther and S&W) in training and found them all to be more punchy than 9mm, which counts for nothing on the first shot, but everything on the second.
Interesting. It's a personnal taste probably. I use a Colt .38 Special since 10 years. Well since my unit bought the Storm I shoot with it whenever I can. I love it.-{
"Training is useful, but there is no substitute for experience."
It's all hypothetical isn't it? I mean, Bond would carry what he wanted to. I was issued with Brownings, Sigs and the odd PPK in the army and had to get on with it. Later in private security it was mainly Glocks, not because they are particularly great (although I think they are) but because of whatever contract the company had best negotiated. On a stint in Iraq we carried M4's, manufactured through Colt. That was the contractor's deal, but this also meant that we carried Colt sidearms too - in the form of 1911 .45's. These are great pistols, but archaic in terms of modern development. And seven shots never feels quite enough these days.
Anyway, welcome aboard Stalin's Tomb - you'll waste a lot of important time here. )
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I've shot the full size Px4. It's the most comfortable .40 I've ever shot. Very soft recoil.
Still like my .40 Hi-power more, but that's just me. You know that Rohrbaugh R9 that Camille uses could be a good Bond gun. Double action only, no saftey or other protruberances. Very expensive, easily concealed and pretty cool looking. Not a straight blow-back though and full 9mm, maybe a silencer wouldn't work so well.
LoeffelholzThe United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
Totally still agree with you on the PPK, tsa B-) The only thing I'd 'tweak' is having Q Branch give him some specialised ammo for it :v
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"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
Some don't work at all, ie they work for the first round, then either jam or fail to cycle. Some work well, but need manual cocking and cycling by working the slide. The British army Brownings I used worked well with the small, lightweight moderator, but were not very quiet, or had to be manually cycled with the heavier moderator, and were much quieter, but the foresight on these were completely blocked from view by the moderator so only good for thirty feet or so. I believe the Colt 1911 .45 works well with some set-ups, but wears heavily. The big .45 bullet lends itself to a silencer extremely well because of its relatively low speed.
Don't you mean suppressor? A moderator is a completely different thing, especially within Brit mil-speak. Browning BHP SDs within the UK had suppressors by Omega and they were huge, but the suppressed round and ported gasses would make the BHP cycle perfectly anyway with the springs used. Royal Ordnance got a few HK P7M13SDs in, they were excellent and fun, but dirty. A suppressed PPK is not a good set-up.
What we are missing in this thread is the fact that Bonds gun needs to look good and have great lines and have a certain panache. These modern polymer framed Berettas, Glocks, Sigs and Walthers don't have that. Nowadays, he would certainly go custom if Fleming were still writing. Craigs Bond would probably go with the PPS and lose it.
I'm always ready to learn more ASP9mm. Sound-moderator, "silencer" and supressor. I was always taught moderator in the army, but then after ten years I was still only acting sergeant when I left so probably didn't listen that much! Please explain the difference. On my own FAC I have three slots for a "sound-moderator" for use with both .22lr and 7.62mm and .30-06 rifles. They are made up internally of rings, washers and on both big-bores, a fibrous wadding. They are all very effective, even the .30-06. However, I have had to experiment a lot with ammunition.
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Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
Apologies thesecretagent, going from the pistols that you mention you had access to, I thought we must have walked in the same circles. You have me at a disadvantage as I only know of three Regiments that used that combination of BHP, 226 and PPK and even then the PPK would have been a rarity amongst two of those as the 228 was very popular. The term silencer is hardly ever used in military circles as it is a 'movie' term. Suppressor does exactly that, suppresses sound. Moderators are usually confined to cometition pistols. Did you ever compete nationally or internationally? We may know each other. I used to teach small arms combat across the board and amongst many Regiments.
Personally, I know of only one regiment that uses a combination of all three weapons mentioned. The ones I've used spanned over ten years, two regiments and two further detachments.
I've never heard of moderators being used in competition (British at least) as they have never been legal on an FAC for pistols. I competed nationally as a civillian with semi-auto pistols and revolvers in PP1 and PP2 back in the day. Also full-bore rifle, iron sights and silluette disciplines. And I've just started to help develop a new discipline through the NRA using primarily the new GSG-5 (semi-auto MP5 copies in .22). It's very much like the Police Pistol disciplines, but accounts for 20+ rds and multiple magazine changes - great fun. I used to teach CQB both in service and in private security so it is quite possible we may have met. As for service details - regiments, tours and dates etc - I'd be glad to chat, but obviously not here. PM me if you like.
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Personally, I know of only one regiment that uses a combination of all three weapons mentioned. The ones I've used spanned over ten years, two regiments and two further detachments.
I've never heard of moderators being used in competition (British at least) as they have never been legal on an FAC for pistols. I competed nationally as a civillian with semi-auto pistols and revolvers in PP1 and PP2 back in the day. Also full-bore rifle, iron sights and silluette disciplines. And I've just started to help develop a new discipline through the NRA using primarily the new GSG-5 (semi-auto MP5 copies in .22). It's very much like the Police Pistol disciplines, but accounts for 20+ rds and multiple magazine changes - great fun. I used to teach CQB both in service and in private security so it is quite possible we may have met. As for service details - regiments, tours and dates etc - I'd be glad to chat, but obviously not here. PM me if you like.
Moderators in the role of sound suppressor certainly would not be used, moderators in the role of compensator would though, but the terms we are using get lost in translation through different services and disciplines (like yomps and tabs, heads and toilets, mess and galley, snorkers and.... er well, whatever green army called snorkers.... etc etc.). The three regs that used that combo of pistols were 22SAS, SBS and 14 Int. Although the former two were usually on secondment to the third. The PPK was never that popular with us, some female ops liked it, but most could conceal a BHP just as well. Problem with most pistols nowadays is they are just too fat.
PPK's were often carried "off-duty" over the water by some, myself included. More often than not BHP's were standard fair. In my day SBS were a seperate entity from the army and I only ever came across them in NATO exercises that involved a navy presence. I ended up driving for 14 int comp for a short while and came across a few from both 22 and 21. They didn't seem to have any standard armoury - one chap even carried a .357 revolver.
I'm not sure if you had dealings with any pathfinders but silenced (supressed?!?) PPK's were in the kit, as well as both BHP's and SIGs - depending where you were really.
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Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
Even off duty we still had the standard BHP. Det had standard issue pistols 2x Brownings (one carried in car with 20rd mag and one on body), as well as the PPK. A few Sigs crept in later. The SAS and SBS were never actually part of 14 Int, but they did spend time there as a skills sharing excercise, so any pistols they carried usually came from their own QM stores. The Gazelle pilots seconded to 14 Int had all manner of sidearms, from S&W third generation pistols to Walther P38s. Scary thing was, they usually had no training in their use at all until Det operators offered to show them the range and have a proper play.
Never had any dealings with Pathfinders, except if they were volunteers and went through training before going over the water, but apart from the obvious use of different terms as I mentioned earlier (you could aways spot a bootneck), you had no idea what peoples backgrounds actually were for security reasons.
Not being at all familiar with the various units of the UK armed services, I have followed your conversation with great interest, but little comprehension....
It seems to me that the fact that the Wather PPK was aquired and issued to the UK military, gives it real provenance as THE Bond gun. While I prefer the .25 Beretta and the S&W Centennial, the PPK was chosen by Fleming as Bond's preferred handgun - and it should remain so.
My question for you vets is this? Did the issued UK PPK's bear any special markings or were they stock Walthers, and if you can recall, from what vintage? For instance, did they have black or brown grips, white highlighted sights or black.
I for one would love to know the reasons that any military force would purchase a bulk load of .32 pocket pistols - even really nice ones like the PPK.
It's going back twelve years for me, but I definately remember brown/tan stocks (checkered) and walther markings. Standard serial numbers as far as I'm aware on the working parts and barrels. Definately black/blued sights and nothing highlighted/illuminated. I would say seventies/early eighties in manufacture. Weapons are a strange commodity in the British armed forces I've used BHP's for instance that must have been older than most soldiers using them. I don't imagine many PPK's were requisitioned, but as long as they cycled and fired straight, they're probably still in use today.
From reading his posts ASP9mm will have more technical details on the models etc than myself.
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It's going back twelve years for me, but I definately remember brown/tan stocks (checkered) and walther markings. Standard serial numbers as far as I'm aware on the working parts and barrels. Definately black/blued sights and nothing highlighted/illuminated. I would say seventies/early eighties in manufacture. Weapons are a strange commodity in the British armed forces I've used BHP's for instance that must have been older than most soldiers using them. I don't imagine many PPK's were requisitioned, but as long as they cycled and fired straight, they're probably still in use today.
From reading his posts ASP9mm will have more technical details on the models etc than myself.
That pretty much sums it up to be honest. The PPK was used in Diplomatic Protection in the early 1970s but certainly wasn't being used by them or the MOD when Fleming wrote it into Dr No. They had no military markings unlike the BHP and other pistols that were issued and were certainly models made between 1965 to 1971 only. The PPK was never the main sidearm unless deep deep concealment was called for and any chance of you being discovered as being armed would have been an instant compromise. And if that was the case, you may as well of then been unarmed as you would never see them coming. It was most certainly a last ditch back-up gun where the alternative was to be unarmed. There is also a myth that the P5c was used by the SAS or Det, but this is not the case as they were to be issued to pilots. The P5c was never issued to special forces.
As far as them being used today, almost certainly, but in a very minor last ditch role and possibly by female operators moreso than male. You will find them predominantly within SRR which is the successor to 14 Int (Det) and is the only SF to have female operators. No doubt these will still be the same pistols originally bought in during the late 1960's and again will be a last ditch item.
I just picked up a First Edition Walther PPS in 9mm. It's an excellent pistol and a more-than-worthy successor to the PPK. It's light, compact, thin and so stupid accurate it's almost no fun to shoot. I'd love to see Bond armed with one in 23.
The PPK is also a fine weapon, and I have loads of fun shooting mine, but we have to admit it's a bit antiquated, and seems somewhat incongruous that after getting done using all his state-the-art intelligence equipment, Bond then grabs his 90 year-old pistol to go out in the field. Again, the PPK is a classic design, but it's 7.65mm (or .380ACP) round is pretty underpowered by today's standard. Sure, Bond's markmanship can ensure he puts the rounds where he needs to, but why deliberately carry a small, weak bullet if you don't have to? Also, they're also not terribly common in military/police pistols anymore, so finding ammo locally would be problematic for him. The 9mm, OTOH, is the closest thing to a Universal pistol round there is. It'd make a lot more sense for Bond to carry a gun chambered for that round.
The PPS also has a smooth, consistent trigger that's a lot more pleasant (IMHO) than the PPK's extra-heavy first trigger pull. Sure, a professional like Bond can easily compensate for the heavy DA pull, but, again, why should he if he doesn't have to? The PPS's sights are larger and easier to acquire than the PPKs, as well.
The P99 (and P99C) are both excellent guns as well--I love mine--but they're too wide (to accommodate a double-stack mag) to conceal easily. I could see Bond carrying one when he's leading the commando raid on the bad guy's volcano-lair, but not easily stashing one under a tuxedo (I don't care good his tailor is).
The ASP has bucket-loads of savior faire, but is more a curiosity than a serious combat pistol. That Guttersnipe sight really doesn't work that well, and both of mine have very snappy recoil. On top of that, they're not made anymore. It wouldn't make much sense for Q-branch to send Bond into the field with a gun that will take them months of browsing Gunbroker (and upwards of three grand) to replace when he inevitably loses it.
What the PPS doesn't have is an iconic design like the PPK, but then neither does any other pistol introduced after 1990 (or am I missing something), and it's still distinctive enough.
Anyway, that's my case for the PPS. I expect any minute now MGM will contacting me to be armorer on Bond 23. Lemme just wait by the phone here...
The image of Q surfing Gunbroker and sweating out the last minutes of an auction trying to snag an ASP cracks me up. "Really 007, try not to lose this one! There aren't that many left in the world!" )
7.65mm is .32 auto. .380 ACP is 9mm short - if I'm not mistaken.
I've always thought the P99 too thick and slabby for concealed carry as well. A nice weapon but I have pretty big hands and find I get pinched with enthusiastic mag changes. I've not used an ASP, but tried out a custom .45 1911 with a guttersnipe sight and it took a bit of getting used to.
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7.65mm is .32 auto. .380ACP is 9mm short - if I'm not mistaken.
Spot on. I believe Fleming went with 7.65mm as it was the most commonly available round in Europe at the time. I mean on the civvy market too not necessarily military. 9mm certainly holds that position today, worldwide.
.................................
Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
Wow, that's really not my thing. I almost stepped on an 8 foot plus King Cobra in Sri Lanka if that counts...
Good job you didn't, he'd of nailed you for sure. I nearly got nobbled by one I was bagging at the WM Safari Park some months back, the wally that was helping me let go of the head as I was pushing it's body into the bag. I've never moved so fast in my life.
It raised up a good three feet off the ground and got a surfboard in its face. I ran like hell and it went off into the brush. I wasn't too keen to go back for the board though... Apparently I was lucky to have seen one, I didn't really see it like that myself...
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Asp9mmOver the Hills and Far Away.Posts: 7,535MI6 Agent
Yeah, they are rare, few people get to bop 'em with a surfboard ) Just imagine how high a sixteen footer can raise itself off the ground. Walking through a plantation and coming eye to eye with one of those would be amazing. They have an intelligence that I've only ever seen in the Black mamba, but to a much greater extent. Brilliant snakes.
PPK 7.65mmSaratoga Springs NY USAPosts: 1,253MI6 Agent
Personaly I am all for the PPS being introduced provided that the armory company hired by MGM and Eon can rent one. Over at www.imfdb.org the site administators (One of whom is a weapons master in Hollywood.) say the reason why a certain gun is used alot in films or television is due to its avaibilty to the weapons master, and how well it workes when converted to fire blanks.( This is the reason why so many 9mm guns appear in movies/tv as 9mms are easier to covert to blank fire than .45ACP or .40 S&W.) Granted I don't know much about the technical side of guns, however since the PPS has already appered in an episode of Burn Notice, than I would guess it works okay when converted to fire blank ammo.
Also I would not mind seeing Bond use the P99 for bigger battles and the PPK for covert carry, this was done in Raymond Benson's books for a long time, and to anyone with enough understanding of guns knows that this set up makes good since. Even thought most military/ bodyguard/ law enforcement types are more likely to carry two weapons in the same caliber.
Comments
Can't vouch for the storm but I've used many compact .40's (Glocks, H&K, Sig, Walther and S&W) in training and found them all to be more punchy than 9mm, which counts for nothing on the first shot, but everything on the second.
http://apbateman.com
Interesting. It's a personnal taste probably. I use a Colt .38 Special since 10 years. Well since my unit bought the Storm I shoot with it whenever I can. I love it.-{
Anyway, welcome aboard Stalin's Tomb - you'll waste a lot of important time here.
http://apbateman.com
Still like my .40 Hi-power more, but that's just me. You know that Rohrbaugh R9 that Camille uses could be a good Bond gun. Double action only, no saftey or other protruberances. Very expensive, easily concealed and pretty cool looking. Not a straight blow-back though and full 9mm, maybe a silencer wouldn't work so well.
Thanks ! -{
Ah ! The Sig Sauer P226...What a gun ! {:)
I still think the PPK is about perfect for Bond though. He should simply pick up the more interesting stuff along the way.
http://apbateman.com
"I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
"Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
Don't you mean suppressor? A moderator is a completely different thing, especially within Brit mil-speak. Browning BHP SDs within the UK had suppressors by Omega and they were huge, but the suppressed round and ported gasses would make the BHP cycle perfectly anyway with the springs used. Royal Ordnance got a few HK P7M13SDs in, they were excellent and fun, but dirty. A suppressed PPK is not a good set-up.
What we are missing in this thread is the fact that Bonds gun needs to look good and have great lines and have a certain panache. These modern polymer framed Berettas, Glocks, Sigs and Walthers don't have that. Nowadays, he would certainly go custom if Fleming were still writing. Craigs Bond would probably go with the PPS and lose it.
http://apbateman.com
I've never heard of moderators being used in competition (British at least) as they have never been legal on an FAC for pistols. I competed nationally as a civillian with semi-auto pistols and revolvers in PP1 and PP2 back in the day. Also full-bore rifle, iron sights and silluette disciplines. And I've just started to help develop a new discipline through the NRA using primarily the new GSG-5 (semi-auto MP5 copies in .22). It's very much like the Police Pistol disciplines, but accounts for 20+ rds and multiple magazine changes - great fun. I used to teach CQB both in service and in private security so it is quite possible we may have met. As for service details - regiments, tours and dates etc - I'd be glad to chat, but obviously not here. PM me if you like.
http://apbateman.com
Moderators in the role of sound suppressor certainly would not be used, moderators in the role of compensator would though, but the terms we are using get lost in translation through different services and disciplines (like yomps and tabs, heads and toilets, mess and galley, snorkers and.... er well, whatever green army called snorkers.... etc etc.). The three regs that used that combo of pistols were 22SAS, SBS and 14 Int. Although the former two were usually on secondment to the third. The PPK was never that popular with us, some female ops liked it, but most could conceal a BHP just as well. Problem with most pistols nowadays is they are just too fat.
I'm not sure if you had dealings with any pathfinders but silenced (supressed?!?) PPK's were in the kit, as well as both BHP's and SIGs - depending where you were really.
http://apbateman.com
Never had any dealings with Pathfinders, except if they were volunteers and went through training before going over the water, but apart from the obvious use of different terms as I mentioned earlier (you could aways spot a bootneck), you had no idea what peoples backgrounds actually were for security reasons.
Not being at all familiar with the various units of the UK armed services, I have followed your conversation with great interest, but little comprehension....
It seems to me that the fact that the Wather PPK was aquired and issued to the UK military, gives it real provenance as THE Bond gun. While I prefer the .25 Beretta and the S&W Centennial, the PPK was chosen by Fleming as Bond's preferred handgun - and it should remain so.
My question for you vets is this? Did the issued UK PPK's bear any special markings or were they stock Walthers, and if you can recall, from what vintage? For instance, did they have black or brown grips, white highlighted sights or black.
I for one would love to know the reasons that any military force would purchase a bulk load of .32 pocket pistols - even really nice ones like the PPK.
BTW
Nice to have you back ASP9mm!
Bond’s Beretta
The Handguns of Ian Fleming's James Bond
From reading his posts ASP9mm will have more technical details on the models etc than myself.
http://apbateman.com
That pretty much sums it up to be honest. The PPK was used in Diplomatic Protection in the early 1970s but certainly wasn't being used by them or the MOD when Fleming wrote it into Dr No. They had no military markings unlike the BHP and other pistols that were issued and were certainly models made between 1965 to 1971 only. The PPK was never the main sidearm unless deep deep concealment was called for and any chance of you being discovered as being armed would have been an instant compromise. And if that was the case, you may as well of then been unarmed as you would never see them coming. It was most certainly a last ditch back-up gun where the alternative was to be unarmed. There is also a myth that the P5c was used by the SAS or Det, but this is not the case as they were to be issued to pilots. The P5c was never issued to special forces.
As far as them being used today, almost certainly, but in a very minor last ditch role and possibly by female operators moreso than male. You will find them predominantly within SRR which is the successor to 14 Int (Det) and is the only SF to have female operators. No doubt these will still be the same pistols originally bought in during the late 1960's and again will be a last ditch item.
It's good to be back. Bloody cold here though.
The PPK is also a fine weapon, and I have loads of fun shooting mine, but we have to admit it's a bit antiquated, and seems somewhat incongruous that after getting done using all his state-the-art intelligence equipment, Bond then grabs his 90 year-old pistol to go out in the field. Again, the PPK is a classic design, but it's 7.65mm (or .380ACP) round is pretty underpowered by today's standard. Sure, Bond's markmanship can ensure he puts the rounds where he needs to, but why deliberately carry a small, weak bullet if you don't have to? Also, they're also not terribly common in military/police pistols anymore, so finding ammo locally would be problematic for him. The 9mm, OTOH, is the closest thing to a Universal pistol round there is. It'd make a lot more sense for Bond to carry a gun chambered for that round.
The PPS also has a smooth, consistent trigger that's a lot more pleasant (IMHO) than the PPK's extra-heavy first trigger pull. Sure, a professional like Bond can easily compensate for the heavy DA pull, but, again, why should he if he doesn't have to? The PPS's sights are larger and easier to acquire than the PPKs, as well.
The P99 (and P99C) are both excellent guns as well--I love mine--but they're too wide (to accommodate a double-stack mag) to conceal easily. I could see Bond carrying one when he's leading the commando raid on the bad guy's volcano-lair, but not easily stashing one under a tuxedo (I don't care good his tailor is).
The ASP has bucket-loads of savior faire, but is more a curiosity than a serious combat pistol. That Guttersnipe sight really doesn't work that well, and both of mine have very snappy recoil. On top of that, they're not made anymore. It wouldn't make much sense for Q-branch to send Bond into the field with a gun that will take them months of browsing Gunbroker (and upwards of three grand) to replace when he inevitably loses it.
What the PPS doesn't have is an iconic design like the PPK, but then neither does any other pistol introduced after 1990 (or am I missing something), and it's still distinctive enough.
Anyway, that's my case for the PPS. I expect any minute now MGM will contacting me to be armorer on Bond 23. Lemme just wait by the phone here...
I've always thought the P99 too thick and slabby for concealed carry as well. A nice weapon but I have pretty big hands and find I get pinched with enthusiastic mag changes. I've not used an ASP, but tried out a custom .45 1911 with a guttersnipe sight and it took a bit of getting used to.
http://apbateman.com
http://apbateman.com
Spot on. I believe Fleming went with 7.65mm as it was the most commonly available round in Europe at the time. I mean on the civvy market too not necessarily military. 9mm certainly holds that position today, worldwide.
Playing with venomous snakes in South Africa (Cape cobras). Back over to Tanzania soon to play with some more.
http://apbateman.com
Good job you didn't, he'd of nailed you for sure. I nearly got nobbled by one I was bagging at the WM Safari Park some months back, the wally that was helping me let go of the head as I was pushing it's body into the bag. I've never moved so fast in my life.
http://apbateman.com
http://apbateman.com
Also I would not mind seeing Bond use the P99 for bigger battles and the PPK for covert carry, this was done in Raymond Benson's books for a long time, and to anyone with enough understanding of guns knows that this set up makes good since. Even thought most military/ bodyguard/ law enforcement types are more likely to carry two weapons in the same caliber.