Never say never again

I think its a good bond movie better than alot of eon movies, i dont know why so many bond fans hate it and hate mcclory like it or not spectre belongs to mcclory he come up with it, blofeld, and largo, eon were assholes to try to stop jack swartzman and kevin mcclory from making never say never again. In fact never say never again was the best bond movie of the 1980s untill timothy dalton came along in 87.
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Comments

  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    edited September 2010
    Actually weather McClory came up with SPECTRE or Blofeld is debatable. Fleming seems have named the orginization, McClory may have simply came up with the concept of a criminal organization. Anyway it dosen't matter if McClory did create either, that still dosen't give Never Say Never Again any more credibility; The bomb hijacking is stupid, the set decor is gawdy, the music stinks to high heaven, and the action sequences are mundane. Simply put, NSNA is a boring and dumb film.
  • thesecretagentthesecretagent CornwallPosts: 2,151MI6 Agent
    I don't dislike it actually. Some of the soundtrack is a bit busy, but all in all it works out alright. Shock horror! A black Felix - but look at Felix now... Also, my old house is visible as we watch the nuclear missiles in flight over Cornwall and St. Micheal's Mount so I like pointing that out to anybody who will listen... Bad, bad, bad - no magazine in the guard's AK in the tower scene - sack the armourer/special effects guy from ever working again for that one... X-(
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  • Denzil2222Denzil2222 Posts: 77MI6 Agent
    Im not saying never say never again was the best but its 100 times better than you only live twice, the man with the golden gun and moonraker, eon should have been trying to make better bond movies not trying to stop mcclory remake thunderball.
  • CJ007GoldeneyeCJ007Goldeneye LondonPosts: 587MI6 Agent
    What are you on?
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 37,866Chief of Staff
    Ricardo C. wrote:
    Actually whether McClory came up with SPECTRE or Blofeld is debatable.

    It's a lot more than debatable- entire court cases have been held over that point

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_McClory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Whittingham http://homecinema.thedigitalfix.co.uk/content.php?contentid=62153 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1512950.stm

    the first of which Fleming's friend Ivar Bryce (also involved in the whole sorry mess) felt contributed markedly to Fleming's first heart attack and Bryce was obliged to alter the text of his book You Only Live Once owing to legal issues surrounding the case.

    Indeed a book has been written covering the whole Thunderball/Never Say Never Again/Warhead 2000 etc story-

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battle-Bond-Second-Robert-Sellers/dp/0955767008
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_for_Bond

    At this point in time, it's only possible to say that the idea of SPECTRE and Blofeld was thought up by some combination of:

    Ian Fleming (IMHO the names are certainly his)
    Kevin McClory
    Jack Whittingham
    Ivar Bryce
    Ernest Cuneo (muse)
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 37,866Chief of Staff
    PS and I hate the soundtrack of NSNA other than the title song, which isn't the worst!
  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    Ricardo C. wrote:
    Actually whether McClory came up with SPECTRE or Blofeld is debatable.

    It's a lot more than debatable- entire court cases have been held over that point

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_McClory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Whittingham http://homecinema.thedigitalfix.co.uk/content.php?contentid=62153 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/1512950.stm

    the first of which Fleming's friend Ivar Bryce (also involved in the whole sorry mess) felt contributed markedly to Fleming's first heart attack and Bryce was obliged to alter the text of his book You Only Live Once owing to legal issues surrounding the case.

    Indeed a book has been written covering the whole Thunderball/Never Say Never Again/Warhead 2000 etc story-

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battle-Bond-Second-Robert-Sellers/dp/0955767008
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_for_Bond

    At this point in time, it's only possible to say that the idea of SPECTRE and Blofeld was thought up by some combination of:

    Ian Fleming (IMHO the names are certainly his)
    Kevin McClory
    Jack Whittingham
    Ivar Bryce
    Ernest Cuneo (muse)


    I know about the whole Thunderball issue and Sellers' book though I never read the book. The way I see it is Fleming brought this down on himself, he should have told Whittingham and McClory that he was going to turn Thunderball into a book.
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Fleming had sort of done this before - Moonraker had been set up as a possible movie back in the 50s and when it fell through it became the novel (the plot is suitably large scale) but in that case of course only Fleming had thunk it up and maybe he thought he could just wing it on this one.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    Fleming had sort of done this before - Moonraker had been set up as a possible movie back in the 50s and when it fell through it became the novel (the plot is suitably large scale) but in that case of course only Fleming had thunk it up and maybe he thought he could just wing it on this one.


    Fleming seemed very determined to make James Bond appear on some visual medium since he wrote Casino Royale; He sold the television rights of that book to CBS. As you said, Fleming attempted to have Moonraker adapted into a film. Fleming again turned back to television and what eventually became Doctor No was originally suppose to be a pilot for a television series called Commander Jamaica. Lastly, the For Your Eyes Only compilation were all stories that were suppose to be for a James Bond TV show. I would like to have seen some of these ideas come to fruition and as I said before, I would have loved to have seen Moonraker intact directed by Alfred Hitchcock during the 1950's.
  • SilentSpySilentSpy Private Exotic AreaPosts: 765MI6 Agent
    I actually like Never Say Never again. Of course, since it's a remake of one of the best if not the best Bond films it's not great. It's a better send off to the Connery Bond than Diamonds are Forever. Although, one could argue that Thunderball was the final true Connery Bond. Since You Only Live Twice was the first of the fantasy over the top Bond films. Besides Never Say Never Again has Kim Basinger!
    "Better late than never."
  • LoeffelholzLoeffelholz The United States, With LovePosts: 8,998Quartermasters
    I've always enjoyed NSNA more than most here...IMO, it was light-years better than OP...but it was nice to have two Bond films in one summer :007)
    Check out my Amazon author page! Mark Loeffelholz
    "I am not an entrant in the Shakespeare Stakes." - Ian Fleming
    "Screw 'em." - Daniel Craig, The Best James Bond EverTM
  • zaphodzaphod Posts: 1,183MI6 Agent
    Denzil2222 wrote:
    I think its a good bond movie better than alot of eon movies, i dont know why so many bond fans hate it and hate mcclory like it or not spectre belongs to mcclory he come up with it, blofeld, and largo, eon were assholes to try to stop jack swartzman and kevin mcclory from making never say never again. In fact never say never again was the best bond movie of the 1980s untill timothy dalton came along in 87.


    I both agree and disagree. In my view it is a terrible film, and a poor Bond movie- (so cheap looking, truly awful muzak...) but it's still preferable the 80's Bonds.
  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    The most embarassing part of Never Say Never Again by far is Bond's video game battle and I would have possibly forgiven it if it wasn't written so badly. Twice Bond loses so Largo can explain the electric shocks which could have been easily explained at begining, but the writers desired to kill some more time, then all of a sudden Bond beats Largo with no explanation. Sadly, just one example of the film's lazy writing. All you have to do is look at the Bond picture released that year to see how Bond actually OUTWITS his enemy, exposing Kamal Khan's loaded dice.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I agree Ricardo C. IMHO, the biggest problem with NSNA was the long winded script which took forever to get going ( Its one of the very few Bond films I've watched in the cinema where I've noticed how uncomfortable the seat was,when you start noticing your sore arse instead of the movie,That's always a bad sign!), and the score was uninspired elevator music, I hardly watch it when it's on TV. Only have the DVD to complete the collection.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    I agree Ricardo C. IMHO, the biggest problem with NSNA was the long winded script which took forever to get going ( Its one of the very few Bond films I've watched in the cinema where I've noticed how uncomfortable the seat was,when you start noticing your sore arse instead of the movie,That's always a bad sign!), and the score was uninspired elevator music, I hardly watch it when it's on TV. Only have the DVD to complete the collection.


    It's really shocking to see who was behind the score; Micheal Legrand did some great work for two Steve Mcqueen films, The Cincinnati Kid and Le Mans. This crap he did for Never Say Never Again is on par with Jimmy Page's work for Death Wish II and III.
  • BarbelBarbel ScotlandPosts: 37,866Chief of Staff
    The producers did have the good sense to ask John Barry to write the music, and he had the good taste to decline.
  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    Barbel wrote:
    The producers did have the good sense to ask John Barry to write the music, and he had the good taste to decline.

    And Richard Donner also had the good sense to decline the director's chair.
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    I actually enjoyed quite a few things about NSNA. I was thrilled to see Connery playing Bond again, and I liked him in this film far more than I did in Diamonds Are Forever. Klaus Maria Brandauer was quirky and sinister as Largo and I thought he was terrific. In my opinion, Bernie Casey was the best Felix Leiter in any Bond film (I was so impressed I took his name!), and I felt Barbara Carrera was wonderful as Fatima Blush! All that being said, the film had some glaring weaknesses - a truly terrible score, including that awful title song, some cheesy looking special effects, very weak versions of M and Q, and a wasted appearance by Max Von Sydow as Blofeld. Despite its problems, I'd put NSNA above just about every Roger Moore Bond movie, with the possible exception of For Your Eyes Only.
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    edited September 2010
    I actually enjoyed quite a few things about NSNA. I was thrilled to see Connery playing Bond again, and I liked him in this film far more than I did in Diamonds Are Forever. Klaus Maria Brandauer was quirky and sinister as Largo and I thought he was terrific. In my opinion, Bernie Casey was the best Felix Leiter in any Bond film (I was so impressed I took his name!), and I felt Barbara Carrera was wonderful as Fatima Blush! All that being said, the film had some glaring weaknesses - a truly terrible score, including that awful title song, some cheesy looking special effects, very weak versions of M and Q, and a wasted appearance by Max Von Sydow as Blofeld. Despite its problems, I'd put NSNA above just about every Roger Moore Bond movie, with the possible exception of For Your Eyes Only.

    Brandauer actually did a terrific job but the way the character is written he seems to disdant from the entire film. Unlike the original Largo who thought of very little but the mission at hand, this one is just sort of a nut who is obessed with Domino. He just did not make a strong central villian. In general, none of the characters seem to be involved in this film at all. Nigel Small-Fawcett should have been in some sort of parody film of James Bond or a Pink Panther adventure, Fatima Blush was enjoyable but hardly threatening or intelligent and more suited for a episode of the 60's Batman TV show, and M is nothing more than a comic foil. The only ones that seemed to be involved in this film were Bond and Domino but they are not enough to carry this film. Lorenzo Semple Jr. wrote the screenplay for this film and he was a key writer and script supervisor for the Batman TV show and it shows. Also I am curious as what you found so impressive of Benard Cassey's Leiter, I found him to as big of a non-entity as Max Von Sydow's Blofeld.

    I will admit one thing, this could have been worse. The film McClory wanted to do back in the late 1970's had a script written by Connery and Len Deighton and it's stupidity was beyound belief. Let give you an example: A shark with robotic limbs.
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    I can't disagree with your point that Brandauer's Largo seemed somewhat disinterestd in the mission, or that Fatima Blush didn't appear to be very bright (but still dangerous), but I found them both to be enjoyable characters nevertheless. As for Bernie Casey's Felix Leiter, I was impressed by his physicality (he was one of the few Leiter's he appeared to me that he could actually take on Bond in a fight), he seemed to have a familiar and somewhat playful relationship with 007, and he actually helped Bond out of a couple of potentially hairy situations. Or maybe it was just that Connery and Casey had a nice chemistry together. Whatever the reason, Bernie Casey's portrayal of Leiter stands as my favorite. I wish Jeffrey Wright had been given more to do, because I think he has the potential to be an intriguing Felix Leiter as well.
    Ricardo C. wrote:
    I actually enjoyed quite a few things about NSNA. I was thrilled to see Connery playing Bond again, and I liked him in this film far more than I did in Diamonds Are Forever. Klaus Maria Brandauer was quirky and sinister as Largo and I thought he was terrific. In my opinion, Bernie Casey was the best Felix Leiter in any Bond film (I was so impressed I took his name!), and I felt Barbara Carrera was wonderful as Fatima Blush! All that being said, the film had some glaring weaknesses - a truly terrible score, including that awful title song, some cheesy looking special effects, very weak versions of M and Q, and a wasted appearance by Max Von Sydow as Blofeld. Despite its problems, I'd put NSNA above just about every Roger Moore Bond movie, with the possible exception of For Your Eyes Only.

    Brandauer actually did a terrific job but the way the character is written he seems to disdant from the entire film. Unlike the original Largo who thought of very little but the mission at hand, this one is just sort of a nut who is obessed with Domino. He just did not make a strong central villian. In general, none of the characters seem to be involved in this film at all. Nigel Small-Fawcett should have been in some sort of parody film of James Bond or a Pink Panther adventure, Fatima Blush was enjoyable but hardly threatening or intelligent and more suited for a episode of the 60's Batman TV show, and M is nothing more than a comic foil. The only ones that seemed to be involved in this film were Bond and Domino but they are not enough to carry this film. Lorenzo Semple Jr. wrote the screenplay for this film and he was a key writer and script supervisor for the Batman TV show and it shows. Also I am curious as what you found so impressive of Benard Cassey's Leiter, I found him to as big of a non-entity as Max Von Sydow's Blofeld.

    I will admit one thing, this could have been worse. The film McClory wanted to do back in the late 1970's had a script written by Connery and Len Deighton and it's stupidity was beyound belief. Let give you an example: A shark with robotic limbs.
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • 'Never Say Never Again' comes over as more of a Bond parody than a Bond film that's to be taken seriously, from the poor characters all the way down to the dozens of not-too-subtle lampshades hung on the fact that it has Sir Sean back as Bond. Actually, it feels like it's a "Sean Connery as Bond" film rather than a proper "Bond" film.
    That's a Smith and Wesson, and you've had your six.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I also think NSNA is hampered by a small claustraphobic ending,underwater in a cramped tunnel. At least Thunderball had J Barry's great score to help drive the undersea action along. If only they had moved the ending to e.g. a sunken liner with tens of divers batteling it out across several decks ,but then I'm sure EON would of suied over copyrigt. The only great thing was to see Connery looking better than he did in DAF.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Check out the edition with the rescored soundtrack of Arnold and Barry cues. I have to say I caught Octopussy last weekend and that really is one bore of a film, bookended by great action scenes. NSNA is just a bore of a film, imo!
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    Check out the edition with the rescored soundtrack of Arnold and Barry cues. I have to say I caught Octopussy last weekend and that really is one bore of a film, bookended by great action scenes. NSNA is just a bore of a film, imo!

    The most embarrasing moment of Octopussy is that chase with Kamal's henchmen after Bond left Kamal's club. I can forgive some of the corny stuff during the chase with the vechicles but it's the foot chase that was terrible. All of a sudden Bond stumbles upon a street where everyone is doing "Indian" things. Can you imagine a simular scene in Live and Let Die ? Lord ! Though it does come awfully close.

    Also you're right about the film in general but I have to admit I love that entire sequence of Bond going after the bomb at the circus, for the only time in the film there is actually exiciting suspense and non-embarrassing humor.
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Yeah, I agree, it was just all that stuff with Maud Adams and their sexual chemistry - awful, damp squib stuff though that fits the title of the movie. The subordinate Bond girl - Kara? - is sort of uncharismatic too.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    Yeah, I agree, it was just all that stuff with Maud Adams and their sexual chemistry - awful, damp squib stuff though that fits the title of the movie. The subordinate Bond girl - Kara? - is sort of uncharismatic too.

    Octopussy herself was a really dull character who did nothing and her backstory was only scarely developed; What was this "Octopus" cult exactly and how did she manage to revive it ? Also after Goldfinger and Diamonds Are Forever, we'd expect some cleverness to the jewerly smuggling. Oh boy, she hid the jewels under a cannon, yawn. You're also right about the sumbmissiveness, I didn't mind Kara Milovy being tamed since she was very niave but this so call expert thief who runs a criminal empire ? Please !
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Ah, no I meant the blonde in Octopussy whom Bond sleeps with before she disappears over the balcony.

    Note the octopus tattoo Bond notices and checks out with Q branch is similar to his noticing the Tong sign tattoo on Count Lippe at Shrublands all those years ago.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    Ah, no I meant the blonde in Octopussy whom Bond sleeps with before she disappears over the balcony.

    Note the octopus tattoo Bond notices and checks out with Q branch is similar to his noticing the Tong sign tattoo on Count Lippe at Shrublands all those years ago.

    Magda was here name. I liked her a lot better than Octopussy.
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Back to NSNA, and having read Thunderball I have to say it's a novel that, while having a big eff off plot befitting a Bond film, has real problems for a film too. Firstly, I'm 30 pages from the end and there have been no real action scenes so far. Okay, you can just add those in, right? But not really, because for most of the novel, and even at this point, Bond is simply unsure that Largo is anything to do with Spectre and neither side are showing their hand much. The whole point of the novel is one of tension and suspense - will Bond make a fool of himself with his superiors by bringing in the big guns when Largo is who he says he is, just a rich playboy on a treasure hunt game?

    So for most of Thunderball there are no twists and turns, Bond is just sitting on Largo's tail. They try to mess about with this in NSNA with an added location - the South of France - and in TB the movie with the jet pack thing in the pts, but it's such a simple plot in the novel that they have to work hard to make the whole thing more interesting, and it becomes instead quite convoluted.

    I see TB the novel as a three-part serial on TV - first part is at Shrublands, second part is bomb taken and out in Nassau, third part is finale.

    BTW it really seems a dumb coincidence that Domino is the sister of Petacchi, who works for Spectre in a temporary capacity. I think the films made this more deliberate, ie it's no coincidence at all, but it tells you something when I can't even remember for sure.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Ricardo C.Ricardo C. Posts: 916MI6 Agent
    edited September 2010
    BTW it really seems a dumb coincidence that Domino is the sister of Petacchi, who works for Spectre in a temporary capacity. I think the films made this more deliberate, ie it's no coincidence at all, but it tells you something when I can't even remember for sure.

    Fleming novels are chock full coincidences but they do serve their purpose of introducing the villain in a quiet atmosphere and building the escalation.

    Also the worst thing by far of the film adaptation is the hijacker of the bomber is a double who kills the genuine article. That's 60's Batman material.
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