I'm new here and never had this discussion before, so I'm more eager than older members on here who are jaded.
IMO: Whoever is the best actor to play Bond should play Bond, regardless of skin color.
Right now, that's Craig.
Should we deliberately seek a black Bond actor to fill a quota? No.
But if the most qualified actor just "happens" to be black, then why not cast him?
Core to Bond is his attractiveness, masculinity, suave charm, physical fitness and courage. If a black has all of these things in spades, then people aren't going to care about his skin color. They're just going to enjoy the movie.
Bond's gender and heterosexuality has been a core part of the series plot, but rarely if ever his skin color.
The Bond movies have always changed some elements to accommodate the new times. Skyfall, for example, incorporates 21st century computers and smartphones. Nobody is objecting to that and suggesting that it adopts rotary phones and old-school projectors instead.
Back then, black people were seen as being in a lower class than white people (going against Bond's country-club-like character), but that's changing now.
Rejecting a black actor for the part of Bond isn't necessarily racist. Bond has a history, both in literature and on film, as a white man with a long family ties in the very white European upper classes. Ethan Hunt in MI has little or no such history, so there would be no problem to make the next Ethan Hunt black. Bond being white has never been a core plot point in a Bond film, but it has been a part of who he is. As I wrote on the other 'black Bond' thread: it would have looked very strange if a black Bond drove up to Scotland in SF to visit his old ancestral family home. The mention of his family motto and his background in British nobility in OHMSS and TWINE would also look very strange with a black Bond.
...I'm not suggesting we have to deliberately seek out a black Bond actor or that there should be a race quota for the series. But if another actor, for a future Bond film, is the most qualified and just "happens" to be black, then why not?...
AC, your statement is correct in a theoretical sense and admirable (to me, at least) in a political sense. And I have to say, your eloquence and passion on this topic is impressive.
However, I don't believe it is realistically correct. As equally eloquent and passionate folks like Number24, superado and stag have pointed out, Bond's whiteness is ingrained in his character -- not because "white is better" (it isn't) but because his backstory makes it very difficult to imagine him as anything else.
Therefore, the only way a black actor would be considered would be if he were deliberately sought out (as you put it). If that were to happen, then a debate could be had on the merits of such a decision. But I don't think there is any other context in which such a decision could be reached, so to debate it in theory is pointless. Just as saying that Shaft could theoretically be portrayed by a white man is also pointless.
I'm new to this forum so I never had this discussion before. I know people tend to avoid this discussion because they're jaded. Whenever race comes up, people tend to get angry and immature, but I'm going to try to be as polite and civil with my opinions as possible.
Sorry, what? People who disagree with you, and think that Bond should never, ever be anything but white, are "immature"? How mature of you, to say that other people's opinions are "immature"?
Whoever is the best actor to play Bond should play Bond, regardless of skin color.
I cannot agree with that. Bond is a character written by Fleming, with a backstory and certain traits and vices. Being a good actor isn't good enough; the actor needs to know how to be Bond - in appearance, in mannerisms, and in personality. James Bond is much more than just a name and number.
As I have alluded to earlier in this thread, I don't have an issue with having a black man play a 00 agent as Bond's ally in a mission. But he cannot be James Bond. Arguments to the effect that times have changed and nowadays it's not uncommon for black men in high places is only argument for a fellow 00 who isn't white. So long as he wasn't someone created by Fleming, but a character written in by EON for the cinematic world, I don't have a problem with it.
I'm not suggesting we have to deliberately seek out a black Bond actor or that there should be a race quota for the series. But if another actor, for a future Bond film, is the most qualified and just "happens" to be black, then why not?
Where do we draw the line? If the best actor happens to be female, do you think we should hire her to play Bond?
When actors are hired to play a specific role, they are chosen on much more than acting ability. They are also chosen on appearance, gender and many, many other criteria. Is it discrimination? Absolutely. But so what? Why is that such a dirty word?
Core to Bond is his attractiveness, masculinity, suave charm, physical fitness and courage. I don't think being black precludes any of those traits. Being okay with 7 white Bond actors in a row isn't inherently racist, but if a black actor who meets all of these qualifications in spades is a candidate for the part and you reject him purely on the grounds that he's black, then it's racist.
No. You left out dark hair, slim build, blue-grey eyes. Bond's skin colour isn't specifically mentioned in the Fleming novels to the best of my knowledge, but it is very much implied, especially when one reads Live and Let Die. Incidentally, however, even as a Fleming purist, even I cringe at some of the racist stereotypes in that book.
Times may have change, but the characters do not. I don't mind new technology in Bond films; I don't mind new storylines set in the present. But the characters cannot, and must not change. Bond is written the way he was, and that's the way he should be played.
I don't think race (black/white) has ever been a prevalent theme in the Bond series. Gender has. Bond should always stay a heterosexual man, for example, because heterosexual relationships have been a core part of the series. Race, isn't.
I don't think Bond being white has EVER been a core plot element.
The Bond movies have always changed some elements to accommodate the new times. Skyfall, for example, incorporates 21st century computers and smartphones. Nobody is objecting to that and suggesting that it adopts rotary phones and old-school projectors instead.
I don't object to Bond being placed in a new environment with new technology and new stories set in the present. But I strenuously object to any change in the character. Bond is a WASP (white Anglo-Saxon Protestant). End of story.
Black people being tolerated in the same class of living as white people is just one of those things that can be updated.
Then have Bond work with a black 00 agent. There are more 00s than just Bond. "Black people being tolerated in the same class of living" is precisely why it's quite plausible to have a black 00 agent alongside Bond. But being Bond? Nope, never.
DEFIANT, your arguments are silly. You have forgotten that Bond is currently played by Craig. If he can play Bond, just about anyone can. Any why not? Fleming's Bond never travelled in space, visited Russia after the fall of communism or owned a DB5 with ejector seat either, yet movie Bonds have done that, and a lot more. Our world is much more multicultural that Fleming's, and it's time for the movies to reflect that too.
DEFIANT, your arguments are silly. You have forgotten that Bond is currently played by Craig. If he can play Bond, just about anyone can.
NO! NO! TO THE RIGHT! TO THE RIGHT! ..... AAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! YES! YES! AAAAHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA Now a woman can play Bond too! I nominate Sandra Bullock as my favourite candidate to succeed DC as the next Bond! She's nicer to look at than DC, she's "not blond" and she has previous experience of playing secret agents on the big screen. Since anyone can play Bond and skin colour, creed, nationality, hair colour, height etc. should not be a factor, sex should not be either! And nor should acting ability....
"I mean, she almost kills bond...with her ass."
-Mr Arlington Beech
DEFIANT, your arguments are silly. You have forgotten that Bond is currently played by Craig. If he can play Bond, just about anyone can. Any why not? Fleming's Bond never travelled in space, visited Russia after the fall of communism or owned a DB5 with ejector seat either, yet movie Bonds have done that, and a lot more. Our world is much more multicultural that Fleming's, and it's time for the movies to reflect that too.
All that says it that the cinematic Bond has already drifted too far away from Fleming's original concept, and needs to go back to its roots. Craig is doing a fine job as Bond, notwithstanding his hair colour, but hair colour is a far more subtle difference than skin colour.
Bond should never have gone into space. As for the DB5, I am of the view that EON should put Bond back in a Bentley.
And incidentally, I don't agree that the world is much more multicultural; the difference is the acceptance of different cultures. Nevertheless, you simply cannot change the ethnicity of an established character, as that character would cease to exist. Bond's ethnic background, physical characteristics, behaviour and mannerisms has been well established. Bond is far more than just an assassin working for MI6: he is a man of white Anglo-Saxon origins, born of a Scottish father and a Swiss mother, orphaned at a young age, and his vices include drinking, smoking and women. He is around 6' tall (give or take a few inches), and has dark hair. This is not something you can simply change.
I'll iterate my stance on this. I believe in color-blind selection. I don't think the 007 franchise should have a racial quota, but if the most qualified actor is black, I'm totally fine with a black Bond.
I think Idris Elba is a good candidate. He's attractive, physically in shape, likeable, good sense of humor, a gentleman. I could see him being the man men want to be and the man women want to be with.
He's attractive, physically in shape, likeable, good sense of humor, a gentleman.
...and 42. At the rate the Bonds are being made, and with Craig doing the one after SPECTRE, Elba will be pushing 50. That's too old to start being Bond (though not too old to continue if you've established yourself).
Hmmm, will this be a save for the boatload of sh*t she's in now, or the final stomp on her fingers as she hangs over a career-killer abyss?
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
I do NOT want a Black Bond.
But I would still watch the film series and find enjoyment in it if they do go ahead. -{ Idris Elba is a fantastic actor, one of my favourites actually.
IMHO I feel people want a Black Bond just for the sake of having a Black Bond. To be all politically Correct. Not because they feel it would enhance the film in anyway. I'm looking forward to having the 7th Bond actor to look more like Timothy Dalton. Since they are looking back on the Books now
“The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning. "
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming
IMHO I feel people want a Black Bond just for the sake of having a Black Bond. To be all politically Correct. Not because they feel it would enhance the film in anyway.
I'm not denying that there are people out there who do want a racial quota. I (and lots of others I bet) am not one of them.
I do think it's big progress that Ibris Elba is being considered. I don't think that would've happened 10-20 years ago. At the same time, this won't inform my opinion of who makes the most qualified Bond actor either.
Having a black Bond won't enhance the film. Having a really good Bond will enhance it. And if that really good Bond is black, then no problem.
Part of me likes the physical differences between the Bonds.
Connery's heavy eyebrows. Moore's baby-blue eyes and dirty blonde hair. Lazenby's cleft chin and boyish charm. Craig's totally unique look, from the other actors.
When I see Dalton and Brosnan together, it's kind of like looking at Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera together.
Having a black Bond won't enhance the film. Having a really good Bond will enhance it. And if that really good Bond is black, then no problem.
Let's be real here- with Craig, Bond is a very muscular short blondish triathelete. He still drinks though.
Next up could be a mixed race dude. It's the 21st Century.
With no sarcasm whatsoever I will say that ALL characters from Batman to Sherlock Holmes will change with the times, and Bond will too.
If we do not exterminate ourselves first, a Bond movie in the 22nd Century will feature an all bronze-skinned cast with hints of epicanthic fold about the eyes.
As a fan of Star Trek, I would welcome the homogenization of Humanity in the hopes it would encourage whirled peas.
I have no problem with a black Bond (or a female Master - Doctor Who reference). I also think Idris Elba is a fantastic actor. However, I think he will be too old for the part. He's 42 now, so with a new Bond film every three or four years he would be around 48 when starting in the role, assuming Craig does Bond 25. By Idris's hypothetical third film he'd risk challenging Roger Moore for oldest cinematic Bond.
I've been told that Ian Fleming based the character of Bond on his brother Peter.
James Bond is a world wide billion pound industry and reflects international taste, ironically I feel this would make it less likely for a black or any other ethnic actors other than white taking the role. In many countries for example China, Japan and India there is a romanticism towards suave, intelligent and dangerous white male. When they travel to England as tourists or students they hope to meet an English gentleman with potential Bond like quality and they do expect him to be white.
I've been told that Ian Fleming based the character of Bond on his brother Peter.
James Bond is a world wide billion pound industry and reflects international taste, ironically I feel this would make it less likely for a black or any other ethnic actors other than white taking the role. In many countries for example China, Japan and India there is a romanticism towards suave, intelligent and dangerous white male. When they travel to England as tourists or students they hope to meet an English gentleman with potential Bond like quality and they do expect him to be white.
Welcome to AJB Simon Templar!
You raise an excellent point there. I agree -{
“The scent and smoke and sweat of a casino are nauseating at three in the morning. "
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming
When they travel to England as tourists or students they hope to meet an English gentleman with potential Bond like quality
James Bond is not English, Simon.
I know but lots of people overseas still view Britain, UK, GB, the union flag as "England", this is what I'm saying when tourist comming to these shores the impression is they are visiting "England". Regional differences that make up the UK they care less of. Bond can be a Scot, Irish, Welsh but to most foreigners he is a British or English spy based in England.
" ....James Bond is a world wide billion pound industry... "
Going back to Amy Pascal, let's not think that she's been noble-minded all along or had suddenly experienced an epiphany. The bottoline of her interest in the developmental direction of the Bond franchise are profits and supply and demand. If she believes idris Elba as Bond will get millions of butts planted in theater seats, just as DC did, she'll push for it to happen within the bounds of her executive authority. Certainly they'll spend for thorough market research before doing anything but I will stop short of predicting what today's market wants and that's where Sony will go.
"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....
Comments
IMO: Whoever is the best actor to play Bond should play Bond, regardless of skin color.
Right now, that's Craig.
Should we deliberately seek a black Bond actor to fill a quota? No.
But if the most qualified actor just "happens" to be black, then why not cast him?
Core to Bond is his attractiveness, masculinity, suave charm, physical fitness and courage. If a black has all of these things in spades, then people aren't going to care about his skin color. They're just going to enjoy the movie.
Bond's gender and heterosexuality has been a core part of the series plot, but rarely if ever his skin color.
The Bond movies have always changed some elements to accommodate the new times. Skyfall, for example, incorporates 21st century computers and smartphones. Nobody is objecting to that and suggesting that it adopts rotary phones and old-school projectors instead.
Back then, black people were seen as being in a lower class than white people (going against Bond's country-club-like character), but that's changing now.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
However, I don't believe it is realistically correct. As equally eloquent and passionate folks like Number24, superado and stag have pointed out, Bond's whiteness is ingrained in his character -- not because "white is better" (it isn't) but because his backstory makes it very difficult to imagine him as anything else.
Therefore, the only way a black actor would be considered would be if he were deliberately sought out (as you put it). If that were to happen, then a debate could be had on the merits of such a decision. But I don't think there is any other context in which such a decision could be reached, so to debate it in theory is pointless. Just as saying that Shaft could theoretically be portrayed by a white man is also pointless.
Sorry, what? People who disagree with you, and think that Bond should never, ever be anything but white, are "immature"? How mature of you, to say that other people's opinions are "immature"?
I cannot agree with that. Bond is a character written by Fleming, with a backstory and certain traits and vices. Being a good actor isn't good enough; the actor needs to know how to be Bond - in appearance, in mannerisms, and in personality. James Bond is much more than just a name and number.
As I have alluded to earlier in this thread, I don't have an issue with having a black man play a 00 agent as Bond's ally in a mission. But he cannot be James Bond. Arguments to the effect that times have changed and nowadays it's not uncommon for black men in high places is only argument for a fellow 00 who isn't white. So long as he wasn't someone created by Fleming, but a character written in by EON for the cinematic world, I don't have a problem with it.
Where do we draw the line? If the best actor happens to be female, do you think we should hire her to play Bond?
When actors are hired to play a specific role, they are chosen on much more than acting ability. They are also chosen on appearance, gender and many, many other criteria. Is it discrimination? Absolutely. But so what? Why is that such a dirty word?
No. You left out dark hair, slim build, blue-grey eyes. Bond's skin colour isn't specifically mentioned in the Fleming novels to the best of my knowledge, but it is very much implied, especially when one reads Live and Let Die. Incidentally, however, even as a Fleming purist, even I cringe at some of the racist stereotypes in that book.
Times may have change, but the characters do not. I don't mind new technology in Bond films; I don't mind new storylines set in the present. But the characters cannot, and must not change. Bond is written the way he was, and that's the way he should be played.
Disagree again, for reasons mentioned above.
I don't object to Bond being placed in a new environment with new technology and new stories set in the present. But I strenuously object to any change in the character. Bond is a WASP (white Anglo-Saxon Protestant). End of story.
Then have Bond work with a black 00 agent. There are more 00s than just Bond. "Black people being tolerated in the same class of living" is precisely why it's quite plausible to have a black 00 agent alongside Bond. But being Bond? Nope, never.
NO! NO! TO THE RIGHT! TO THE RIGHT! ..... AAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! YES! YES! AAAAHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA Now a woman can play Bond too! I nominate Sandra Bullock as my favourite candidate to succeed DC as the next Bond! She's nicer to look at than DC, she's "not blond" and she has previous experience of playing secret agents on the big screen. Since anyone can play Bond and skin colour, creed, nationality, hair colour, height etc. should not be a factor, sex should not be either! And nor should acting ability....
-Mr Arlington Beech
Idris Elba Wanted as the Next James Bond?
http://www.movieweb.com/james-bond-movie-cast-idris-elba
All that says it that the cinematic Bond has already drifted too far away from Fleming's original concept, and needs to go back to its roots. Craig is doing a fine job as Bond, notwithstanding his hair colour, but hair colour is a far more subtle difference than skin colour.
Bond should never have gone into space. As for the DB5, I am of the view that EON should put Bond back in a Bentley.
And incidentally, I don't agree that the world is much more multicultural; the difference is the acceptance of different cultures. Nevertheless, you simply cannot change the ethnicity of an established character, as that character would cease to exist. Bond's ethnic background, physical characteristics, behaviour and mannerisms has been well established. Bond is far more than just an assassin working for MI6: he is a man of white Anglo-Saxon origins, born of a Scottish father and a Swiss mother, orphaned at a young age, and his vices include drinking, smoking and women. He is around 6' tall (give or take a few inches), and has dark hair. This is not something you can simply change.
Somebody whack her over the head with the fourteen Fleming books.
I'll boycott the series if Idris Elba is cast as the next Bond. X-(
I'd rather him instead
http://img.hayhaytv.com/film/03042013/from-beijing-with-love_40491364958874.jpg
I think Idris Elba is a good candidate. He's attractive, physically in shape, likeable, good sense of humor, a gentleman. I could see him being the man men want to be and the man women want to be with.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
decides to hang up his ppk.
...and 42. At the rate the Bonds are being made, and with Craig doing the one after SPECTRE, Elba will be pushing 50. That's too old to start being Bond (though not too old to continue if you've established yourself).
Edit- TP beat me to that!
Ideally, we want a Bond actor who will last 10 years. And 60 is too old.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
Hmmm, will this be a save for the boatload of sh*t she's in now, or the final stomp on her fingers as she hangs over a career-killer abyss?
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
But I would still watch the film series and find enjoyment in it if they do go ahead.
IMHO I feel people want a Black Bond just for the sake of having a Black Bond. To be all politically Correct. Not because they feel it would enhance the film in anyway. I'm looking forward to having the 7th Bond actor to look more like Timothy Dalton. Since they are looking back on the Books now
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
I'm not denying that there are people out there who do want a racial quota. I (and lots of others I bet) am not one of them.
I do think it's big progress that Ibris Elba is being considered. I don't think that would've happened 10-20 years ago. At the same time, this won't inform my opinion of who makes the most qualified Bond actor either.
Having a black Bond won't enhance the film. Having a really good Bond will enhance it. And if that really good Bond is black, then no problem.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
Connery's heavy eyebrows. Moore's baby-blue eyes and dirty blonde hair. Lazenby's cleft chin and boyish charm. Craig's totally unique look, from the other actors.
When I see Dalton and Brosnan together, it's kind of like looking at Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera together.
AJB007 Favorite Film Rankings
Pros and Cons Compendium (50 Years)
Next up could be a mixed race dude. It's the 21st Century.
With no sarcasm whatsoever I will say that ALL characters from Batman to Sherlock Holmes will change with the times, and Bond will too.
If we do not exterminate ourselves first, a Bond movie in the 22nd Century will feature an all bronze-skinned cast with hints of epicanthic fold about the eyes.
As a fan of Star Trek, I would welcome the homogenization of Humanity in the hopes it would encourage whirled peas.
#1.TLD/LTK 2.TND 3.GF 4.GE 5.DN 6.FYEO 7.FRWL 8.TMWTGG 9.TWINE 10.YOLT/QOS
James Bond is a world wide billion pound industry and reflects international taste, ironically I feel this would make it less likely for a black or any other ethnic actors other than white taking the role. In many countries for example China, Japan and India there is a romanticism towards suave, intelligent and dangerous white male. When they travel to England as tourists or students they hope to meet an English gentleman with potential Bond like quality and they do expect him to be white.
Welcome to AJB Simon Templar!
You raise an excellent point there. I agree -{
-Casino Royale, Ian Fleming
James Bond is not English, Simon.
I know but lots of people overseas still view Britain, UK, GB, the union flag as "England", this is what I'm saying when tourist comming to these shores the impression is they are visiting "England". Regional differences that make up the UK they care less of. Bond can be a Scot, Irish, Welsh but to most foreigners he is a British or English spy based in England.
Oh no, please not another mousy and weepy Bond 8-)
Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!
Going back to Amy Pascal, let's not think that she's been noble-minded all along or had suddenly experienced an epiphany. The bottoline of her interest in the developmental direction of the Bond franchise are profits and supply and demand. If she believes idris Elba as Bond will get millions of butts planted in theater seats, just as DC did, she'll push for it to happen within the bounds of her executive authority. Certainly they'll spend for thorough market research before doing anything but I will stop short of predicting what today's market wants and that's where Sony will go.