Some thoughts...

JB 1991

I appreciate this is my first post to this site, and thus I'm a rooky. But I was wondering, with all your collective wisdom on James Bond, if any one could clarify something.
If it has already been posted I apologise.
Why does Le Chiffre, in CR, tell Bond that 'Your friend Mathis, is really my friend Mathis' if Mathis wasn't really a double? After Mathis' interrogation he's set free, and then in Quantum of Solace Bond instantly trusts him again? Also on a similar note, if Mathis wasn't the double then who told Le Chiffre about the bluff? And, last one, why is Vesper receiving a text of Mathis odd to bond, when she excuses herself, after he's won the tournament, from the table he takes a few minutes to absorb the information then quickly assumes something is out of place... in the book this part is considerably clearer, why not in the film
Any thoughts would be appreciated
Thanks
JB - My real initials honest 8-)

R. Sterling

JB 1991 wrote:

I appreciate this is my first post to this site, and thus I'm a rooky. But I was wondering, with all your collective wisdom on James Bond, if any one could clarify something.
If it has already been posted I apologise.
Why does Le Chiffre, in CR, tell Bond that 'Your friend Mathis, is really my friend Mathis' if Mathis wasn't really a double? After Mathis' interrogation he's set free, and then in Quantum of Solace Bond instantly trusts him again? Also on a similar note, if Mathis wasn't the double then who told Le Chiffre about the bluff? And, last one, why is Vesper receiving a text of Mathis odd to bond, when she excuses herself, after he's won the tournament, from the table he takes a few minutes to absorb the information then quickly assumes something is out of place... in the book this part is considerably clearer, why not in the film
Any thoughts would be appreciated
Thanks
JB - My real initials honest 8-)

Le Chiffre tells Bond Mathis would be "his friend" to lead Bond (and the audience) in a wrong direction and protect Vesper's cover.

The "interrogation" was probably a long and painful one, including torture, hence the nice castello MI6 gave him which we see in QoS; sort of an excuse.

Bond doesn't trust Mathis instantly again, as Mathis puts it "it takes something to admit you were wrong". After Vesper's betrayal Bond realized that he suspected Mathis falsely.

Vesper didn't receive a message from Mathis, she lied about that. Quantum contacted her in that scene.

Cheers.

-{

Lexi

R. Sterling wrote:

Vesper didn't receive a message from Mathis, she lied about that. Quantum contacted her in that scene.

I'm going to disagree with you here - I think Vesper did receive a txt from Mathis....it just wasn't him that sent it.... it was Quantum, using Mathis's phone..... I think Vesper really did think it was from him.

When she then left, Bond was jolted to Mathis's name. He knew someone had told Le Chiffre of his 'tell', and the only person he (Bond) had told that too was Vesper and Mathis, and this is where he just assumed Mathis was guilty....

Quantum knew (or rather hoped) that this final piece of the jigsaw - Vesper getting a txt from Mathis, would then hopefully trigger Bond into thinking that the txt was a lure for Vesper....and so went after her - I'm sure the 'capture' of Vesper was a 'stage' - so that Bond would definitely follow them....it was the only way they could capture him.

However, this is just my opinion - and not necessarily correct.... I think that it's very open to interpretation - not sure if that was intentional or not.... but at least it makes you think.... and discuss....

Napoleon Plural

It's poor writing, possibly a result of script doctoring by Haggis to allow for a third act.

There weren't much grounds for suspecting Matthis. He gives Bond 'poisoned' water but of course a check on it would prove it wasn't.

darenhat

I'm with NP...the writing is a bit dodgy. Vesper's abduction being staged is weak because they're really risking that Bond doesn't clue in that she's being abducted. Combined with the fact that they dump Vesper in front of Bond's car adds a bit more confusion as to whether they really need her or not and who's working with who.

However, Le Chiffre's 'Mathis is my friend' comment may be him trying to throw suspicion off of Vesper onto Mathis.

Lexi

Napoleon Plural wrote:

It's poor writing, possibly a result of script doctoring by Haggis to allow for a third act.

There weren't much grounds for suspecting Matthis. He gives Bond 'poisoned' water but of course a check on it would prove it wasn't.

okay - I'm going to ask....what 'poisoned' water?

This has been bugging me all day.....

DJ007

The water he hands Bond in the hospital. He mixes something in it and Mathis tells him "The doctor said to drink this." It's right before he gets tazed and dragged away.

thesecretagent

In the medical/convalesence retreat where Bond talks to Mathis. Mathis asks him what else he remembers of his ordeal whilst pouring Bond water. The idea is that Mathis is covering his tracks, pours Bond a tampered water and hands it to him, but is electro-stunned and taken away - Bond tips the water away as Mathis is hauled away. Really Lexi... Stop looking at Bond's perfectly formed arse and pay attention.

darenhat

thesecretagent wrote:

Really Lexi... Stop looking at Bond's perfectly formed arse and pay attention.

)

Lexi

thesecretagent wrote:

In the medical/convalesence retreat where Bond talks to Mathis. Mathis asks him what else he remembers of his ordeal whilst pouring Bond water. The idea is that Mathis is covering his tracks, pours Bond a tampered water and hands it to him, but is electro-stunned and taken away - Bond tips the water away as Mathis is hauled away. Really Lexi... Stop looking at Bond's perfectly formed arse and pay attention.

;% Okay, okay.... you got me! ^{*hand hitting forehead as I remember exactly the scene - duh!}

But I will blame it on the arse - and a man all vulnerable and in need - always a good combination for forgetting integral plot development..... )

JB 1991

I was thinking, perhaps Quantum told Le Chiffre that Mathis was really 'his friend' in order to protect Vespers ID. Once it became clear Le Chiffre wasn't going to win the money back and they couldn't trust him they diverted their attention to her and her wooing James into surrendering the money, thus in order for Le Chiffre to know who had told him of James finding out about the tell, besides Vesper, Mathis was the most logical choice... but that all seems rather contrived.

SpectreBlofeld

darenhat wrote:

I'm with NP...the writing is a bit dodgy. Vesper's abduction being staged is weak because they're really risking that Bond doesn't clue in that she's being abducted. Combined with the fact that they dump Vesper in front of Bond's car adds a bit more confusion as to whether they really need her or not and who's working with who.

Perhaps they planned to contact Bond and make an offer ('the girl for the money'). It just so happened that Bond gave chase, so they ended up nabbing him instead.

darenhat

SpectreBlofeld wrote:

darenhat wrote:

I'm with NP...the writing is a bit dodgy. Vesper's abduction being staged is weak because they're really risking that Bond doesn't clue in that she's being abducted. Combined with the fact that they dump Vesper in front of Bond's car adds a bit more confusion as to whether they really need her or not and who's working with who.

Perhaps they planned to contact Bond and make an offer ('the girl for the money'). It just so happened that Bond gave chase, so they ended up nabbing him instead.

That certainly is a sensible explanation...to a degree. A lot of the issues arise for me with the implication that Vesper and Le Chiffre are 'conspiring' with each other for LC to land the money (the 'tell' secret, and Vesper refusing to let Bond buy back into the game for example). Vesper's helping Le Chiffre, but then he dumps her in front of Bond's speeding car? Then he needs her as a tool to make Bond cooperate? The motives of the characters get a little muddy IMO, which is acceptable to an extent, but too much can generate incoherency. I've always felt CR (the film) walked too fine a line in that regard, whereas CR the novel avoided such problems.

j.blades

I assume Vesper is conspiring with Le Chiffre like in the novel, so I'll stick by that postulate. They may have more control over the scripts then you guys give them credit for.

SpectreBlofeld

It's also possible that Vesper tried to back out or failed to comply in some way, perhaps having second thoughts about cooperating after Bond was poisoned. She didn't want to be responsible for his death, and refused to help Le Chiffre to get the money after the poker game was over, so they nab her.

Because, after all, if she was cooperating with him 100%, she could've helped them get the money after the game was over anyway (the way she did for Mr. White later in exchange for Bond's life), and it wouldn't have been necessary to kidnap her (and hold her ransom, or whatever else their plan was).

I'm thinking she was going along with Le Chiffre (in order to protect her 'boyfriend') up until the point it put Bond in danger. Up until that point, it was only money (quite a bit of it, but still only money).

j.blades

I just re-watched QoS (in Bluray its like a whole other movie its fantastic) and I think they dropped us hints for Bond 23.

At the end Green says that he told Bond all he wanted to know of Quantum = therefore the next movie will be the destruction of Quantum no more random killing Bond knows all he needs.

Later, and this is the interesting bit, Bond tells Camille that he's going to start by going after Greens freinds = That will probably start off the next movie as the PTS.

Thats all I got but, I'm 100% sure that thats how the next movie will play out I think Wade is setting up the plot for the next movie, I can't wait. And not to mention that theres rumours that Bond 23 will start right after QoS ended so its entirely even more plausible.

thesecretagent

You're right - I've always maintained that on a good tv with blueray it's a different film altogether.

Lexi

j.blades wrote:

I just re-watched QoS (in Bluray its like a whole other movie its fantastic) and I think they dropped us hints for Bond 23.

At the end Green says that he told Bond all he wanted to know of Quantum = therefore the next movie will be the destruction of Quantum no more random killing Bond knows all he needs.

Later, and this is the interesting bit, Bond tells Camille that he's going to start by going after Greens freinds = That will probably start off the next movie as the PTS.

Thats all I got but, I'm 100% sure that thats how the next movie will play out I think Wade is setting up the plot for the next movie, I can't wait. And not to mention that theres rumours that Bond 23 will start right after QoS ended so its entirely even more plausible.

Not to mention Guy Haines..... that was left wide open for a sub plot too..... and one I would like to see followed.... :v

blueman

MI6 also presumably got more info about Quantum out of Yusef, so lots to build 23 on.

As for the CR stuff, yeah I wish they'd spent more time on the plot points instead of huge 15-20 minute action sequences, the story as Haggis/Campbell tell it is a pretty jagged one even if it is dressed up prettily. That was one improvement in QOS I very much appreciated, the plot and action flow together seamlessly from beginning to end with no "why are they doing that?" moments along the way, just Bond doing what needs doing scene after awesome scene.

j.blades

^Exactly! I sincerely think that Haggis and Wade always had something planned for this final trilogy, and people don't give them as much credit as they deserve.

Thunderpussy

I'd like in a Kind of nod to the Older movies, to have the film open with Mr White sitting in a cafe somewhere,and as he lifts the glass of water up he sees written on a piece of paper attached to the bottom of the glass "We have people everywhere !" looking round to see Bond at the next table, who calmly shoots him with a silcened weapon, unseen by others.As a waiter askes him if he's enjoying his stay he replys " Yes Considerably !". Then into the titles. :007)