Was Mathis a Traitor?

thesecretagentthesecretagent CornwallPosts: 2,151MI6 Agent
in The James Bond Films
This has just come up on another thread as a sideline. What do you all think? Mathis was taken away at the end of Casino Royale and sweated over his possible involvement with Le Chiffre. In Quantum of Solace he seems exonorated - this being touched on by his girlfriend and the villa was given to him by MI6 as compensation. He helps Bond - the two become friends throughout the assignment and then we have the touching scene with Bond cradling him as he dies - and the somewhat dividing scene of him being dumped in the bin.
I was of the opinion that when asked if they forgave each other, this was for Bond accusing him of in Casino Royale, and of Mathis allowing himself to be caught, injured and used to ambush Bond in QOS - thus letting him down.
How do you interprept this?
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Comments

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    The ambiguity from this sceen shows how badly written the script was.I think parts where written in crayon. :))
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • zaphodzaphod Posts: 1,183MI6 Agent
    :))
    Thunderpussy wrote:
    The ambiguity from this sceen shows how badly written the script was.I think parts where written in crayon. :))

    Sure that you are just not sophisticated enough to appreciate the subtle nuances of a 'challenging' and complex film ?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I'll have you know zaphod, that I'm soooooooo sophisticated, I always wipe the neck of the Buckfast bottle when it gets passes round. :))
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • zaphodzaphod Posts: 1,183MI6 Agent
    Thunderpussy wrote:
    I'll have you know zaphod, that I'm soooooooo sophisticated, I always wipe the neck of the Buckfast bottle when it gets passes round. :))

    Nuff said.
  • Thunderbird 2Thunderbird 2 East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,817MI6 Agent
    As someone who likes to enjoy a good wine (or Scotch) and art gallery exhibitions, I can say QoS is not sophisticated. It tries desperately to be so while also retro, and artistic. As a result it comes across in places as confused, and others badly pretentious. - This scene is a disturbing example of both crashing like a head on train wreck! A little mystery is a good thing, but not to the point where you have no idea what is going on. - I only get missing answers in here when people provide them.

    Whats really shame is its a crashing waste of talent on the part of the actors in those scenes. Ok, I'll stop grousing now!
    This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
  • Miss HavelockMiss Havelock Travelling. Again.Posts: 17MI6 Agent
    Thunderbird 2 wrote:
    As someone who likes to enjoy a good wine (or Scotch) and art gallery exhibitions, I can say QoS is not sophisticated. It tries desperately to be so while also retro, and artistic. As a result it comes across in places as confused, and others badly pretentious. - This scene is a disturbing example of both crashing like a head on train wreck! A little mystery is a good thing, but not to the point where you have no idea what is going on. - I only get missing answers in here when people provide them.

    Whats really shame is its a crashing waste of talent on the part of the actors in those scenes. Ok, I'll stop grousing now!

    Enjoying a good wine (or Scotch) and enjoying art gallery exhibitions is exactly what QoS is not about.

    QoS is raw.

    Tosca isn't for everyone ;)
    "I was never taught what femininity was. I learnt it- or rather I invented it- on my own. "

    -Carole Bouquet
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    The scene from QOS reminds of the other Brilliant piece of work " The naked gun Thirty three and a Third " where Anna nicole smith says to Frank Drebbin ( The great Leslie Neilsen )
    " Your Bishop is exposed " commenting on his chess playing, at first an obvious joke but on looking Deeper. It's a clear reference to the plight of Arch-Bishop Desmond Tutu and his fight for equality.
    I agree Tosca is not for everyone, But then again gaze at your navel long enough and any old Bollocks can be made to look Intellectual 8-) Mabey they could get Tracy Emmin to do the set design for Bond 23. :# or get Damien Hirst to do a job on a Piranha pond. " Bonnet de Douche " Rodney. :))
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • SilentSpySilentSpy Private Exotic AreaPosts: 765MI6 Agent
    I don't think Mathis was a traitor at all. We see Vesper's "tells" clearly in Casino Royale. Nothing similar from Mathis. Bond was thinking that Mathis could be a "double blind" (I think that's what Bond says) because at the end of Casino he doesn't trust anyone.

    The line "Do we forgive each other?" Mathis obviously forgives Bond for thinking he was a traitor and getting him tortured. Maybe Mathis suspected that Vesper was a traitor and didn't tell Bond? Mathis does seem to have insight into Vesper's character. Or the line could just be a comforting line between people when one of them is about to die.

    Whatever the case, Mathis is still handled extremely poorly. Bond knows the cops are corrupt. Also, that the cops/bad guys are looking for him by being certain that the airplane guy will sell his location. Also, M immediately thinks Bond killed Mathis I believe (I need to see her scene again). So, yes Mathis trash scene was for visual/shock value more than anything else. Connery, Moore, Dalton, Lazenby, or Brosnan Bonds would never dump a friend into the trash.
    "Better late than never."
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,757Chief of Staff
    SilentSpy wrote:
    The line "Do we forgive each other?" Mathis obviously forgives Bond for thinking he was a traitor and getting him tortured. Maybe Mathis suspected that Vesper was a traitor and didn't tell Bond? Mathis does seem to have insight into Vesper's character.

    Couldn't both Vesper and Mathis be traitors ? Just working for different sides..?..that's certainly how I see it.

    I mean that Mathis really WAS Le Chiffre's friend and that Vesper was being worked by Quantum through her boyfriend Yusuf Kabira....so, both traitors...just reporting back to different sides...
    YNWA 97
  • Miss HavelockMiss Havelock Travelling. Again.Posts: 17MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles wrote:
    SilentSpy wrote:
    The line "Do we forgive each other?" Mathis obviously forgives Bond for thinking he was a traitor and getting him tortured. Maybe Mathis suspected that Vesper was a traitor and didn't tell Bond? Mathis does seem to have insight into Vesper's character.

    Couldn't both Vesper and Mathis be traitors ? Just working for different sides..?..that's certainly how I see it.

    I mean that Mathis really WAS Le Chiffre's friend and that Vesper was being worked by Quantum through her boyfriend Yusuf Kabira....so, both traitors...just reporting back to different sides...

    Le Chiffre had friends? ;)

    But yes, I start to like the idea more and more.
    A scary thought to entertain.
    "I was never taught what femininity was. I learnt it- or rather I invented it- on my own. "

    -Carole Bouquet
  • waltherppk7.65waltherppk7.65 Posts: 97MI6 Agent
    i like this thought but i believe that vesper was the real traitor and le chiffre had known that vesper was working for quantum so they kept the ruse of mathis being the traitor so that vesper could work her magic on bond and turn him as said by mr.white in qos when he said that they would have had him too. but this is just my view on the whole situation
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,757Chief of Staff
    waltherppk7.65 wrote:
    i like this thought but i believe that vesper was the real traitor and le chiffre had known that vesper was working for quantum so they kept the ruse of mathis being the traitor so that vesper could work her magic on bond and turn him as said by mr.white in qos when he said that they would have had him too. but this is just my view on the whole situation

    Yes...Quantum did want Bond.....but Le Chiffre didn't...he just wanted Bond out of the way so he could recoup his money and stop Quantum coming for him...Le Chiffre didn't work for Quantum remember, so Vesper would have been no use to him at all and anything she learned would be for Quantum only...
    ...so...Mathis worked for Le Chiffre and Vesper worked for Quantum...well, that's my theory anyway :D
    YNWA 97
  • SilentSpySilentSpy Private Exotic AreaPosts: 765MI6 Agent
    I think you are forgetting that Le Chiffre didn't have the password for the money. He needed Vesper to help work Bond for the password to get the money.

    Also, don't forget that even Vesper is surprised when Bond mentions on the beach that Mathis didn't have his back. She probably would have a feeling or not acted as surprised if Mathis was also working for Quantum or Le Chiffre. Unless Mathis was just shadowing her. But still Bond probably would not ask for Mathis' help in Quantum if he really believed he was a traitor and would set him up in South America (I can't remember the country).
    "Better late than never."
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,757Chief of Staff
    SilentSpy wrote:
    I think you are forgetting that Le Chiffre didn't have the password for the money. He needed Vesper to help work Bond for the password to get the money.

    Also, don't forget that even Vesper is surprised when Bond mentions on the beach that Mathis didn't have his back. She probably would have a feeling or not acted as surprised if Mathis was also working for Quantum or Le Chiffre. Unless Mathis was just shadowing her. But still Bond probably would not ask for Mathis' help in Quantum if he really believed he was a traitor and would set him up in South America (I can't remember the country).

    Nope...didn't forget that...I'm suggesting that Vesper didn't work for Le Chiffre at all...only for Quantum...and other than the threat of violence against Vesper, Le Chiffre doesn't appear to use Vesper against Bond....and that threat of violence against Vesper was probably real and could have been part of the reason Mr White shot Le Chiffre....to save Vesper and help them get the money - and possibly Bond too...

    Vesper could genuinely have been surprised that Bond mentions that Mathis didn't have his back...she KNEW she was the traitor, why expect another one ?
    I still think that Mathis only worked for Le Chiffre and that Vesper only worked for Quantum....so why would they know about each others duplicity ?

    Of course...I could have this all wrong :))
    YNWA 97
  • WordsAndDreamsWordsAndDreams Posts: 93MI6 Agent
    To the OP, a confusing scene indeed. I always thought everyone knew the answer and that i was just being dumb and couldn't figure it out, nice to know that no one really knows, haha. Anyway, doesn't bond say something like, "was mathis your cover name?" to which he replies yes and bond replies again with something like, "not a very good one i guess." I always thought that meant Mathis was working for quantum as a double agent type thing. I guess i might just not be remembering the scene very well, i haven't watched QoS recently, and i don't plan to anytime soon.
  • SilentSpySilentSpy Private Exotic AreaPosts: 765MI6 Agent
    edited June 2011
    Sir Miles wrote:
    SilentSpy wrote:
    I think you are forgetting that Le Chiffre didn't have the password for the money. He needed Vesper to help work Bond for the password to get the money.

    Also, don't forget that even Vesper is surprised when Bond mentions on the beach that Mathis didn't have his back. She probably would have a feeling or not acted as surprised if Mathis was also working for Quantum or Le Chiffre. Unless Mathis was just shadowing her. But still Bond probably would not ask for Mathis' help in Quantum if he really believed he was a traitor and would set him up in South America (I can't remember the country).

    Nope...didn't forget that...I'm suggesting that Vesper didn't work for Le Chiffre at all...only for Quantum...and other than the threat of violence against Vesper, Le Chiffre doesn't appear to use Vesper against Bond....and that threat of violence against Vesper was probably real and could have been part of the reason Mr White shot Le Chiffre....to save Vesper and help them get the money - and possibly Bond too...

    Vesper could genuinely have been surprised that Bond mentions that Mathis didn't have his back...she KNEW she was the traitor, why expect another one ?
    I still think that Mathis only worked for Le Chiffre and that Vesper only worked for Quantum....so why would they know about each others duplicity ?

    Of course...I could have this all wrong :))

    I think Mr. White shot Le Chiffre for the reasons he stated. Something about knowing who to trust is more important than money. Le Chiffre knew they were coming after him. Quantum probably just gave him a chance to recover the money and his chance was up once he lost the poker game. I doubt the threat of violence was real against Vesper by Le Chiffre because they still didn't have the money.

    Anyway, I think the real question is. What makes people believe Mathis could be a traitor other than Bond wrongly (I believe) suspecting him and the line in Quantum of Solace? I don't see any other proof other than those two things.
    "Better late than never."
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,757Chief of Staff
    SilentSpy wrote:
    Sir Miles wrote:
    SilentSpy wrote:
    I think you are forgetting that Le Chiffre didn't have the password for the money. He needed Vesper to help work Bond for the password to get the money.

    Also, don't forget that even Vesper is surprised when Bond mentions on the beach that Mathis didn't have his back. She probably would have a feeling or not acted as surprised if Mathis was also working for Quantum or Le Chiffre. Unless Mathis was just shadowing her. But still Bond probably would not ask for Mathis' help in Quantum if he really believed he was a traitor and would set him up in South America (I can't remember the country).

    Nope...didn't forget that...I'm suggesting that Vesper didn't work for Le Chiffre at all...only for Quantum...and other than the threat of violence against Vesper, Le Chiffre doesn't appear to use Vesper against Bond....and that threat of violence against Vesper was probably real and could have been part of the reason Mr White shot Le Chiffre....to save Vesper and help them get the money - and possibly Bond too...

    Vesper could genuinely have been surprised that Bond mentions that Mathis didn't have his back...she KNEW she was the traitor, why expect another one ?
    I still think that Mathis only worked for Le Chiffre and that Vesper only worked for Quantum....so why would they know about each others duplicity ?

    Of course...I could have this all wrong :))

    I think Mr. White shot Le Chiffre for the reasons he stated. Something about knowing who to trust is more important than money. Le Chiffre knew they were coming after him. Quantum probably just gave him a chance to recover the money and his chance was up once he loss the poker game. I doubt the threat of violence was real against Vesper by Le Chiffre because they still didn't have the money.

    Anyway, I think the real question is. What makes people believe Mathis could be a traitor other than Bond suspecting wrongly (I believe) suspecting him and the line in Quantum of Solace? I don't see any other proof other than those two things.

    Yes...that's definately a part of it (IMO)...but perhaps Quantum also wanted Bond, so didn't want Le Chiffre to kill him....and it just so happened that to kill Le Chiffre then would give them a chance to get Bond on their side and send out a message too....and they knew that Vesper would just tell them the bank details, they needed Bond for the password....and it's much easier for them to get it through Vesper than through torture...
    You say the threat of violence against Vesper wasn't real....why not ? It was far easier all round to get Vesper to get the information from Bond [exactly how she did] rather than waste time torturing him...that doesn't make sense... :s The torture scene only makes sense [to me at least] IF Le Chiffre doesn't work directly for Quantum and therefore can't get his money before Quantum come for him...otherwise Le Chiffre would just ask Vesper to ask Bond for the password and he'd have his money in a matter of minutes...

    As for Mathis..?..there is very little proof that he's not a double-agent...apart from the line in QoS....I guess you pays your money and takes your choice... :D
    YNWA 97
  • Thunderbird 2Thunderbird 2 East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,817MI6 Agent
    (Sighs) I give up. Le Chiffre's dead, Vesper's dead, Mathis is dead, unless we get some answers in the next film we will prob never know what really was going on. Far too convoluted for my taste.
    This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
  • SilentSpySilentSpy Private Exotic AreaPosts: 765MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles wrote:
    ...they knew that Vesper would just tell them the bank details, they needed Bond for the password....and it's much easier for them to get it through Vesper than through torture...

    You say the threat of violence against Vesper wasn't real....why not ? It was far easier all round to get Vesper to get the information from Bond [exactly how she did] rather than waste time torturing him...that doesn't make sense... :s The torture scene only makes sense [to me at least] IF Le Chiffre doesn't work directly for Quantum and therefore can't get his money before Quantum come for him...otherwise Le Chiffre would just ask Vesper to ask Bond for the password and he'd have his money in a matter of minutes...

    As for Mathis..?..there is very little proof that he's not a double-agent...apart from the line in QoS....I guess you pays your money and takes your choice... :D

    I'll try to explain my thinking on this. I didn't think that Vesper had direct control over the money. Even though she says "I'm the money" once Bond gets the money, it's his. Remember the banker. Now, when Bond needs more money, Vesper probably would need to put in a request. Which she didn't want to do. She wanted Bond out of the game to save her "boyfriend" who she thought would be killed. Bond didn't want to ask M for the money because Vesper would probably complain that Bond is too reckless and would just lose the money again.

    I always assumed Vesper told Le Chiffre (either directly or indirectly) that Bond knew his tell. As I mentioned I think in this or another post, Eva Green gives a great performance as Vesper through her facial expressions. For example, after Bond gets back in the poker game, Vesper is clearly angry.

    On the torture, I vaguely remember in the book that Vesper wasn't tortured. In the movie, Bond was going to take the password to his death. Le Chiffre enjoyed torturing him for putting him through all the trouble in the poker game. Le Chiffre probably even assumed that Bond is the guy who caused all his plans to go wrong. Anyway, after Bond wins the poker game, Vesper had no real reason to ask for the password. If anything, Vesper asking for the password would have made Bond suspicious. Torture with the threat of violence against Vesper was the best route at that time. Both for Le Chiffre who desperately needed the money and Quantum since they were most likely unsure if Vesper could get it back. Remember, Vesper didn't give Bond the extra money. She didn't know if she could get the password. So, if Bond sees Vesper injured he would correctly assume that they are going to kill them anyway. The scream is the threat of harm. If Vesper was unharmed, Bond would think they aren't serious enough and there is the possibility of escape. Then Vesper could get the password, which is pretty much what happened.
    "Better late than never."
  • thesecretagentthesecretagent CornwallPosts: 2,151MI6 Agent
    When I left the cinema a guy walking behind me turned to his companions and said, " Was that me, or did anyone else know what the f**k was going on?" I felt really smug and turned to my wife, who had seen Casino Royale a couple of times and asked her why anyone would see it without seeing the first. She said, "Because its a Bond film..." and I felt a bit daft. But that's the point - the poor guy wasn't an idiot, he just wasn't looking for something so deep and had wasted his money.
    Bond has a huge fanbase, and they're not all on the web discussing it. Even here where interest gives way to obsession, nobody has a definative answer to this. The film just isn't clear enough... :#
    Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy Behind you !Posts: 63,792MI6 Agent
    I think Mathis was infact a Triple agent, By asking Bond for forgivness he was playing a double bluff, so Bond would think he was only a double agent, Infact he knew what Bond knew and some of what Bond didn't know, While Bond knew only some of What Mathis knew but all of what he knew, Both Men knowing all of their own Knowlage but less of what the other knew. In a way they both knew what they knew But knew That some things where unknown to each other so had some known knowns, and some unknown knowns mixed with unknown Knowns, I hope this Clarifies matters.
    "I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
  • superdaddysuperdaddy englandPosts: 917MI6 Agent
    Thunderpussy wrote:
    I think Mathis was infact a Triple agent, By asking Bond for forgivness he was playing a double bluff, so Bond would think he was only a double agent, Infact he knew what Bond knew and some of what Bond didn't know, While Bond knew only some of What Mathis knew but all of what he knew, Both Men knowing all of their own Knowlage but less of what the other knew. In a way they both knew what they knew But knew That some things where unknown to each other so had some known knowns, and some unknown knowns mixed with unknown Knowns, I hope this Clarifies matters.
    Makes more sense than say,casting Craig as a tall, dark, handsome,sauve secret agent.
  • thesecretagentthesecretagent CornwallPosts: 2,151MI6 Agent
    Thunderpussy wrote:
    I think Mathis was infact a Triple agent, By asking Bond for forgivness he was playing a double bluff, so Bond would think he was only a double agent, Infact he knew what Bond knew and some of what Bond didn't know, While Bond knew only some of What Mathis knew but all of what he knew, Both Men knowing all of their own Knowlage but less of what the other knew. In a way they both knew what they knew But knew That some things where unknown to each other so had some known knowns, and some unknown knowns mixed with unknown Knowns, I hope this Clarifies matters.

    At last, everything has become crystal clear, thanks TP. :))
    Amazon #1 Bestselling Author. If you enjoy crime, espionage, action and fast-moving thrillers follow this link:

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  • Thunderbird 2Thunderbird 2 East of Cardiff, Wales.Posts: 2,817MI6 Agent
    The Secret Agent - Thank You for post 21. My thinking exactly.

    Thunderpussy wrote:
    I think Mathis was infact a Triple agent, By asking Bond for forgivness he was playing a double bluff, so Bond would think he was only a double agent, Infact he knew what Bond knew and some of what Bond didn't know, While Bond knew only some of What Mathis knew but all of what he knew, Both Men knowing all of their own Knowlage but less of what the other knew. In a way they both knew what they knew But knew That some things where unknown to each other so had some known knowns, and some unknown knowns mixed with unknown Knowns, I hope this Clarifies matters.

    Thunderpussy, will you PLEASE stop reading the novelisations of Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister before logging in?! - That's my trademark! :D
    This is Thunderbird 2, how can I be of assistance?
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,757Chief of Staff
    SilentSpy wrote:
    I'll try to explain my thinking on this. I didn't think that Vesper had direct control over the money. Even though she says "I'm the money" once Bond gets the money, it's his. Remember the banker. Now, when Bond needs more money, Vesper probably would need to put in a request. Which she didn't want to do. She wanted Bond out of the game to save her "boyfriend" who she thought would be killed. Bond didn't want to ask M for the money because Vesper would probably complain that Bond is too reckless and would just lose the money again.

    But Bond never has the money as such, he just transfers it to the banker and then is allowed to enter the game. He is given chips/plaques to play with - until he has either won it all, or lost it all...no middle ground.
    When Bond loses and needs to buy back in, he asks Vesper for the money....it's made clear she has the final say so as to whether he gets the reserve money or not...that is why she is there, to 'see' if Bond is worth buying back into the game...
    I'm not sure that Vesper has any instructions as to the outcome of the poker game....she isn't playing and can't influence the deck, so....
    Bond could ask M for more money all he wants....it's NOT her money and she has no control over the money whatsoever ! The money belongs to the Treasury...that's made perfectly clear....and so M has no call on that. Remember the guy from the Treasury at the end who is with M and asks why they haven't had the money deposited into their account yet ?

    SilentSpy wrote:
    I always assumed Vesper told Le Chiffre (either directly or indirectly) that Bond knew his tell. As I mentioned I think in this or another post, Eva Green gives a great performance as Vesper through her facial expressions. For example, after Bond gets back in the poker game, Vesper is clearly angry.

    Again...I think Vesper doesn't help Le Chiffre at all....she works for Quantum....that's clear too...
    ...maybe Quantum tipped Le Chiffre off after Vesper told them, that's possible...but my money is still on Mathis...and of course she is angry...she thinks Bond will just lose more money...and annoyed that Bond found a way to get the money to buy back in...and they had just had a big argument ;)
    SilentSpy wrote:
    On the torture, I vaguely remember in the book that Vesper wasn't tortured. In the movie, Bond was going to take the password to his death. Le Chiffre enjoyed torturing him for putting him through all the trouble in the poker game. Le Chiffre probably even assumed that Bond is the guy who caused all his plans to go wrong. Anyway, after Bond wins the poker game, Vesper had no real reason to ask for the password. If anything, Vesper asking for the password would have made Bond suspicious. Torture with the threat of violence against Vesper was the best route at that time. Both for Le Chiffre who desperately needed the money and Quantum since they were most likely unsure if Vesper could get it back. Remember, Vesper didn't give Bond the extra money. She didn't know if she could get the password. So, if Bond sees Vesper injured he would correctly assume that they are going to kill them anyway. The scream is the threat of harm. If Vesper was unharmed, Bond would think they aren't serious enough and there is the possibility of escape. Then Vesper could get the password, which is pretty much what happened.

    No...in the book Vesper wasn't tortured.
    I really don't think Le Chiffre 'enjoyed' torturing Bond at all...he would have preferred just to have got the password and then to kill Bond swiftly...he knows that time is of the essence and he needs to move swiftly...
    After Bond wins the game Vesper has every reason to ask for the password - she needs to get the money back to the Treasury PDQ....and Bond would know that...they only had to wait for the banker to show up to complete the transaction...
    ...Quantum aren't too bothered by the money...it was the 'loss of face' through Le Chiffre that bothered them most...getting the money would just have been a bonus to them...
    ...Vesper always knew she would get the password...or at least get Bond to enter the password in...remember that Vesper had to enter in the bank account details [which she did] and that the money then went, not directly to a Treasury account, but to a 'resting' account....so a false threat of violence against Vesper makes no sense at all....and therefore, in my addled mind, proves that Vesper didn't work for Le Chiffre :D
    YNWA 97
  • SilentSpySilentSpy Private Exotic AreaPosts: 765MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles -

    I'll watch the movie again, I'm sure I'm approaching triple digits.

    I never saw Vesper enter an account number before Bond's first meeting with the Banker so I didn't think that Vesper had final call on the money situation. I remember the Treasury officer but you would think that M has some sway over the money her department is receiving and not leaving everything up to one young accountant.

    Also, I think Vesper is angry not over the money but the fact that her "boyfriend" is at risk and this spy somehow managed to get back in the game. Vesper doesn't know about the CIA as far as we know. Bond suspects someone about the tell reveal and probably the poison as well. I think Vesper saying give me the password at dinner would make him ask questions. Especially since she didn't know what deal Bond had with the CIA. She had to wait to see how things played out. We don't know how far along Quantum is in Casino Royale so $100+ Million (I think) could have hurt them as far as we know.

    Another thing, although I want to watch the movie again to be sure. But who else but Vesper was close enough to Bond to know about the tracking device? Mathis sure wasn't. I think Vesper noticed it when she saved Bond from the poison. I also remember a seedy looking guy or maybe one of Le Chiffre's people near Vesper at one point. I'll check again. I know Vesper was working for Quantum and Le Chiffre was an agent of Quantum. The question is how much did Vesper conspire with Le Chiffre? Mathis always showed that he was against Le Chiffre. From the corrupt cop (producer cameo), tracking Le Chiffre, and body dumping.

    How can you not assume that Le Chiffre didn't enjoy torturing Bond? The guy takes off his jacket, has a rope ready, talks about dispensing pain, probably did the torture on Solange, and even finds the whole thing funny at one point.

    The whole Mathis thing really added confusion. I guess I never assumed Mathis was a traitor. There is nothing to suggest it other than the word of a bad guy and Bond's own paranoia at all the things happening around him.
    "Better late than never."
  • Sir MilesSir Miles The Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,757Chief of Staff
    SilentSpy wrote:
    Sir Miles -

    I'll watch the movie again, I'm sure I'm approaching triple digits.

    Well...that's hardly a hardship :))
    SilentSpy wrote:
    I never saw Vesper enter an account number before Bond's first meeting with the Banker so I didn't think that Vesper had final call on the money situation. I remember the Treasury officer but you would think that M has some sway over the money her department is receiving and not leaving everything up to one young accountant.

    It doesn't show Vesper enter an account number at the start, only Bond enter his password...but that may only have been to set up the password for verification later...
    But M's department doesn't receive the money...neither does Bond really...he just gets the chips/plaques...and why send Vesper if she doesn't have control or the experience to deal with the situation..?...they wouldn't send a novice...
    SilentSpy wrote:
    Also, I think Vesper is angry not over the money but the fact that her "boyfriend" is at risk and this spy somehow managed to get back in the game. Vesper doesn't know about the CIA as far as we know. Bond suspects someone about the tell reveal and probably the poison as well. I think Vesper saying give me the password at dinner would make him ask questions. Especially since she didn't know what deal Bond had with the CIA. She had to wait to see how things played out. We don't know how far along Quantum is in Casino Royale so $100+ Million (I think) could have hurt them as far as we know.

    Was Yusuf Kabira already dead though ? Or was the ruse about his death only used when Vesper died..?...not sure about that myself...but I think he could have been [or Vesper told that he was]....thats why she stops wearing the necklace...
    SilentSpy wrote:
    Another thing, although I want to watch the movie again to be sure. But who else but Vesper was close enough to Bond to know about the tracking device? Mathis sure wasn't. I think Vesper noticed it when she saved Bond from the poison. I also remember a seedy looking guy or maybe one of Le Chiffre's people near Vesper at one point. I'll check again. I know Vesper was working for Quantum and Le Chiffre was an agent of Quantum. The question is how much did Vesper conspire with Le Chiffre? Mathis always showed that he was against Le Chiffre. From the corrupt cop (producer cameo), tracking Le Chiffre, and body dumping.

    I think Mathis would know about the tracking device...or have a blooming good idea about it...he is an experienced field officer after all and would have come across them before....plus don't forget Mitchell either....he would definately know about the tracker and report such to Quantum....
    ...was Le Chiffre an agent of Quantum...?...he was certainly a 'banker' for people/groups that knew Quantum...but does it state that he IS an agent for Quantum...?...
    SilentSpy wrote:
    How can you not assume that Le Chiffre didn't enjoy torturing Bond? The guy takes off his jacket, has a rope ready, talks about dispensing pain, probably did the torture on Solange, and even finds the whole thing funny at one point.

    I don't assume that...I watch the scene and the acting....I take off my jacket for - doesn't mean I enjoy it though :)) He talks about pain/torture to try and get the information he needs WITHOUT having to torture Bond...watch that scene again...Le Chiffre sweats profusely...you can see the tension in his eyes and face...he's only doing this to get the information he needs...he's a money man...and his laugh is that of a nervous man...of one who understands what he HAS to do...not because he enjoys it at all...
    SilentSpy wrote:
    The whole Mathis thing really added confusion. I guess I never assumed Mathis was a traitor. There is nothing to suggest it other than the word of a bad guy and Bond's own paranoia at all the things happening around him.

    I always thought he was....otherwise why have the whole "do we forgive each other..?.." speech in QoS ? If he's not a traitor then what has Mathis got to ask forgiveness for ???
    YNWA 97
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    I thought it meant, Mathis was to forgive Bond for getting him tortured for no reason.

    Then again, if he was a traitor, then Bond didn't do much wrong really, he wasn't innocent at all. So why should Bond ask for forgiveness?

    Both films a complete mess imo, but CR managed to hide it was wearing no knickers at the time.
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • BLU8BLU8 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 418MI6 Agent
    Sir Miles wrote:
    I always thought he was....otherwise why have the whole "do we forgive each other..?.." speech in QoS ? If he's not a traitor then what has Mathis got to ask forgiveness for ???

    I always interpreted it as Mathis asking forgiveness for alerting the Bolivian Police Colonel that Bond was in town, which led to the situation with the 2 motorcycle cops. Mathis told Bond that the Colonel was a trusted friend who could help, not knowing that he was in league with General Medrano & Greene. If Mathis had not told the Colonel about Bond, then perhaps Bond would not have run into trouble after the party.

    I hope it makes sense to other people, but that's the way I've always interpreted it.
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Yeah, actually that makes sense.

    Not wishing to imply that Sir Miles hasn't a foggiest about a film that he rates so highly however, that would be just rude of me... :p :D
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
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