I always interpreted it as Mathis asking forgiveness for alerting the Bolivian Police Colonel that Bond was in town, which led to the situation with the 2 motorcycle cops. Mathis told Bond that the Colonel was a trusted friend who could help, not knowing that he was in league with General Medrano & Greene. If Mathis had not told the Colonel about Bond, then perhaps Bond would not have run into trouble after the party.
I hope it makes sense to other people, but that's the way I've always interpreted it.
Hmmm...food for thought at least...although the 'situation' and 'trouble after the party' is a nice way of saying Mathis getting himself killed ) So I don't really buy that explanation 100%....doesn't mean it's wrong....it just doesn't add up enough for me...
YNWA 97
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,757Chief of Staff
Not wishing to imply that Sir Miles hasn't a foggiest about a film that he rates so highly however, that would be just rude of me...
Yes well...plaiting custard makes sense to you )
Hey...life would be soooo boring if everything was spoonfed to you and you didn't have to think for yourself...and it IS a great film, Nap...just don't buy the £5 version
Sir miles, your watchful eye always keeps us entertained...
Btw u hv a pm from me....before u fire back 8-)
I may have inadvertently started this, as in another thread I suggested that that the way Bond treats Mathis during death is only plausable (to me at least) if indeed Mathis was a traitor, or at the very least believed to be one by Bond. Subsequent tortured and convoluted justifications, theories, counter-therioes desprtatley trying to make sense of the mess only serve to highlight what a confused and half-baked film it is. I also noted the counter view, that it goes to demonstrate what a complex, challenging & sophisticated film it is, and those that don't buy it, simply don't get it. I was joking with the last point, but that is precisely what has happened.
The implicit suggestion that it is the fault of those who don't get it for not being sophisticated enough to cope with the subtleties and nuances of a Bond film.
otherwise why have the whole "do we forgive each other..?.." speech in QoS ?
I agree that Mathis was a traitor. I think this scene just pointed out the differences between him and Bond. Mathis needed to know – he realised he was dying, and he didn’t want things left unsaid between them. Bond had just assumed forgiveness – but not said it out loud – Mathis needed confirmation. (Sensitive types need that sometimes )
It also leads beautifully onto Mathis telling Bond to forgive Vesper. Sometimes it takes another person, to point out the obvious (and Mathis knew how much Bond was internalising his feelings) – and to let Bond finally allow his feelings for Vesper be felt – and mourned, rather than hidden away, and pretend like she never happened.
Just my ‘female, sensitive take’ on the situation….. )
She's worth whatever chaos she brings to the table and you know it. ~ Mark Anthony
I believe that Vesper was the only traitor. Mathis wanted Bond to forgive him for the corrupt police chief situation. I dont think Mathis knew the police chief was corrupt but felt responsible towards Bond for alerting the police to him.
I believe that Vesper was the only traitor. Mathis wanted Bond to forgive him for the corrupt police chief situation. I dont think Mathis knew the police chief was corrupt but felt responsible towards Bond for alerting the police to him.
No disrespect DC007 - but I can't believe* Mathis would have such a heart filled plea with Bond, in his last few minutes, to be asking for forgiveness for the corruption of Chief of Police - I do believe he was asking to be forgiven for his role as a double (or triple) agent.
Plus Bond asks him about his code name.
*...but I have been known to get it wrong....
She's worth whatever chaos she brings to the table and you know it. ~ Mark Anthony
But hang on, didn't Mathis stitch up Le Chiffre by framing his subordinates, planting dead bodies in the boot of the car and so on in CR? Or was that to 'show' Bond that he was loyal?
Was Mathis a traitor? I spoke to my mate, and he said:
"X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO"
will the company who made the Dumpster be bringing out a special collectors edition for the release of Bond 23. I've told my family when I die not to spend a fortune on a coffin etc But have a Bond themed Burial and have a Blonde guy drop me in to a dumster as they stand around humming the Bond thyme -{ then remove my wallet to pay the Bolnde guy his fee. Ah, there won't be a dry seat in the house.
"I've been informed that there ARE a couple of QAnon supporters who are fairly regular posters in AJB."
It was a stupid scene written badly that might make more sense if there was another scene cut from the script that it built upon. Using Mathis' body seemed like an allusion to how Mathis used a body in Casino Royale, except that that situation had a purpose whereas Mathis could just as easily been left on the street to look like he'd been robbed and killed.
What bothers me more is two-fold: Giancarlo Giannini was so good as Mathis that I wished for once they'd spared what generally amounts to the sacrificial lamb in a bond film, and Mathis in the novels is obviously a sympathetic character.
- Vesper controlled the money. Bond could not bypass her by going directly to M for the money, because the money belonged to the Treasury, NOT to Mi6. Mi6 requested the funds, and was given the green light to tap into the treasury for the operation - with Vesper being appointed to the role (with help from Quantum, probably) of guarding the Treasury's money from being frivolously spent by Mi6 in a way that would directly finance terrorism. The final word on whether Bond would be given a second chance to buy in fell with Vesper, not M.
- We know Vesper was cooperating with White. We don't know if she had any contact with Le Chiffre. I, personally, doubt it. She could have passed on the information about 'the tell' to White who could have passed it on to Le Chiffre...
However, I doubt this was the case. I don't think Le Chiffre was cooperating with EITHER Vesper or White at this point. Why? His execution by White. 'Money's not as valuable to our organization as knowing who to trust'. It's unlikely that Le Chiffre and White were cooperating during the casino game and the aftermath. After all, why would White kill Le Chiffre if they were in cahoots at that point? If they were buddied-up at that point, White likely would've been in the interrogation chamber helping Le Chiffre torture Bond, not interrupting the process by blowing Le Chiffre's brains out, because they had the same goal - only they didn't, exactly. Quantum wasn't so much after the money as Le Chiffre himself.
Le Chiffre had gone rogue at this point (like the character from the story). Le Chiffre had been entrusted by Quantum as a banker, specializing in 'conflict investment' (for a definition of this term, see the excellent Richard K Morgan novel, 'Market Forces). Le Chiffre violated that trust before the card game began, and like his literary counterpart, he cooked up the card game as a desperate attempt to get the money back so he could avoid execution.
White/Quantum have an ace in the hole... a double-agent they turned, via coercion, in the Treasury - Vesper. Whether Le Chiffre or Bond win the game, Quantum can get their money.
(Though, I'm amused by the notion of one of the other players winning, like the elderly lady or the fat guy. Imagine the movie ending after Fat Guy wins.... and both Le Chiffre and Bond say, 'Well, ****.') ) Though I guess that would still count as a win for Bond...
Anyway, if Vesper wasn't connected to Le Chiffre either directly or by way of Quantum, then that only leaves Mathis as the 'traitor'. I'm willing to buy that. It's not too much of a stretch. Mathis seemed like one of those types that are so far undercover for so long that they lose sight of allegiances, having lived, at his age, through the Cold War, in a business full of double-crossing, briberies, etc. Was he even Mi6 in the film, or was he an allied intelligence operative as in the novel? Either way, he perhaps wasn't fully briefed or truly aware of what was at stake in the card game. Imagine that he is so used to being an outside field agent - never given the full story for 'need to know' reasons - that from his perspective, all he knows is that Bond is bankrolled by Mi6 to play a silly poker game against this other guy, for reasons unknown to him. He's so used to being underpaid, and mistrusting others/being mistrusted, that it's not unbelievable for his character to take a bribe for revealing that Bond knows Le Chiffre's tell. He doesn't know what's really at stake, and that it's putting lives in direct danger.
On the other hand, it wouldn't even have to be a direct collaboration between him and Le Chiffre directly. Imagine if Le Chiffre or his men managed to bribe/coerce Mathis' station chief (his boss) or someone else in his branch. Imagine that Mathis has a superior - let's say he's improbably named Larry - who pesters Mathis for updates about how the operation is going. Mathis tells Larry about the tell, who passes it on to Le Chiffre. Whether it was Mathis himself or corruption in his department doesn't really matter to the story. Le Chiffre's line about 'our friend Mathis' would then be an ironic one, in the sense that they were getting the knowledge from Mathis without his knowledge. In either case, his apology to Bond in the end is justified, whether he was directly responsible, or by failure of indiscretion; and either scenario fits in with the recurring theme in the two films about trust/not trusting/knowing who to trust/etc.
In any case, i think the events of QoS back up the notion that Mathis wasn't completely clean. His dirty dealings with the Bolivian police chief, I think, were evidence of Mathis' lack of standards where allegiances are concerned. Spy business is dirty business. You can claim that Mathis thought the Bolivian police chief was a genuinely nice guy, but look at it this way: if it came to light that the chief of police of, say, Chicago was being bribed by a spy in Montenegro, what would you assume about said police chief? Obviously, Mathis had gotten in too far and too deep, and paid the price for it when a higher bidder came along (Greene). Reinforcing the theme of the two films, he lost perspective on the issue of 'who to trust'. Bond's lesson in these films: Trust no one.
Sir MilesThe Wrong Side Of The WardrobePosts: 27,757Chief of Staff
I’ve figured out the answer to the question of whether Mathis is a traitor and some of the other ideas presented in this thread. It’s funny how a poor sequel can bring out the flaws of a good movie. I haven’t fully watched Casino Royale in a while. Probably because of how disappointing Quantum of Solace was as a sequel. I’ve read into a few things with Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace so we’ll probably have to agree to disagree on some things. Anyway, let’s start from the beginning and go according to the characters. James Bond and the bad or potentially bad characters around him in Casino Royale.
James Bond
What we know about Bond from the original films and books is that he is a man with few friends and those that he has he trusts completely. He will always go out of his way to help a friend. This is extremely important to what occurs in Casino Royale between Bond and his allies. How you view this current Bond’s characteristics (the same or different from what we know) will influence how you see his allies in the two movies.
Le Chiffre
A definite bad guy. I called him an agent of Quantum in this thread. That might be too strong but he is probably one of the go to guys for Quantum. Mr. White says “you asked for the introduction, that’s all my organization will guarantee” to the warlord. This isn’t a simple I’ll introduce you to a guy I know who fixes cars or something of that nature. Also, recall the final shot of Mr. White watching as Le Chiffre drives away like he is aware of his schemes.
Le Chiffre is a torturer not some yuppie accountant like Truman Lodge. He says “nothing sinister” during the opening poker game about the blood from his eye but he is sinister. He’s deadly serious about the “throw them overboard” line. He plotted to blow up the Skyfleet prototype. It was his plan according to Dimitrios. Although, it would have been even more sinister if we actually saw people entering or aboard the Skyfleet. Le Chiffre says “someone talked” about the failure of his plan and we can assume it’s him who tortures Solange. According to M she was the only one left to question. It’s safe to say that Quantum didn’t do it. When Le Chiffre is surprised in the hotel, one of the warlords says “not a word of protest” about the machete almost cutting off Valenka’s arm. Even though Le Chiffre is sweating, he’s clearly the type to dispense torture but not take it. When Bond is captured, Le Chiffre’s bodyguard knows the routine with the chair because they’ve done this before. I doubt they discussed a new method of torture on route to their location and he just didn’t pick up a rope and wonder if this will work. Le Chiffre claims it’s “the simplest thing” because he’s tried other forms of torture. The conversation tells a lot about the end result of Le Chiffre's victims. Le Chiffre is sweating when he tortures Bond but so is Bond. They are in a poorly ventilated and most likely unairconditioned ship it seems. He takes his tie off too. Le Chiffre does know that more people are coming after him. But he assumes that he will get the password with this method. In the end, Le Chiffre is ready to cut and feed Bond his family jewels. If that’s not a torturer I don’t know what is.
Vesper
She is easily the most complex Bond girl ever if you can even call her a Bond girl. I always thought she needed one or two more scenes to really get her character. Maybe another eating scene or just a scene with all the good guys together discussing the plan. I’m positive of this now after the whole Mathis thing...
To start, when Bond gets the mission, M mentions 10 million buy in and 5 million re-buy. So as far as she’s concerned Bond has the money. She mentions nothing about Vesper or the Treasury Department’s conditions. No talk about not messing things up or anything like that from M. As much as M chastises Bond you would think she would mention something. Quantum sends Vesper there to stop Bond from getting back in the game with the re-buy. If they do this, that means they are still giving Le Chiffre a chance to recover the money. The whole thing about the Treasury Department worried about money going to fund terrorism is silly as Le Chiffre is a money man for these people. If Bond loses and Le Chiffre wins that will happen. The 10 million is already lost, might as well use the 5 million but Vesper has no intention of that as she’s there to prevent the re-buy. I don’t think Vesper thinks she will have to steal the money and lose everything including her life until sometime after the victory dinner scene. After all, stopping a re-buy is one thing. There’s no escape from stealing millions. She can’t cover that...
Vesper tells Bond that 10 million was wired to his account on the train. She can’t stop this only the re-buy. That train scene is also the first time we see Vesper’s tell with her hand position and Bond mentioning bluffing. It’s not so much an expression of sorrow and disappointment at her actions here like later in the movie. But just a tell that something is going on with her character.
At the Casino, Bond’s account becomes “password protected” at the Basel Bank until win or lose. This is basically for the story purposes of further showing Vesper’s emotions later in the movie when she realizes that the password was her name.
Where I believe Vesper first shows that she is the traitor is revealed at 1:27:57 - 1:28:00 in the movie. This is when Bond is about to lose to Le Chiffre. Vesper’s tell look confirms that she was the one who told Le Chiffre (or Quantum) about the tell. This is the first time we see a real look of sadness about what she’s doing. This look is similar to everything we will see from Vesper at other key moments later in the movie as well.
Moving on to Bond’s victory dinner and the first phone call to Vesper in the hotel. Vesper’s tell (hand on face and expression) shows that something is clearly wrong and things are out of control. This is most likely Quantum saying get the money back or your “boyfriend” is dead. Vesper even touches the necklace after the Vesper drink line. I find it extremely hard to believe that Vesper turns at this first phone call. There is a bit of trust between Bond and Vesper at this point and they are seemingly alone. She could have trusted in Bond but didn’t. It’s hard to believe that this call is from Mathis asking her to go back to the Casino as Mathis did meet Bond at the hotel earlier in the movie. Why would Mathis need Vesper anyway? This is a cover story. If it was Mathis informing about CIA contact with Le Chiffre and this is the first time we see Vesper even finding out about the CIA’s involvement, why would Vesper have the reaction she does if all she had to do was send the money to Quantum to save her “boyfriend?” She should care less about Le Chiffre. One could assume that Vesper is worried Le Chiffre will tell about her involvement but the whole thing with the necklace tells that her concern is with her “boyfriend.” This is proof that the deal for the return of all the money wasn’t made yet. I believe that Vesper is a good person however she is a double agent and compromised by threats against her “boyfriend.” I’m positive that Vesper’s line about choice shows that she already choose to help Quantum or did something (revealing Le Chiffre’s tell) at some point and can’t go back.
Second call from Quantum maybe even Le Chiffre is to go outside. I don’t think Le Chiffre/Quantum assumed Bond would follow her. I also still don’t get the whole guy sneaking up behind Vesper unless it was part of the setup. Here is where the book staging in front of hotel makes more sense but it’s not as dramatic as the car flip...Also, does Bond lose control and crash because the streets are damp or he’s under the influence of alcohol? You would think the gravel in the Quantum of Solace opening would be a big problem for him. But he drives just fine there and does a spin in a two lane tunnel like an expert. Anyway, I would assume most see Vesper’s kidnapping as Le Chiffre’s people not Quantum. But to what gain? They don’t go after Bond and are lucky Bond even goes out looking for Vesper. Le Chiffre knows that Vesper doesn’t have the password...Is it safe to assume Vesper is quickly questioned by Le Chiffre in the car? Why else would Le Chiffre risk dumping her out of the car if he didn’t get the account number at that point. Is Le Chiffre’s line during Bond’s torture of “Miss Lynd will give me the account number, if she hasn’t already” a slip up?
During the torture scene, Mr. White comes from the door on the left not the right. Mr. White could have been waiting at the location or he sneaks in. Is Le Chiffre’s line to Bond about MI6 still taking him in after torturing Bond and Vesper what put Mr. White into kill mode? I’m leaning on that reasoning. Mr. White probably gave Le Chiffre and few minutes to get the information. On a side note, Mr. White fires two shots but three of Le Chiffre’s people went into the room on the left. Two bodyguards and Valenka. However, here is most likely where the deal to save Bond and get the money is quickly made between Mr. White & Vesper.
During Bond’s recovery, Vesper is shocked and saddened that her name is the password. Note her immediate expression. The notion that Bond trusted her from the beginning is too much for her. That she could have saved Bond from torture at the hands of Le Chiffre and possibly the life of her boyfriend by giving the money to Quantum earlier is showing emotionally.
At the beach scene, you would think Vesper would say Mathis told me to meet him outside and got her kidnapped. But she says Mathis knowing he’s innocent about the poker tell. Once again the look on her face tells all. It’s very subtle but enough to show guilt of her actions.
In the end, Vesper commits suicide because her actions crossing the point of no return. Not to mention the broken trust with Bond. As he says on the beach about Mathis, “lesson learned.” That trust could never be rebuilt and Vesper knows it.
Mathis
Finally, the Mathis question...He was always similar to Kerim Bay to me. The older, trustworthy character that helps Bond on his mission.
There are only two possible things that could point to Mathis being a traitor.
1. When we first meet Mathis he says there is “no we, just me.” However, after the first poker session he talks about reporting “on this evenings frivolities.” Who is he reporting to? MI6?
2. After Bonds final poker victory, we don’t see Mathis. Has he gone to Le Chiffre?
Still, with these two instances, there is no logic or motivation for Mathis to be a traitor. If Mathis was working with Le Chiffre would he really try the poison in the drink trick again during Bond’s recovery? Bond was already poisoned once. There was no way he was going to drink what Mathis gave him. It’s kind of like if you’ve ever had food poisoning. No way are you going back to the restaurant no matter what they say. Also, Mathis’ look is one of disbelief at Bond thinking he is a traitor.
If Mathis did pass the information about Le Chiffre’s tell, made the call to Vesper to arrange the kidnapping, and even did attempt to poison Bond again. No way would Bond trust Mathis in Quantum of Solace. Nor would Mathis be not only freed by M but rewarded. He would be an accessory and partially responsible for Bond’s poker loss and endangering the live of both Vesper and Bond.
Remember how upset Bond was at not getting back in the poker game and how Le Chiffre winning would fund terrorism? Imagine how angry he would be if he knew it was Mathis who had something to do with the tell causing the loss and that M rewarded Mathis with a house and extravagant lifestyle. It doesn’t make sense. Bond assassinates the Dryden in the opening for making a little money on the side selling secrets. Mathis making a little money on the side selling out Bond thus allowing terrorists to have funds would put Mathis in the same boat as Dryden to me. Whether Mathis knew it or not, I don’t think Bond would go for this.
Mathis’ first line in Quantum of Solace to Bond is “come to apologize.” Would a traitor say this? There is even the reverse From Russia With Love scene. Mathis’ lady friend calls him but he ends up going with Bond to his death. Unlike Kerim Bay who decided to “rest” with his woman and avoided the limpet mine.
I honestly don’t understand why Bond needs Mathis anyway in Quantum of Solace. It’s obvious that Bond still has access to cash. He shows skill with computers in Casino Royale by tracking Dimitrios. He figures out M’s password and does research on his targets. Tanner is shown researching Bond’s photos of the Quantum members. Bond could have attempted to hack MI6 to identify the Quantum members. On another note, with all the cell phone checking in Casino Royale, Bond could have checked Vesper’s cell to see if it was really Mathis that was texting during the victory dinner. Or at least had the MI6 techs take a look if the record was deleted.
I just don’t believe that Mathis had anything to do with Le Chiffre. With the best movies, all the pieces are there. One doesn’t have to assume this might be what character is thinking or maybe some other un-introduced character did something. What I do buy is that Quantum of Solace is a mess of a movie. Even Martin Campbell recently called it lousy. Bond would essentially break Goldfinger’s three rules if Mathis is a traitor and still trust him! Bond’s lesson as he says on the beach in Casino Royale wouldn’t be learned at all and Bond would not only trust Mathis but consider him a friend. At times, Casino Royale is almost good enough to go with the classic Bond films. However, Quantum of Solace and this whole Mathis situation made Casinos flaws/vague plot lines more apparent to me. Classic Bond films like Thunderball might have continuity problems (goggles & hotel towel scene) but nothing like these vague character moments and lines that throw characters into doubt. I now see Casino Royale like OHMSS or even NSNA. Basically as a one off until next film which I hope redeems the Daniel Craig Bond films.
Nice piece silentspy - enjoyed reading it - a lot of effort went into it.
If I may, I'd like to pick up just 2 points u make.
Firstly, personally I think quantum has the standard cell operational structure common with the most dangerous terrorist organizations.
At the The head is an Executive core of senior figures who communicate with another in a very secretive manner as their positions attract a lot of attention from both enemies of the country/company they represent, and the intelligence arm of their own side. Hence the opera venue and closed circuit comms.
Below the executive level there will be a number of enclosed operational elements which accomplish the tactical efforts. This would include extortion and the washing of funds. Modern monetary systems provide a lot of scrutiny of monetary flows and its hard for criminal groups to transfer funds without becoming discovered and sequestrated. Quantum can't afford to become exposed at all.
Quantums strategy is broad - world domination via control of governments and countries through ownership and control of their politicians and police/military, and the infrastructure arteries that provide the "pinch points" of their societies. Imagine controlling the supply of power to a country. Until it can find an alternative you have that country by the balls.
That was the theme behind QoS - though water was the pinchpoint.
But it's tactics are very corporatist. They provide services - to politicians (assasination of competitors) to companies ("introductions" and smoothing) and mafias. One of the services they provide is the washing and investment of funds. Le chifre is one of the operAtional groups and one of his products is funds management and legitimizing the money - this is what the African general wants. All operational groups will have handlers who are within the executive - mr white is his handler.
I think Le chifre has some criminal latitude but is expected to do nothing that risks the groups exposure.
Le Chifre is paid by quantum, but tries to use the funds at his disposal to make more for himself - standard problem within mafias. He attempts to use the generals funds for his scam to benefit from the the terror attack on skyfleet - hoping to profit from the collapse of the share price. The put options purchased expired worthless and he lost all the generals funds. Mr white found out but allowed him to attempt to get them back with a poker game.
This is where I think the plot makes little sense. Unless mr white only found out at the last minute, surely it would have been better for quantum to eat the 50mil ( a minor sum) and kill Le chifre to prevent the risk of exposure of quantum.
Maybe white found out late and used vesper to attempt to manage the mi6 investigation of Le chifre in the hope that quantum wouldn't be exposed and they get the generals money back.
Throughout CR white has the "watcher " role epitomized by picking up the money case at the end of the film. But he couldnt have know vesper would leave her fone with bond, which allowed bond to find him.
Which leads to the second point; vesper was the traitor, and she managed to misdirect bond towards Mathis as part of her cover. So silentspy I agree with you. Mathis was totally innocent and bond realized that - hence the apology and trust.
Vesper was exploited through her relationship with Yusef and her love for him meant the threat quantum would kill him forced her to shadow the poker game in her role.
Btw mi6 only put in 10mil with a further 5 on offer. White and Le chifre needed 50 to cover the loss - no point vesper stealing the British 10mil.
Le chifre didn't know vesper was working for white/quantum- hence the kidnapping of vesper to be used as a hostage for the password. They didnt expect bond to catch them and had to improvise - they wdnt need vesper once they had bond - hence the dumping. And no way bond deliberately crashed the car. He swerved to avoid vesper.
White almost certainly had one of the guards in his pay - to keep an eye on Le chifre- hence only 2 shots - valenka and the other guard. When white knew bond wdnt give up the password he intervened and used vesper again to try to find out from bond. Why else leave vesper and bond alive ? Cos they looked a nice couple?
Once vesper had the password And access to the bank to withdraw the funds white called her in. Having fallen for bond too, she figured she could save both yusef and bond by sacrificing herself - hence she left her fone with bond; not so he would follow her but to show mi6 she was the traitor Not bond - nb he had absconded with 50mil of HMT funds! She also figured that bond might need to protect herself from white - and his fone no would help.
She followed through with her suicide At the end to protect Bond.
The rest should fall Into place and I'm afraid fits nicely with the plot extention in QoS.
As I said the only bit I find far fetched is white allowing mi6 to come so close to quantum via Le chifre for only 50mil!
Hope this helps and is only another humble opinion.
Casino Royale is so complicated on early viewings. Just the number of angles there could have been for why some people said things and who was reporting where with more allegiance. I'd like to think Mathis was with Bond deep down and Vesper was manipulated into planting the seeds for Le Chiffre and Quantum. But it is true, QoS leaves it a bit open that Mathis and Bond may have never had real trust.
Quantum of Solace was on a few times this weekend. I watched the relevant Mathis scenes again and it's incredibly clear that Mathis is not a traitor and that one forgive each other moment is a throwaway line. The two scenes before Bond and Mathis reach Bolivia are key.
When Bond first shows up at Mathis' place. Mathis says "what are you doing here, come to apologize?" Mathis is surprised that Bond even has the nerve to show up after accusing him of being a traitor. Bond even says at one point that Mathis is the only person he can trust.
On the plane, Bond asks Mathis why he came with him. Mathis' response is something like "it takes a lot to admit that you were wrong." These are two friends who let another person (Vesper) damage their relationship. They are trying to mend things.
Also, I think I realized why Mathis is placed in the garbage too. This moment was the movie jumping the ship, nuking the fridge, whatever moment for me originally. Of course, QoS continued with the jumping out of the plane sequence, Goldfinger homage, Zorin axe battle homage, and others. Bond also does something incredibly stupid before the Mathis scene. He simply walks away from Fields after she trips Greene's bodyguard making all that commotion. Then proceeds to ask Camille to show him some area Greene is working in. Forget about the untrained agent that he seduced and escorted to this party is now alone with the person he knows is a bad guy. The fact that it was a public party was meaningless since Greene's people didn't care during the last encounter with Bond.
Anyway, I now think that Bond places Mathis in the garbage because there is simply no where else to put him. They aren't going to drive around with his body or leave him in the middle of the street. The hospital would ask questions. The garbage was the only thing around unless Bond decided to break into the bus behind that gate...
I think Mathis was infact a Triple agent, By asking Bond for forgivness he was playing a double bluff, so Bond would think he was only a double agent, Infact he knew what Bond knew and some of what Bond didn't know, While Bond knew only some of What Mathis knew but all of what he knew, Both Men knowing all of their own Knowlage but less of what the other knew. In a way they both knew what they knew But knew That some things where unknown to each other so had some known knowns, and some unknown knowns mixed with unknown Knowns, I hope this Clarifies matters.
I think Mathis was infact a Triple agent, By asking Bond for forgivness he was playing a double bluff, so Bond would think he was only a double agent, Infact he knew what Bond knew and some of what Bond didn't know, While Bond knew only some of What Mathis knew but all of what he knew, Both Men knowing all of their own Knowlage but less of what the other knew. In a way they both knew what they knew But knew That some things where unknown to each other so had some known knowns, and some unknown knowns mixed with unknown Knowns, I hope this Clarifies matters.
Being a big fan of Bond films and writer Paul Haggis (Crash being one of the better movies over the past 10 years), i think his writing style appears complex with all his character development and the way they all interweave with each other, but by the end, everything is just where it needs to be with nothing hidden.
Its quantum who ultimately has control over everyone and as mr white says, "the first thing you need to know about us is that we have people everywhere." And funnily enough this is all you really need to know. They did have control of everyone so that if one side failed, one would pick up the slack. All in all, as every villain does, to achieve world domination.
I believe M knew about Vesper, (otherwise why in the car ride to Monte Carlo would there be a MI6 breakdown of them being a married couple), but as she says in the end of Casino Royale, "we are too busy focusing on our enemies and not enough on our friends." By the end of Quantum, you then realise that it was in fact Yasef, who was just another 'yes man' to Quantum being Bond's evil opposite so to speak. He seduces women of power for information to give to Quantum. It was Vesper who gave up key information to Le Chiffre to save Yasef, but was eventually seduced by the one and only James Bond. Then understanding that the money is all White and Quantum wanted, she in turn gave the money and ultimately her life to save Bond. After all at the beginning of Quantum when Mr White says, "I was always very interested to meet you. I heard so much about you from Vesper. The real shame is, if she hadn't killed herself we would've had you too." Vesper was just a loose end to Quantum once they had to money.
I believe Le Chiffre was the money man, (why else would he be called Le Chiffre - french translation 'the figure'), who made profits for Quantum. Once he failed, he was a loose end. As many users said before, is clearly skilled in torture methods, and his bleeding eye has to be a product of that. Probably the receiving end. White needed both Vesper (for the account number) and Bond (for the password) alive so as to gain the bonds. Otherwise why would the bank give it to someone who wasn't Bond or Vesper?
Finally, as the forum states, Mathis. Mathis was unfortunately stuck in the middle of it all. Did all of James' dirty work, then blamed for the trading of information. He finally forgives James as they were both just pawns in major schemes.
Casino Royale is the stronger of the two movies, as Haggis does best, intertwining all the characters nicely. There hasnt been many Bonds where the Bond babe has bested him, and is portrayed nicely considering Craig's Bond is a fresh new Bond.
Comments
Hmmm...food for thought at least...although the 'situation' and 'trouble after the party' is a nice way of saying Mathis getting himself killed
Yes well...plaiting custard makes sense to you
Hey...life would be soooo boring if everything was spoonfed to you and you didn't have to think for yourself...and it IS a great film, Nap...just don't buy the £5 version
Probably not the outcome we were looking for
But glad it keeps you entertained
Sir miles, your watchful eye always keeps us entertained...
Btw u hv a pm from me....before u fire back 8-)
I may have inadvertently started this, as in another thread I suggested that that the way Bond treats Mathis during death is only plausable (to me at least) if indeed Mathis was a traitor, or at the very least believed to be one by Bond. Subsequent tortured and convoluted justifications, theories, counter-therioes desprtatley trying to make sense of the mess only serve to highlight what a confused and half-baked film it is. I also noted the counter view, that it goes to demonstrate what a complex, challenging & sophisticated film it is, and those that don't buy it, simply don't get it. I was joking with the last point, but that is precisely what has happened.
The implicit suggestion that it is the fault of those who don't get it for not being sophisticated enough to cope with the subtleties and nuances of a Bond film.
Again, what a hoot.
"Now just wait a minute, think what you're doing...!"
Roger Moore 1927-2017
I agree that Mathis was a traitor. I think this scene just pointed out the differences between him and Bond. Mathis needed to know – he realised he was dying, and he didn’t want things left unsaid between them. Bond had just assumed forgiveness – but not said it out loud – Mathis needed confirmation. (Sensitive types need that sometimes
It also leads beautifully onto Mathis telling Bond to forgive Vesper. Sometimes it takes another person, to point out the obvious (and Mathis knew how much Bond was internalising his feelings) – and to let Bond finally allow his feelings for Vesper be felt – and mourned, rather than hidden away, and pretend like she never happened.
Just my ‘female, sensitive take’ on the situation…..
No disrespect DC007 - but I can't believe* Mathis would have such a heart filled plea with Bond, in his last few minutes, to be asking for forgiveness for the corruption of Chief of Police - I do believe he was asking to be forgiven for his role as a double (or triple) agent.
Plus Bond asks him about his code name.
*...but I have been known to get it wrong....
Roger Moore 1927-2017
"X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( NO, NO, no no NO NO NO NO NO NO X-( :v :v no no NO NO NO NO NO NO"
Roger Moore 1927-2017
What bothers me more is two-fold: Giancarlo Giannini was so good as Mathis that I wished for once they'd spared what generally amounts to the sacrificial lamb in a bond film, and Mathis in the novels is obviously a sympathetic character.
I look forward to your answer -{
- We know Vesper was cooperating with White. We don't know if she had any contact with Le Chiffre. I, personally, doubt it. She could have passed on the information about 'the tell' to White who could have passed it on to Le Chiffre...
However, I doubt this was the case. I don't think Le Chiffre was cooperating with EITHER Vesper or White at this point. Why? His execution by White. 'Money's not as valuable to our organization as knowing who to trust'. It's unlikely that Le Chiffre and White were cooperating during the casino game and the aftermath. After all, why would White kill Le Chiffre if they were in cahoots at that point? If they were buddied-up at that point, White likely would've been in the interrogation chamber helping Le Chiffre torture Bond, not interrupting the process by blowing Le Chiffre's brains out, because they had the same goal - only they didn't, exactly. Quantum wasn't so much after the money as Le Chiffre himself.
Le Chiffre had gone rogue at this point (like the character from the story). Le Chiffre had been entrusted by Quantum as a banker, specializing in 'conflict investment' (for a definition of this term, see the excellent Richard K Morgan novel, 'Market Forces). Le Chiffre violated that trust before the card game began, and like his literary counterpart, he cooked up the card game as a desperate attempt to get the money back so he could avoid execution.
White/Quantum have an ace in the hole... a double-agent they turned, via coercion, in the Treasury - Vesper. Whether Le Chiffre or Bond win the game, Quantum can get their money.
(Though, I'm amused by the notion of one of the other players winning, like the elderly lady or the fat guy. Imagine the movie ending after Fat Guy wins.... and both Le Chiffre and Bond say, 'Well, ****.')
Anyway, if Vesper wasn't connected to Le Chiffre either directly or by way of Quantum, then that only leaves Mathis as the 'traitor'. I'm willing to buy that. It's not too much of a stretch. Mathis seemed like one of those types that are so far undercover for so long that they lose sight of allegiances, having lived, at his age, through the Cold War, in a business full of double-crossing, briberies, etc. Was he even Mi6 in the film, or was he an allied intelligence operative as in the novel? Either way, he perhaps wasn't fully briefed or truly aware of what was at stake in the card game. Imagine that he is so used to being an outside field agent - never given the full story for 'need to know' reasons - that from his perspective, all he knows is that Bond is bankrolled by Mi6 to play a silly poker game against this other guy, for reasons unknown to him. He's so used to being underpaid, and mistrusting others/being mistrusted, that it's not unbelievable for his character to take a bribe for revealing that Bond knows Le Chiffre's tell. He doesn't know what's really at stake, and that it's putting lives in direct danger.
On the other hand, it wouldn't even have to be a direct collaboration between him and Le Chiffre directly. Imagine if Le Chiffre or his men managed to bribe/coerce Mathis' station chief (his boss) or someone else in his branch. Imagine that Mathis has a superior - let's say he's improbably named Larry - who pesters Mathis for updates about how the operation is going. Mathis tells Larry about the tell, who passes it on to Le Chiffre. Whether it was Mathis himself or corruption in his department doesn't really matter to the story. Le Chiffre's line about 'our friend Mathis' would then be an ironic one, in the sense that they were getting the knowledge from Mathis without his knowledge. In either case, his apology to Bond in the end is justified, whether he was directly responsible, or by failure of indiscretion; and either scenario fits in with the recurring theme in the two films about trust/not trusting/knowing who to trust/etc.
In any case, i think the events of QoS back up the notion that Mathis wasn't completely clean. His dirty dealings with the Bolivian police chief, I think, were evidence of Mathis' lack of standards where allegiances are concerned. Spy business is dirty business. You can claim that Mathis thought the Bolivian police chief was a genuinely nice guy, but look at it this way: if it came to light that the chief of police of, say, Chicago was being bribed by a spy in Montenegro, what would you assume about said police chief? Obviously, Mathis had gotten in too far and too deep, and paid the price for it when a higher bidder came along (Greene). Reinforcing the theme of the two films, he lost perspective on the issue of 'who to trust'. Bond's lesson in these films: Trust no one.
James Bond
What we know about Bond from the original films and books is that he is a man with few friends and those that he has he trusts completely. He will always go out of his way to help a friend. This is extremely important to what occurs in Casino Royale between Bond and his allies. How you view this current Bond’s characteristics (the same or different from what we know) will influence how you see his allies in the two movies.
Le Chiffre
A definite bad guy. I called him an agent of Quantum in this thread. That might be too strong but he is probably one of the go to guys for Quantum. Mr. White says “you asked for the introduction, that’s all my organization will guarantee” to the warlord. This isn’t a simple I’ll introduce you to a guy I know who fixes cars or something of that nature. Also, recall the final shot of Mr. White watching as Le Chiffre drives away like he is aware of his schemes.
Le Chiffre is a torturer not some yuppie accountant like Truman Lodge. He says “nothing sinister” during the opening poker game about the blood from his eye but he is sinister. He’s deadly serious about the “throw them overboard” line. He plotted to blow up the Skyfleet prototype. It was his plan according to Dimitrios. Although, it would have been even more sinister if we actually saw people entering or aboard the Skyfleet. Le Chiffre says “someone talked” about the failure of his plan and we can assume it’s him who tortures Solange. According to M she was the only one left to question. It’s safe to say that Quantum didn’t do it. When Le Chiffre is surprised in the hotel, one of the warlords says “not a word of protest” about the machete almost cutting off Valenka’s arm. Even though Le Chiffre is sweating, he’s clearly the type to dispense torture but not take it. When Bond is captured, Le Chiffre’s bodyguard knows the routine with the chair because they’ve done this before. I doubt they discussed a new method of torture on route to their location and he just didn’t pick up a rope and wonder if this will work. Le Chiffre claims it’s “the simplest thing” because he’s tried other forms of torture. The conversation tells a lot about the end result of Le Chiffre's victims. Le Chiffre is sweating when he tortures Bond but so is Bond. They are in a poorly ventilated and most likely unairconditioned ship it seems. He takes his tie off too. Le Chiffre does know that more people are coming after him. But he assumes that he will get the password with this method. In the end, Le Chiffre is ready to cut and feed Bond his family jewels. If that’s not a torturer I don’t know what is.
Vesper
She is easily the most complex Bond girl ever if you can even call her a Bond girl. I always thought she needed one or two more scenes to really get her character. Maybe another eating scene or just a scene with all the good guys together discussing the plan. I’m positive of this now after the whole Mathis thing...
To start, when Bond gets the mission, M mentions 10 million buy in and 5 million re-buy. So as far as she’s concerned Bond has the money. She mentions nothing about Vesper or the Treasury Department’s conditions. No talk about not messing things up or anything like that from M. As much as M chastises Bond you would think she would mention something. Quantum sends Vesper there to stop Bond from getting back in the game with the re-buy. If they do this, that means they are still giving Le Chiffre a chance to recover the money. The whole thing about the Treasury Department worried about money going to fund terrorism is silly as Le Chiffre is a money man for these people. If Bond loses and Le Chiffre wins that will happen. The 10 million is already lost, might as well use the 5 million but Vesper has no intention of that as she’s there to prevent the re-buy. I don’t think Vesper thinks she will have to steal the money and lose everything including her life until sometime after the victory dinner scene. After all, stopping a re-buy is one thing. There’s no escape from stealing millions. She can’t cover that...
Vesper tells Bond that 10 million was wired to his account on the train. She can’t stop this only the re-buy. That train scene is also the first time we see Vesper’s tell with her hand position and Bond mentioning bluffing. It’s not so much an expression of sorrow and disappointment at her actions here like later in the movie. But just a tell that something is going on with her character.
At the Casino, Bond’s account becomes “password protected” at the Basel Bank until win or lose. This is basically for the story purposes of further showing Vesper’s emotions later in the movie when she realizes that the password was her name.
Where I believe Vesper first shows that she is the traitor is revealed at 1:27:57 - 1:28:00 in the movie. This is when Bond is about to lose to Le Chiffre. Vesper’s tell look confirms that she was the one who told Le Chiffre (or Quantum) about the tell. This is the first time we see a real look of sadness about what she’s doing. This look is similar to everything we will see from Vesper at other key moments later in the movie as well.
Moving on to Bond’s victory dinner and the first phone call to Vesper in the hotel. Vesper’s tell (hand on face and expression) shows that something is clearly wrong and things are out of control. This is most likely Quantum saying get the money back or your “boyfriend” is dead. Vesper even touches the necklace after the Vesper drink line. I find it extremely hard to believe that Vesper turns at this first phone call. There is a bit of trust between Bond and Vesper at this point and they are seemingly alone. She could have trusted in Bond but didn’t. It’s hard to believe that this call is from Mathis asking her to go back to the Casino as Mathis did meet Bond at the hotel earlier in the movie. Why would Mathis need Vesper anyway? This is a cover story. If it was Mathis informing about CIA contact with Le Chiffre and this is the first time we see Vesper even finding out about the CIA’s involvement, why would Vesper have the reaction she does if all she had to do was send the money to Quantum to save her “boyfriend?” She should care less about Le Chiffre. One could assume that Vesper is worried Le Chiffre will tell about her involvement but the whole thing with the necklace tells that her concern is with her “boyfriend.” This is proof that the deal for the return of all the money wasn’t made yet. I believe that Vesper is a good person however she is a double agent and compromised by threats against her “boyfriend.” I’m positive that Vesper’s line about choice shows that she already choose to help Quantum or did something (revealing Le Chiffre’s tell) at some point and can’t go back.
Second call from Quantum maybe even Le Chiffre is to go outside. I don’t think Le Chiffre/Quantum assumed Bond would follow her. I also still don’t get the whole guy sneaking up behind Vesper unless it was part of the setup. Here is where the book staging in front of hotel makes more sense but it’s not as dramatic as the car flip...Also, does Bond lose control and crash because the streets are damp or he’s under the influence of alcohol? You would think the gravel in the Quantum of Solace opening would be a big problem for him. But he drives just fine there and does a spin in a two lane tunnel like an expert. Anyway, I would assume most see Vesper’s kidnapping as Le Chiffre’s people not Quantum. But to what gain? They don’t go after Bond and are lucky Bond even goes out looking for Vesper. Le Chiffre knows that Vesper doesn’t have the password...Is it safe to assume Vesper is quickly questioned by Le Chiffre in the car? Why else would Le Chiffre risk dumping her out of the car if he didn’t get the account number at that point. Is Le Chiffre’s line during Bond’s torture of “Miss Lynd will give me the account number, if she hasn’t already” a slip up?
During the torture scene, Mr. White comes from the door on the left not the right. Mr. White could have been waiting at the location or he sneaks in. Is Le Chiffre’s line to Bond about MI6 still taking him in after torturing Bond and Vesper what put Mr. White into kill mode? I’m leaning on that reasoning. Mr. White probably gave Le Chiffre and few minutes to get the information. On a side note, Mr. White fires two shots but three of Le Chiffre’s people went into the room on the left. Two bodyguards and Valenka. However, here is most likely where the deal to save Bond and get the money is quickly made between Mr. White & Vesper.
During Bond’s recovery, Vesper is shocked and saddened that her name is the password. Note her immediate expression. The notion that Bond trusted her from the beginning is too much for her. That she could have saved Bond from torture at the hands of Le Chiffre and possibly the life of her boyfriend by giving the money to Quantum earlier is showing emotionally.
At the beach scene, you would think Vesper would say Mathis told me to meet him outside and got her kidnapped. But she says Mathis knowing he’s innocent about the poker tell. Once again the look on her face tells all. It’s very subtle but enough to show guilt of her actions.
In the end, Vesper commits suicide because her actions crossing the point of no return. Not to mention the broken trust with Bond. As he says on the beach about Mathis, “lesson learned.” That trust could never be rebuilt and Vesper knows it.
Mathis
Finally, the Mathis question...He was always similar to Kerim Bay to me. The older, trustworthy character that helps Bond on his mission.
There are only two possible things that could point to Mathis being a traitor.
1. When we first meet Mathis he says there is “no we, just me.” However, after the first poker session he talks about reporting “on this evenings frivolities.” Who is he reporting to? MI6?
2. After Bonds final poker victory, we don’t see Mathis. Has he gone to Le Chiffre?
Still, with these two instances, there is no logic or motivation for Mathis to be a traitor. If Mathis was working with Le Chiffre would he really try the poison in the drink trick again during Bond’s recovery? Bond was already poisoned once. There was no way he was going to drink what Mathis gave him. It’s kind of like if you’ve ever had food poisoning. No way are you going back to the restaurant no matter what they say. Also, Mathis’ look is one of disbelief at Bond thinking he is a traitor.
If Mathis did pass the information about Le Chiffre’s tell, made the call to Vesper to arrange the kidnapping, and even did attempt to poison Bond again. No way would Bond trust Mathis in Quantum of Solace. Nor would Mathis be not only freed by M but rewarded. He would be an accessory and partially responsible for Bond’s poker loss and endangering the live of both Vesper and Bond.
Remember how upset Bond was at not getting back in the poker game and how Le Chiffre winning would fund terrorism? Imagine how angry he would be if he knew it was Mathis who had something to do with the tell causing the loss and that M rewarded Mathis with a house and extravagant lifestyle. It doesn’t make sense. Bond assassinates the Dryden in the opening for making a little money on the side selling secrets. Mathis making a little money on the side selling out Bond thus allowing terrorists to have funds would put Mathis in the same boat as Dryden to me. Whether Mathis knew it or not, I don’t think Bond would go for this.
Mathis’ first line in Quantum of Solace to Bond is “come to apologize.” Would a traitor say this? There is even the reverse From Russia With Love scene. Mathis’ lady friend calls him but he ends up going with Bond to his death. Unlike Kerim Bay who decided to “rest” with his woman and avoided the limpet mine.
I honestly don’t understand why Bond needs Mathis anyway in Quantum of Solace. It’s obvious that Bond still has access to cash. He shows skill with computers in Casino Royale by tracking Dimitrios. He figures out M’s password and does research on his targets. Tanner is shown researching Bond’s photos of the Quantum members. Bond could have attempted to hack MI6 to identify the Quantum members. On another note, with all the cell phone checking in Casino Royale, Bond could have checked Vesper’s cell to see if it was really Mathis that was texting during the victory dinner. Or at least had the MI6 techs take a look if the record was deleted.
I just don’t believe that Mathis had anything to do with Le Chiffre. With the best movies, all the pieces are there. One doesn’t have to assume this might be what character is thinking or maybe some other un-introduced character did something. What I do buy is that Quantum of Solace is a mess of a movie. Even Martin Campbell recently called it lousy. Bond would essentially break Goldfinger’s three rules if Mathis is a traitor and still trust him! Bond’s lesson as he says on the beach in Casino Royale wouldn’t be learned at all and Bond would not only trust Mathis but consider him a friend. At times, Casino Royale is almost good enough to go with the classic Bond films. However, Quantum of Solace and this whole Mathis situation made Casinos flaws/vague plot lines more apparent to me. Classic Bond films like Thunderball might have continuity problems (goggles & hotel towel scene) but nothing like these vague character moments and lines that throw characters into doubt. I now see Casino Royale like OHMSS or even NSNA. Basically as a one off until next film which I hope redeems the Daniel Craig Bond films.
If I may, I'd like to pick up just 2 points u make.
Firstly, personally I think quantum has the standard cell operational structure common with the most dangerous terrorist organizations.
At the The head is an Executive core of senior figures who communicate with another in a very secretive manner as their positions attract a lot of attention from both enemies of the country/company they represent, and the intelligence arm of their own side. Hence the opera venue and closed circuit comms.
Below the executive level there will be a number of enclosed operational elements which accomplish the tactical efforts. This would include extortion and the washing of funds. Modern monetary systems provide a lot of scrutiny of monetary flows and its hard for criminal groups to transfer funds without becoming discovered and sequestrated. Quantum can't afford to become exposed at all.
Quantums strategy is broad - world domination via control of governments and countries through ownership and control of their politicians and police/military, and the infrastructure arteries that provide the "pinch points" of their societies. Imagine controlling the supply of power to a country. Until it can find an alternative you have that country by the balls.
That was the theme behind QoS - though water was the pinchpoint.
But it's tactics are very corporatist. They provide services - to politicians (assasination of competitors) to companies ("introductions" and smoothing) and mafias. One of the services they provide is the washing and investment of funds. Le chifre is one of the operAtional groups and one of his products is funds management and legitimizing the money - this is what the African general wants. All operational groups will have handlers who are within the executive - mr white is his handler.
I think Le chifre has some criminal latitude but is expected to do nothing that risks the groups exposure.
Le Chifre is paid by quantum, but tries to use the funds at his disposal to make more for himself - standard problem within mafias. He attempts to use the generals funds for his scam to benefit from the the terror attack on skyfleet - hoping to profit from the collapse of the share price. The put options purchased expired worthless and he lost all the generals funds. Mr white found out but allowed him to attempt to get them back with a poker game.
This is where I think the plot makes little sense. Unless mr white only found out at the last minute, surely it would have been better for quantum to eat the 50mil ( a minor sum) and kill Le chifre to prevent the risk of exposure of quantum.
Maybe white found out late and used vesper to attempt to manage the mi6 investigation of Le chifre in the hope that quantum wouldn't be exposed and they get the generals money back.
Throughout CR white has the "watcher " role epitomized by picking up the money case at the end of the film. But he couldnt have know vesper would leave her fone with bond, which allowed bond to find him.
Which leads to the second point; vesper was the traitor, and she managed to misdirect bond towards Mathis as part of her cover. So silentspy I agree with you. Mathis was totally innocent and bond realized that - hence the apology and trust.
Vesper was exploited through her relationship with Yusef and her love for him meant the threat quantum would kill him forced her to shadow the poker game in her role.
Btw mi6 only put in 10mil with a further 5 on offer. White and Le chifre needed 50 to cover the loss - no point vesper stealing the British 10mil.
Le chifre didn't know vesper was working for white/quantum- hence the kidnapping of vesper to be used as a hostage for the password. They didnt expect bond to catch them and had to improvise - they wdnt need vesper once they had bond - hence the dumping. And no way bond deliberately crashed the car. He swerved to avoid vesper.
White almost certainly had one of the guards in his pay - to keep an eye on Le chifre- hence only 2 shots - valenka and the other guard. When white knew bond wdnt give up the password he intervened and used vesper again to try to find out from bond. Why else leave vesper and bond alive ? Cos they looked a nice couple?
Once vesper had the password And access to the bank to withdraw the funds white called her in. Having fallen for bond too, she figured she could save both yusef and bond by sacrificing herself - hence she left her fone with bond; not so he would follow her but to show mi6 she was the traitor Not bond - nb he had absconded with 50mil of HMT funds! She also figured that bond might need to protect herself from white - and his fone no would help.
She followed through with her suicide At the end to protect Bond.
The rest should fall Into place and I'm afraid fits nicely with the plot extention in QoS.
As I said the only bit I find far fetched is white allowing mi6 to come so close to quantum via Le chifre for only 50mil!
Hope this helps and is only another humble opinion.
Semper fi
When Bond first shows up at Mathis' place. Mathis says "what are you doing here, come to apologize?" Mathis is surprised that Bond even has the nerve to show up after accusing him of being a traitor. Bond even says at one point that Mathis is the only person he can trust.
On the plane, Bond asks Mathis why he came with him. Mathis' response is something like "it takes a lot to admit that you were wrong." These are two friends who let another person (Vesper) damage their relationship. They are trying to mend things.
Also, I think I realized why Mathis is placed in the garbage too. This moment was the movie jumping the ship, nuking the fridge, whatever moment for me originally. Of course, QoS continued with the jumping out of the plane sequence, Goldfinger homage, Zorin axe battle homage, and others. Bond also does something incredibly stupid before the Mathis scene. He simply walks away from Fields after she trips Greene's bodyguard making all that commotion. Then proceeds to ask Camille to show him some area Greene is working in. Forget about the untrained agent that he seduced and escorted to this party is now alone with the person he knows is a bad guy. The fact that it was a public party was meaningless since Greene's people didn't care during the last encounter with Bond.
Anyway, I now think that Bond places Mathis in the garbage because there is simply no where else to put him. They aren't going to drive around with his body or leave him in the middle of the street. The hospital would ask questions. The garbage was the only thing around unless Bond decided to break into the bus behind that gate...
LMAO!!!!!!!
exactly!!
Me to...it's a deep one that QOS
He was played by a fantastic actor and is a great character in the novels. They should've kept him around longer!
Its quantum who ultimately has control over everyone and as mr white says, "the first thing you need to know about us is that we have people everywhere." And funnily enough this is all you really need to know. They did have control of everyone so that if one side failed, one would pick up the slack. All in all, as every villain does, to achieve world domination.
I believe M knew about Vesper, (otherwise why in the car ride to Monte Carlo would there be a MI6 breakdown of them being a married couple), but as she says in the end of Casino Royale, "we are too busy focusing on our enemies and not enough on our friends." By the end of Quantum, you then realise that it was in fact Yasef, who was just another 'yes man' to Quantum being Bond's evil opposite so to speak. He seduces women of power for information to give to Quantum. It was Vesper who gave up key information to Le Chiffre to save Yasef, but was eventually seduced by the one and only James Bond. Then understanding that the money is all White and Quantum wanted, she in turn gave the money and ultimately her life to save Bond. After all at the beginning of Quantum when Mr White says, "I was always very interested to meet you. I heard so much about you from Vesper. The real shame is, if she hadn't killed herself we would've had you too." Vesper was just a loose end to Quantum once they had to money.
I believe Le Chiffre was the money man, (why else would he be called Le Chiffre - french translation 'the figure'), who made profits for Quantum. Once he failed, he was a loose end. As many users said before, is clearly skilled in torture methods, and his bleeding eye has to be a product of that. Probably the receiving end. White needed both Vesper (for the account number) and Bond (for the password) alive so as to gain the bonds. Otherwise why would the bank give it to someone who wasn't Bond or Vesper?
Finally, as the forum states, Mathis. Mathis was unfortunately stuck in the middle of it all. Did all of James' dirty work, then blamed for the trading of information. He finally forgives James as they were both just pawns in major schemes.
Casino Royale is the stronger of the two movies, as Haggis does best, intertwining all the characters nicely. There hasnt been many Bonds where the Bond babe has bested him, and is portrayed nicely considering Craig's Bond is a fresh new Bond.
I think everything is pretty clear cut. -{