Double O or Double Zero?

CmdrAtticus

I have taken the "Double Oh" pronounciation for granted - until now. Everyone will say "Double Oh", then there are some who say it should really be "Double Zero". However, my question is this: whoever stated (including Fleming himself) that the two "oh's" were supposed to be digits? Just because the last number is? Since this is supposed to be a coded designation, there is no reason why the two "ohs" cannot actually be the letter o (in other words, Fleming could have used BB7 or FF7 or ZZ7. I remember reading that he originally took the classification from a secret filing system they used during the war where instead of A-Z the system used AA-ZZ, therefore 007 could have been a document labeled "7" within the 00 file, or even a page 7 perhaps. He may have chosed the "Oh" designation for the 00 section in his novels because the actual translation meant "nothing" or "no one' - to mean the section was so secret that even it's classification was beyond naming - to the point of repeating it twice to emphasize the fact. To give a modern example - the media refers to the highly secret SEAL group that took out Bin Laden as "Seal Team Six", when in fact the name became so well known the Defense Department finally changed the groups name to a new designation - Naval Special Warfare Development Group "DEVGRU". However, since this also become well known in the media it was changed again to another title, which is so secret the media still has not found out the new code name. Talk about a real "00" section...
I may be grossly misinformed about the OO code, so if any members have any input on this, please let me know.

The Domino Effect

Very interesting question. Off the top of my head I can't remember anything in any of Fleming's books that specifically defines the double-o as numbers or letters. I - quite likely like most people - just assumed they were numbers from the first time I heard or read it. Although the word zero is more commonly used today in England, as recently as twenty years ago you rarely if ever heard 'zero.' Instead it was always 'nought' or 'o'. Hence, if your telephone number ended 0123, the overwhelming majority of British people would have said 'oh-one-two-three.' That doesn't present a solid argument for numbers over letters, but it does leave the question open.

Thunderbird 2

WHat Domin "oh" said. (Sorry D!) I do a lot of telephony based work, and althougkh zero has become the way to clarify the number like the phonetic alphabet, a good percentage of people still say "Oh" over "zero."

Plus to me, Thanks to Bond and the mighty Coca Cola empire, I associate "zero zero seven" with a bloody black tin of fizzy pop! Not from QoS i hasten to add, just the merchandise blurb at the time. Does anyone else find that branding a bit off putting, like the idea of a lime green Guinness or perhaps translucent white Scotch?

Am I overthinking this?

thesecretagent

It's a British thing - most people reading out a telephone number will say "oh" and only say zero to clarify. If I read out my card number on a phone I usually start off reading out zero, but by the end I slip back to oh...

And my current Barclaycard ends in 007. I do love reading it out so... )

Thunderpussy

Same here I start all official with Zero but when I have to repeat it I'm back to "OH"
and on a seperate subject and for no reason. what might the First thirteen numbers of your card be TSA? :v
just out of interest.

JADE66

In the novel "You Only LIve Twice" Bond is promoted to the diplomatic section and given a four digit number-7777. M even references the
"Double-O section." Bond also tells M that he would prefer not to leave the Double-0 section. From this brief scene in chapter 3,
"The Impossible Mission" I think we can conclude that it is indeed Double-0-Seven and that the 0s are zeros and not letters.
Always go back to the source. B-)

thesecretagent

Thunderpussy wrote:

Same here I start all official with Zero but when I have to repeat it I'm back to "OH"
and on a seperate subject and for no reason. what might the First thirteen numbers of your card be TSA? :v
just out of interest.

Maxed out and back again, sorry TP. )

CmdrAtticus

Thanks for the YOLT reference JADE66, but even that still begs my question. The diplomatic section is a sequence of the digit 7, but that does not automatically mean that the OO section is zero zero. For example, Q Branch is an abbreviation for Quartermaster Branch, and many of the overseas station sections are designated by the first letter of the countries name (T for Turkey Branch, etc.). Also, M saying "Double O" does not necessarily mean he is saying double zero. He could literarly mean the letter O repeated. I'm not saying the double zero is incorrect - it may be - I'm just trying to find an absolute proof somewhere that it actually is. I go back to my reference in my original post....I remember reading somewhere (possibly in a Fleming bio or from another source about the filing system used in the Admiralty - and I believe it may have been used not in WWII but in WWI before Fleming.) that they used a AA through ZZ system. I'm going to start snooping through my dusty books to see if I can find that reference. Thanks for the other inputs, members. I was aware of Brits saying "oh" for zero (or naught) - I worked on a NATO base with British military and they used both all the time. Only heard zero pronounced zero when referring to military time, such as "zero five hundred hours".

pyrat

CmdrAtticus I've always found the names used by the media and in literature for certain organizations vs their real names amusing. SIS has an article on their website entitled "SIS or MI6" which you might enjoy.

JADE66

CmdrAtticus wrote:

Thanks for the YOLT reference JADE66, but even that still begs my question. The diplomatic section is a sequence of the digit 7, but that does not automatically mean that the OO section is zero zero. For example, Q Branch is an abbreviation for Quartermaster Branch, and many of the overseas station sections are designated by the first letter of the countries name (T for Turkey Branch, etc.). Also, M saying "Double O" does not necessarily mean he is saying double zero. He could literarly mean the letter O repeated. I'm not saying the double zero is incorrect - it may be - I'm just trying to find an absolute proof somewhere that it actually is. I go back to my reference in my original post....I remember reading somewhere (possibly in a Fleming bio or from another source about the filing system used in the Admiralty - and I believe it may have been used not in WWII but in WWI before Fleming.) that they used a AA through ZZ system. I'm going to start snooping through my dusty books to see if I can find that reference. Thanks for the other inputs, members. I was aware of Brits saying "oh" for zero (or naught) - I worked on a NATO base with British military and they used both all the time. Only heard zero pronounced zero when referring to military time, such as "zero five hundred hours".

I still believe that the double-0 designation must refer to two zeros. There are references throughout the series that numbers alone are used for agent designations.
In Casino Royale Chapter 3's title is "Number 007" In chapter two of the same novel a reference is made to agent 1860. In TMWTGG Fleming refers to agents 267, 398, 742 and 098, all victims of Scaramanga. When Felix Leiter shows up in Thunderball much to Bond's surprise and delight he says to his friend "007? Meet No. 000."Other clues can be found in the novels. The typeface for a zero '0" is different than for a capital 'O'. Bond makes plenty of references to his Double-0 number throughout the books but never mentions any letters., not for field agents anyway. Because of all these references I still must maintain that as is stated in so many of the books Bond is number 007.

In the end though it might be intesting to learn what two capital Os might mean in the designation if that were indeed the case.
Out of Order might be a good one, referring to the deceased target. I suppose all that rteally counts is that 007, whatever that designation means, will always be Bond. James Bond.

77007

Interesting topic. I also believe it to be numbers. Always have I guess. Dont know anything about the books. Recently watched YOLT and both Aki and Tanaka call him Zero-Zero at one point for what it's worth.

7289

There is a thread on this from a couple of years back.....

I hold the opinion that it is Double "O" as in the letter "O'. All the other sections in Bond's service are designated by letters. Bond is simply number 7 in the Double "0" section. His designation could still be a "number" it just has a "Oh Oh" prefix.

Ian Fleming had a habit of being inconsistant on small details. It may not be possible to ever know "for certain" if he had numbers or letters in mind. Prehaps they are for all purposes interchangable. Since the source for the "OO" designation was a WW2 Naval Intelligence code for "Top Secret", some clever researcher should be able to find out from the archvives if the WW2 label was intended to be numbers or letters.

I think that will answer the question as well as it can be answered.

Thunderpussy

I agree with Fleming being Inconsistant on some details, and remember reading that he had a holiday home near the white cliffs ( Moonraker) and the number of the bus in to the local village and pub was the number 007. Just a little odd fact. )