Brutality of LTK

ZorinIndustries

What did you all think of the rough edge to the film? It seems much more brutal than TLD or even GE for that matter. Della Leiter is raped and murdered, Franz Sanchez has Lupe's other boyfriend stripped of his heart... literally, Bond is out on a personal vendetta and letting nothing get in his way, including an MI-6 operative who Bond tells to "piss off." What are your thoughts?

bondrox

I loved LTK and TLD. One of the biggest reasons I was such a fan of the Dalton films is that they were more of an accurate portrait of the life of a spy to me (overall). Espionage is no doubt a violent business at times, very dangerous. I don't want to see Bond portrayed as a playboy/comedian who moonlights as a spy. To me that's a caricature and I think it's ridiculous. I don't mind some light dialogue from time to time in the films and both of Dalton's films had that (despite what I've seen some detractors say), but I only want it in very small doses. Bond's line of work is deadly serious business and I want it portrayed as such. If I want a comedic look at espionage I'll watch Austin Powers. I'm also glad they've taken Bond back in the direction they have with Craig.

77007

Yeah perhaps an 80s action edge influence on it at times. Maybe the filmmakers felt the pressure to amp it up from the success of films like Lethal Weapon and Die Hard. I hate the rig popping a wheelie though. Guess they couldn't help themselves from throwing that in.

PPK 7.65mm

As violent and brutal as LTK is, I have seen worst and far more graphic violence in R rated movies that came out in the 1990's.

Thought I still had trouble watching Felix get fed to the sharks, hearing Della was raped and then killed, watching Milton Krest's head explode and Sanchez being set on fire. While I understand that James Bond leads a violent life, their was a part of me asking how much brutal violence is too much. When I watch a movie I don't like to see people die nasty deaths like in LTK, even if is a bad guy getting what they had coming to them.

GaddGeneGadd

I just wish they would have not had some of the budget restraints in the movie. By 89 UA/MGM was really in a financial mess and you can really notice watching it now that the budget was a good deal less than TLD & AVTAK. I always thought with a AVTAK type budget LTK could have been a classic.

If you look at LTK compared to other big time late 80's action flicks like, Batman, Indiana Jones, Diehard, Lethal weapon ect. You can really notice the budget restraints.

Napoleon Plural

True GGG, I seem to have echoed your post on the Dalton thread.

The original violence was camp in that you rarely cared about it, it just looked good and dynamic. LTK tries to be real, but none of the original movies were that real. They were heightened realism.

CmdrAtticus

The fact is that probably the majority of the audience that attend the Bond films have never read Fleming's novels (and probably quite a lot don't even know his bio). They're idea of Bond and his world comes only from the films, and because the ones before Dalton were done with the violence clearly shielded by a veneer of humor, no blood shown - in fact, very little graphic in detail, the audience worldwide was taken aback by the brutality in LTK. The producers and Dalton were attempting to do a Fleming type story with Fleming's Bond, and the audience was not used to this, especially on the heels of Moore's light touch and humor filled reign. Dalton's films would have been accepted had they done Brosnan's first. So the sequence would have went: FAVTAK - GOLDENEYE - TND - TWINE - DAD -, then TLD - LTK - CR - QOS.

DFGTYODLTTMFOATLGTTDCQ

I remember going to see it in theaters in 1989 and was surprised in the darker edge than TLD before it, the official VHS release a few years later cut out a few significant bits for home release, but the recent DVD editions have included pretty much everything as intended.

Davi was included probably from his work in Die Hard and the theme arose from the cocaine movies of the mid to late 1980s, not a favorite of mine, it's a bit boring actually, and has a lame ending, I wish Dalton had done more than two features, he was the best Bond in my opinion despite everyone kissing Connery's backside.

thesecretagent

When you clock up the violence, it does seem quite a lot. But it's all still viewable on regular tv on a sunday afternoon. When I first saw LTK I thought it was a great film in that at the time I wasn't a huge Bond fan, although I'd seen them all apart from TLD and had grown up with them, and that it felt punchier and more edgy. Interestingly, my father and I watched it one christmas and he liked it saying "It wasn't like a Bond film..." he's no real Bond fan, so I think he liked the lack of humour.

Higgins

to be honest, when I saw the movie at first in the cinema, I did not find it too violent. Not sure, why the shark scenes did not touch me too much back then, the inflated Krest was just like LALD.

I am usually sensitive on these things, the stairway fight or the torture scenes in CR I cared very much for.

GaddGeneGadd

Bondtoys, maybe it just couldn't compare to the brutality of TD popping that baloon in TLD ) ) )

Higgins

oh, yeah! That was a horrible one, wasn't it?

Thunderpussy

Slightly off topic But,..........................
watching DAF last week on itv, they cut the scene where Bond used a ladies Bikini top to throttle some info out of her. ( not to upset the kiddies ). then this week with YOLT, they showed a lady being eaten by Piranha ?. Can kids really get that heartless in a week. )

Hardyboy

Sounds like the UK is following US censorship rules now and keeping the half-second glimpse of nipple out of sight. Remember what they say about American entertainment? You can't show a man kissing a woman's breast, but you can show him shooting her in the breast.

ke02eww

Hardyboy wrote:

Sounds like the UK is following US censorship rules now and keeping the half-second glimpse of nipple out of sight. Remember what they say about American entertainment? You can't show a man kissing a woman's breast, but you can show him shooting her in the breast.

Was mrs whitehouse a yank?.....

The sc bikini scene has caused a lot of angst over the years...I doubt this was the first time it's been cut.... In fact I think it's never been shown on uk tv ....would love to know the fact....

And regarding us tv.... Like most censorship it's "inconsistent" the world over.... The us is no different.... In fact Im enjoying a rerun of battlestar galactica at the momet, where everyone expletes FRAG and FRAGGING hell almost every sentence... Quite funny watching Jamie bamber (about as English as they come) FRAG ....

So even in the land of (expletive) free, where there's a FRAG there's a way.. 8-)

GaddGeneGadd

Since we are on the U.S. censorship topic I have a non Bond one. When TBS showed a rebroadcast of "Kill Bill" there was a scene that went " If you should come across God or Lord Buddha himself " And the censors cut the " Lord Buddha " part. I only mention this in a Bond forum because QT has often said he would like to direct a Bond film. That would be one good Bond film imho B-) B-) B-)

Blackleiter

I know there are those who prefer that QT stay as far away from Bond as possible, but Tarantino is such a student of film that I think he could actually pull off an entertaining Bond film. I believe he would respect the conventions and include many of the things fans have come to expect and love about the cinematic version of 007. Plus he writes some pretty crackling dialogue. It will probably never happen, but I believe it would be an interesting experiment.

GaddGeneGadd wrote:

Since we are on the U.S. censorship topic I have a non Bond one. When TBS showed a rebroadcast of "Kill Bill" there was a scene that went " If you should come across God or Lord Buddha himself " And the censors cut the " Lord Buddha " part. I only mention this in a Bond forum because QT has often said he would like to direct a Bond film. That would be one good Bond film imho B-) B-) B-)

zaphod

Blackleiter wrote:

I know there are those who prefer that QT stay as far away from Bond as possible, but Tarantino is such a student of film that I think he could actually pull off an entertaining Bond film. I believe he would respect the conventions and include many of the things fans have come to expect and love about the cinematic version of 007. Plus he writes some pretty crackling dialogue. It will probably never happen, but I believe it would be an interesting experiment.

GaddGeneGadd wrote:

Since we are on the U.S. censorship topic I have a non Bond one. When TBS showed a rebroadcast of "Kill Bill" there was a scene that went " If you should come across God or Lord Buddha himself " And the censors cut the " Lord Buddha " part. I only mention this in a Bond forum because QT has often said he would like to direct a Bond film. That would be one good Bond film imho B-) B-) B-)

Perhaps later? For the time being until Mendes delivers most of us have had enough of Auter's

Blackleiter

I agree that now is not the time, but perhaps with a new Bond after Craig's tenure ends (although I think Tarantino and Craig could be a potent combination).

zaphod wrote:

Blackleiter wrote:

I know there are those who prefer that QT stay as far away from Bond as possible, but Tarantino is such a student of film that I think he could actually pull off an entertaining Bond film. I believe he would respect the conventions and include many of the things fans have come to expect and love about the cinematic version of 007. Plus he writes some pretty crackling dialogue. It will probably never happen, but I believe it would be an interesting experiment.

GaddGeneGadd wrote:

Since we are on the U.S. censorship topic I have a non Bond one. When TBS showed a rebroadcast of "Kill Bill" there was a scene that went " If you should come across God or Lord Buddha himself " And the censors cut the " Lord Buddha " part. I only mention this in a Bond forum because QT has often said he would like to direct a Bond film. That would be one good Bond film imho B-) B-) B-)

Perhaps later? For the time being until Mendes delivers most of us have had enough of Auter's

Tobias

I remember when DAF came on tv once here in the UK and FYEO as well they cut scenes like the opening of DAF with the scalpels being thrown into Blofelds guard and the finger clamp crushing the other guards fingers and Marie's bikini strangerling too

chrisisall

As an amateur film maker myself, the rule of thumb for movies like this is to show the most shocking bit of violence up front, then the threat looms throughout the film until the end, where the climax either exceeds the bit at the front, or takes an unexpected twist away, but LTK had just too much of it sprinkled throughout IMO. It was clearly pushing the envelope for envelope pushing's sake. Some selected editing in the film's mid section could do wonders for this movie.

GordoLeiter

Felix being fed to sharks and Dario being grinded up to mulch is no different than the past "gory" scenes in the Bond film, people were saying the same things about Dr.Kananga's body explosion in LALD

chrisisall

GordoLeiter wrote:

Felix being fed to sharks and Dario being grinded up to mulch is no different than the past "gory" scenes in the Bond film, people were saying the same things about Dr.Kananga's body explosion in LALD

LOL, that was a balloon that popped with little or no blood visible, plus his body should have just risen to the top of the water & splattered on the surface, not flown up to the ceiling to burst. It was a Road Runner cartoon death.
Look, I'm not saying there shouldn't have been a grizzly moment or two, just that it seems they felt obliged to keep as much of what they filmed of it as possible to 'push'.
Gotta let the editor do his or her job is all. -{

BIG TAM

I don't have a problem with the violence of LICENCE TO KILL. This film seemed destined to be used as scapegoat back in '89. Thankfully such fears seem to have evaporated now the uncut version's readily available on DVD.
Is Felix Leiter being fed to a shark really any nastier than Largo cutting Palazzi's airline in THUNDERBALL, Vijay's slicing in OCTOPUSSY or Klotkoff's chopping up in A VIEW TO A KILL? The Bonds have always revelled in sadism of one sort or another. It's part of the genre.

Thunderpussy

I always thought with the Bonds it was a very quick way for
the Villain to show how Brutal he really was, by giving a minion
a really horrible Death.
Both FYEO and LTK I think had very well filmed Shark attacks.
I remember being amazed at seeing the shark move in on still
kicking legs. :007)

CmdrAtticus

Though dismayed by how the producers kept veering from the dark tone of the novels to the winking camp of the films in LTK, I actually enjoyed seeing them going more violent to show the brutality of Bond's job. I was looking forward to another Dalton after that, thinking they were going to continue getting closer to the spirit of the novels. It's strange how light the films became compared to the books. There are so many scenes of brutality and ugliness in books, which I know Fleming kept in to keep them real since the villains and or plots became over the top events (robbing Fort Knox). I realize they did this not only because of the censors at the time but also because they needed to bring in a wide enough age range at the box office to insure healthy profits. This is the difference between films made as an authentic artistic effort over merchandising profitability. After Goldfinger and the explosion of selling Bond, I knew then that it would be ages before they would go close to the naked brutality and sadism of the books.

chrisisall

CmdrAtticus wrote:

After Goldfinger and the explosion of selling Bond, I knew then that it would be ages before they would go close to the naked brutality and sadism of the books.

When one hasn't read them in a while, one forgets the level of not-nice the novels contained.

CmdrAtticus

chrisisall wrote:

CmdrAtticus wrote:

After Goldfinger and the explosion of selling Bond, I knew then that it would be ages before they would go close to the naked brutality and sadism of the books.

When one hasn't read them in a while, one forgets the level of not-nice the novels contained.

Exactly that. People make noises about the brutality of the Felix shark scene, but
that's what Fleming wrote. The key hauling scene with Moore was even toned down in FYEO, but at least they put it in. He's bitten by the barracuda, almost stomped to death in DAF, face scorched by blowtorch in Moonraker, finger broken in LAD. Even then the producers toned it down so Moore left unscathed. Now, we can easily see Craig getting these damages. They CAN do it and still maintain the lightness, as they did with the way Craig quipped at Mikkelsen in the CR torture scene. I was shocked they were actually showing it on first viewing, then delighted they put in the dialogue to show Bond keeping his dark wit through it. As long as they keep the sardonic humor in, they can get away with a lot in the future.

Tobias

I think LTK followed Die Hard and Lethal Weapon back at the time but it was the late 80's