how did Brosnan's tenure lead to such dross as Die Another Die?

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  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    Nope! A View To A Kill has yet to be displaced as the worst Bond film.
    SilentSpy wrote:
    Die Another Day was on TV last night. Although, I still can't watch the full movie even when the broadcast itself is cut. The movie is fun when viewed as a comedy. All of the punchlines are cool. The Jaguar vs Aston Martin is still awesome. As anyone who has ever played around with cars in the snow would probably do many of the same slides and stuff without the weapons. I still will never buy Die Another Day (or Quantum of Solace) except as part of a box set. But I'm leaning to thinking that it is now better than Quantum of Solace (which was also on this weekend). Main reason being is that I can watch Die Another Day up to the big plane battle. However, I stop watching Quantum of Solace usually after the opera scene. And that is just to hear the music during the scene. So, Quantum of Solace holds the worst Bond movie spot.
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • 7700777007 Posts: 502MI6 Agent
    Nope! A View To A Kill has yet to be displaced as the worst Bond film.
    Co-signed. ~
  • welshboy78welshboy78 Posts: 10,320MI6 Agent
    Surely the mighty Duran Duran theme tune is worthy enough to lift it above Die Another Day
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  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Well, I like AVTAK but it's the kicking post for many a Bond fan, dunno why. Works for me.

    DAD was when Bond jumped the shark, or nuked the fridge. Actually what would the phrase be for the Bond tenure?

    I don't think Craig should be allowed to utter a one liner ever again. It's not him, nor should it be. None of us go around uttering one liners in our day to day dialogue, and Craig should be based on realism. Okay, he could do the one liners of Dr No, like 'Driver, make sure he doesn't get away...'
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    Nope! As bad as the DAD theme was (and I don't think it was as bad as many others do), and despite the fact that the Duran Duran theme was pretty nifty, that alone will never atone for the tired, boring, cringe-worthy mess that was AVTAK!
    welshboy78 wrote:
    Surely the mighty Duran Duran theme tune is worthy enough to lift it above Die Another Day
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • CmdrAtticusCmdrAtticus United StatesPosts: 1,102MI6 Agent
    It wasn't Brosnan's tenure - it was the fault of the writers and the producers. The actors only have to deliver believeable performances. I can't fault them for having to speak bad dialogue (thank you George Lucas) or being forced to act with misplaced or inadequate effects. If they are really good actors, they can sometimes overcome the bad dialogue and scenes. I was shocked to see Alec Guiness in Star Wars, yet they needed him in order to sell those lines, and he did - that's why top notch actors like him get the big $$$.

    Personally, I wish the producers would knock off with the CGI. I'm sick of it. I want to see a real spy in the real world in extraordinary circumstances, not Avatar! I'm not just speaking of the unrealistic action scenes either. Thrilling as they sometimes are, if they are just that - stunts for the sake of thrilling the audience and not really intrical to the plot - LEAVE THEM OUT. Especially when they are of the Wiley Coyote variety (Bond defies the laws of physics and is never injured). Okay, so Brosnan hurt his shoulder in TWINE. It bothered him for what..five minutes? In reality he would have had that in a sling for a LONG time. The writers think - okay, we'll have him injured from the hard landing after a fall for five minutes to show he's real. Well....no. Let him fall into the d*#mn Thames and just get wet. "But we have to have the scene with the sexy doctor". Fine. You can still have it..he has to be checked out to be fit for duty. See? It's not really that hard to do. Did his car HAVE to be invisible? Really? Why? Those scenes could easily have been written so it didn't have to be. All this boils down to is "boys with toys". "Hey, we could put Bond in an invisible car! We can give Bond a pair of levitating shoes!" That's the problem of writing a film by committee, with people throwing in their suggestions every day. The producers or someone HAS to stick their nose in and say, "but it would be GREAT if he had levitating shoes!".

    Thank got they rebooted and went back to reality. Check that. They still want to thrown in future technology that will look dated in ten years. Craig getting his wrist implant scan in CR is an example. Every time I see this crap I want to yell out STAR TREK!! STAR TREK!! It's thrown in even in the new films. MI6 headquarters looks like it got fitted out by the engineers who worked on the Enterprise. The interactive flat screens, auto sliding doors (beam me up Scotty), minimilists furniture. Stop it....just STOP IT. I thought they were going to junk this crap after TWINE with the STAR WARS 3D image of the villains head floating in the air in the castle meeting scene. I kept thinking an R2 unit was going to come rolling in to M and throw a 3D image of Q explaning how Bond must protect the R2 unit and get it to the rebel forces!

    In the real world, the technology is about on the level of the Bourne films. They can track people with satellites and surveillance cams and cell phones, etc. The Bond films should never go past that. Sure, they can show SOME experimental tech, but only if it remains that - not something Bond will be issued or M uses in the office. Even though they use dial phones in the old movies and the highest tech is Connery using his car phone in his Bentley in FRWL, they were at least real technology at the time. Dated, sure, but it was real stuff. Not magnetic fields or powerful lasers coming out of a wrist watch like the crap they did later. Why do they have to do it? Why? I hope they will leave out the sci-fi junk out of the next one, but I know they just can't. It's like junk food to them. I know, some fans LIKE the cutting edge technology. Sometimes, yes. The laser in GF was fine. The circular saw blade cinematically would have smacked of Snidley Whiplash (though fans of the SAW films today would have preferred it!). It made sense in the story - the villain used it in his factory as part of the processing. Invisible cars? Thats just fluff and nonsense and worst, it turns a Bond film into an Austin Powers film or a Get Smart remake.
  • welshboy78welshboy78 Posts: 10,320MI6 Agent
    Interesting points made there mate.

    Yes that was indeed a disappointment for me when I saw Mi6 using that touchscreen crap ala Minority Report in QoS.

    I cannot for the life of me remember when I was last impressed by a piece of CGI - Avatar looked pretty but didn't make my jaw drop. Star Wars actually looks better with the puppets in my opinion as for the prequels...well they just look like Cartoons and unbelievable fake.

    Ha - the penny has just dropped!! Here it is, the first time (and maybe only time) I have been mesmerised by CGI was when I first saw Gollum in Lord of The Rings. I remember wondering why Lucas with all his resources couldn't pull off that kind of quality. Of course now it prob dated (have not gone back to LOTR since the cinema releases)

    Im sure it will come full circle and it will be cool to pull off stunts and characters without CGI someday. Action films are so stale nowadays with them full of the stuff and there is no Wow factor to it anymore
    Instagram - bondclothes007
  • 7700777007 Posts: 502MI6 Agent
    At least the gadgets are in moderation. An arm implant here, the Aston glove box, touch screens there. But I'm in no hurry to see Q or anything those scenes imply. I think so far they've reeled the gadgets back down to an acceptable level. I'd rather Mi6 look like Star Trek, than Bond using something to save the day with out in the field.
  • welshboy78welshboy78 Posts: 10,320MI6 Agent
    77007 wrote:
    At least the gadgets are in moderation. An arm implant here, the Aston glove box, touch screens there. But I'm in no hurry to see Q or anything those scenes imply. I think so far they've reeled the gadgets back down to an acceptable level. I'd rather Mi6 look Star Trek than Bond using something to save the day with out in the field.

    True - your dead right! Keep John Cleese away please lol
    Instagram - bondclothes007
  • SilentSpySilentSpy Private Exotic AreaPosts: 765MI6 Agent
    Well, I like AVTAK but it's the kicking post for many a Bond fan, dunno why. Works for me.

    For some reason A View to a Kill is always getting knocked. I believe Roger Moore thinks it's his worst one. However, I still like it. It probably helps that I remember seeing this one in theaters. It's a fun Moore Bond film. The title song and score is awesome. The opening ski scene is cool. The ice boat with the pretty blonde girl. Hot tub with hot Russian girl. Beautiful settings. The opening text about how Zorin is not a real person since he's going to do some wild stuff. Christopher Walken's performance. Tanya Roberts. I love her introduction scene. The blue dress and her blue eyes really pop in that scene. The movie is far from the worst Moore Bond film.
    "Better late than never."
  • welshboy78welshboy78 Posts: 10,320MI6 Agent
    Must admit I have a soft spot for a View To A Kill, I was a little kiddie at the time and loved it.

    I might have to visit the rate your bond film section to stick up for it a little as I'm sure I could name 4-5 others below it!
    Instagram - bondclothes007
  • KissyLoverKissyLover AustraliaPosts: 139MI6 Agent
    Hardyboy wrote:
    Die Another Day was planned as a celebration--the producers knew it would be a 40th anniversary film and so they decided to fill the movie with references and nods to all the previous films, and they were deliberately trying to make a modern-day Bond epic like The Spy Who Loved Me. The result is a grab-bag film--in my opinion, some of it works, some doesn't--and it wasn't designed to build on what came before or signal any kind of new direction in the series. It's just a one-off, and should be taken for what it is.


    Yes, the best way to view this one.

    Some of it worked (the Aston looking "hot" / Jinx's ass in leather) and some of it didn't (worse CGI in a movie EVER). Still part of the JB franchise though so it will stay in the collection, and if I watch it I'll jump to my fav bits ... ;)
  • Andy007Andy007 Posts: 100MI6 Agent
    For a 'modern day' The Spy who loved Me - it's atrocious. The only celebration is 4 years later when 'Casino Royale' reinvents the Bond series & puts the misery of Die Another Day behind us!
  • Andy007Andy007 Posts: 100MI6 Agent
    I'd find it hard to believe that Brosnan had much input into any of his films. When he took over the role, he said he wanted to explore the dark side of Bond -which is strange since Dalton had done that already (certainly in LTK -he gave Bond a dark edge). Yet Brosnan's films lack substance, almost like it's all for show. Even Goldeneye for example (a gritty mid 90's Bond film) a good film in many respects, but still has to overdo it with the motorbike jump into plane. I would honestly say apart from the scene with Bond and Natalya on the beach and TND with Bond drinking before Paris turns up-there's hardly any emotional involvement in his 007. It's quite generic & stylish, unlike Dalton, Craig & Connery who bring real depth to the role.
  • mediapigmediapig Los AngelesPosts: 87MI6 Agent
    Some mentioned LTK as the worst Bond film... oddly enough, when I fist saw the Dalton films in the theater, I loved TLD, and disliked LTK. However, as the films have aged, I think LTK has emerged as a much better film. TLD feels bland, contrived, and very flat to me, while LTK actually engages me much more in Bond's character. Just my opinion.
  • SilentSpySilentSpy Private Exotic AreaPosts: 765MI6 Agent
    Andy007 wrote:
    I'd find it hard to believe that Brosnan had much input into any of his films. When he took over the role, he said he wanted to explore the dark side of Bond -which is strange since Dalton had done that already (certainly in LTK -he gave Bond a dark edge). Yet Brosnan's films lack substance, almost like it's all for show. Even Goldeneye for example (a gritty mid 90's Bond film) a good film in many respects, but still has to overdo it with the motorbike jump into plane. I would honestly say apart from the scene with Bond and Natalya on the beach and TND with Bond drinking before Paris turns up-there's hardly any emotional involvement in his 007. It's quite generic & stylish, unlike Dalton, Craig & Connery who bring real depth to the role.

    It's funny you mention that Brosnan's 007 has hardly any emotional involvement when all of his Bond films are personal. They have one of two really good scenes and the rest all action. In fact, Bond films have been personal since LTK. That's the one thing I hope changes with the next one. With the exception of maybe Goldfinger, all of Connery's Bond films were simple missions.
    "Better late than never."
  • HalconHalcon Zen TemplePosts: 487MI6 Agent
    oh come on!
    it wasnt that bad!

    DAD is actually a great film guys... sometimes you have to take the individual parts (as someone else already pointed out) to appreciate it as a Bond film...for example -

    -the beginning was pretty good what with the surfing and the watch setting off a bomb

    - the intro was great, loved the females as fire and the dancing fit the madonna song very nicely

    -the escape from MI6 boat and subsequent hitchhiking onto the chinese yacht was pure Bond (the transformation from caveman back to Bond was also very cool, i thought it underlinded the character's developed taste for sophistication)

    - Bond's clothes were fantastic- he now wears a very sleek two button (rather than the clumsy three button from TWINE) and his summer suit he wears in Cuba convinced me to go get one myself. as a matter of fact Both Bond and the villian sport great ensembles when they meet in London.

    -Miranda Frost!! and Halle Berry!! holy cow Halle herself more than makes up for any 'dissapointments' in the film

    -the car battle on ice scene was fabulous ( i dont think that had been done before..could be wrong)Yao villian was pretty good too.

    i enjoyed the film very much and i find myself going back to it often (at least these bits of the film). AVTAK in my opinion is a hard watch (save the that gorgeous chick from beastmaster)
  • BlackleiterBlackleiter Washington, DCPosts: 5,615MI6 Agent
    I actually agree with a lot of what you said. I thought the final 3rd of the DAD was pretty weak and the invisible car was a bit too much for me, but there were a number of very enjoyable aspects of the film (hell, I didn't even mind the Madonna title tune that much!) One thing for sure - I'd watch DAD over AVTAK any day!
    Halcon wrote:
    oh come on!
    it wasnt that bad!

    DAD is actually a great film guys... sometimes you have to take the individual parts (as someone else already pointed out) to appreciate it as a Bond film...for example -

    -the beginning was pretty good what with the surfing and the watch setting off a bomb

    - the intro was great, loved the females as fire and the dancing fit the madonna song very nicely

    -the escape from MI6 boat and subsequent hitchhiking onto the chinese yacht was pure Bond (the transformation from caveman back to Bond was also very cool, i thought it underlinded the character's developed taste for sophistication)

    - Bond's clothes were fantastic- he now wears a very sleek two button (rather than the clumsy three button from TWINE) and his summer suit he wears in Cuba convinced me to go get one myself. as a matter of fact Both Bond and the villian sport great ensembles when they meet in London.

    -Miranda Frost!! and Halle Berry!! holy cow Halle herself more than makes up for any 'dissapointments' in the film

    -the car battle on ice scene was fabulous ( i dont think that had been done before..could be wrong)Yao villian was pretty good too.

    i enjoyed the film very much and i find myself going back to it often (at least these bits of the film). AVTAK in my opinion is a hard watch (save the that gorgeous chick from beastmaster)
    "Felix Leiter, a brother from Langley."
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Funnily enough, I saw 20 mins of it last night on telly and enjoyed it a lot! It was from the laser fight with Kil to the rescue of Jinx from her watery tomb.

    The colour or cinemtography is vibrant and lovely on the small screen, but gives you eyestrain in the cinema; it's way too garish.

    I could hear the dialogue better, in the cinema I strained to hear it. No, it wasn't that I've got bad hearing and I could turn the volume up. It seems distorted in the cinema.

    Brosnan looks great in these scenes, actually quite young and lean. Quite boyish.

    You are more detatched when watching it, you don't take it seriously.

    But of course, that's the main problem; in the rushes DAD probably looked great, it's when you string it together it just doesn't work, the horrible serious beginning segueing into a very silly film. It's also a very busy film with no let up, it becomes stressful after a while. The scene were Jinx lasers off Kil's hand to use it to gain entry is meant to be funny but a bit horrible, especially if you recall the ending of the Stephen King thriller The Dead Zone. She just seems to have this nasty streak to her actually.

    And the scene where Bond paraglides through the ice, again total pants, jeez. Though I enjoyed it when it occurs in Happy Feet, along with a duplicate of the dogfight scene from the pts of TND! :D
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • GrindelwaldGrindelwald Posts: 1,341MI6 Agent
    Golden Gun was the worst imo.

    I prefer Stacey over Jinx and Frost (none of them are really well written though....but if I had to choose)

    TLD had the better plot , Sanchez was a much better villain though......very underrated villain.
  • Oddjob25Oddjob25 Posts: 10MI6 Agent
    I love how I can just look right past crazy absurd scenes and ENJOY THEM unlike most of these forum goers.

    DIE ANOTHER DAY is the 4th best Bond Film. Intro is amazing with hovercrafts and the demilitarized zone. Classic Bond Movie Action.

    GOLDENEYE the best Bond film by far!!!

    TWINE 9th best.

    TND 3rd Worst Bond Film. Weak villains. No scene stood out in the movie.

    TOP 5 Least Favorite Bond Films:
    19. OHMSS
    20. License to Kill
    21. Tomorrow Never Dies
    22. The Man with the Golden Gun
    23. Quantum of Solace
  • Napoleon PluralNapoleon Plural LondonPosts: 10,467MI6 Agent
    Okay, but why do you hate TND? Doesn't seem so off the mark for a Brosnan film. And why OHMSS?
    "This is where we leave you Mr Bond."

    Roger Moore 1927-2017
  • Oddjob25Oddjob25 Posts: 10MI6 Agent
    I felt that GE, TWINE and DAD were action packed. Goldeneye is my 10th favorite movie of all time. I can rewatch and quote it as much as any movie. Goldeneye also has my favorite precredit sequence. Xenia is my favorite femme fatale by far. Even Trevelyan is my favorite villain. Die Another Day has my 2nd favorite precredit sequence. Zao and Orumov are top 5 henchmen. Halle Berry check please. TND on the other hand has no great standout scenes for me. Although it has my 6th favorite precredit intro, TND has my 2nd least favorite Villain in Elliot Carver. Only Mr. Green is worse.

    Connery only has 2 Bond films in my top 11. Goldfinger and Dr No. Although his 5 others are all between 12 and 17th (none in the bottom 6). Dont know why everyone hates on Brosnan and the new ones. Of the 6 Bonds from the 90s and 00's. Four of them are in my top 9. TND and Quantum are in my bottom 3.
  • GoldenEye85GoldenEye85 Posts: 278MI6 Agent
    The only problems I had with Die Another Day was the theme, I think it is the single most annoying song ever in the franchise and the other is too many references of being the 20th film and the 40th anniversary. Some of them a okay like the room filled with the old gadgets and even Rs (I refuse to call Cleese Q) line about the watch. Great action, the sword fight was killer. The chase scene at the beginning was great. I liked the whole back story of Bond being betrayed, wondering who it is up until it's revealed. The chase on the ice was good.

    I like all four Brosnan films but TND would be last on the list, it had some good action, the motorcycle chase through China and in Hamburg in the parking garage. The villain wasn't bad, but the actor wasn't great. Neither Bond girl was outstanding, which I found interesting since it's sandwiched in between two Bond films that have great Bond girls. Ironically, TND's theme song is one of my most favorites of the franchise.

    My Brosnan list goes:

    GoldenEye
    The World is Not Enough
    Die Another Day
    Tomorrow Never Dies
    1, GE 2, CR 3, SF 4, TWINE 5, Spectre 6, TMWTGG 7, DAD 8, LALD 9, AVTAK 10, LTK 11, Octopussy 12, Moonraker 13, TLD 14, GF 15, QOS 16, Tomorrow 17, FYEO 18. TSWLM Not seen much: Dr. No, Russia, Thunderball, Twice, Majesty.

    1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
  • GordoLeiterGordoLeiter Posts: 462MI6 Agent
    I think its safe to say that all the Bond eras had a bad film in it, so far here is what most fans consider to be the worst in each era, or at least from what ive heard :

    Connery/Lazenby - You Only Live Twice, Thunderball, OHMSS
    Moore - Moonraker, A View to a Kill, Man With The Golden Gun
    Dalton - Licence To Kill
    Brosnan - Die Another Day
  • Moore ThanMoore Than EnglandPosts: 3,173MI6 Agent
    I think its safe to say that all the Bond eras had a bad film in it, so far here is what most fans consider to be the worst in each era, or at least from what ive heard :

    Connery/Lazenby - You Only Live Twice, Thunderball, OHMSS
    Moore - Moonraker, A View to a Kill, Man With The Golden Gun
    Dalton - Licence To Kill
    Brosnan - Die Another Day

    I think you are right regards Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton and Pierce Brosnan's films though I would add Tomorrow Never Dies as that is generally not well received. Regards Connery/Lazenby. I would substitute Thunderball for Diamonds Are Forever and Never Say Never Again (if you choose to include it). Thunderball, though slow and plodding at times, is generally not regarded as one of the weaker films. On Her Majesty's Secret Service is rather popular amongst Bond fans in the forums though it is not one of my favourite's.

    And since you did not mention Daniel Craig I will add Quantum of Solace. :D
    Moore Not Less 4371 posts (2002 - 2007) Moore Than (2012 - 2016)
  • GoldenEye85GoldenEye85 Posts: 278MI6 Agent
    Seriously, why all the hate for The Man with the Golden Gun. It's great, the only part that drags it down for me is J.W. Pepper and that's not enough to make it completely worthless.
    1, GE 2, CR 3, SF 4, TWINE 5, Spectre 6, TMWTGG 7, DAD 8, LALD 9, AVTAK 10, LTK 11, Octopussy 12, Moonraker 13, TLD 14, GF 15, QOS 16, Tomorrow 17, FYEO 18. TSWLM Not seen much: Dr. No, Russia, Thunderball, Twice, Majesty.

    1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
  • GordoLeiterGordoLeiter Posts: 462MI6 Agent
    I kinda find it also wierd that Roger Moore's era is considerd by many to be the worst 007 ear ever, yet 2 of the henchmen from that era ended up becoming the most popular ones out of the entire franchise (Jaws and Nick Nack).
    Moore Than wrote:
    I think its safe to say that all the Bond eras had a bad film in it, so far here is what most fans consider to be the worst in each era, or at least from what ive heard :

    Connery/Lazenby - You Only Live Twice, Thunderball, OHMSS
    Moore - Moonraker, A View to a Kill, Man With The Golden Gun
    Dalton - Licence To Kill
    Brosnan - Die Another Day

    I think you are right regards Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton and Pierce Brosnan's films though I would add Tomorrow Never Dies as that is generally not well received. Regards Connery/Lazenby. I would substitute Thunderball for Diamonds Are Forever and Never Say Never Again (if you choose to include it). Thunderball, though slow and plodding at times, is generally not regarded as one of the weaker films. On Her Majesty's Secret Service is rather popular amongst Bond fans in the forums though it is not one of my favourite's.

    And since you did not mention Daniel Craig I will add Quantum of Solace. :D

    Daniel Craig isnt that bad actually i kinda like the more action oriented Bond, he's very remnant of Dalton in some ways.
  • PeppermillPeppermill DelftPosts: 2,860MI6 Agent
    I kinda find it also wierd that Roger Moore's era is considerd by many to be the worst 007 ear ever, yet 2 of the henchmen from that era ended up becoming the most popular ones out of the entire franchise (Jaws and Nick Nack).

    Everyone has his/her own opinion about Sir Roger, but the fact is that he kept Bond going for 7 movies over 12 years. He made it possible for us to be talking about Skyfall.
    1. Ohmss 2. Frwl 3. Op 4. Tswlm 5. Tld 6. Ge 7. Yolt 8. Lald 9. Cr 10. Ltk 11. Dn 12. Gf 13. Qos 14. Mr 15. Tmwtgg 16. Fyeo 17. Twine 18. Sf 19. Tb 20 Tnd 21. Spectre 22 Daf 23. Avtak 24. Dad
  • GoldenEye85GoldenEye85 Posts: 278MI6 Agent
    I've always felt Roger Moore was a very good 007. I liked that he was nudging the franchise away from the film being solely about the performance and less action like in many of the Connery films including, as much as I like the movie, Goldfinger is one of them. One gun fight in the entire movie, a good one, but still only one and Bond isn't even involved in it, he's chained to the bomb in the vault. Moore still kept the performance, but brought in more action and more humor to the role.
    1, GE 2, CR 3, SF 4, TWINE 5, Spectre 6, TMWTGG 7, DAD 8, LALD 9, AVTAK 10, LTK 11, Octopussy 12, Moonraker 13, TLD 14, GF 15, QOS 16, Tomorrow 17, FYEO 18. TSWLM Not seen much: Dr. No, Russia, Thunderball, Twice, Majesty.

    1: Brosnan 2: Craig 3: Moore 4: Dalton 5: Connery and 6: Lazenby
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