Reflections in a golden Pie crust

Thunderpussy

Lately I've been thinking that it's somewhat unfair to compare/ contrast the New Rebooted series of Bonds
with the older more traditional ones.
Back in the 60's the Producers took some aspects of Bond personality and went on to make a successful series
of action thrillers sticking to a strict formula. I think it was Sir Roger himself who said that the Bonds were bedtime
stories for adults and like kids we didn't want any changes made to them.
Then came the big change.
With Casino Royale, the producers took some different aspects from Bonds character. Making him colder more of a
hitman.
This part of the reboot I find interesting in that This is Bond's first mission as a OO, Yet he already seems jaded, tired.
Now Bond did get jaded depressed even in some of the later novels but only after some brainwashing etc, even having
to get medical help to function again.
With Skyfall we see Bond in a Beard leading to many ideas like has Bond been through something that was so harrowing
he needed time off. Which seems a likely observation. Although how far would the Fans like it to go, Does anyone want
to see Bond mentaly Broken down and sent on a mission as he's expendable as in Golden Gun.
Casino Royale I thought was very Good a little too long ( could of cut around 20 mins ) but it did introduce us to the new Bond.
Now at this point I was very happy, Bond back a little harder edge, things where looking up.
Then came Quantum of Solace.
QOS isin't a bad film, frantic editing and various other problems ( we've argued over for years ) But is is a very weak outing
for a follow on movie. It has a few good points but sadly it has One scene which, Upset me when I first watch it. The Death of Mathis.
As a bit of background I've been a Bond fan since I was 11 or 12 and I'll soon be 48, seen all the films and read all the books.
So seeing Bond dump the body of a friend into a skip was, Jarring to say the least.
Buy I'll forgive them as there was a writers strike and the Director and D Craig worked on the script as best they could so I'll go along with this not being a finished scene when it had to be filmed but think that with just a few little touches it could of been less of a shock.
If they had Bond laying Mathis in the skip and as he takes his money said Mathis's line form CR
"Just because you're dead, doesn't mean you can't be useful" then looking at Olga, " An old friend taught me that "
Just my opinion but I feel this would off linked better with CR and been a little more poignant .
I liked at the news conference for Skyfall they name checked Casino Royale many times and they seem to have got most of the crew from that movie back. I think giving the director so much control as with QOS was a mistake, I hope with Mendes the producers have sometimes flexed their control ( if needed ) over the production.
At least the scripts seem to be getting a boost with story becoming an important driving force the formula having been dropped
Hopefuly leading to the action flowing from the story and not simply shoehorned in because it's been 30 mins and we have to have a chase sequence.
So even though QOS wasn't a strong second movie, I have my fingers crossed for Skyfall. Hopefully with some decent scripts we'll get another 50 years out of them. Although how Human would you like to see Bond. I do feel he shouldn't be made too "Normal" like the rest of us and I'd like to see him lose some of the Darkness the writers are surrounding him in, Lighten up a bit. Sadly from the trailer for Skyfall this might not be the movie to do it But I'm hoping it might be a start.

thesecretagent

I think things have just been done too much. It's hard to come up with fresh scenarios for Bond, and with every development of the character comes an earlier contradiction. The audience has largely changed and expect movie Bond to travel a certain path. It's like they push the character forwards, then have to pull him back as a nod to the past, both cinematic and literary.
For me QOS was ok. It suffered from poor script, and the villain was simply laughable. I don't rate it much past halfway in the series, whereas Casino Royale is near the top. I hope Skyfall will put the franchise back on track.

On a side note, I watched Safehouse last night and it was entertaining. However, it was CIA cliche rich, and I could see what was going to happen way ahead. It was also full of CIA crap like "He's off the reservation... Black -ops... Used to do wet-work" etc etc just laughable, but simply a matter of we've seen and heard this all before. Bond is up against this sort of thing not only within its own series, but this sort of genre in general. Maybe the series has gone too far, and will never feel original anymore...

Thunderpussy

I watched safehouse when it first came out and found it enjoyable enough, a kind of Older Bourne.

I think the Producers felt the need to change the format with Bond, they could of continued and probabley made
proffitable movies, but perhaps they where getting a little stale, Hence the BIG change.
It was probabley a bit much for some Older fans ( especially me ) ), and mabey not as big a shot in the arm
was needed but we have what we have. Although I do agree that the J Bourne type thriller with all it's CIA type
dialogue is now getting a little stale and borning too.
I thought with QOS they where getting a bit "American" if that's not too insulting, I just mean Bond with M in
the new hi-tec offices etc seemed more suited to an american film rather then the standard office looking out
onto a london street. Luckily with the trailer for Skyfall this seemes to of been adressed, with Bond back as
clearly Brirish.
I've watched QOS several times and I have mellowed to it over time, Still think it's a very weak outing, and
do feel Greene was wasted as a Villian. It might not make sense ( Most of my posts don't ) but I think He had the
potential to be a really great villian. Once again I'll put that down to the writers strike etc.
It's the Dark/brooding Bond I hope they change, Just to lighten him up a little. I've read that with Skyfall they
have introduced some more humor, I do hope so. Not a joke every scene but simply a general feeling that Bond
is having some fun now and then.
The older series occasionaly went too far from time to time, YOLT, MR, DAD to be followed bt a more Down to
earth version like OHMSS, FYEO etc.
I feel with all the name checks CR got at the news conference that Everyone has taken on board the complaints,
criticisms of QOS and something of the quality of CR is on the cards.
The formula is gone and I feel they will be pushing what can be done with Bond in years to come. While I feel
this can be a good thing and means we will get a few suprises, as we won't be able to take for granted the
outcome of a situation.
As I stated before I think the scripts have been made more important and the story will be the driving force in
future outings. After all not all of Bond's missions have to be huge over the top spectaculars. I don't mind a bit
less action if we have well written scenes of peril or investigation etc.
Lastly I do hope, I really do hope they drop any and all Homages to Past Bond films. To me at least these are
starting to get as annoying as double taking pigeons.

Napoleon Plural

What's with the soft returns, TP?

Thing about QoS, I didn't really get that Mathis in the boot of the car was an ironic play on how he frames opponents in CR - because there had been so many references to other previous Bond films, almost on a par with DAD. So the cleverness I missed, and does Bond say "Doesn't mean he can't be useful" in it? Cos that does emphasise the point, in nicking his money.

In some ways, QoS aims cynically to show that the bad guys aren't too different from the good guys, a point made by Mathis at the end of the book CR. So we get M enthusing about torture, is it of Mr White, or what they did to Mathis. A bit stupid really, to torture him just on Bond's say so, when he was out of it at the end of CR, but that's just a stupid film anyway imo. I mean, ooh, he's poisoned Bond's drink! Get him taken away! But surely they'd run a test of Bond's drink and find it isn't poisoned, thus implying Bond is in a demented state. Plus Vesper's obvious disloyalty, when it comes to light, might put Mathis in the clear too. Anyway, the point is, our lot do torture just like their lot, so what's the difference?

Personally that issue would be better made and more appropriate to the war on radical Islam (they do suicide bombs on the innocent, we do drone bombing with innocents involved ie civilian damage) but that's too political.

So Bond chucking Mathis in the skip is in that vein, but would work better if Mathis were a more morally ambivalent character throughout, he didn't seem as I pictured him in the book at all, as a beardless, suave, shiny black haired slicked back, Frenchman. So I didn't personally feel much loss, cos he wasn't Mathis to me anyway, any more than Villiers was Villiers in CR.

Thunderpussy

I think I'm going through the male Menopause. )

Until you mentioned it NP, I'd never connected Mathis's body being dumped in Bond's car Boot
as a connection with his use of Bodies in CR. Suppose I'm a bit Thick.
I'm giving the benifit of the doubt to the Producers and will put alot of the Mistakes of QOS down to a rushed production and writers strike. But I honestly don't want to end up Bashing the film all over again. It's a very weak film and you do raise many plot holes and little niggling points.
I remember reading from an old refence Book that some reviewrs claimed it was hard to tell who was the good guy In Dr No as Bond used the very same tactics. And agree they're staying away from the whole radical Islam stories.
Imagine a new Moonraker were Drax is a Disfigured Terrorist, who infiltrates British and American Security only Not paid by the Commies ( From Fleming's time ), but by Al Qaeda, a mix of Moonraker and the Manchurian candidate.
The main Point I was trying to get out was, With Bond growing a beard for Skyfall. Most of us seem to think that this is a very
visual way of showing how Bond has undergone some traumatic even which has lead to him having time off or on sick leave. I was wondering how far Fans would be happy to see Bond Fall.
I know in the later Books Bond is very down/depressed and needs help to get back to active service. Now this will probably sound Bonkers But somehow reading this in a Book is very personal as ( I think a Book is a more one to one experience ) and it's almost like being let in on a secret. Whereas I would hate to see this Put on film, I don't want to see Bond Emotionally Broken, even if he does get cured in the end. So I was wondering how Far do fans think the Producers will Push the human emotion side of Bond.
As for Mathis, I liked him. It's a long time since I read any Fleming so Can't remember his discription, I think it's a shame they
killed him off, I'd liked to of seen more of him. Especially if the Keep Bond more around europe rather than America. Perhaps in todays world Bond would need a Eurpaean Friend Much more than an American One.

I'm sure I'll be back to my Bloody minded, beligerant ( But Brilliantly funny. " In my mind at least " ) self soon enough.

Number24

One of the best thread titles I have ever seen!